Posted on 02/10/2010 9:08:47 AM PST by marshmallow
“No where in the New Testament will you see anything about a pope or Peter being the ‘first’.”
Uh, Peter was the first among the disciples, which is why Jesus was speaking with him. Why does Peter mean rock in every language? It’s because of the verse that Christ would build his church on him.
“To juxtapose The Nazarene’s comment that Peter had spoken well and that on this I will build My church is nuts. The grammar alone does not allow this notion.”
Uh, perhaps because that’s what the name Peter means? Go look it up. Why is ‘Peter’ Rock?
“But that aside. Take a close look at the rituals and practises of the roman church and note how many of them come from the ancient babylonian traditions. Moreover, Peter was not in Rome Paul was.”
Peter was in Rome. Funny how you say we must rely on scripture when Paul says, the “traditions” you have learned.
As for the rituals and practices, I’m aware of them. But they come from Judaism, and model the practices in the temple. Of course I could believe people who hate Catholicism, or I could actually read the liturgists who really know what’s going on.
You’re grasping at straws here. Peter was the first pope, the first bishop of Rome. All the historical evidence defends this interpretation.
I could go on but I have no real desire get into an all out slug fest
“I swam the Rhine myself, but from Dordrecht with the Mennonites. I can see the appeal in the theology, but I think the Catholics have gotten it right.
All the rationales for the ‘reform’ movement no longer exist, therefore, I’d argue the division serves no purpose.”
I was never an “Anglo-Catholic” although we had a few in our “Low Church”. For example, We had no Crucifixes, etc. in our Building. Only a plain Gold plated Cross behind the Altar. We were really more like Lutherans than we were our fellow Episcopalian “Anglo-Catholics”. So we certainly had little in common with real Catholics.
Since our Church does not recognize the Papacy, Mariology, Purgatory and many other Catholic Doctrines, we don’t really have much to talk about as far as any formal reunification goes. Although we are always ready to join forces in things such as the battle for Pro-Life issues as well as other Moral issues of concern.
I see those divisions as ones of preferences. Some prefer more ornate, others more spare.
What’s your issue with the other three though? Don’t Lutherans teach about Mary?
No they do not come from Judaism. Most of the ritualistic aspect comes from the various religions around Rome at the time. Indeed, Easter is a celebration of Ishtar. The pope’s miter us taken straight from Babylonian mystery religions.
The text in the ancient languages ( not your current English translation) points exactly to the idea that was spoken by Peter no the man himself. “Thous art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. That is the rock.
It is generally recognized that the New Testament is silent on Peter’s general whereabouts following his arrest and intended execution by King Agrippa in the early 40s C.E. (Acts 12). Peter briefly reappears in Jerusalem several years later (approximately 49 C.E.) for a conference of the apostles and other church leaders, as Luke records in Acts 15. Thereafter the New Testament record says nothing about Peter’s location except for one comment in his own epistles: in 1 Peter 5:13, he passes on salutations from church members in Babylon.
Look I am not going to argue with you anymore. Believe what you will. I am not one to try and brow beat another into agreeing with me. You can torture and twist the words all you wish. That does not make you correct
“No they do not come from Judaism. Most of the ritualistic aspect comes from the various religions around Rome at the time.”
Why then do they have an altar, and Christ is offered as the passover lamb?
“Indeed, Easter is a celebration of Ishtar.”
Wow, where are you getting this from? Easter has always been the celebration of the resurrection of Christ.
“The pope’s miter us taken straight from Babylonian mystery religions.”
According to whom? Yourself? I just want to see where you are getting this from.
“The text in the ancient languages ( not your current English translation) points exactly to the idea that was spoken by Peter no the man himself. “Thous art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. That is the rock.”
Which ancient languages?
“It is generally recognized that the New Testament is silent on Peter’s general whereabouts following his arrest and intended execution by King Agrippa in the early 40s C.E. (Acts 12).”
It’s generally acknowledged that Peter was executed in Rome.
“Peter briefly reappears in Jerusalem several years later (approximately 49 C.E.) for a conference of the apostles and other church leaders, as Luke records in Acts 15.”
Where they came from all over the Empire.
“Look I am not going to argue with you anymore. Believe what you will. I am not one to try and brow beat another into agreeing with me. You can torture and twist the words all you wish. That does not make you correct.”
Where have I tortured and twisted anything? Look, you are incorrect in your statements here. I’ve not caught a single one that is true.
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