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Catholic Biblical Apologetics:Christ instituted only 1 church..formally..specifically..visible one.
CatholicApologetics.org ^ | 1985-1991 | Dr. Robert Schihl and Paul Flanagan

Posted on 02/18/2010 6:58:38 PM PST by Salvation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics


Apologetics without apology!


What does the Roman Catholic Church teach about ...? ... and why?

This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.

This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:

The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.

Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

 

Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

Mt 16:18
"... upon this rock I will build my church" (Both "this rock" and "my church" are clearly singular in the Greek text.)
Jn 10:16
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Jn 17:20-21
"I pray not only for them (the Apostles), but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me."
Jn 21:15-17
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."
Mt 28: 19
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"
Mk 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: 1tim47; apologetics; catholic; catholiclist; christ
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Finishing the section on Christ -- Apostles -- establishment of the Church.
1 posted on 02/18/2010 6:58:38 PM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation
Let me pose a couple of questions for you.

Would you argue that all it takes to be a Christian is membership in a church/denomination?

If so, how do you arrive at that Biblically?

If not, then you would agree that any given church (regardless of rather it's catholic or any other) will have attendees mixed between "real" Christians (sheep) and false Christians (goats).

So does that church then lose it's standing as part of the "church" (body of Christ)? Or is the "church" wherever there are true believers regardless of the presence of others who are not?

If you agree with that, then I submit that the "church" is anywhere there are true Christians, regardless of affiliation. Paul wrote to the church in this location or that location...but it was one church, and the connecting cord was not a denomination but a shared relationship with the Father through Christ Jesus.

I submit that wherever there are 2 or more true Christians there is a "church", and that happens all over the world and it happens in catholic churches, in lutheran church, in independent churches, in non-denominational churches.

What makes one part of the "church" is Jesus, not a structure, physical or political.

2 posted on 02/18/2010 7:14:37 PM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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To: nickcarraway; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

3 posted on 02/18/2010 7:15:20 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
Foundation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: Apologetics Without Apology
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: An Incomplete Picture
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: Dearly Beloved Catholic Brothers and Sisters

Being Catholic and Christian: Faith and Salvation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics:Being Catholic & Christian:Faith and Salvation-Authoriative
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Being Catholic & Christian: Apostolic Confessions of Faith
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Post-Apostolic Confessions of Faith
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: A Biblical Portrait
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: "Being Saved"
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Knowledge of Salvation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Faith and Works
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Process of Christian Initiation

The Church: A Biblical Portrait - A New Testament Apologetic

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Church: A Biblical Portrait - A New Testament Apologetic: Jesus Christ preached a Reign or Kingdom, the Kingdom of God (or of heaven).
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Jesus preached an end-times kingdom but one already existing on earth
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Jesus preached that the kingdom was primarily spiritual and internal but also visible and external.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Christ called and founded an exclusive, inner core group of twelve men called the "apostles."
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Christ committed His very mission to this twelve man inner core group, his Apostles, alone.
Christ gave to the Twelve, the Apostles, the power of ruling, teaching and sanctifying.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: This same church Christ willed to endure until the end of the world.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

4 posted on 02/18/2010 7:18:29 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

These verses do not demonstrate that God instituted “one church” if by that it is meant the Roman Catholic Church.


5 posted on 02/18/2010 7:21:26 PM PST by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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To: highlander_UW

The next part of this series might answer your question.

The Marks of the Church

Stay tuned.

I would say that Baptism is more important than a church — and of course, in my estimation, a baptized person is baptized “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (A Catholic formulat, BTW.)

Otherwise, it is not a valid baptism.

You are aware that the Catholic Church does recognize those baptisms that are properly done, don’t you?


6 posted on 02/18/2010 7:22:50 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

The RCC takes Matt 16:18 out of its context, and makes a false doctrine out of it. That was NOT the question Jesus was asking, nor was it the context of Peter’s answer. Read the whole exchange.

Truth is not what we want it to be (by twisting Scripture): it is what it is.


7 posted on 02/18/2010 7:25:17 PM PST by Salvavida (The restoration of the U.S.A. starts with filling the pews at every Bible-believing church.)
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To: highlander_UW

“If you agree with that, then I submit that the “church” is anywhere there are true Christians, regardless of affiliation.”

I accept your submission as most accurate....at least in my book!


8 posted on 02/18/2010 7:27:30 PM PST by Dudoight
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To: Salvation
The next part of this series might answer your question. The Marks of the Church Stay tuned.

I don't normally follow the religion forum stuff, but I'll try to keep an eye out.

I would say that Baptism is more important than a church — and of course, in my estimation, a baptized person is baptized “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (A Catholic formulat, BTW.) Otherwise, it is not a valid baptism.

I agree with you that baptism is more important than membership in a church (not to suggest that fellow-shipping isn't important). Although I think the formulat you specify is preferable I wouldn't be so dogmatic as to say that a baptism is invalid if someone accidentally omits a word. I don't believe Jesus' baptism utilized that exact formulat.

You are aware that the Catholic Church does recognize those baptisms that are properly done, don’t you?

I was raised as a catholic as a child and I thought at the time one needed to be a member of the catholic church to be considered a "real" Christian by the catholic church...although that was quite some time ago and it could have been changed/updated and/or my memory could be faulty on it.

In any case, I wasn't really trying to challenge your posts, I just thought I'd ask a question on this one.

9 posted on 02/18/2010 7:33:40 PM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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To: Dudoight
I accept your submission as most accurate....at least in my book!

Thanks...and I submit that, at least in one respect then, that at this board there is...church. God bless.

10 posted on 02/18/2010 7:35:21 PM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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To: Salvavida

How are you twisting it? To your bias?


11 posted on 02/18/2010 7:37:24 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: highlander_UW

**I don’t believe Jesus’ baptism utilized that exact formulat.**

We really don’t know those words, do we. Not in Holy Scripture. But my priest tells me that we will know all things when we arrive in heaven. Sounds good to me.


12 posted on 02/18/2010 7:39:19 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

13 posted on 02/18/2010 7:42:33 PM PST by narses ("lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi")
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To: Salvation
We really don’t know those words, do we. Not in Holy Scripture. But my priest tells me that we will know all things when we arrive in heaven. Sounds good to me.

Very true. And I'm not in the least concerned about the exact wording for Jesus...and to be honest, while I think your wording is excellent and scriptural, I believe anyone can get dunked but it's the faith that seals the deal...and is, in fact, preeminent. And I say that not to diminish the importance of baptism. Although I'm sure you've heard the old argument about the thief on the cross who wasn't baptized as an example of what I'm suggesting.

But bottom line, I don't think we're in any disagreement.

14 posted on 02/18/2010 7:42:56 PM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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To: LiteKeeper

“These verses do not demonstrate that God instituted “one church” if by that it is meant the Roman Catholic Church.”

What do they demonstrate then? Why NOT the Universal (Catholic) Church?


15 posted on 02/18/2010 7:45:09 PM PST by narses ("lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi")
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To: Salvavida
The RCC takes Matt 16:18 out of its context, and makes a false doctrine out of it. That was NOT the question Jesus was asking, nor was it the context of Peter’s answer. Read the whole exchange.

Truth is not what we want it to be (by twisting Scripture): it is what it is.


Matthew:
13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
20 Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.

I guess you are right, that single passage doesn't clarify it, but if you do take the whole scripture in context it makes perfect sense.

He was talking to Peter, a single person. He did not include all the other apostles in that statement. To believe he did, is truly to distort the scriptures. Jesus Himself selected Peter as the head of His church here on earth, and that position has been held continuously for 2000 years in the Roman Catholic Church. Peter was the first pope and the apostles were the first bishops.


16 posted on 02/18/2010 8:19:20 PM PST by JPII Be Not Afraid
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To: highlander_UW

**but it’s the faith that seals the deal**

Not always......

Or the faith of the parents and the godparents in the case of infant baptism.


17 posted on 02/18/2010 8:22:39 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: highlander_UW
Or is the "church" wherever there are true believers regardless of the presence of others who are not?

If you agree with that, then I submit that the "church" is anywhere there are true Christians, regardless of affiliation.

But what if a true believer is one who accepts the authority that Jesus Christ gave to the apostles and is now exercised by their legitimate successors the Catholic bishops; one who accepts the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding the sacraments given to the apostles and preserved by the Catholic Church?

18 posted on 02/18/2010 8:51:52 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Salvation
Not always...... Or the faith of the parents and the godparents in the case of infant baptism.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I do not believe anyone's salvation is dependent upon someone else's faith.

Let me ask you thinks...say a baby is born and all relatives are killed in one fell swoop by an earthquake or some other disaster and then the baby dies. Do you believe God will address the needs of that baby's salvation, or are they damned because they lacked the relatives?

If you say God can and will provide for that baby's salvation then why do you believe in some cases God wouldn't and the salvation of that baby is dependent upon relatives?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not negating any value of relatives praying for a baby, but I believe it's God who saves, not the godparents.

19 posted on 02/18/2010 9:04:50 PM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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To: Petrosius
But what if a true believer is one who accepts the authority that Jesus Christ gave to the apostles and is now exercised by their legitimate successors the Catholic bishops; one who accepts the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding the sacraments given to the apostles and preserved by the Catholic Church?

That is not supported in scripture. There are a number of passages that discuss salvation and none of them involve bishops or the catholic church...they involve faith, belief and baptism.

20 posted on 02/18/2010 9:06:50 PM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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To: narses

I can accept the universal (catholic) church, but not the Roman Catholic Church as the only expression of the church of Jesus Christ.


21 posted on 02/18/2010 9:31:16 PM PST by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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To: highlander_UW
That is not supported in scripture. There are a number of passages that discuss salvation and none of them involve bishops or the catholic church...they involve faith, belief and baptism.

Authority of the apostles:

Then he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits to drive them out and to cure every disease and every illness.… Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words--go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet.… Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.
Matt. 10:1,14,40

Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, 'The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.' Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. And as for you, Capernaum, 'Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.'" Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."
Luke 10:10-16

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.
John 13:20

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
John 20:21-23

The office of apostles continues after the death of the original twelve:
During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language 'Akeldama,' that is, Field of Blood. For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.' Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection." So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. Then they prayed, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place." Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.
Acts 1:15-25
Catholic teaching on the Eucharist:
(Jesus said) "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
John 6:51-58

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
Matt. 26:26-28


22 posted on 02/18/2010 9:44:40 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: LiteKeeper
I can accept the universal (catholic) church, but not the Roman Catholic Church as the only expression of the church of Jesus Christ.
Good, what are the specific, distinguishing marks that separate the two?
23 posted on 02/18/2010 9:46:03 PM PST by narses ("lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi")
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To: Petrosius
I appreciate your cut and paste, but it doesn't address the issue that was being discussed, which was the suggestion that salvation is dependent upon believing bishops and the like....that is not scriptural.
24 posted on 02/18/2010 9:46:28 PM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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To: highlander_UW
I appreciate your cut and paste, but it doesn't address the issue that was being discussed, which was the suggestion that salvation is dependent upon believing bishops and the like....that is not scriptural.

Check again. Our Lord says that those who reject those he sends reject him. Those he send are the apostles. The office of the apostles continues after their death in those we now call bishops.

Also, the passages on the Eucharist show the need to eat his flesh and drink his blood as he latter instituted under the forms of bread and wine at the Last Supper; a very Catholic teaching.

25 posted on 02/18/2010 9:55:48 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: LiteKeeper
"These verses do not demonstrate that God instituted “one church” if by that it is meant the Roman Catholic Church."

And yet through Apostolic Succession we can draw a direct, unbroken line from Peter to Benedict XVI.

26 posted on 02/18/2010 9:58:45 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: highlander_UW

Well done! Good and important point. Thanks.


27 posted on 02/18/2010 10:09:09 PM PST by boatbums (A man is no fool who gives up that which he cannot keep for that which he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot)
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To: Petrosius
Check again. Our Lord says that those who reject those he sends reject him. Those he send are the apostles. The office of the apostles continues after their death in those we now call bishops.

You're playing pretty loose and dangerous with scripture my friend. Firstly, Jesus was talking to the 72 missionaries, not just the apostles. Secondly, there is nothing in the text that indicates Jesus sent them as a hierarchy to be recognized but messengers to go before Him.

Additionally, if your claim were true then it invalidates quite a few other portions of scripture talking about salvation. So clearly your interpretation can't be correct because Jesus would not contradict the rest of His Word. Here is one of the passages you'd have abrogated by your interpretation...

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Jesus laid salvation on hearing his word and believing God for eternal life. Nothing there about any Roman hierarchy.

28 posted on 02/18/2010 11:51:40 PM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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To: Salvation; All

Salvation, all these scriptures have nothing to do with the establishment an earthly church as fashioned by the RCC.

Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

Mt 16:18
"... upon this rock I will build my church" (Both "this rock" and "my church" are clearly singular in the Greek text.)

Jesus asked them who they thought He was. Peter responded: "You are the Christ (the anointed one of God), the son of the living God."   17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”

20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Jesus being the Christ and the Son of God is fundamental for God to have the New Testament Church and all that comes with it. He is the rock His Church is built on as Peter states the first time he speaks after being filled with the Holy Spirit after Pentecost.

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.[a] 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Jn 10:16
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

There is one flock and one Shepherd. Believers make up that flock and Jesus is the shepherd.

Jn 17:20-21
"I pray not only for them (the Apostles), but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me."
 
(The apostles) is not part of the verse. Even if it was, Jesus says He is not only praying for them but all who believe through their word.
 
Jn 21:15-17
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."
 
We are all to feed His Sheep. Asking him three times if he loves Him doesn't make Peter anymore important than us who love Him.
 
 
Mt 28: 19
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

That is a command given to all believers for all time.

Mk 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. It is a statement of truth.

The Catholic Church and it's dogmas are based on a small number of scriptures taken out of context just like the ones above.

The claim that Jesus established an earthly church to be administered by the apostils and handed down to their successors is just that, a claim with no bases in truth. The apostils were not given any gifts, commands or responsibilities that are not given to all believers.

Most people believe that Christ's Church started at Pentecost with the gift of the Holy Spirit. There were 120 men and women disciples in the room at the time. Only 11 were apostles. They received the same Spirit as the other 109.  

I have made this point in previous posts with no response about how God was not shy about how he wanted the Old Testament/Covenant earthly tabernacle built, outfitted and the priesthood which manned it and their duties. Start reading about Exodus 20:22 and continue on through Leviticus to Numbers 19 for a reminder. It is a little more than changing a person's name.

An excerpt at EX 29 describing an earthly priest and his duties.

 

Aaron and His Sons Consecrated
 1 “And this is what you shall do to them to hallow them for ministering to Me as priests: Take one young bull and two rams without blemish, 2 and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil (you shall make them of wheat flour). 3 You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, with the bull and the two rams.
4 “And Aaron and his sons you shall bring to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and you shall wash them with water. 5 Then you shall take the garments, put the tunic on Aaron, and the robe of the ephod, the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the intricately woven band of the ephod. 6 You shall put the turban on his head, and put the holy crown on the turban. 7 And you shall take the anointing oil, pour it on his head, and anoint him. 8 Then you shall bring his sons and put tunics on them. 9 And you shall gird them with sashes, Aaron and his sons, and put the hats on them. The priesthood shall be theirs for a perpetual statute. So you shall consecrate Aaron and his sons.
10 “You shall also have the bull brought before the tabernacle of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the bull. 11 Then you shall kill the bull before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 12 You shall take some of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour all the blood beside the base of the altar. 13 And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and burn them on the altar. 14 But the flesh of the bull, with its skin and its offal, you shall burn with fire outside the camp. It is a sin offering.
15 “You shall also take one ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram; 16 and you shall kill the ram, and you shall take its blood and sprinkle it all around on the altar. 17 Then you shall cut the ram in pieces, wash its entrails and its legs, and put them with its pieces and with its head. 18 And you shall burn the whole ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the LORD; it is a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD.
19 “You shall also take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram. 20 Then you shall kill the ram, and take some of its blood and put it on the tip of the right ear of Aaron and on the tip of the right ear of his sons, on the thumb of their right hand and on the big toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood all around on the altar. 21 And you shall take some of the blood that is on the altar, and some of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and on his garments, on his sons and on the garments of his sons with him; and he and his garments shall be hallowed, and his sons and his sons’ garments with him.
22 “Also you shall take the fat of the ram, the fat tail, the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, the two kidneys and the fat on them, the right thigh (for it is a ram of consecration), 23 one loaf of bread, one cake made with oil, and one wafer from the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the LORD; 24 and you shall put all these in the hands of Aaron and in the hands of his sons, and you shall wave them as a wave offering before the LORD. 25 You shall receive them back from their hands and burn them on the altar as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma before the LORD. It is an offering made by fire to the LORD.
26 “Then you shall take the breast of the ram of Aaron’s consecration and wave it as a wave offering before the LORD; and it shall be your portion. 27 And from the ram of the consecration you shall consecrate the breast of the wave offering which is waved, and the thigh of the heave offering which is raised, of that which is for Aaron and of that which is for his sons. 28 It shall be from the children of Israel for Aaron and his sons by a statute forever. For it is a heave offering; it shall be a heave offering from the children of Israel from the sacrifices of their peace offerings, that is, their heave offering to the LORD.
29 “And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons’ after him, to be anointed in them and to be consecrated in them. 30 That son who becomes priest in his place shall put them on for seven days, when he enters the tabernacle of meeting to minister in the holy place.
31 “And you shall take the ram of the consecration and boil its flesh in the holy place. 32 Then Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 33 They shall eat those things with which the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them; but an outsider shall not eat them, because they are holy. 34 And if any of the flesh of the consecration offerings, or of the bread, remains until the morning, then you shall burn the remainder with fire. It shall not be eaten, because it is holy.
35 “Thus you shall do to Aaron and his sons, according to all that I have commanded you. Seven days you shall consecrate them. 36 And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement. You shall cleanse the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to sanctify it. 37 Seven days you shall make atonement for the altar and sanctify it. And the altar shall be most holy. Whatever touches the altar must be holy.[a]
The Daily Offerings
   
38 “Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs of the first year, day by day continually. 39 One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight. 40 With the one lamb shall be one-tenth of an ephah of flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of pressed oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine as a drink offering. 41 And the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; and you shall offer with it the grain offering and the drink offering, as in the morning, for a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. 42 This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet you to speak with you. 43 And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory. 44 So I will consecrate the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. I will also consecrate both Aaron and his sons to minister to Me as priests. 45 I will dwell among the children of Israel and will be their God. 46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them up out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.

After seeing God's penchant for detail, could you please show me where He defines an earthly priesthood and the duties He has given those priests for the New Testament/Covenant. His instructions for how a Mass is carried out would be interesting to read.

The only Priest for the New Covenant I can find is Christ and He is in heaven as described in Hebrews. Especially 7-8-9-10. You will also read how the earthly priesthood is no longer needed because there is no need for sacrifices.

Maybe that is why He told us; "Seek yea first the kingdom of heaven." and gave Peter and us the keys to the kingdom of heaven and not an earthly building.

BVB

 


29 posted on 02/19/2010 12:15:54 AM PST by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: highlander_UW
Here is one of the passages you'd have abrogated by your interpretation...

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Jesus laid salvation on hearing his word and believing God for eternal life. Nothing there about any Roman hierarchy.

Your view of John 5:24 is incorrect because you are assuming in your argument that our Lord's words only include what your church's tradition teaches is necessary for salvation. Rather Jesus Christ's word encompasses the entire gospel, including those parts that indicate that he did establish an hierarchy in the Church. As for the 72, only the passage from Luke is addressed to them, the others only to the apostles. But even the passage from Luke points out that our Lord did indeed establish a hierarchy in the Church. A full reading of the gospel shows that the Church established by Jesus Christ was not just an undifferentiated mass of disciples. There is a clear hierarchy of Peter/apostles/the 72/disciples. Thus we see in the Church a hierarchy in the New Testament that reflects that established by God in the Old Testament. Nor is this hierarchy limited to the persons of the original Twelve, as I have show by the passage from Acts. Furthermore, we see in St. Paul that this hierarchy was broadened when new churches were established elsewhere:

From Miletus he had the presbyters of the church at Ephesus summoned. When they came to him, he addressed them, "…Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood."
Acts 20:18,19,28

Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.
1 Tim. 5:17

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious. For a bishop as God's steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.
Titus 1:5-9

We see the role of the presbyter/priest also mentioned by St. Peter
So I exhort the presbyters 2 among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. Likewise, you younger members, 5 be subject to the presbyters.
1 Peter 5:1-4
St. James indicates that the presbyters/priests have a unique role in administering the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick:
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
James 5:14,15 What is playing loose and dangerous with the Scriptures is denying the hierarchy that was established by Jesus Christ himself.

30 posted on 02/19/2010 6:10:21 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: Natural Law

That is questionable...there is no direct evidence that Peter ever went to Rome, or was considered the first “Pope”.


31 posted on 02/19/2010 9:12:56 AM PST by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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To: narses
The Roman Catholic Church is a hierarchical "denomination" headed by the Pope, who believes that he is an authority over all adherents to his organization. He also believes that if you are not a member of his church, you are not a true member of the church universal.

The "church" universal is headed by Christ Himself, through "overseers" locally. All true believers in Christ are members of His Body, and there is no one human head of the church. The church universal is expressed in many denominations, with many different expressions.

Additionally, there are many who claim to be part of church universal, including some in the Roman Catholic Church, who are not part of the church universal.

32 posted on 02/19/2010 9:19:35 AM PST by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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To: Petrosius
Your view of John 5:24 is incorrect because you are assuming in your argument that our Lord's words only include what your church's tradition teaches is necessary for salvation.

We have now arrived at where I knew we would...an impasse because you are guilty of what you accuse me of...interpreting the Bible based upon your church's traditional teaching.

Just for the record, I was raised as a catholic as a child, which led me to becoming an agnostic. In my early 20's God apprehended my heart...so discounting what I'm saying by assuming I'm running by some church's "tradition" is inaccurate...but I'm sure that will make no difference to you.

We are now at a point where you will say I misinterpret scripture and I'll say you do and as we are both convinced neither of us are likely to be swayed by the other's view.

So, that being said, have a most excellent life and may God richly bless you.

33 posted on 02/19/2010 9:38:19 AM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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To: Bobsvainbabblings

Thank you BVB...they are FAR from babblings!


34 posted on 02/19/2010 5:17:31 PM PST by boatbums (A man is no fool who gives up that which he cannot keep for that which he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot)
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To: LiteKeeper

Not responsive. What authority do you cite or claim for your odd point of view?


35 posted on 02/19/2010 6:58:45 PM PST by narses ("lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi")
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To: narses
'odd point of view'?????

'odd point of view'?????

Can you spell "H-U-B-R-I-S"???

36 posted on 02/19/2010 7:04:14 PM PST by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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To: LiteKeeper

“Can you spell “H-U-B-R-I-S”???”

Sure.

“LiteKeeper” who tells others what God really means, even when it contradicts both His Holy Writ and 2,000 years of Inspired Tradition. That spells HUBRIS.


37 posted on 02/19/2010 7:08:43 PM PST by narses ("lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi")
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To: narses

The Roman Catholic Church can not demonstrate through Scripture alone that it is the only true church. That is what the Reformation was all about.


38 posted on 02/19/2010 7:33:20 PM PST by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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To: LiteKeeper
That is questionable...there is no direct evidence that Peter ever went to Rome, or was considered the first “Pope”.

Except that St. Peter's Basilica is built on St. Peter's tomb, and that of St. Paul's as well.

Saint Peter's Tomb

39 posted on 02/19/2010 8:21:55 PM PST by Viking83 (An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.)
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To: Viking83
Except that St. Peter's Basilica is built on St. Peter's tomb, and that of St. Paul's as well.

Begging pardon, but the Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls is built over St. Paul's tomb. The current building was constructed in the 19th century over top of the ruins of the original that burned. I was there last summer.

40 posted on 02/19/2010 8:25:27 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona

That’s correct. I was little too quick on the post button.


41 posted on 02/19/2010 8:31:16 PM PST by Viking83 (An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.)
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To: Viking83

And, just a reminder that neither was actually martyred or buried inside the walls of Rome. Hence, “outside the walls,” near the place where, in the fantabulous word of our Italian guide in Rome, St. Paul was “martyrized.”


42 posted on 02/19/2010 8:34:27 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: boatbums

Thank you boatbums for reading and acknowledging the post. It is more than the people who post these articles which can easily be proven not to have any validity. The frustrating part is they will post something exactly like it in a few days like no one has ever challenged them.

They claim their church is based on the teachings of the Apostles and their successors. To bad they don’t base it on what Jesus taught the Apostles and the rest of His disciples. BVB


43 posted on 02/19/2010 9:23:20 PM PST by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: Bobsvainbabblings
Amen! I think what frustrates most of us is not just the constant reposting of the same dogmatic statements with the necessary rebuttals each time, but the overarching insistence that to ever believe otherwise than what they say is to not be a true Christian. I have never seen a "Protestant" (that's how we're identified) post anything yet that condemns anyone that has true faith in Jesus Christ as savior no matter what "label" they go by.

By "true faith", I mean the saving knowledge that Christ died for my sins and that by grace through faith, we are saved and not by our own works lest anyone should boast.

44 posted on 02/19/2010 9:51:25 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Viking83

Welcome to FR!


45 posted on 02/19/2010 11:18:53 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: boatbums

**I have never seen a “Protestant” (that’s how we’re identified) post anything yet that condemns anyone that has true faith in Jesus Christ as savior no matter what “label” they go by. **

My goodness, where have you been? There are always Catholic bashing threads. In fact two were posted today. LOL!


46 posted on 02/19/2010 11:22:22 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
My goodness, where have you been? There are always Catholic bashing threads. In fact two were posted today.

Why...I missed them. What are the titles? Remember, though, I said "Protestant" posts that "condemns anyone that has true faith in Jesus Christ as savior no matter what “label” they go by."

47 posted on 02/19/2010 11:28:02 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
The thing that worries me most is how they believe a man can forgive their sins against God for God. I would like to believe God honors their trying.
 
Peter asked Jesus how many times he had to forgive a brother who sins against him. Jesus told him seventy times seven. That pretty much means anytime they ask. Somehow Peter being told to forgive sins committed against him by a brother translates into Peter being able to forgive that brother's sins against God.
 
Jesus went on to explain to him and us why you have to forgive those sins and the concept of binding and loosing in the same conversation. If you do not forgive, loose, a brother's sin when they ask, His Father cannot forgive your sins when you ask because they are bound.
 
Matthew 18:

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet[d] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’[e] 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses

It worries me more that they think binding and loosing does not pertain to them, only priests. Nothing could be further from the truth when you read this passage. How many sins will God not be able to forgive because they have not been taught this truth to perpetuate the lie that only the apostles and their successors could forgive sins and bind and loose? BVB

48 posted on 02/19/2010 11:43:44 PM PST by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: LiteKeeper; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
LiteKeeper wrote:
The Roman Catholic Church can not demonstrate through Scripture alone that it is the only true church. That is what the Reformation was all about.
LOL, what an odd argument. God left the question unresolved until Martin Luther came along? That flies against many clear teachings of the Gospel. And since Luther how many times has the "reformation" schism in turn schismed? No, that odd argument simply reaffirms the Universal Church is the One, True Church.

Side note, see the Anglican heresy crumble and see where the Orthodox members of same return home like the Prodigal Son. Deo Gratias. Read Scott Hahn or any of the MULTITUDE of anti-Catholic Protestant scholars whose Biblical research led them BACK to Rome. Why? Real Biblical scholarship that is HONEST discovers that Christ founded ONE Church, the Apostolic Church and that His Sacraments are found in that Church. Study carefully and you will join them in coming home.

49 posted on 02/20/2010 12:53:09 AM PST by narses ("lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi")
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To: Bobsvainbabblings; boatbums
The thing that worries me most is how they believe a man can forgive their sins against God for God. I would like to believe God honors their trying.

As you noted, Matthew 18 instructs us to forgive each other's sins. Is this not what Tiger Woods was seeking yesterday? However, that does not remove the effects of sin from the soul. Only God can do that and he does so through His minister on earth, the priest.

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23). Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it.

50 posted on 02/20/2010 4:38:19 AM PST by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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