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Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"
CatholicApologetics.org ^ | 1985-1991 | Dr. Robert Schihl and Paul Flanagan

Posted on 02/06/2010 8:21:23 PM PST by Salvation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics


Apologetics without apology!


What does the Roman Catholic Church teach about ...? ... and why?

This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.

This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:

The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.

The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"

The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"

The Catholic Christian answers this question in three stages or levels corresponding to the three meanings the words "saved" and "salvation" have in the Bible. (These meanings are found in the previous section, "Salvation: A Biblical Portrait." )

Catholic Christians can respond that they have been saved. This acknowledges the first meaning of "saved" and "salvation" in scripture--Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved--He died, rose from the dead, saved them from sin.

2 Cor 5:17
So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

Catholic Christians can also respond that they are being saved. This acknowledges the second meaning "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the present experience, God's power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin.

1 Cor 15:2
Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Catholic Christians also respond that they will be saved, that they have hope and confidence that God will give them the grace of perseverance; that they will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ.

Rom 5:9
How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: apoologetics; catholic; catholiclist; salvation
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To: annalex

Sorry, wrong. School’s not till Monday.


51 posted on 02/06/2010 10:58:03 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Salvation
Sheol can be interpreted as another word for hell or Purgatory.

Don't confuse "has been interpreted" with "is the same as". Sheol is a Hebrew word with specific meanings, mainly that of the grave. Gehenna is the name of a specific place which had been a place of punishment for the nation of Isreal and had been a trash dump. The English word Hell comes from an Old Germanic-Anglo word helan, meaning "to conceal or cover"

Now just because some people want to translate Greek or Hebrew into something else like Hell or Purgatory, that doesn't mean it's correct. If you do some research you will see that there is much more to this then I have time to go into tonight.

Here is one good site to look at: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
52 posted on 02/06/2010 11:00:31 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc; Salvation; Petronski
You are saved through faith, NOT OF WORKS.

Meanwhile, in James:

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

The passage you quote from Ephesians says something other than what you proclaim: it is by the grace of God that we are saved, through faith in Christ: not by works of our own. Yet what of works that strengthen our faith, works that are done in the name of keeping the Commandments of our Lord and Savior? What would you characterize those as?

I submit that the works I mention are not those that we may boast of, as if it was because of us that they have merit: only by the grace of God do such works exhibit and deepen our faith in Christ.

After all, if we are to profess faith in the Lord, we must have faith in His teachings. To do so, we must do works that are good by the grace of God (spreading the Gospel, caring for the poor and downtrodden, loving thy neighbor, and so on), not good by the standard of men.

53 posted on 02/06/2010 11:07:36 PM PST by Ultra Sonic 007 (To view the FR@Alabama ping list, click on my profile!)
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To: Ultra Sonic 007

Only an unsaved person can “deny the Holy Ghost”. The Holy Ghost is what gives conviction of sin. An unsaved person will face this conviction at some point in their lives.

A saved person can “grieve” or “quench” the Holy Ghost by doing something that is sin or not responding to the Holy Ghost’s conviction for service, but they cannot lose the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. Many Christians are led astray through false teachers because of a lack of discernment through grieving or quenching the Holy Ghost, which is truly sad.


54 posted on 02/06/2010 11:08:46 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: doc1019
Nothing to work towards. I asked Jesus to be my saviour over 30 years ago, I have nothing to work toward. My salvation is assured

Wow, I guess the bible is obsolete in your life now. It sounds like you don't need it anymore. Cool beans.

55 posted on 02/06/2010 11:10:09 PM PST by 999replies (Thune/Rubio 2012)
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To: kingpins10
doing something that is sin or not responding to the Holy Ghost’s conviction for service doing something that is sin or not responding to the Holy Ghost’s conviction for service, but they cannot lose the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

Who then saves them despite the sin or the "not responding"?

What scripture do you have in support? I get the indwelling part, I am asking about the "saved person" part. Does he stay saved?

56 posted on 02/06/2010 11:19:00 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

I think you may be unintentionally separating the “indwelling” from being “saved”. Christ said that he would send the Holy Ghost (Comforter) to believers after his death and resurrection. Our good works or rituals have nothing to do with it. It is 100% by faith alone, since our works our “filthy rags” to God.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016:7&version=KJV

This page should answer your questions more fully. (With corresponding verses)


57 posted on 02/06/2010 11:27:39 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: annalex

Sorry, meant to add this link in the last post...

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t006.html


58 posted on 02/06/2010 11:28:52 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: annalex
Other than through the Eucharist, which indeed gives us an abundant assurance of salvation, which verse curiously no Protestant heretic will ever quote back to me, John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day

Well, I know you believe the Eucharist helps save you, but that again is something not supported by the Bible. As for being a "heretic", if you mean by that a person who doesn't buy into the UnBiblical theologies of the Catholic church, then yes that would be me. As for quoting back to you John 6:55, I'd be more than happy to, with a look at it's context. (I can do this one quick because I have this information saved. Then I'll go to bed. )

Read all of John Chapter 6.

Jesus preformed a miracle where thousands were fed bread. He then went away from the crowd. The crowd followed him, but not because they sought Christ as teacher or Savior, not because they knew he was the Christ, but because they wanted to get their stomachs full of bread.

Read the rebuke of Christ to them

John 6:25-26 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.,


It was then He began to teach that they were looking for a miracle that would fill their stomachs ( as did the nation of Israel in the desert) and not for His presence or teaching. They only wanted their temporal needs met.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Jesus laid out that salvation was by FAITH, and that Faith was a work of the Father Then then decided to put Christ to a test ...Give us PROOF. It was THEY that brought up the manna (bread) Not Christ.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Jesus clarified where salvation comes from;

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.


He was pointing out that the "bread from heaven " that kept their fathers only gave them physical life.. HE on the other hand was sent from the Father to give them eternal spiritual life.

They did not "get it" they were looking for REAL bread to give them physical life as had happened in the desert, they were looking for tangible bread like manna, just as they were looking for an earthly savior not a divine salvation.

John 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Jesus then patiently explained to them that His flesh is life for the world.. His crucified body was what was going to bring eternal life, not a temporal one.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you,That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


The entire message is on salvation by faith through believeing, not a message of salvation through physically eating. The listeners did not get it , they were hung up on another point.

John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?


Notice the focus of the crowd was not on Him being the BREAD or eating Him but that He said he came down from heaven ( a claim of divinity )

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.


Notice that physical eating is temporary. The Jews in the wilderness ate and they all died.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Now, if the diciples took actual bites out of Jesus, why aren't they still alive (physically)? Jesus here declares that the manna was a TYPE of Christ.. The manna gave physical life, His flesh is for the eternal life of men.

John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


Notice the clear language, "NOT as your fathers did eat." How did their fathers eat? By putting the manna in their mouth and chewing. That is not how we "eat" the Bread from Heaven. We "eat" this bread by believing.

Keep in mind that He had already taught at some length that He that believed on Him would be saved. He has already taught that the man that is taught by the Father comes to him and are saved. So to interpret this as other than a metaphor of being saved by His soon to be broken body and his shed blood, is just terribly twisted.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?


If they were offended at that, he was saying wait until you hear the rest..

John 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


They did not like hearing that salvation had to be given them and much like the manna in the desert, it was totally a gift of the Father. They could not do anything on their own to earn it, they only had access to it by faith ( remember the Jews could only gather enough manna for the one days meals, and for 2 days on the day before the sabbath, they had to have faith in God to provide what was necessary for their life) . The idea that salvation was all of God and not found in law keeping was blasphemy to the law oriented Jews that felt their salvation was based on their will, their law keeping etc..

To make an attempt to make this a teaching on the Lords supper misses the mark. Christ was still alive and in His flesh and he was, by your reckoning , telling them to do something they could not do because the Lords Supper had not been instituted yet,it is a spiritual eating and drinking that is here spoken of, not a sacramental. This was clearly a metaphorical teaching to Jews looking for a Physical savior like Moses, and for physical bread to meet their physical hunger. Jesus always used symbols that the Jews understood to make spiritual points.


59 posted on 02/06/2010 11:29:58 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: Salvation

I am so thankful and comforted in knowing the Catholic Church is indeed led by the Holy Spirit thru imperfect men & the Teaching of Salvation clear & plain for all who open their hearts to His Word. Peace :)


60 posted on 02/07/2010 12:20:27 AM PST by TheStickman
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To: doc1019

“His sacrifice suffices for all our sins (past, present and future) if we have accepted him as our saviour”

So, if you committed a pre-meditated murder of an innocent person, and a bystander shot and killed you so that you died unrepentant, you’d go straight to Heaven, no sweat.

Is that what you believe?


61 posted on 02/07/2010 1:14:46 AM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: All

This a a link to a great site and DVD about the common ground between Catholics and Protestants. And the differences. I want to order the DVD. I saw the program on TBN at midnight on Thursday.

http://www.catholicprotestant.com/


62 posted on 02/07/2010 5:25:04 AM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Happily Catholic)
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To: Salvation

Wait. So you’re saying that “No, but I AM fully invested,” is NOT the correct answer?


63 posted on 02/07/2010 5:34:25 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: doc1019

Some simple things take many words to explain. The fault is not in the thing but in words.


64 posted on 02/07/2010 5:35:54 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: ScubieNuc
The Creeds were an attempt by some to summerize what they believed

No doubt to protect them form the winter of error and misbelief.

:-)

65 posted on 02/07/2010 5:40:08 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: doc1019

And your point?

What a glorious, all sufficient salvation we have in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ!


66 posted on 02/07/2010 6:19:55 AM PST by WestwardHo (Whom the god would destroy, they first drive mad.)
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To: Salvation

I like to respond, “Would you like to buy some Cub Scout popcorn?”

“Why do you ask?” is always a useful response, too ... for just about any question!


67 posted on 02/07/2010 6:27:51 AM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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To: Mad Dawg
A quote from a book I am reading by Scott Hahn.

God wants us to be nothing less than "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pt. 1:4). But how can we do this? For us, the divine life does not "come naturally." We have a human nature, and human things come naturally to us. We eat, sleep, gather together, and mate without having to take extensive lessons beforehand. But the abundant life, perfect happiness -- life in the Family of the Trinity, is not merely beyond our power; it is inconceivable to us."

So, we must be baptized and strive daily to live the life that God lives here on earth -- even though we be sinners, so that we can live the life God lives in heaven.

68 posted on 02/07/2010 6:56:17 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: kingpins10
These are the operative verses:

25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 30 I and the Father are one.

(John 10)

So we have those who are His sheep and those who are not. Those who are follow His voice. To follow is to work. End of story, really. You guys took a simple gospel and made it into a get out of jail free card.

I asked you a specific question: if one is not responding to the Holy Ghost that dwells in him, will he be saved?

What you gave as answer is some generic Protestant feel-good fluff. No scripture that your link cites supports what they teach out of their own mouths. For example, your link posits the question "Can a saved person ever again be lost?". Read their "answer". First, they give a categorical "of course not!". Then they explain that "The very nature of the spiritual life that has been received—eternal—and the Divine Source and Agent of that life—God—forbid drawing the conclusion that a saved person can ever again be lost." Well, that is their philosophical opinion. I have an opinion too, that eternal life can be spent in hell as well as in heaven. So that is not an answer. Then they quote from John 10, incompletely. Who does and who does not receive the eternal life in the sense that God holds them securely, they don't explain. This would be a good time for them to also explain how we have the process of judgment, based on works, described in such detail in Matthew 25, but they don't. Instead, the rest of that silly paragraph is devoted to the question no one is asking, how to call that doctrine.

Not good enough.

69 posted on 02/07/2010 7:20:56 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: ScubieNuc
Here is your problem, buried in that long post.

Notice the clear language, "NOT as your fathers did eat." How did their fathers eat? By putting the manna in their mouth and chewing. That is not how we "eat" the Bread from Heaven. We "eat" this bread by believing.

Keep in mind that He had already taught at some length that He that believed on Him would be saved. He has already taught that the man that is taught by the Father comes to him and are saved. So to interpret this as other than a metaphor of being saved by His soon to be broken body and his shed blood, is just terribly twisted.

I notice the language. The difference between the Eucharist and the manna is explained right there: manna sustains for a while and then you die. The Eucharist gives eternal life. The Jewish fathers did not receive theeucharist and died. Christians receive the Eucharist and they live. Big difference.

If Jesus meant to say that we eat the Eucharist metaphorically, as you claim, "by believing", why did He not say so? Instead, amidst that exhortation to faith He insisted that the Eucharist is His body and it is "food indeed".

The rest of your post is building up the false dichotomy of physical versus spiritual. That, too, is the result of not reading the Scripture. Christ said in the same discourse two things: the Eucharist is "food indeed" and at the same time "flesh profiteth nothing" from it. That is the very definition of a sacrament: a physical act that profits the spirit.

A heretic is one who knows the doctrines of the Church and prefers his own. I cannot test you on how deep your understanding of Catholicism is (most Protestants I speak to on FR haven't a clue), but the doctrine you seem to like is not scriptural. That is not a good thing.

70 posted on 02/07/2010 7:35:31 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Salvation

mark for later


71 posted on 02/07/2010 7:49:27 AM PST by Jaded (I realized that after Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F)
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To: annalex
Christ said in the same discourse two things: the Eucharist is "food indeed" and at the same time "flesh profiteth nothing" from it. That is the very definition of a sacrament: a physical act that profits the spirit.

I've never seen it put exactly that way. That is an extremely helpful explanation.

72 posted on 02/07/2010 8:15:49 AM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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To: Salvation

Purgatory is a Vatican invention. It does not exist. People don’t have two chances at salvation.


73 posted on 02/07/2010 10:03:01 AM PST by backslacker (In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form...)
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To: Tax-chick
helpful explanation

Small wonder it's right in the gospel then.

74 posted on 02/07/2010 10:22:37 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: backslacker
two chances at salvation.

Please tell us, what's "purgatory"?

75 posted on 02/07/2010 10:23:57 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Read the end of Mark. Jesus said, “Whoever believes and is baptised is saved. Whoever believes not is damned.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2016&version=KJV

He didn’t say whoever isnt baptised is damned. This shouldn’t be an exercise in trying to prove the other person is wrong.

To “follow His voice” is to follow the unction from the Holy Ghost. Works has nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost instructs and gives us the thoughts and direction to stay on the path of righteousness. We obviously can rebel against Him and choose to sin, no doubt. But it’s not like one catholic at work told me once, “I can do what I want to do (sin) as long as I go to Mass.” He is completely wrong and willful sin is egregious in the sight of the Lord.

Not trying to be blunt, but your attitude “not good enough” is not someone who has an open mind about these things. Unfortunately, this is the standard attitude of literally dozens of catholic I have encountered in my years. And that is that they are 100% correct, and everyone else is 100% wrong. The Pharisees had this attitude toward Christ Himself. Good luck in your studies.


76 posted on 02/07/2010 10:24:53 AM PST by kingpins10
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To: ScubieNuc

Excellent


77 posted on 02/07/2010 10:31:54 AM PST by backslacker (In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form...)
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To: kingpins10
He didn’t say whoever isnt baptised is damned

Right, He didn't. That is the Catholic teaching: the judgment is by our works, and the sacraments strengthen us to do them.

To “follow His voice” is to follow the unction from the Holy Ghost. Works has nothing to do with it

You mean the unction one receives at the Confirmation? Yes, in a way.

I disagree that "works has nothing to do with it". To follow means to do certain works and not do other works.

one catholic at work told me once, “I can do what I want to do (sin) as long as I go to Mass.”

No, if that is how he indeed put it, he was not helpful to you. Eternal security of salvation does come from receiving the Eucharist at Mass, but one must receive it, as the Bible teaches, "worthily", which is a tall order. But the question was, where does the Protestant concept of security of salvation come from. I can explain the correct doctrine any time, but wouldn't you want to defend what you believe?

your attitude

There are many things Catholics agree with the Protestants about. After all, Protestantism emerged from Catholicism and retained certain truths. Further, the Protestants often know and defend their faith better than the Catholics, and we Catholics should learn from them that kind of attitude. "Be always ready to explain the hope that is in you", St. Peter said. But when a doctrine is wrong, it is wrong. We are not saved by faith alone; we are not saved till we are dead and justified. What you teach is the sin of presumption, in this case, presumption of salvation, especially destructive if "faith alone" is taught right next to it. We can probably agree on very many things, but on this one I am 100% correct and you are not. I understand that it is not pleasant to hear, but then it is a discussion forum and presumably you came here to discuss something.

78 posted on 02/07/2010 10:50:36 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Purgatory is an invention by the Vatican. Ask them.


79 posted on 02/07/2010 11:00:39 AM PST by backslacker (In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form...)
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To: backslacker

I ask you because your #73 betrayed ingorance of what purgatory is.

When I don’t understand something I try not to post opinions about it.


80 posted on 02/07/2010 11:13:16 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

You say that as a true Catholic! Let the Vatican interpret!


81 posted on 02/07/2010 11:31:19 AM PST by backslacker (In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form...)
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To: annalex

As I stated earlier, good luck in your studies.


82 posted on 02/07/2010 12:27:37 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: annalex
That is the very definition of a sacrament: a physical act that profits the spirit.

This statement is in one of the Gospels? Could you give a citation, please?

83 posted on 02/07/2010 12:46:30 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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To: Tax-chick
Sorry, all I meant was that "food indeed" and "flesh profiteth nothing" are characterizations of the Sacrament of the Eucharist in the same chapter of St. John's Gospel, by Jesus Himself. They happen to apply to any other sacrament as well.

The formal definition of a sacrament is "outward sign of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification" (Catholic Encyclopedia: Sacraments)

84 posted on 02/07/2010 1:27:55 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Mad Dawg; ScubieNuc

Yes, the Creeds came about because of many heresies. They are very specific, especially the Nicene Creed.

Won’t you be happy when we can once again say, “Credo” — “I believe”?


85 posted on 02/07/2010 1:39:51 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: backslacker
Let the Vatican interpret!

Sure, here it is:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609


604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
605 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
607 2 Macc 12:46.
608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.

ARTICLE 12 "I BELIEVE IN LIFE EVERLASTING"

86 posted on 02/07/2010 1:42:03 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Tax-chick; annalex

And think of all the saints who fasted and were only sustained with the Holy Eucharist! The stories are amazing.


87 posted on 02/07/2010 1:42:45 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: backslacker

Only those souls who are completely pure will enter the realm of heaven.

Otherwise, souls will have a purifying period for their smaller/venial sins, yet know they are bound for heaven.

Otherwise at the moment of their death, they will know they are cast into hell.

Three destinations:
Pure — heaven
Slightly impure — Purgatory to redeem those impurities
Stained with grievous sin — hell.

Won’t you be surprised when you find out there is a Purgatory?

It’s in the Scriptures even though you won’t see the word, Purgatory.

Of course, one does not see the word Trinity either. Yet we believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


88 posted on 02/07/2010 1:46:50 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Secret Agent Man

IMHO, Christianity doesn’t make living the saved life hard, rather our scarred thinking processes, consequential of sin in our life, tempts us to make our life difficult if we fail to remain in fellowship with Him.


89 posted on 02/07/2010 1:47:10 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Salvation

Good post.


90 posted on 02/07/2010 1:47:35 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Salvation

I expect to spend quite some time in Purgatory. If I’m lucky. :)


91 posted on 02/07/2010 1:56:10 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Salvation

In 1 Cor 13, St. Paul says, “Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you...” That’s a big IF and it makes clear that St. Paul felt you could lose your salvation if you did not LIVE the word of God.


92 posted on 02/07/2010 2:00:21 PM PST by Melian ("Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.")
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To: Cvengr

It may be easier for some to do than others. Not everything tempts the same people to the same degree, and not everyone has habitual sins as much as the next person.

But being both sinner and saint every day, having to fight off our old nature every day (Paul) and putting on the armor every day, still sinning and not even being aware, it is so easy and natural to do,

it is difficult to live a Christian life. The comfort we take in that we know we are forgiven when we genuinely are sorry and ask makes us unafraid to continue on, or feel we’ve hopelessly lost salvation.


93 posted on 02/07/2010 2:02:42 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Repentance is returning our face to Him, not feeling sorry.

He is the object of our faith.

He’s known every sin we would ever commit, so we don;t fool Him by being sorry and really meaning it, but rather our sin is simply missing the object He provides for us to aim at when we think and act. When we repent, we are returning to Him in our thinking, through faith in what Christ performed on the Cross.


94 posted on 02/07/2010 2:47:38 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: trisham

Me too.

At least we will know we are bound for heaven. But the wait will be horrendous in my opinion.


95 posted on 02/07/2010 3:14:07 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Melian

Amen to that! We need to live it each and every day to the best of our ability.


96 posted on 02/07/2010 3:14:47 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Exactly right.


97 posted on 02/07/2010 3:15:57 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Cvengr

Like your tagline. Too many of us end up in that “stress” category.


98 posted on 02/07/2010 3:16:12 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: trisham

You can help me wash dishes.


99 posted on 02/07/2010 4:09:12 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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To: Salvation

If you only went to Spanish liturgy, you would say “Creo”! Except maybe in Spain; the “Misa Flamenca” uses “Creemos,” “we believe,” and it’s an approved variant.


100 posted on 02/07/2010 4:11:50 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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