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Who, then, should be classed as dispensationalists?
(C) Copyright, 1951, by LEWIS SPERRY CHAFER: In the Public Domain ^ | Lewis Sperry Chafer

Posted on 02/08/2010 9:18:08 AM PST by fishtank

"What men, then, according to these definitions, should be classed as dispensationalists? The answer to this question might be stated in a variety of ways. Three of these may suffice:

(1) Any person is a dispensationalist who trusts the blood of Christ rather than bringing an animal sacrifice.

(2) Any person is a dispensationalist who disclaims any right or title to the land which God covenanted to Israel for an everlasting inheritance. And

(3) any person is a dispensationalist who observes the first day of the week rather than the seventh. To all this it would be replied that every Christian does these things, which is obviously true; and it is equally true that, to a very considerable degree, all Christians are dispensationalists. However, not all Christians, though sincere, are as well instructed in the spiritual content of the Scriptures as others, nor have they seen the necessity of recognizing other and deeper distinctions which do confront the careful student of the Word of God."


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: chafer; darby; dispensationalism; dispensensationalist; scofield

1 posted on 02/08/2010 9:18:09 AM PST by fishtank
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To: drstevej; xzins

ping


2 posted on 02/08/2010 9:20:36 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

Most any Christian recognizes dispensations in God’s Word. The disagreement is about how far to push it. There are others who were even more dispensational than Chafer (like E.W. Bullinger, Charles Welch, et al.).


3 posted on 02/08/2010 9:24:23 AM PST by Genoa (Luke 12:2)
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To: fishtank
” ...However, not all Christians, though sincere, are as well instructed in the spiritual content of the Scriptures as others, nor have they seen the necessity of recognizing other and deeper distinctions which do confront the careful student of the Word of God.””
_________________________________________________________

No kidding. You have that right!

I notice the Baptist Church I attend teachers the lighter messages of God. Few controversial or condemning lifestyle behaviors are heard from the pulpit today. Lots of practical messages are offered weekly. Which are good in their own way but I consider them to fall short of effective preaching of the Word ala Spurgeon and the like.

4 posted on 02/08/2010 9:28:44 AM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: Genoa

Bullinger’s model answers a lot of questions people have and also eliminates many apparent contradictions.


5 posted on 02/08/2010 9:31:47 AM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: geologist

It’s not limited to the pulpit.

I remember swinging by Fuller Seminary in Pasadena,CA, going in the bookstore and asking for anything by Lewis Sperry Chafer. They never heard of him and couldn’t find anything when they searched, but they could offer plenty of New Age sales. Go figure.


6 posted on 02/08/2010 9:33:51 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: fishtank
Number one is correct

Number two is wrong: a dispensationalist is one who rightly divides the word of truth. When this is done one knows he has no promise of any land on this earth nor are we in any covenant.

Number three: a dispensationalist does not observe any days,weeks,months,or years. No sabaths for us today

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

7 posted on 02/08/2010 9:36:52 AM PST by PoloSec (Note to Princess B H Obama: May PISS be Upon Mohammads Head...You Pervert)
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To: Cvengr
True it is not limited to the pulpit. My thought was the Church of today does little to stimulate serious Bible study and consideration. Thus when whole subjects are glossed over or avoided, the searching of the Scriptures is not being given vocal support. Yes, I realize we are all free to search on our own. Young people need inspiration to do so, MOO.
8 posted on 02/08/2010 9:40:22 AM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: fishtank

In regards to #3, worshiping on a particular day of the week.

Col 2:16-23
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(18) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(19) And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
(20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
(22) Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
(23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.


9 posted on 02/08/2010 9:53:13 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: fishtank; drstevej; xzins
For anyone interested in classical, non-dispensational, premillennialism:

* Summary:

Jesus returns physically

Returns after tribulation, before millennium

No rapture before Second Coming

There is a Great Tribulation

Christians suffer during tribulation

After tribulation, Christ returns for 1000 years to reign on earth.

Modern state of Israel is not relevant to Revelation prophecies.

God's Promises to Hebrews conditional on obedience.

Most references to Israel in Revelation refer symbolically to the church.

http://modelsofeschatology.com/week-2-classic-premillennialism/

10 posted on 02/08/2010 9:57:42 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: PoloSec

“Number two is wrong: a dispensationalist is one who rightly divides the word of truth. When this is done one knows he has no promise of any land on this earth nor are we in any covenant.”

Disagree: The word “disclaims” is the opposite of “claims”.

Number three: a dispensationalist does not observe any days,weeks,months,or years. No sabaths for us today.

Disagree: Chafer makes it clear that there is no sabbath. He is just making the point that a Christian has the freedom to discard a particular day, and has a freedom to worship on Sunday, if he so chooses.


11 posted on 02/08/2010 10:01:50 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: PoloSec

“You: Number two is wrong: a dispensationalist is one who rightly divides the word of truth. When this is done one knows he has no promise of any land on this earth nor are we in any covenant.”

Me: Disagree: The word “disclaims” is the opposite of “claims”.

“You: Number three: a dispensationalist does not observe any days,weeks,months,or years. No sabaths for us today.”

Me: Disagree: Chafer makes it clear that there is no sabbath. He is just making the point that a Christian has the freedom to discard a particular day, and has a freedom to worship on Sunday, if he so chooses.


12 posted on 02/08/2010 10:03:17 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank
(1) Any person is a dispensationalist who trusts the blood of Christ rather than bringing an animal sacrifice.

You might be a dispensationalist if....15)you think animal sacrifices are coming back, and this is a good thing.

any person is a dispensationalist who observes the first day of the week rather than the seventh.

I know it's futile to say it, but read Vos, read Kline. Then we'll talk.

13 posted on 02/08/2010 10:05:12 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: Cvengr

christianbook.com has Chafer’s Systematic Theology unabridged for 49.99 .... not an ad here, just an FYI


14 posted on 02/08/2010 10:05:53 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

I’ve downloaded it since, from the web. It’s loaded up now and comes up on a .pdf browser with links to all the chapters and volumes.


15 posted on 02/08/2010 10:10:48 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: fishtank

bkmk


16 posted on 02/08/2010 10:12:55 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (GP-35 Grande Puissance-1935)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

So here we have a non-dispensationalist insisting on a literal “After tribulation, Christ returns for 1000 years to reign on earth” and then also insisting a non-literal approach to “Modern state of Israel is not relevant to Revelation prophecies” and “Most references to Israel in Revelation refer symbolically to the church.”


17 posted on 02/08/2010 10:13:11 AM PST by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: Cvengr
"In regards to #3, worshiping on a particular day of the week."
#4: Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. Kinda says it all....
18 posted on 02/08/2010 10:16:57 AM PST by joe fonebone (A third party does need the majority to control the house...they only need 10%)
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To: PoloSec
Number two is wrong: a dispensationalist is one who rightly divides the word of truth.

What do you mean by "rightly divides"? What specifically do you think "divide" means?
19 posted on 02/08/2010 10:29:35 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: dartuser
Yes dartuser, because even the number "1000" is used quite often in the Bible and does not often mean "1000" either. There are numerous examples of that. "1000 generations" "1000 hills" that do not literally mean the numerical value of "1000."

Christ said we must pluck out our eyes and amputate any body part that causes us to sin--will you LITERALLY interpret that advice, or do you see that Christ was using hyperbole and used literary devices such as parables THROUGOUT his ministry.

Here is one of my favorite verses about Israel, from the apostle Paul:

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring." ~ Romans 9: 6-8

20 posted on 02/08/2010 10:39:45 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: Cvengr
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath day... (22) Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Can you explain how verse 16 and verse 22 are related in this pericope? Specifically, what part of "holy day, new moon, Sabbath day" is a part of "commandments and doctrines of men."

Also, can you tell me what the tense the Greek verb "to come" is in verse 17?

I am curious how many people actually bother to read this passage in the original Greek before they make assumptions that they think it places "holy days, new moon, Sabbaths" in a negative light - and if they had considered that if Paul were actually saying what they claim he is saying, that according to Deut 12:32-13:10 that he was to be regarded as a false prophet and stoned...

Check your premises.
21 posted on 02/08/2010 10:41:00 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: fishtank
christianbook.com has Chafer’s Systematic Theology unabridged for 49.99 .... not an ad here, just an FYI

As an aside, totally separate from the topic of this thread, am I the only one who gets monumentally depressed looking over the CBD fliers? Some good stuff, yes (they have Louis Berkhof's Systematic Theology for $12.). Much drek, much that's a positive spiritual danger, better off pulped.

22 posted on 02/08/2010 10:41:08 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: fishtank

Just yesterday I had the opportunity to chat with a recent grad of Dallas Theological Seminary. He reports that Dispensationalism, while still alive at DTS is waning. There is a new group of “progressives” that admit that much of the detail of Dispensationalism has been “proven wrong” (his words). About all that is left is a belief that Israel will somehow play a role in the Second Coming. When I asked him what is being said about 1948 (establishment of the modern state of Israel), he said that even that is no longer sacrosanct. The young man does not know what to think about eschatology and is even giving some aspects or Preterism a look.


23 posted on 02/08/2010 10:44:08 AM PST by grumpa (VP)
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To: Tzfat

I haven’t had time to perform that study. Feel free to help in conjugating the verb and sharing your study, if you like.

It reads as though it would be an interesting study, if those questions are indeed the right questions.

I recalled the verse from recent readings upon reading the third point, which I hadn’t seen as a qualifier form any dispensational studies I’ve seen, but I also haven’t focused on that aspect, so perhaps I’ve simply missed it in the past. I don’t know.

Some things are spiritually discerned and I suspect my recollection of the verse was spiritually initiated.


24 posted on 02/08/2010 11:08:32 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

Wow. Seriously. Now I don’t have 50 dollars ... Ha ha... Oh well, at least I have it in hardcopy.... I LOVE it, though.

I appreciate how Chafer’s teaching gives a biblical basis for moving further from the RCC than the first reformers travelled.


25 posted on 02/08/2010 11:15:07 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: dartuser

Some teaching traditions are so nuanced, so refined that merely average pewsitters cannot begin to appreciate.

/sarcasm

inother words, great post and good logic you’ve shown.


26 posted on 02/08/2010 11:18:07 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Lee N. Field

Well, they peddle the “shack” and the “message”, too..... Yes, dreck.


27 posted on 02/08/2010 11:20:29 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: grumpa

Have you looked at the www.chafer.edu school in Albuquerque?

I doubt if I would feel at home at DTS either.


28 posted on 02/08/2010 11:23:06 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
Christ said we must pluck out our eyes and amputate any body part that causes us to sin--will you LITERALLY interpret that advice

The grammatical-historical approach (the dispensational hermeutic) recognizes literary genre and applies the appropriate interpretive devises when the different genre are encountered.

I appreciate your favorite verse ... but it only speaks your truth in isolation. Turn over 2 chapters and I just dont see Paul teaching that the church has replaced Israel; I see him teaching that because of Israels disobediance salvation has come to us Gentiles ... until the full number of us is gathered ... then (apparently in the future) God has a master plan to bring in the entire nation of Israel ... which dispensationalists believe is one of the primary reasons for the great tribulation.

"I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! "

"I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!"

"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you."

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in ... and so all Israel will be saved"

29 posted on 02/08/2010 11:52:11 AM PST by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: dartuser

that’s all good and true, but that doesn’t say that one is special or has God’s favor by living within the geopolitical borders of a nation-state!!! Only that thankfully, some Jews WILL indeed come to faith in Christ.

Without faith in Christ, we all perish and face God’s eternal wrath. Salvation is ultimately not divided along racial and ethnic lines.


30 posted on 02/08/2010 12:02:26 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: Genoa

(like E.W. Bullinger, Charles Welch, et al.).

What! You don;t believe the “Body of Christ” began at Acts 28?

How about the C R Stamm version, or the J C O’Hair dates.;-D


31 posted on 02/08/2010 12:10:58 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (GP-35 Grande Puissance-1935)
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To: Cvengr
The verb is in the present tense. So, it indicates the things that are a "shadow" are things that are in process of being revealed - not a dispensational "past tense" where the "old things have been replaced by new things."

I am a Torah-observant Messianic believer (which means I am absolutely not dispensational). I once had a dear friend of mine (who is dispensational) take me to task for "keeping the Sabbath" and "not eating pork" etc. Then he quoted Colossians 2:16. I asked him to read it again, and then I said, "I am not judging you at all, so why are you judging me for those things." Of course, it had completely escaped his notice that the passage could be read exactly the opposite of what he was used to seeing.

It is my conviction that this passage was being written to people who DID keep the Sabbath etc, and they were being told that instead, they should not - and to adopt a form of astheticism, founded upon man-made regulations ("don't touch" etc.). Further proof of this is found in Paul's use of stoicheion in verse 20 (elemetary elements) which in classical Greek refers to "earth, wind, and fire" - in other word, a form of asthetic paganism that was being coupled with biblical theology.
32 posted on 02/08/2010 12:12:13 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat

We might be interpreting dispensationalism by two different metrics. When I address dispensationalism, I am not combining much more doctrine than merely affirming God had different administrations in different ages, but His Word remains true throughout. I haven’t discerned all the distinctions such as those made by Fruchtenbaum between different flavors of dispensationalism, but find dispensationalism to be a natural growth in theology from Catholicism to Protestant theology via Reformed through more literal interpretations offered in dispensationalism.

Of course I enjoy also studying from the original languages although I am still learning.

Where have you found to be the best sources of Hebrew and Greek language education for Biblical study?


33 posted on 02/08/2010 7:16:48 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
Where have you found to be the best sources of Hebrew and Greek language education for Biblical study?

My best source is Tim Hegg - who is passible in Greek, but outstanding on Hebrew. He is the author of "The Letter Writer" (Paul, from a First Century Judaism perspective). In my opinion, he as been a much better representative of the Messianic/Hebrew Roots movement than Fruchtenbaum.

Dispensationalism and the Hebrew Roots movement are on more friendly terms than "Replacement Theology" - because of our mutual literal approach to Scripture, but Fruchtenbaum most certainly does not represent the vast majority of us in the movement. We see dispensationalism as a mechanism to avoid the inevitable conclusion that "Christianity" is, and will always be "Jewish" (with credits to Edith Schaeffer).
34 posted on 02/08/2010 8:22:16 PM PST by Tzfat
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