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The Lady of Fatima: Has Mary Appeared in Visions?
Christian Research Institute ^ | Hank Hanegraaff

Posted on 02/19/2010 11:32:44 PM PST by bogusname

THE LADY OF FATIMA- Introduction Some Roman Catholics believe that Mary, the mother of Christ, has actually appeared to people in places like Fatima and Medjugorje. Well, did she?

THE LADY OF FATIMA- Biblical? In evaluating the alleged appearances of Mary, our primary concern would be to determine whether these apparitions are indeed biblical. Interestingly enough, these “Marian apparitions” (as they are commonly referred to) are inextricably woven together with the official Catholic teachings about Mary which, by the way, is known as Mariology. In fact, it would be fair to say that Catholic Mariology is the very foundation of Marian apparitions. It’s been well said that a structure is only as solid as its foundation; and in looking at Marian apparitions, we need to examine the integrity of this whole concept referred to as Catholic Mariology.

(Excerpt) Read more at equip.org ...


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: agendadrivenfreeper; blessedvirginmary; bvm; catholic; catholicwhiners; fatima; mary; olfatima; virginmary
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These apparitions are not from God.
1 posted on 02/19/2010 11:32:44 PM PST by bogusname
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To: bogusname

I don’t know why you insist on trying to post a viewpoint about a Catholic subject when it seems you could use a little bit more background understanding.


2 posted on 02/19/2010 11:43:10 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: bogusname
Top Ten Scientific Explantions of Miracle of Sun at Fatima (Catholic Caucus)

Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part II
Fatima and Akita
Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part I
The Story of Fatima -- Part 2
The Story of Faitma -- Part 1
Our Lady of Fatima, May 13
Litany of Our Lady of Fatima
Last Fatima child buried in final resting place (Sr. Maria's remains transferred to Fatima)
Sister Lucia, last remaining witness of Fatima apparitions, dies at 97
SISTER LUCIA RIP

LAST OF CHILDREN WHO CLAIMED TO SEE VIRGIN MARY DIES AT 97
Last child who claimed to see "Virgin Mary" dies
Virgin Mary Child Dies (Lucia of Fatima)
Mourning for Fatima seer (Portugal declares day of mourning)
Third Secret of Fatima is not fully revealed.
Sister Lucia, last remaining witness of Fatima apparitions, dies at 97
Sr. Lucia, Fatima, and Islam
Mystery Fatima: Death of Lucia Accents Famed Secrets & Area's Hidden History
"No More Secrets," Visionary Said in 2001 (Sr. Lucia Confirmed Russia Consecrated to Mary)
Papal praise at Sister Lucia's funeral

Our Lady of Fatima, ‘counterrevolutionary’ and ‘ecumenical’
Fatima Statue Due at Vatican to Mark a Fateful Day 25 Years After Attempt on John Paul II's Life
Sister Lucia's Unpublished Writings Released - Visionary Reflects on Marian Apparitions
Sister Lucia's Last Moments
Fatima: Case Closed
Rosary Rallies Planned for Fatima Anniversary [Catholic Caucus]
Giant new church at Fatima shrine
Sister Lucia's Beatification Process to Begin ( Pope Waves 5-Year Waiting Period)
The faithful remember miracle of Fatima, Thousands gather in Washington Twp. on 90th anniversary
Pius XII Saw "Miracle of the Sun" [Catholic Caucus]

3 posted on 02/19/2010 11:43:30 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Thanks for the links.


4 posted on 02/19/2010 11:45:26 PM PST by bogusname (Banish All Liberals)
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To: Salvation

Some people say the Third Secret has not been fully made public due to its content on the end of the world.


5 posted on 02/19/2010 11:50:58 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: Salvation

Lucia herself is reported to have explicitly stated that the Third Secret contains Apocalyptic content. According to one source, when Lucia was asked about the Third Secret, she said it was “in the Gospel and in the Apocalypse”, and at one point she had even specified Apocalypse chapters 8 to 13, a range that includes Apocalypse 12:4/


6 posted on 02/19/2010 11:53:39 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: sonofstrangelove

I tend to think that too. Part of it, as I understand it, showed a man in white (the Pope) with a lot of dead bodies around him. He was climbing a hill.

Many have said that the picture represented the attempted assasination of Pope John Paul II.

There just seems to be more than we really know right now.

BTW, the message of Fatima to the three children — Pray the Rosary daily for peace. Very simple message.


7 posted on 02/19/2010 11:54:17 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: bogusname

Why is it that so many people who claim not to believe in the authority of the Catholic Church cling to the writings that were produced by members of the Catholic Church, used in the liturgy of the Catholic Church, collected by the Catholic Church, and defined by the Catholic Church to be inspired and inerrant?


8 posted on 02/19/2010 11:58:01 PM PST by Arthur McGowan (In Edward Kennedy's America, federal funding of brothels is a right, not a privilege.)
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To: Salvation
I tend to think that too. Part of it, as I understand it, showed a man in white (the Pope) with a lot of dead bodies around him. He was climbing a hill

St Malachy in his prophecy said that the last Pope would watch the the "seven hills" be destroyed
9 posted on 02/20/2010 12:00:48 AM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: sonofstrangelove

But the last Pope is supposed to be a fraudulent Pope, even anti-Pope.


10 posted on 02/20/2010 12:06:45 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Arthur McGowan

I have even deeper and much more complicated questions.


11 posted on 02/20/2010 12:07:29 AM PST by bogusname (Banish All Liberals)
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To: Salvation

Yes. We are still heading to the end times.


12 posted on 02/20/2010 12:09:52 AM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: bogusname

” Just what are we to make of these pronouncements? First of all, they’re non-biblical, as these dogmas have absolutely no scriptural support.”

Precisely.


13 posted on 02/20/2010 12:47:40 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Arthur McGowan
Why?...Most don't necessarily believe the Catholic Church writings, literagy, definitions etc. are inspired or inerrant by the Catholic Church, (I think you assume too much perhaps)... rather, the Catholic Church simply claims as such and has over the centuries manufactured whatever writings, stories and traditions necessary to support what they want people to believe is inspired and inerrant by the Catholic Church....but that doesn't make it so...though they have certainly volumes of writings every monk, priest, and bishop could write and popular to do so.

I do think there was and has been a type of prestige for having writings handed down over the generations in the Catholic church...the popular thing to do like professors in colleges etc. do...or scientists do today...much of their “fame” is not that they teach but what they write. In fact most believe what they write is far more important than what they teach. I think in the Catholic Church...for centuries....it has been the same type of mindset.

Also the Catholic Church is big on storing all these writings, as different authors build their writings on top of the others who preceded them. Like a major library of their theological thoughts mingled with history as they saw it and wanted to believe it as.

The Greeks did this as well...they enjoyed hanging out with one another and have intellectual intercourse of their thoughts and writings. We have many of their writings as well. Mohammad did that too only his was to create his very own personal religion using Jewish beliefs and tweaked it to suit his culture and what he wanted to instill in his followers...even to making his own book and claiming it Holy...and from the pagan god of that time. Many other faiths over the years have in a sense high-jacked the faith to meet their own idea of what that should be...and they still do it today. They all believe they are right too...or found the “missing” book or had it delivered to them...or some were “lost”. Then each tweaks it to suit them in order to distinguish it's real “truth” from all the others....and writes today their own writings only they are called books today.

14 posted on 02/20/2010 1:06:23 AM PST by caww
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To: caww
cling to the writings that were produced by members of the Catholic Church, used in the liturgy of the Catholic Church, collected by the Catholic Church, and defined by the Catholic Church to be inspired and inerrant

Arthur is referring to the Gospels, and to all those other books defined by the Catholic Church to be inspired and inerrant. We call that scripture 'the Bible'.

There's a reason why the Aquarian Gospel, the Babylonian Gospel and all those other Gnostic gospels aren't in the Bible. It's because the Catholic Church rejected them.

There are many outside of the formal Catholic Church who yet cling to the Bible, the body of scripture that the Church has declared inerrant. They implicitly trust the choices made by the Church, on the authority given it by Christ.

15 posted on 02/20/2010 2:19:27 AM PST by agere_contra
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To: sonofstrangelove; Canticle_of_Deborah
Some people say the Third Secret has not been fully made public due to its content on the end of the world

Ratzinger has given what must be the definitive answer on this. From an interview:

"Cardinal Ratzinger, have you read what is called the Third Secret of Fatima: i.e., the one that Sister Lucia had sent to Pope John XXIII and which the latter did not wish to make known and consigned to the Vatican archives?"

(In reply, Cardinal Ratzinger said)

"Yes, I have read it,"

(which frank response provoked a further question)

"Why has it not been revealed?"

(To this the Cardinal gave the following most instructive reply)

"Because, according to the judgement of the Popes, it adds nothing (literally 'nothing different') to what a Christian must know concerning what derives from Revelation: i.e., a radical call for conversion; the absolute importance of history; the dangers threatening the faith and the life of the Christian, and therefore of the world. And then the importance of the 'novissimi' (the last events at the end of time). If it is not made public - at least for the time being - it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational (literally: 'for sensationalism'). But the things contained in this 'Third Secret' correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and has been said again and again in many other Marian apparations, first of all that of Fatima in what is already known of what its message contains. Conversion and penitence are the essential conditions for 'salvation'."

--November 11, 1984 issue of Jesus magazine

Thanks to Canticle_of_Deborah for first posting the above

16 posted on 02/20/2010 2:33:03 AM PST by agere_contra
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To: Arthur McGowan
Why is it that so many people who claim not to believe in the authority of the Catholic Church cling to the writings that were produced by members of the Catholic Church, used in the liturgy of the Catholic Church, collected by the Catholic Church, and defined by the Catholic Church to be inspired and inerrant?

For the same reasons I don't believe in the Izlamic religion, or the Mormon religion, or the Buddhist religion...

Why would your religion falsely claim to write the scriptures and then make mincemeat out of trying to understand and teach it??? And why would your religion claim to write the scriptures when the scriptures condemn your religion in so many places???

17 posted on 02/20/2010 3:01:00 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: bogusname

These apparitions are not from God.


I suppose you have spoken to God, and he told you that.


18 posted on 02/20/2010 3:44:37 AM PST by Venturer
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To: bogusname

Those apparitions predicted the start of World War II 30 years ahead of it, of which there is excellent documentation. You may want to look into that before passing judgement.

Also, Mariology does have a very strong basis in church tradition. We Catholics view sacred tradition as just as important as the bible. If “sola scriptura” was to be the entire basis of a religion why doesn’t it clearly say to rely only and exclusively on the bible anywhere in the bible?


19 posted on 02/20/2010 4:00:04 AM PST by Nickh
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To: bogusname
Now, now. She was also spotted on a cheese sandwich:

And the owners were blessed by someone purchasing this for $10,000. If that isn't a miracle I don't know what is.

20 posted on 02/20/2010 4:01:59 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

No kidding $10,000? It can’t be Mary. I know full well she wouldn’t show up just to give someone the shaft.


21 posted on 02/20/2010 5:09:21 AM PST by bogusname (Banish All Liberals)
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To: HarleyD

The article posted along with this posting seems, at least to me, to be anti-Catholic to the extreme. This, of course, is anybody’s right. This, however. does tend to lend a sense of high urgency on the part of the author of this article to try to create an environment to relegate the Catholic Church to no more than a raging insignificant and illegal organization.

Nihil dictum est, non-dictum est.


22 posted on 02/20/2010 5:15:10 AM PST by tenthirteen
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To: Salvation

Being a ‘Momma’s boy’ myself, I get offended when heretics, who don’t have the slightest idea what they are talking about, start insulting the Mother of God.

Devotion to Our Lady reaches back far into the church. Even before the revolt. One of the Father’s of Heresy, Martin Luther, had a devotion to Mary.

Since we are talking about apparitions, I was recently studying on Our Lady of good success. Our Lady had some interesting things to say about the 20th century, when she appeared back in the late 1600’s.

http://www.olrl.org/prophecy/goodsuccess.shtml

The Rosary is the weapon!


23 posted on 02/20/2010 5:19:32 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: bogusname

You wrote:

“I have even deeper and much more complicated questions.”

I doubt that.


24 posted on 02/20/2010 5:24:14 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: Cap'n Crunch

“The Rosary is the weapon!”
No. The rosary is idolatry. You are praying to another god. Mary cannot hear your prayers. She’s dead. We will see her in heaven, but she is just an obedient human, and nothing special.

She must weep to see people elevating her to a false goddess.


26 posted on 02/20/2010 5:38:02 AM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Salvation

Pray the Rosary daily for peace. Very simple message.

Jesus instructed, “when you pray, pray like this...’our father.’ “

Pray to God, not a human.

MH recital of fact.


27 posted on 02/20/2010 5:46:14 AM PST by BannedinBostonx ( love. ...and myob. be that shining city on a hill -- rr4ever!)
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To: bogusname

Your young men shall have visions and your old men shall dream dreams.

I have no problem with visions and dreams.


28 posted on 02/20/2010 6:38:07 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: tenthirteen
The article posted along with this posting seems, at least to me, to be anti-Catholic to the extreme.

I wouldn't look on it as "anti-Catholic". Instead I would look on it as pro-Protestant. Perspective does matter.

29 posted on 02/20/2010 6:50:48 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Cyclops08

All accurate and valid points. Thanks for that excellent post.


30 posted on 02/20/2010 6:54:20 AM PST by bogusname (Banish All Liberals)
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To: agere_contra
I don't see at all that he was referencing the gospels alone as he did say, "writings produced by members of the catholic church."

They,(non-catholics)implicitly trust the choices made by the Church. As you have stated is not necessarily the case. Many do not agree with the catholic churches choices and or decisions on numerous things which I think you'll see on this thread.

One thing which disturbs me about the catholic membership and clergy is that if one disagrees with the dogmas and rituals etc. of their church they are anti-catholic. I for one am not anti-catholic but I do disagree with many of their practices and claims. It just seems if you are catholic you must abide and believe in what the church determines moreso than what Christ Himself has determined...or in fact has warned against.

31 posted on 02/20/2010 10:10:31 AM PST by caww
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To: bogusname
These apparitions are not from God.

In your "learned" opinion.

32 posted on 02/20/2010 10:11:38 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Cyclops08
Publicly flaunting one's ignorance is not a character trait you should be proud of.

I am a former catholic. I left.

Good riddance.

33 posted on 02/20/2010 10:17:33 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Cyclops08

Yes, I pretty much can agree with your view of the grave errors in the catholic church.

As well I tend to think the over-load of information, numerous rites, and barrage of relics and focus on these has caused a moving away from the centrality of Christ.

I visited the Vatican website for quite awhile recently....admiring some of the photo shots of cathedrals etc. (I appreciate old buildings.) But it was very disturbing to notice several shots of their pope ‘crowning’ a life sized figure of Mary in the center of the square there...and the pope bowing before this statue. There were other shots of popes who also did so at various statues of Mary. Just very disturbing to say the least. It’s as though she has become the queen to the pope and the go to personhead over and above Christ.


34 posted on 02/20/2010 10:42:44 AM PST by caww
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: Cap'n Crunch
One of the Father’s of Heresy, Martin Luther, had a devotion to Mary.

While Catholic no less! Heresy? As a Catholic he would have been familiar with it.

36 posted on 02/20/2010 10:52:00 AM PST by xone
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To: BannedinBostonx

“Jesus instructed, ‘when you pray, pray like this...”our father.” “

I’m not sure if you know this or not, but there are six “our father” prayers said in a standard 5 decade rosary.

Freegards


37 posted on 02/20/2010 11:28:04 AM PST by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed Says Keep the Faith!)
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To: Cyclops08

Excellent. The parallel heretical religious system is antichrist.


38 posted on 02/20/2010 11:51:46 AM PST by esquirette (If we do not know our own worldview, we will accept theirs.)
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To: Cyclops08

“”Catholics have added so much bogus bologna to the Bible its ridiculous.””

Do you not realize that your Bible is from inspired tradition of the Catholic Church and the Church predates the New Testament? Thus,all dogmatic Catholic teaching is just as inspired by God as the tradition of the Bible itself

Here is lesson for you from the late Blessed Fulton Sheen...

“When finally the Gospels were written, they recorded a tradition; they did not create it. It was already there. After a while men had decided to put in writing this living tradition and voice, which explains the beginning of the Gospel of Luke: “That thou mayest know the verity of those words in which thou hast been instructed.” The Gospels did not start the Church; the Church started the Gospels. The Church did not come out of the Gospels; the Gospels came out of the Church.

The Church preceded the New Testament, not the New Testament the Church. First there was not a Constitution of the United States, and then Americans, who in the light of that Constitution decided to form a government and a nation. The Founding Fathers preceded the Foundation; so the Mystical Body of Christ preceded the reports written later by inspired secretaries. And incidentally, how do we know the Bible is inspired? It does not say so! Matthew does not conclude his Gospel saying: “Be sure to read Mark; he is inspired, too.” Furthermore, the Bible is not a book. It is a collection of seventy-two books in all. It is worth opening a Bible to see if we have them all and have not been cheated. These widely scattered books cannot bear witness to their own inspiration. It is only by something outside the Bible that we know it is inspired. We will not go into that point now, but it is worth looking into.
When finally the Gospels were written, they did not prove what Christians believed, nor did they initiate that belief; they merely recorded in a systematic manner what they already knew. Men did not believe in the Crucifixion because the Gospels said there was a Crucifixion; they wrote down the story of the Crucifixion, because they already believed in it. The Church did not come to believe in the Virgin Birth because the Gospels tell us there is a Virgin Birth; it was because the living word of God in His Mystical Body already believed it that they set it down in the Gospels.

A second fact to be remembered is that this Mystical Body of Christ has a memory, as we have a memory. If our physical life extends back forty-five years, we can remember two world wars. We speak of them as a living witness, not from the books written but from having lived through them, and maybe through having fought in them. We may later on have read the books about these two world wars. Yet they are not the beginning of our knowledge but only a recalling or a deepening of what we already knew. In like manner, Our Lord is the Head of the new humanity, the new fellowship, or the spiritual organism that St. Paul calls His Mystical Body. To this Mystical Body Christ is associated, first in His Apostles, and then in all who believed in Him throughout the centuries. This Body, too, has a memory, reaching back to Christ. It knows that the Resurrection is true because she, the Church, was there. The cells of our body change every seven years, but we are the same personality. The cells of the Mystical Body, which we are, too, may change every fifty or sixty years; yet it is still Christ that lives in that Body.

The Church knows that Christ rose from the dead and that the Spirit descended on the Apostles on Pentecost because the Church was there from the beginning. The Church has a memory of over nineteen hundred years, and this memory is called tradition. The Apostles’ Creed, which was an accepted formula in the Church around the year 100 and which summed up the Apostles’ teaching, is as follows:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, Our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right Hand of God, the Father Almighty, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

Note the words “conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary.” The truths expressed in the Creed were essential for entrance into the Church. Everyone who was baptized early into Christ’s Mystical Body believed in each of these truths. The Virgin Birth was as much an accepted Truth as the Resurrection in the first Christian centuries.
There is not one single quotation of the Gospels in the Creed. The early members of the Church were recording the early Christian tradition, of which the Gospels were only the literary expression. There are also several volumes of writings from within the first hundred years of the life of Our Lord; for example, the writing of St. Clement, one of the successors of St. Peter, who wrote in the year 92; and also Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna, one of the successors of John the Evangelist; and Irenaeus, who names the twelve bishops of Rome; and Ignatius of Antioch, who said that he wanted to be “ground like wheat between the jaws of lions to be a living bread for His Savior.”

Many of these writers do not quote the Gospels. We have fifteen hundred lines from Clement, and yet only two texts of his are from the New Testament; he was recording the Christian beliefs, accepted by the witnesses of Christ. Polycarp quotes the Gospel only three times, for he lived on familiar terms with many who had seen Our Lord, and he wrote what he knew and had learned from the Apostles. Ignatius of Antioch (who lived within seventy years of the life of Our Lord) wrote: “Our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived of the Holy Spirit… and was truly born of a virgin.”

There is a double evidence from which we can draw, to learn true Christian teaching: one is the revealed Word of God in the Scriptures—the other is the continuous teaching of the Church from the very beginning, that is, her living memory. Just as lawyers, in proving a point, use not only the bare statement of law but also the way the courts have understood and interpreted that law, so too, the Scriptures are not a dead letter but are living and breathing in the beautiful context of a spiritual fellowship.

In the year 108, there were still many living who had been boys when Our Lord was crucified—who as young men saw and conversed with the Apostles before they were martyred—and who, in scattered parts of the Roman Empire, were already familiar with the Christian tradition passed on through the Church. Some of the other Apostles were not martyred until later—John did not die until the year 100. Some of these early writers were closer to John and other Apostles than we are to World War I. And this much is certain: if the Apostles, who lived with Our Lord and who heard Him speak on the open hills and in the temple—who listened to Him preach on the Kingdom of God forty days after His Resurrection—did not teach the Virgin Birth, no one else would have taught it. It was too unusual an idea for men to make up; it would have been ordinarily too difficult for acceptance if it had not come from Christ Himself!” -Archbishop Fulton Sheen


39 posted on 02/20/2010 12:27:16 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: xone

Martin Luther, Founder of the Reform, Speaks on Mary
In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:

“There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

Luther gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of “Spiritual Mother” for Christians:

It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother .. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

Martin Luther had the belief of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, Luther’s words follow:

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {”Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).

Martin Luther on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
Here are some of the founders of refom commenting on Mary:

Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
{Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .

{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .

When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.

{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }

Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

“. . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.”
Ref: Luther’s Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968

“. . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.”
Ref: Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther’s Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)

“Christ our Savior was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb. . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
(REf: On the Gospel of St. John: Luther’s Works, vol. 22. p. 23, ed. Jaroslav Pelican, Concordia, 1957)

“Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees.” (From the Commentary on the Magnificat.)

Commentaries on Luther
“. . . in the resolutions of the 95 theses Luther rejects every blasphemy against the Virgin, and thinks that one should ask for pardon for any evil said or thought against her.” (Ref: Wm. J. Cole, “Was Luther a Devotee of Mary?” in Marian Studies 1970, p. 116:)

“In Luther’s Explanation of the Magnificat in 1521, he begins and ends with an invocation to Mary, which Wright feels compelled to call ‘surprising’”.
(David F. Wright, Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspecive, London: Marshall Pickering, 1989, p. 178, Cited from Faith & Reason, Spring 1994, p. 6.)

Martin Luther defends the Eucharist
In 1529 Martin Luther engaged the question of transubstantiation in the famous conference at Marburg with Zwingli and other Swiss theologians; he maintained his view that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

Other Reformers on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

John Calvin

Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.
{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}
[On Matt 1:25:]

The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.

{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}
Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.

{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

Huldreich Zwingli

He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - ‘Hail Mary’ . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .

‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.

{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}

Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’
{Thurian, ibid., p.76}

I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.
{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}

Heinrich Bullinger

Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary’s perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: ‘In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.’ She is ‘the most unique and the noblest member’ of the Christian community . . .

‘The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.’

{In Hilda Graef, Mary: A history of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}

John Wesley (Founder of Methodism)

The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.


41 posted on 02/20/2010 12:55:37 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

All thats nice but its the words of men. It is not biblical.

MARY WAS A SINNER LIKE ME! The only thing that sets her apart was she was obedient to God.

Prayer to Mary is wasted breath. No one in the Bible ever prayed to the deceased.

You guys are elevating a normal woman to godhood.
Stop it.


42 posted on 02/20/2010 1:02:27 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Cyclops08

Bro, check out my post #41. Then go do your own research. Not only did Luther defend catholic doctrine about Mary, so did alot of his heretical constituents.


43 posted on 02/20/2010 1:03:09 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cyclops08

Hang on. You say you were a former catholic? And you don’t know the church teaching on Our Lady?

You weren’t paying much attention.


44 posted on 02/20/2010 1:05:25 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cyclops08

If you reject catholic teaching, then you are a protestant. Your protestant ‘church fathers’ defended alot of catholic doctrine about Mary.

So, where does that leave you? You disagree with the catholics and the protestant revolters.


45 posted on 02/20/2010 1:09:02 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

“Bro, check out my post #41. Then go do your own research. Not only did Luther defend catholic doctrine about Mary, so did alot of his heretical constituents.”

Post 42 WAS my response to #41.

As to doing my own research, I won’t look farther than my own Bible. If its not in the Bible, Its not true.

Purgatory isn’t in the Bible. Its a fable. false. a lie.

Nowhere is Mary said to be sinless or a perpetual virgin.
and no one has shown me a single verse that shows prayers offered to the deceased.

Mary is a sinner like me. We will see her in heaven because she was obedient to God. She is not a co-redemtrix, she is just my sister in Christ: nothing more.

You catholic apologists need to get some BIBLICAL backing for your arguments. Words of this guy or that mean nothing.


46 posted on 02/20/2010 1:09:35 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Arthur McGowan

I’ve refrained from pinging Fr. Gruner. His folks in NY23 have managed to join the coalition which includes the SSPX chapel in Potsdam in support of local Methodist Doug Hoffman.

Talk about a fragile coalition that could disintegrate with one false move ...


47 posted on 02/20/2010 1:12:05 PM PST by campaignPete R-CT ("pray without ceasing" - Paul of Tarsus)
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To: Cap'n Crunch
First I doubt Christians believe Mary is NOT in heaven. After that ML's positions on Mary have been answered like this on another thread:

A personal opinion of brother Martin that isn't substantiated by Scripture so it isn't a part of the Lutheran Confessions. But I personally don't hold it against him since he was a Catholic, just an ingrained habit.

Regarding Real Presence: Confessional Lutherans believe in the Real Presence, not transubstantiation.

lcm.org

48 posted on 02/20/2010 1:13:21 PM PST by xone
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To: Cyclops08

I’m sure you’ve heard all this before. You know the catholic church is responsible for you having a bible?

Do you believe in the Trinity? You know the word Trinity is not in the bible?

What did the people do for the first few hundered years when there was no bible?

References to purgatory are in the bible. You believe in the Trinity and that’s not in the bible, yet there are references to the Trinity.

You, in a sense, are a ‘co-redemptor’, you co-operate in the work of redemption. Which Christ sent us out to do. You also, in a sense, are a ‘mediator’ when you agree to pray for other people. What’s the big deal? Just because you don’t understand it, and I’m sure you haven’t researched it, doesn’t mean it’s not biblically based.

And, you know, Luther even expounded on what happens when everybody interprets scripture for themselves, which you have done. How unfortunate, you don’t have the fullness of Christian faith. If you only knew what you were missing.


49 posted on 02/20/2010 1:19:45 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: bogusname
These apparitions are not from God.

Are you God?

Having said that, it is possible that at least some of the Medjugorje apparitions - if anything supernatural occurred there at all - are not from God.

Approved apparitions are another matter.

50 posted on 02/20/2010 1:24:50 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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