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Anglicans going to Rome are not "proper Catholics"
BBC ^ | February 6, 2010 | William Crawley

Posted on 02/07/2010 12:01:41 PM PST by NYer

The Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu, says those Anglicans who respond to Pope Benedict's invitation to join the Catholic Church under the provisions of the new Apostolic Constitution, would not be "proper Catholics". You can listen to the interview in full on this week's Sunday Sequence (Sunday, from 8.30am).

In the same interview, Dr Sentamu also called for the banning of the British National Party and says he is "surprised that Parliament doesn't want to do it." He also says he has "every hope" that [Robert] Mugabe will be gone very soon."

Here's part of the exchange I had with Dr Sentamu on this week's Sunday Sequence:

Archbishop Sentamu: "If people genuinely realise that they want to be Roman Catholic, they should convert properly, and go through catechesis and be made proper Catholics. This kind of creation [the Apostolic Constitution] -- well, all I can say is, we wish them every blessing and may the Lord encourage them. But as far as I am concerned, if I was really, genuinely wanting to convert, I wouldn't go into an Ordinariate. I would actually go into catechesis and become a truly converted Roman Catholic and be accepted."

William Crawley: "So those Anglicans who take advantage of the Apostolic Constitution, you're saying, would not be 'proper Catholics'?"

Archbishop Sentamu: "Well, I mean, I'd be very surprised --"

William Crawley: "What would they be if they are not 'proper Catholics'?"

Archbishop Sentamu: "They would be what they are: an Ordinariate of the Vatican."

William Crawley: "Anglican Émigrés?"

Archbishop Sentamu: "(Laughter) Well, if I was a Roman Catholic bishop and I had this group within my diocese being looked after by an Ordinariate whose reference was back to the Vatican, I'd have to ask a number of questions."

(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: abominationtogod; anglican; catholic; churchofengland; fauxchristians; gaychurch; moapb; nonchristiancult; vatican

1 posted on 02/07/2010 12:01:41 PM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

Catholic / Anglican ping!


2 posted on 02/07/2010 12:02:17 PM PST by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: NYer

Well he’s a bit of a whiner isn’t he?


3 posted on 02/07/2010 12:08:06 PM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: NYer

What does he know about being a proper Catholic that the Pope doesn’t?


4 posted on 02/07/2010 12:08:12 PM PST by Rodebrecht (No army can stop an idea whose time has come.)
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To: Rodebrecht

The Pope is trying to build bridges to Anglicans and other Christians - with the goal of creating unity, while the Bishop is trying to burn them down.


5 posted on 02/07/2010 12:13:13 PM PST by reg45
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To: NYer

The fable of the sour grapes comes to mind.


6 posted on 02/07/2010 12:19:01 PM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: NYer

Hey, Sentamu, SHUT UP!


7 posted on 02/07/2010 12:41:57 PM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: NYer

The UK Anglican churches are somewhat unsettled right now, because while they are the de jure center of Anglicanism, the de facto strength of Anglicanism is in Africa. In truth, the UK churches are very conscious of their weakness, and feeling a bit put upon.

That is, as the Pope extended his hand to them, it made them all too aware of their failings. For example, while about 22% (13.4m) of the people in the UK identify themselves as Anglicans, only about 1.7m (out of a population of 61m) of them are churchgoers. There are now more practicing Catholics in the UK than practicing Anglicans.


8 posted on 02/07/2010 12:47:09 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: NYer

When I saw the title, I figured it was something posted by one of our “friends” to start some junk.

I am, of course, relieved to find that it is an CofE bishop whining.


9 posted on 02/07/2010 1:00:57 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: NYer

Interesting - it was the interviewer who introduced and repeated the phrase “proper Catholics.” Archbishop Sentamu did not use the phrase, and seemed quite hesitant to agree with it, even when pressed.

It’s almost as if the interview wrote the headline in advance and then was determined to elicit his intended words ... and then attributed his own words to the Archbishop when that didn’t work. What a trashy thing to do.


10 posted on 02/07/2010 1:04:57 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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To: NYer; Tax-chick
I agree that the interviewer put words in His Grace's mouth. He went to the interview with a predetermination to cause trouble, and when Sentamu wouldn't give it to him, he made it up.

Here's the real problem: Sentamu is a Ugandan, from the Evangelical, low church wing of the Anglicans. He doesn't "get" Catholic issues because they are way out of his orbit. It would be like interviewing the Pope about some internal issue in the Church of Christ.

11 posted on 02/07/2010 1:53:58 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: NYer
....would not be "proper Catholics".

LOL, like 60% of the Catholic laity in this county.

12 posted on 02/07/2010 2:15:35 PM PST by the_daug
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To: NYer

**Anglicans going to Rome are not “proper Catholics” **

They will be after some adult catechesis and reception into the Church.


13 posted on 02/07/2010 2:17:27 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

Pretty common response.

My wife’s bishop is rumoured to be rather unhappy about this.


14 posted on 02/07/2010 2:49:27 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum
Archbishop Sentamu: "If people genuinely realise that they want to be Roman Catholic, they should convert properly, and go through catechesis and be made proper Catholics. This kind of creation [the Apostolic Constitution] -- well, all I can say is, we wish them every blessing and may the Lord encourage them. But as far as I am concerned, if I was really, genuinely wanting to convert, I wouldn't go into an Ordinariate. I would actually go into catechesis and become a truly converted Roman Catholic and be accepted." ---------------------------------------------------------- I pretty much agree with the archbishop, this generation of converts are probably going to be a mixed and confused bunch,...ahhh but their children will grow up in the faith and be a much better lot. The best plan for the most long term effectiveness.There is something to be admired in the approach.
15 posted on 02/07/2010 3:19:31 PM PST by Sporaticus
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To: Sporaticus
We were Episcopalians who converted to Catholicism after the debacle at General Convention 2003.

The only Piskies who are interested in swimming the Tiber are the 'high churchers' - the low churchers and the Evangelicals are not coming. It would be a total waste of time for high churchers to go to your typical RCIA class, as they already subscribe to 99 and 94/100ths of Catholic doctrine, and in many cases are 'more Roman than Rome', especially since VCII.

In fact, that's the reason that more liberal Catholics are having ten fits about welcoming the Anglicans . . . because these guys are extremely orthodox and conservative and will not support guitar masses, ordination of women, liturgical dance, or fuzzy theology.

When we visited our parish for the first time, we met with the rector and he gave us a number of books to read. When we met with him again, it was plain that the only points on which we had any substantial difference were the validity of Anglican Orders and the supremacy of the Pope. That's true of most high churchers. So we evinced our readiness to adopt the Catholic view . . . I observed that 'by their fruits shall ye know them' and Anglican orders clearly had not worked out or protected that denomination from error, and that Papal supremacy prevented exactly the sort of nonsense that GC 2003 created . . . in other words, adult leadership is a good thing. As my husband said, "We can deal."

We did not go through RCIA and were received into the communion and confirmed by the rector, with the Sunday School director acting as our sponsor.

Besides, we would have annoyed the heck out of everybody else in RCIA talking about finer points of this and that and what the Church Fathers said, while they were learning stuff that we learned in Sunday School 30 years ago.

16 posted on 02/07/2010 3:50:49 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother; sionnsar; Huber

I’ve read some pieces by the African Bishops in “First Things,” and when I asked sionnsar and Huber about them, they agreed that their experiences were so different that what Archbishop Akinola, for example, thought was “key” about being Anglican was not at all what our Traditional Anglicans would have chosen.

What do you think the author’s point was, here? Just general pot-stirring, down on the CofE, down on RC? Just a jerk?


17 posted on 02/07/2010 3:55:51 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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To: netmilsmom
Well he’s a bit of a whiner isn’t he?

Well he is a Pom.

18 posted on 02/07/2010 4:02:08 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (It is always tempting to impute unlikely virtues to the cute.)
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To: Tax-chick
A quick google reveals he is a reporter and presenter for BBC Northern Ireland. Educated in Belfast, theology degree, has a degree from Princeton (a Presbyterian institution although it had absolutely no effect on me) as well in philosophy. So the answer is yes, down on CofE, down on the Catholics especially. And given his oeuvre seems to thrive on stirring the pot.
19 posted on 02/07/2010 4:21:18 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

That sounds like, “All of the above, and also you can kick him in the knee just on general principles.” One of the “intelligentsia” whom Thomas Sowell makes look like absolute cretins.


20 posted on 02/07/2010 4:23:48 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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To: Tax-chick

He is right about Mugabe, anyhow.


21 posted on 02/07/2010 4:33:35 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Pray for my soul. More things are wrought by prayer Than this world dreams of.-- Idylls of the King)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

I have “every hope,” too, but I’ve been practicing Cuban cooking for four years now, and Fidel Castro still hasn’t died, so we haven’t had the massive “Fidelito es Muerto!” bash the neighborhood is waiting for.

“Hope” is an iffy thing.


22 posted on 02/07/2010 4:37:19 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Contrary to what politicians expect us to do, let's stop and think. " ~Thomas Sowell, of course)
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To: AnAmericanMother

AnAmericanMother:

Outstanding post and there are millions of Catholics who are glad you are now in full communion with Rome and all of the Catholic CHurch.


23 posted on 02/07/2010 5:06:14 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: Tax-chick
Yep, sounds like a troublemaker to me too.

But the fundamental problem is that everyone outside insists on thinking that the Anglican Church is a church, when actually it was formed as a political solution to a political problem, containing at least three separate churches and perhaps as many as five.

24 posted on 02/07/2010 5:08:48 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: CTrent1564
We are glad to be here!

We just jumped the gun a little, I think the High Church Anglicans on the whole will be good Catholics and an asset to the Church. After all, some pretty good Catholics have swum the Tiber . . . John Cardinal Newman for one.

25 posted on 02/07/2010 5:33:43 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: netmilsmom

:)I found out 2 weeks ago my friend will be ordained in June in USA.WOOOHOOOO


26 posted on 02/07/2010 5:36:43 PM PST by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: Sporaticus

As a Lutheran, I don’t have much of a dog in this fight except for maybe a home for the refuges of the ELCA who won’t go LCMS for anything.

But going strictly by the old canons, this is problematic at best. Not that some of those have been followed for a thousand years or so.


27 posted on 02/07/2010 7:10:34 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: NYer

Why wouldn’t they be ‘proper Catholics’?


28 posted on 02/07/2010 7:14:53 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: AnAmericanMother

You write that the reporter has a degree from “Princeton.” For the sake of others, that’s a degree from Princeton Theological Seminary, not to be confused with Princeton University.


29 posted on 02/07/2010 7:47:42 PM PST by Irish Owl
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To: NYer; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

30 posted on 02/07/2010 7:51:44 PM PST by narses ("lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi")
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To: Irish Owl
Well, that's interesting. His biography on his blog is quite vague about which institution of higher learning he attended in Princeton NJ. I guess we're lucky it wasn't Westminster Choir College.

But at least he's not a fellow alum.

31 posted on 02/07/2010 8:30:23 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

Welcome! You folks are a great asset at a time when so many “Catholics” want us to emulate the church from which you fled. I agree that any Episcopalian (other than marriage converts) who would be so inclined as to convert to Catholicism would likely require very little catechetical instruction.
The same would certainly be true of “Anglo-Catholics” in England who already saw themselves as essentially a branch of Catholicism. Generations came and went hoping and praying that the C of E would return to communion with Rome. Unfortunately, the rest had no such intention, and instead embraced every modernist fad to come along. If that’s the path which Anglicans choose, they ought not to whine when some leap from that sinking ship and reach out for the Barque of Peter.
I applaud the creation of this ordinariate. I don’t see how such Catholics will be any less “proper Catholics” than those who attend Maronite, Ruthenian, or Ukrainian parishes. Aren’t the Eastern Catholic Churches independent of the local Latin bishop? If the Archbishop of Philadelphia can sleep at night knowing that there are Eastern parishes with his geographical jurisdiction, I think the Archbishop of Westminster will be able to manage while knowing that there are Anglican Ordinariate parishes out there which are not under his pastoral jurisdiction.


32 posted on 02/07/2010 8:56:34 PM PST by Irish Owl
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
only about 1.7m (out of a population of 61m) of them are churchgoers.

And there are nearly as many (1.5 million) Muslims in the UK...

33 posted on 02/07/2010 9:01:21 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: Irish Owl

I got that from his Wikipedia page. I’ll have to check his blog for a laugh!


34 posted on 02/08/2010 3:57:05 AM PST by Irish Owl
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To: Irish Owl
Being Irish, you can fill me in on where he stands in the religious end of things. I was just guessing -- and I'm sure there are all sorts of subtle clues that I didn't pick up on (sort of like the question of family in the American South - if you're not from here the fine gradations don't register).

I must say he seems ruder than C.S. Lewis, who was a Belfast Church-of-Ireland man.

35 posted on 02/08/2010 4:43:03 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Irish Owl
I agree absolutely! We have Maronites here, nobody gets exercised about it.

Perhaps His Grace's view is colored by the long-running controversy over the "flying bishops" . . . ?

The U.S. has had an "Anglican Use Rite" for some time -- they don't have their own bishops but use most of the old Book of Common Prayer (with amendations to correct some Edwardian excesses). There's not enough critical mass (pun intended) in our old ECUSA diocese to start an AU parish -- this is traditionally a "low" diocese with only a couple of "high" parishes -- but in Texas where for some reason there is a cluster of AU parishes it seems to have worked fine and caused little if any problems with the local bishop.

36 posted on 02/08/2010 4:49:51 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Sporaticus

I think the Archbishop is saying that if someone wants to be Catholic, then they should be Catholic all they way.

We have had for many years Anglicans who pretend to be Catholics (the “more Catholic than the Pope” types). Now we will have Catholics who pretend to be Anglicans (they were the vestments and use the a modified BCP, but they believe all that Rome teaches, even those things Anglicanism rejects).


37 posted on 02/08/2010 5:01:21 AM PST by bobjam
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To: bobjam
We have had for many years Anglicans who pretend to be Catholics

Perhaps recent events are showing that there were all along yearning rather than pretending.

38 posted on 02/08/2010 5:32:18 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: trad_anglican

For many that may be true. But it must be ascertained if that yearning was for Catholic style or Catholic substance. Things such as Roman vestments, incense and bells would fall under the style category. Doctrines such as Purgatory, Papal Infallibility and the full breadth of Rome’s Mariology would fall under the substance category. Just because one wants the style does not mean they want the substance.

Many in the Church of England oppose female bishops, gay marriage and other distasteful innovations. They also don’t accept the above mentioned Roman doctrines. The choice then comes down to which is more distasteful: the troubles in the CoE or the questionable (in their minds) teachings of Rome.


39 posted on 02/08/2010 8:41:33 AM PST by bobjam
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To: trad_anglican; bobjam
I think it's fair to say that we thought we were Catholics, but as it turned out we were mistaken.

So we corrected our mistake and become Catholics.

I don't see the problem here.

I miss Cranmer's prayerbook and Coverdale's psalter . . . but we sing a surprising number of English anthems with those lovely old words.

Plus, of course, the Episcopalians had abandoned Cranmer and Coverdale anyhow for a translation that is JUST as bad as the old ICEL translation (in fact they are suspiciously similar). The Church is now correcting the translation, while the Episcopalians are moving in the wrong direction (in that as in so many other things).

So I am content.

40 posted on 02/08/2010 8:44:59 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: bobjam
The Catholic "style" people tend to be homosexual and theatrical types. They like the smells and bells and fancy vestments and elaborate ceremonial, for all the wrong reasons.

They are NOT coming over. Not even thinking about it. They have (in their view) the best of both worlds right where they are. Why should they change?

The Oxford Movement folks are the ones who are jumping ship. Their theology is quite Catholic.

41 posted on 02/08/2010 8:49:27 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

“The Catholic “style” people tend to be homosexual and theatrical type”

True. The more liberal churches are usually like that. I’ve always called it “liturgical theater.”


42 posted on 02/08/2010 9:05:47 AM PST by bobjam
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To: AnAmericanMother
I think it's fair to say that we thought we were Catholics, but as it turned out we were mistaken.

Very well said.

43 posted on 02/08/2010 9:06:50 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: NYer

Sorry, Dr John Sentamu, they ARE real Catholics — many may be better Catholics than cradle Catholics


44 posted on 03/03/2010 7:22:23 PM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Unfortunately, there are also now more practicing Muslims in the UK than practicing Anglicans, so the problem is more dire than just for Anglicans.


45 posted on 03/03/2010 7:24:34 PM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: AnAmericanMother

“In fact, that’s the reason that more liberal Catholics are having ten fits about welcoming the Anglicans . . . because these guys are extremely orthodox and conservative and will not support guitar masses, ordination of women, liturgical dance, or fuzzy theology.” — and that’s why we say HOORAY! the Anglicans are coming :)


46 posted on 03/03/2010 7:25:10 PM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Irish Owl
"I don’t see how such Catholics will be any less “proper Catholics” than those who attend Maronite, Ruthenian, or Ukrainian parishes. Aren’t the Eastern Catholic Churches independent of the local Latin bishop? If the Archbishop of Philadelphia can sleep at night knowing that there are Eastern parishes with his geographical jurisdiction, I think the Archbishop of Westminster will be able to manage while knowing that there are Anglican Ordinariate parishes out there which are not under his pastoral jurisdiction."

well put
47 posted on 03/03/2010 7:28:14 PM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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