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The Lady of Fatima: Has Mary Appeared in Visions?
Christian Research Institute ^ | Hank Hanegraaff

Posted on 02/19/2010 11:32:44 PM PST by bogusname

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To: Cap'n Crunch

Still not a single Biblical reference in your argument.

Sorry. The Catholics don’t get to just make stuff up out of thin air and call it tradition.

The ONLY truth is in the Bible.
Where is the verse showing people praying to the deceased?
its not there.

Where is the part that tells us Mary was without sin or a virgin after the birth of Jesus?
Its not there. it was just made up. its false. a lie.


51 posted on 02/20/2010 1:25:41 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: xone

Well, that leaves one in somewhat of a pickle doesn’t it? Luther, in his own words and writings, said some pretty catholic things about Mary. As did his heretical brethren. After they left the church.

And now you are saying that it was just one of his/their ‘personal opinions?’ Is that right?

Then Luther was either wrong or he was right. If he was wrong, what else was he/they wrong about? If he was right, where does that leave you?


52 posted on 02/20/2010 1:25:50 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

I give Luther a pass on this because he came from a Catholic school and was taught a lot of heresy in the name of tradition.

Bottom line: YOU can’t show a single Bible verse to promote your argument.
Without scripture your just a wanna be.


53 posted on 02/20/2010 1:28:16 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Cyclops08

I’ll point out the scripture verses. But I notice you are dodging my other points.

What did the people do for several hundred years when there were no bibles?

Do you believe in the Trinity? Trinity is not in the bible.

Without the catholic church, you would have no bible.


54 posted on 02/20/2010 1:31:22 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Well, that leaves one in somewhat of a pickle doesn’t it? Luther, in his own words and writings, said some pretty catholic things about Mary.

He was a Catholic his whole life till then.. Find me the same type of quote AFTER the Lutheran Confessions were published. Doctrine FROM Scripture, you won't.

If he was right, where does that leave you?

Unlike Catholicism that has the opportunity to have doctrine codified by one man, Confessional Lutherans don't, if it isn't in Scripture it can't be doctrinal. God's Word IS right and Truth. I don't have to worry about whether or not Luther himself was infallible in the proposing of doctrine. I have no problem stating that Luther WAS wrong about his Marian views, his later work proved it.

55 posted on 02/20/2010 1:34:14 PM PST by xone
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To: Cyclops08

Oh, how nice that you are giving Luther a pass. You know he said those things up until the time he died?

So, was Luther wrong or right?

If he was right, why don’t you believe it? If he was wrong, what else did he get wrong? You can’t have it both ways.


56 posted on 02/20/2010 1:34:20 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Find me the same type of quote AFTER the Lutheran Confessions were published. Doctrine FROM Scripture, you won't.

You can’t have it both ways.

Nor can you.

57 posted on 02/20/2010 1:37:34 PM PST by xone
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To: Cap'n Crunch

The earliest gospel was Mark, a mere 80 years after Christ.
BUT we have fragments of Mark in letters to and from the various churches from far earlier. A complete gospel of Mark is can be put together from these letters a mere 40 years after Christ. AND fragments exist even earlier.

So the early Christians did NOT rely on “tradition.” they had the Gospel. That is history my friend, not tradition.

My source: Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell. He was an atheist that set out to prove the bible wrong. He ended up converting when the truth could not be ignored.

Now its your turn, show me scripture.


58 posted on 02/20/2010 1:39:10 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: xone

Regarding Real Presence: they say if you search for the truth with your whole heart mind and soul, that you will find it.

But the Bible Answer Man at CRI and his followers don’t give much attention to John chapter 6.


59 posted on 02/20/2010 1:39:37 PM PST by campaignPete R-CT ("pray without ceasing" - Paul of Tarsus)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

Confessional Lutheranism does not rely on Martin Luther’s personal views, it never has. It has Biblically based doctrine.


60 posted on 02/20/2010 1:40:54 PM PST by xone
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To: campaignPete R-CT

I don’t follow you.


61 posted on 02/20/2010 1:42:07 PM PST by xone
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To: xone

Then what your saying is Luther had his own opinions. And that is all they are. Luther had no authority.

If Luther had no authority, why bother listening to anything he said? I wouldn’t waste my time if that was the case.

I have to go pick up a pizza. But here’s a bit from wikipedia and Martin Luther:

Martin Luther believed that Mary did not have other children, and did not have any marital relations with Joseph,[25] maintaining, that the brothers mentioned were cousins.[26] This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.

So, was Luther wrong or right? And what else was he wrong or right about?


62 posted on 02/20/2010 1:42:17 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cyclops08

Do you think EVERY Christian in the year 80 had their own printed bible? How many were there? How many people had their own?

I’d be willing to guess. .000000000001 percent? 1 out of 5 million?


63 posted on 02/20/2010 1:44:26 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Then what your saying is Luther had his own opinions. And that is all they are. Luther had no authority.

God's Word was Luther's authority.

wikipedia

lcms.org

64 posted on 02/20/2010 1:46:04 PM PST by xone
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To: Cap'n Crunch

Martin Luther was just a man. He did not author scripture. Men can follow God and be in error. Popes are perfect examples of that.

I know you think you have a gotcha moment here, but please don’t let this distract you from presenting scripture to back your arguments.

I’m still waiting for you to show me a single verse or people praying to the deceased.


65 posted on 02/20/2010 1:47:41 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: steve86

Steve, you’ve missed the latest advances in theology. It has to do with the “Tethering doctrine”. Saints are alive in Heaven, but cannot move outside of the heavenly boundaries.

Spiritual bungee cords.


66 posted on 02/20/2010 1:48:26 PM PST by campaignPete R-CT ("pray without ceasing" - Paul of Tarsus)
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To: xone
I don’t follow you.

CRI Bible Answer Man is not interested in the Real Presence (John ch. 6)
67 posted on 02/20/2010 1:52:57 PM PST by campaignPete R-CT ("pray without ceasing" - Paul of Tarsus)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

“Do you think EVERY Christian in the year 80 had their own printed bible?”

I’m answering your question. as you DEMANDED. No, every Christian did not have their own Gospel, but likely every church had one.

My point is: God’s word was available to the people thru the pulpit at the very least. they were NOT dependent on “Tradition.”

Hence the Catholic tradition of just making stuff up is bogus.

Buy any indulgences lately? Thats a catholic tradition. For a donation to the church you are pre-forgiven to sin in places like brothels for 24 hours. This is history too.

Its why tradition is NOT the same as scripture. Tradition is as corruptible as man. Scripture is inspired of God.

Why should I trust the Catholics on Mary when they sold indulgences?
Tradition. there ya go.


68 posted on 02/20/2010 1:54:51 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Cyclops08

Oh, pizza is a wonderful thing.

Anyway. What is your aversion to tradition? Here are some scripture references to tradition:

Scripture and Tradition

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).

“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13-14).

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess. 2:15)

“You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:1-2).

“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20-21).

“‘Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete” (2 John 12).

The early Christians had no bibles. They had the word of the Apostles. The words and the traditions.


69 posted on 02/20/2010 2:10:21 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: campaignPete R-CT
CRI Bible Answer Man is not interested in the Real Presence (John ch. 6)

If he is, I didn't find it.

70 posted on 02/20/2010 2:10:39 PM PST by xone
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To: Cyclops08

Here’s a link to wikipedia, prayers for the dead. Jewish, tradition, protestant, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_the_dead


71 posted on 02/20/2010 2:16:44 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cyclops08

And by the way, your still dodging. I’ve provided some scripture references. You still haven’t answered the questions I asked.


72 posted on 02/20/2010 2:17:45 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Cyclops08

“Martin Luther was just a man. He did not author scripture.”

Here’s another problem for you. Your right, Martin Luther did no author scripture. Men wrote down the scriptures. Catholic men.

In fact, Jesus did not even promise to leave us a bible, Jesus promised to leave us a church. And, that church is the catholic church.


73 posted on 02/20/2010 2:22:17 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: xone

Martin Luther believed that Mary did not have other children, and did not have any marital relations with Joseph,[25] maintaining, that the brothers mentioned were cousins.[26] This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.


74 posted on 02/20/2010 2:28:06 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Iscool
And why would your religion claim to write the scriptures when the scriptures condemn your religion in so many places???

I have an even better question. If the scriptures condemn our religion "in so many places", why did we bother to preserve them for 1500 years so that your religion could misuse them to slander ours?

75 posted on 02/20/2010 2:50:17 PM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Cyclops08
The ONLY truth is in the Bible.

The Bible itself rejects that idea.

76 posted on 02/20/2010 2:51:04 PM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Campion

I have an even better question. If the scriptures condemn our religion “in so many places”, why did we bother to preserve them for 1500 years so that your religion could misuse them to slander ours?

That is a good question. I’m going to have to borrow that one.


77 posted on 02/20/2010 2:54:23 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: Iscool
And why would your religion claim to write the scriptures when the scriptures condemn your religion in so many places???

Actually, it is only your own personal interpretation of Scriptures that condemn the Catholic Church.

And why in the world should anyone care about that?

78 posted on 02/20/2010 2:54:43 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: bogusname
These apparitions are not from God.

Your denial is not from God.

79 posted on 02/20/2010 2:55:34 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Cyclops08
Mary cannot hear your prayers. She’s dead.

I can believe you, or I can believe the Church founded by Christ.

She must weep to see people elevating her to a false goddess.

Wait: you said she's dead. What gives?

80 posted on 02/20/2010 2:58:28 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Cyclops08
Then perhaps you could point out to me a single instance of anyone in the Bible praying to dead people.

Your Bible is redacted.

Even in this concatenated form, it still does not say sola Scriptura.

81 posted on 02/20/2010 2:59:57 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Cyclops08
In all your long dissertation, you have shown not a single verse that shows anyone praying to the dead.

In all your long dissertations, you have not shown a single verse that dictates sola Scriptura.

82 posted on 02/20/2010 3:02:29 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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Comment #83 Removed by Moderator

To: Cyclops08
I won’t look farther than my own Bible. If its not in the Bible, Its not true.

Since sola Scriptura is not in the Bible, it's not true....yet you insist on it, a false tradition of men.

84 posted on 02/20/2010 3:04:52 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Cyclops08
Buy any indulgences lately? Thats a catholic tradition.

Nope.

85 posted on 02/20/2010 3:07:19 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

Here’s a link to wikipedia, prayers for the dead. Jewish, tradition, protestant, etc.
Thats prayers for the dead, not prayers TO the dead.

Big difference there, Tex.


86 posted on 02/20/2010 3:11:27 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Cap'n Crunch

Men wrote down the scriptures. Catholic men.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

No silly. Men filled with the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible.
The early church did not call itself catholic and there was no pope.


87 posted on 02/20/2010 3:18:05 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Martin Luther believed...etc.

Again, Luther WAS a Catholic. From: lcms.org

Lutherans today are not bound to Luther's personal views regarding how this was accomplished; in any event, it is clear from Luther's other and later writings on Mary that he did not hold to the view that Mary was personally devoid of all sin (which would mean that she would have had no need of forgiveness or salvation). Luther also held to the semper virgo (the perpetual virginity) of Mary. This, again, is a personal view to which Lutherans today are not bound. Scripture is not clear on this matter, and Lutherans do not regard it as a theological issue.

The Lutheran Confessions aren't based upon what ML believed but upon what Scripture says.

88 posted on 02/20/2010 3:22:07 PM PST by xone
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To: Cap'n Crunch

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess. 2:15)

This is NOT an excuse to just make stuff up. If prayer to the saints was a doctrine from God, then He would have told us so in His Word.

As it stands, you have failed. You cannot show any scripture where people have prayed to the deceased. Instead you must twist scripture around to enable corruptible men to add to the Word of God.

Men do not have that power. If this verse was true you would be defending the sales of indulgences.

Traditions like prayers to the saints are from satan himself. Doctrines of demons.

I would only hope you someday venerate the Bible as much as you revere man-made tradition.

As you have failed to provide scriptural evidence, then I win this argument.


89 posted on 02/20/2010 3:27:37 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: bogusname
These apparitions are not from God.

Yes, they are, my son!

90 posted on 02/20/2010 3:28:33 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: Revolting cat!

“These apparitions are not from God.

Yes, they are, my son!”

No they are not. Can you provide a single biblical example where God used a dead person to reveal divine revelation?

You can’t. God has always reserved that for Himself.
Look at the parable of the rich man and the poor man. The rich man (in hell) asked Abraham to send the poor man to warn his brothers. Abraham said, no. They have the prophets, if they do not believe them, neither would they believe should a man return from the dead.

This Marian apparition is a satanic deception. end of story.


91 posted on 02/20/2010 3:46:32 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Cyclops08

Jeez, it’s so easy to yank the chain of you Protesters!


92 posted on 02/20/2010 4:03:18 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: Cyclops08

I agree...thanks for your good opst.


93 posted on 02/20/2010 4:32:31 PM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Cyclops08

I’ve showed them, you’ve rejected them.

‘You cannot show any scripture where people have prayed to the deceased’

When Jesus was transfigured and speaking to Moses and Elijah, hadn’t Moses been dead for awhile? Does that count as someone who was dead conversing with someone who was living? Isn’t that in the bible? And Elijah, taken up to heaven, was he then appearing to Christ at the transfiguration?

Two perfect examples, from scripture, right there. Moses, who was dead, speaking with Christ. Elijah, taken up to heaven, appearing on earth with Christ.

?


94 posted on 02/20/2010 4:48:07 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch (Rush Limbaugh, the Winston Churchill of our time)
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To: caww

Anyone opening the New Testament for the first time will find a book that does not attempt a systematic explication of the Gospel, but is a collections of writings loosely related. It alluded to people and events unknown to us. We do not find the names of the authors of of many of these texts in the writings themselves. It cries out for an authoritative interpreter, so that we must say with the Ethyiopian encountered by the deacon Phillip. “How shall I know what this means unless someone interpret it.” We do know by reading it that there is something called the Church. We do know from history that the Catholic Church has existed since that time, has a history that you deride. We do know that Protestant bodies have existed for less than 500 of those years and have a history of their own, with what Catholics can claim, inventions of their own,” in addition to the ones that stand in direct opposition to papal authority, and which cannot be traced back to the time of Christ.


95 posted on 02/20/2010 4:50:12 PM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Cyclops08

“The Only truth is in the Bible.” How do you know this? The Statement is certainly not in the Bible. In any case, we say that what is in the Bible is tradition—that which is handed down—because Jesus did not write it, and only tradition tells us who did.


96 posted on 02/20/2010 5:02:10 PM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: xone

Of course it does. It depends on Luther’s approach to Scripture, his point of view which was adopted by his disciples.


97 posted on 02/20/2010 5:04:02 PM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

“When Jesus was transfigured and speaking to Moses and Elijah, hadn’t Moses been dead for awhile? Does that count as someone who was dead conversing with someone who was living? Isn’t that in the bible? And Elijah, taken up to heaven, was he then appearing to Christ at the transfiguration?”

No. No one PRAYED to Moses or Elijah. No one has since.
The two men were physically THERE. They did not intercede for Jesus and God.

You still FAIL. There is NO account of people praying to the deceased in the Bible.

this is why people reject Catholicism. You cannot support your claims with scripture.


98 posted on 02/20/2010 5:04:14 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: RobbyS

“The Only truth is in the Bible.” How do you know this? The Statement is certainly not in the Bible. In any case, we say that what is in the Bible is tradition—that which is handed down—because Jesus did not write it, and only tradition tells us who did.”

WRONG.
Why do you diminish the power of God? God INSPIRED the Bible. God wrote through men. God divinely protected and kept The record of His word exactly as he wants it.

If tradition is not represented in scripture, it is of satan, not God.


99 posted on 02/20/2010 5:07:31 PM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Cyclops08

You assume that the Saints are dead to this world and indifferent to our concerns. Does death cut the living off from the dead? Are we no longer in communion with those who have gone to sleep in the Lord? Does your mother stop being your mother when she dies? If she can pray for you in this life, cannot she pray for you and those who remain on earth?


100 posted on 02/20/2010 5:09:08 PM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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