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Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Faith and Works
CatholicApologetics.org ^ | 1985-19991 | Dr. Robert Schihl and Paul Flanagan

Posted on 02/08/2010 7:55:53 PM PST by Salvation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics


Apologetics without apology!


What does the Roman Catholic Church teach about ...? ... and why?

This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.

This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:

The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.

Faith and Works

Faith and Works

There is perhaps no greater confusion among Roman Catholic Christians and Evangelical Protestant and Pentecostal Christians than that held over the controversy of faith versus good works. This controversy best warrants the balance of scriptures necessary in reading the Word of God to understand what God means for us to know.

The Bible is clear that faith holds a first and prominent role in the salvation of every person.

Heb 10:38
But my just one shall live by faith ...
Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him (God) ...

The Bible is equally clear on the saving role of good works in the lives of the faithful.

1 Pet 2:12
Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that if they speak of you as evildoers, they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation.
Rev 2:2
I know your works, your labor, and your endurance ...
Mt 5:16
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
Mt 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.

James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.
James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Nor is man saved by works alone.

Rom 9:31-32
Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law ... because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works.
Gal 3:11
And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."

The Bible declares that salvation is a gift of God alone and constantly reaffirms that faith has a primary role in that salvation.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.
Heb 6:1
Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,
Heb 9:14
... how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
2 Tim 1:9
He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 3:4-5
... the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy.
Rom 3:27-28
What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Gal 2:16
(We) know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

The constant teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on these Scriptures was clearly restated on January 13, 1547.

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, "without which it is impossible to please God" and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, "if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise," as the Apostle says, "grace is no more grace."

The Council also reiterated the relationship of good works to man justified by faith.

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI
Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: "Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name"; and "Do not lose confidence, which hath a great reward." Hence, to those who work well "unto the end" and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: 1tim47; apologetics; catholic; catholiclist; faithandworks
Notice that the title is Faith AND Works

Both are needed and supported by Scripture. Please read the entire post before jumping into a heated discussion.

The Bible is the authority here -- not us.

1 posted on 02/08/2010 7:55:54 PM PST by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

2 posted on 02/08/2010 7:57:35 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: kingpins10; RnMomof7; Dr. Eckleburg

Here you are. It’s not complicated.


3 posted on 02/08/2010 8:02:03 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Salvation
The Bible is the authority here -- not us.

Absolutely! Without the Bible we wouldn't know what God's will for us is. Acceptable "works" are the result of our "faith" that God is and will do what He promised in the Holy Scritpures.

4 posted on 02/08/2010 8:04:36 PM PST by Ken4TA (The truth sometimes hurts - but is truth nonetheless!)
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To: annalex

Very forthright presentation in my estimation. These authors are great in giving both sides and showing the difference — using the Bible!

I love it!


5 posted on 02/08/2010 8:20:25 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Ken4TA

Welcome to FR!


6 posted on 02/08/2010 8:26:45 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Ken4TA
You expressed your opinion. The authors of the article though presented the scripture and then showed how the Church summarized it. They did not simply stated what their opinion is.

So, is there a reason other than your personal opinion, why you disagree with the article?

***
I looked at your profile and your site today, www.kenfortier.com. Let me echo Salvation in welcoming you to FR, before I have reasons to regret doing so :)))

You don't know me, but I know you from my exchanges with Truth Defender, who numerous times referred me to your site.

I am saddened to know that Truth Defender is no longer with us. I pray for his immortal soul.

I believe that you are a very original thinker. In my opinion, -- I am bringing to mind my conversations with Truth Defender about immortality of souls, -- the reference to God's ability to destroy the soul He created in Matthew 10:28 does not say that God actually destroys the reprobates, but rather that He could do so if He wanted. The point of bringing this possibility up seems to be not to state it as a fact, but to underscore the absolute sovereignty of God.

Anyway, that is not the topic of this thread. We may have a chance to discuss it further at some point. The religion forum always benefits from a good debate, so let me encourage you to post your writings and not be disappointed by unpleasant posts. Before you do so, study the caucus rules posted at the Religion Moderator profile; it might give you possibilities to better represent your views.

Myself, I am a very committed lay Catholic, so you are not likely to find me in theologocal agreement with much of Protestantism. However, I like people with opinions, and in that spirit, welcome to FR.

7 posted on 02/08/2010 9:51:29 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Grace through faith, not faith + works.

John 5:24, 6:37, 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Ephesians 1:13-14, 2:9, 4:30, 1 John 5:13, Titus 3:5, 2 Peter 2:4-5 with Genesis 7:13,16


8 posted on 02/08/2010 9:52:32 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: kingpins10

Grace through faith.

Yes, the faith comes first, but then the works are manifested out of the faith?

Do you practice any of these works as quoted in Romans 12: 9-21? I bet you do.


9 posted on 02/08/2010 9:57:53 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
I was mistaken. That should have been Romans 12: 6-21.

Romans
Chapter 12
6
Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us exercise them: 4 if prophecy, in proportion to the faith;
7
if ministry, in ministering; if one is a teacher, in teaching;
8
if one exhorts, in exhortation; if one contributes, in generosity; if one is over others, 5 with diligence; if one does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
9
Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good;
10
love one another with mutual affection; anticipate one another in showing honor.
11
Do not grow slack in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
12
Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer.
13
Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality.
14
6 Bless those who persecute (you), bless and do not curse them.
15
Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
16
Have the same regard for one another; do not be haughty but associate with the lowly; do not be wise in your own estimation.
17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all.
18
If possible, on your part, live at peace with all.
19
Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
20
Rather, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head."

10 posted on 02/08/2010 10:00:54 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Sure I do. But so do some many nonbelievers. Yet they are not covered by grace.


11 posted on 02/08/2010 10:01:17 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: kingpins10
Well, for example

John 5:24

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. 22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but hath given all judgment to the Son. 23 That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him. 24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life. 25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. 29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

Not only verse 24 says nothing about "grace through faith", the context actually supports the Catholic doctrine (see v. 29). Would you, please, shorten the list to the Bible quotes you are prepared to seriously discuss, or if the first one is such a quote, discuss it before we move to the others?

12 posted on 02/08/2010 10:06:17 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Sorry, I’m not going to shorten the list. They are easily pulled up on sites like biblegateway.com and biblos.com

It is best to read the verses in-context and in-chapter. I am not attempting to debate, verse-by-verse or otherwise. My only concern is souls.

I can only hope that you will read and study the verses/chapters I gave you with an open mind and heart.


13 posted on 02/08/2010 10:09:48 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: annalex
Hello to you too!Mp> So, is there a reason other than your personal opinion, why you disagree with the article?

Hmm...I disagreed? Actually, no, I didn't. In fact, I said I absolutely agreed! Didn't you read my post?

You expressed your opinion. The authors of the article though presented the scripture and then showed how the Church summarized it. They did not simply stated what their opinion is.

Hmm....Yes, I stated my opinion. So did the writers of that article, even though they quoted some Scripture with it. An opinion is an opinion, regardless of quoting Scripture. Everything is an opinion, other than the Scriptures - they are given as the teachings of God and His Christ, Jesus. And, I may say, there are opinions stated within the Bible itself - read Job to see that, it's real plain that some of it is opinion.

I am saddened to know that Truth Defender is no longer with us. I pray for his immortal soul.

He is sleeping until the resurrection and will receive his reward of immortality at that time. I, personally, don't believe you prayers would help, for his life is now hid in Christ Jesus; however, you are free to pray.

Myself, I am a very committed lay Catholic, so you are not likely to find me in theologocal agreement with much of Protestantism. However, I like people with opinions, and in that spirit, welcome to FR.

I'm just a very committed Christian minister, not a Protestant. I have no connection with Protestant churches: I affiliate with independent Christian churches in the Evangelical community. While it's true I do a lot of study, and have done so since the 60's, hardly anything I write or have written is all that original. A lot of it was a repeat of what was stated by early Christian writers: that's my education in History speaking :-)

Anyhow, many thanks for the welcome to FR. I hope to hear from you in any of the articles I create a thread on. After all, it's the "lay" people who are the main readers of them from what I gather. They will, I guarantee, be controversial to many readers.

14 posted on 02/08/2010 10:22:32 PM PST by Ken4TA (The truth sometimes hurts - but is truth nonetheless!)
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To: kingpins10

Which is why the necessity of faith is covered in the original post.


15 posted on 02/08/2010 11:12:58 PM PST by Ultra Sonic 007 (To view the FR@Alabama ping list, click on my profile!)
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To: kingpins10
I have no problem finding the verses; the problem is that in chapter and in context they do not show what you say, but they show easily what the article says and the Church teaches: that salvation comes from faith and works.

If I tell you that a car requires a motor and the wheels, and then in one place I say that a motor is required and in another place I say that the wheels are required, then all these statements are true, and you cannot use the statement that a motor is required to build a car, to "prove" to me that wheels are not required.

Anyway, a couple more from your list.

John 6 is the discourse on the Eucharist. This is how it starts:

Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. 34 They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. 35 And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and you believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

Of these you chose verse 37, which is not even talking about either faith or works. It is a shorter version of a longer discourse in John 10 about the perseverance of saints. It sure refers to those who "come to Him" but says nothing about what "coming to Him" means. In some places of the Gospel people come to Jesus and He praises their faith; in others, He urges them to give what they have to the poor, i.e. urges them to do works of charity. That proves the article, and disproves your Protestant illusion of faith alone.

Your better prooftext would have been verse 40 (or 47), but again it only shows a desire for salvation of all who come. Toward the end of the conversation, many of those who came, left for good, so it is hard to argue that a one time conversion is enough for salvation. The discourse goes on to say "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day". From verse 50 to near the end of the chapter the discourse is about the necessity of receiving the Holy Eucharist, which is a form of works, this time it is liturgical work.

Let's skip John 10 because it also is about perseverance of saints, not on how to be one. The next one from your list, Romans 38-39 is can be read to prove security of salvation, but it says nothing about whether works play any part in it. Most directly is simply explain the power of divine love, which extends, let us remember, to saint and sinner alike.

This is why I asked you to substantiate your quotes: because I have gone down that list a bit and found them not proving faith alone. They are not even the best that are usually offered as prooftexts for "faith alone".

On the other hand, if you do not wish to debate that, then that is fine too.

16 posted on 02/09/2010 5:48:41 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Ken4TA

Yes, that’s right. Truth Defender mentioned that you are deep into the patristics and are independent from Protestant ideology.

Please flag me to your articles as you post them.


17 posted on 02/09/2010 5:51:27 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
Yes, that’s right. Truth Defender mentioned that you are deep into the patristics and are independent from Protestant ideology.

I don't know exactly what Dale said about me, but then I wasn't around all the time. He lived with us for a few years and used my computer to do his blogging. Yes, I really dug deep into the early writings of Christianity in my research; also Egyptian, Persian, Greek and Latin writers. Very interesting stuff.

Please flag me to your articles as you post them.

Wilco.

18 posted on 02/09/2010 6:03:59 AM PST by Ken4TA (The truth sometimes hurts - but is truth nonetheless!)
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To: annalex

Sorry, like I said earlier I do not wish to debate anyone. (And unfortunately that’s how my father was until he was on his deathbed and accepted Christ after being a life-long catholic). He had the attitude that he wanted to prove one wrong.

I gave you many verses that showed what it takes to be saved. The most glaring truth is in Ephesians 2 8-9).

The “Holy Eucharist” is a catholic invention after the death of the Apostles. To say that Peter is the founder of the catholic church is risible. Not only did he never go to Rome, he was a preacher/teacher of Jews, not Gentiles. If anyone should’ve been chosen, it should’ve been Paul. He went to Rome and brought the Gospel to the Gentiles.

The devil’s biggest deception is fooling people that they can get to heaven by adding or taking away from the gospel. Or as Paul said, “If anyone preaches another gospel, let him be accursed.”


19 posted on 02/09/2010 9:46:16 AM PST by kingpins10
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To: kingpins10

God bless your father and forgive him his sins.

Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches grace alone, which is a Catholic doctrine, — not faith alone. The apparent denial of the salvific character of works is in fact only referring to works for social status. The next verse, “we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them” should disabuse any Protestant of his error.

For someone who does not wish to debate anyone, you have quite a collection of anti-Catholic nonsense that concludes your post, and has nothing to do with the topic that you are actually quite welcome to debate. Let me touch on these briefly.

The Eucharist is referred to many times in the Gospel, although not by that name. The name, by the way, — Greek for Thanksgiving — is fully biblical as Jesus himself gave thanks during the Last Supper. To learn about the Eucharist, read, when you have time, the scene of the Last Supper in all synoptic gospels, the discussion, already mentioned here, in the second part of John 6, and the definitive statement on the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist in 1 Cor. 11:20-30. Do not miss the figure of transubstantiation in the supper at Emmaus episode.

St. Peter is the first Pope because Christ made him so: see the granting of the keys, the renaming, the call to feed the flock, and the promise Jesus made at the Last Supper to specially pray for him, St. Peter, so that he could fail not and convert his brethren, that is, other bishops. But he is not the founder of the Church, Christ is. All these are of course expressed in well known verses most people remember readily; if you need a reference, ask, or better still, wait till an appopriate catechetical thread on the Eucharist comes up and post your questions then.

Whether St. Peter ever went to Rome would have nothing to do with his papacy. The pope is pope not because he lives in Rome, but because he is appointed one. Whether he went to Rome or not is not a known fact, but there is evidence, both scriptural and historical that he did.

That St. Paul would have been a wonderful pope no one can deny; he wasn’t around when the papacy was established, and apparently preceded St. Peter in martyrdom.

But it is not correct to portray St. Peter as exclusively dealing with the more difficult task of converting the Jews. St. Peter was the one who converted the first Gentile and initiated lifting the restrictions of Mosaic law, which made Gentile conversion difficult.

I fully agree that preaching another gospel is damnable. Why do you think I am willing to explain the gospel to all non-Catholics who’d listen?


20 posted on 02/09/2010 4:58:49 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: kingpins10

**The “Holy Eucharist” is a catholic invention after the death of the Apostles**

Why do you say that?

The Holy Eucharist was instituted by Jesus Christ at the Last Supper.

“This is my body.” “This is my blood of the New Covenant.”

The apostles followed Christ’s instructions from the Last Supper. “Do this in remembrance of me.”

I have no problem with the Holy Eucharist coming straight from Scripture and I guess I do not understand why you do.


21 posted on 02/09/2010 5:51:18 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
Foundation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: Apologetics Without Apology
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: An Incomplete Picture
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: Dearly Beloved Catholic Brothers and Sisters

Being Catholic and Christian: Faith and Salvation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics:Being Catholic & Christian:Faith and Salvation-Authoriative
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Being Catholic & Christian: Apostolic Confessions of Faith
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Post-Apostolic Confessions of Faith
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: A Biblical Portrait
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: "Being Saved"
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Knowledge of Salvation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Faith and Works

22 posted on 02/09/2010 5:53:48 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
BIBLE SAYS FAITH AND WORKS NEEDED FOR SALVATION [Ecumenical]
Faith and Works [Ecumenical]
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Faith and Works
There is No Contradiction Between Faith and Works, Pope Asserts

23 posted on 09/05/2010 3:33:16 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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