Skip to comments.Mormons and Catholics Join Forces [Ecumenical]
Posted on 02/28/2010 4:35:54 PM PST by ComeUpHigher
Francis Eugene George is not just a cardinal. He is also president of the United States conference of catholic bishops and sets the tone and direction for church policy and position in the country. His comments, therefore, on the positive attributes of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), more commonly known as Mormons, seem surprising given the enormous theological and demographic differences between the two groups. Or do his words herald a spirit of co-operation among disparate religious movements in the fight against secularism?
(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...
They don’t have to agree to be one theologically, for heaven’s sake — just to join hands fighting common enemies. Makes sense to me. The Mormons were front and center here in California fighting for Prop 8/ sodomite marriages.
Satan works overtime making sure that there is fighting within Families, Fighting between church members and fighting between Christian churches. His success depends on in-fighting.
But it's disingenuous of George to play up the similarities.
Cardinal George wasn't calling for integration, but for a mutual support network based on commonly held values between the two groups.
This terrifies the secular humanists. It is good for the world that these two and other like-minded religious groups team up to stem the tide.
It is killing our children and government schooling is driving morality off a cliff.
Stand together for families
Stand together against abortion
That’s how I take it.
It wasn’t intended any other way nor does the article indicate otherwise. The title is from the article. So they have “joined forces” in defending traditional families and fighting abortion. Good thing in my opinion, don’t you agree?
The Catholic church is not recognizing them as Christian, they are only working with them.
That is an excellent statement. I know a priest visiting us on a mission who will be very interested in this.
I heard the Cardinal’s speech on BYU-TV today. It was great! I think he was courageous.
Whew! What a relief. The Catholic Church is “only” working with the Mormon Church to defend traditional marriage and fight abortion. Heaven forbid that in joining forces with a “cult” to defend traditional marriage and fight against abortion the Catholics do anything that would give legitimacy to Mormons as Christians.
all the while the mormons thinking in the back of their minds - apostate professor of the great harlot
Of course it must be a relief if you did not know that.
So they have joined forces ...fighting abortion.
Where does it say that in the article ???
While the Catholic Church has always been pro-life...
The mormons have not...
“We have no revelation on abortion” The mormons need a so called “revelation” to know that abortion is murder ???
The Mormon church accepts abortion for a number of reasons. The Church Handbook of Instructions, approved in September, 1998, states that abortion may be performed in the following circumstances: pregnancy resulting from rape or incest; a competent physician says the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy; or a competent physician says that the “fetus” has severe defects that will not allow the “baby” to survive beyond birth. In any case, the persons responsible must first consult with their church leader and receive Gods approval in prayer
This same Handbook, the official policies of the Mormon church to be followed by all local church leaders throughout the world, also claims: “It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body”
Previous teachings by former Mormon prophets referred to the unborn child as “a child,” “a baby,” a “human being,” and decried abortion as “killing,” “a grievous sin,” “a damnable practice.” Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet who died in 1985, taught, “We have repeatedly affirmed the position of the church in unalterably opposing all abortions” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 189).
It appears that this “unalterable” position, constantly “affirmed,” is just another in a series of doctrinal and moral teachings that Mormons have reworded, reworked, rescinded, or renegedthough never officially renounced. Such is the quality of the Mormon belief in “continuing revelation.” Dont expect dogmatic or ethical consistency. Rather, look for expediency and conformity with “the times.”
A further statement in the Handbook says: “The church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion (156).” While the Mormon prophet claims to speak the mind and will of God, he can neither figure out when the unborn child becomes human or if it is Gods desire that we protect the unborn unconditionally.
If it upsets you that the Catholics have joined forces with the Mormons on certain social issues, please explain why. Otherwise, your efforts to hijack the thread aren’t appreciated.
CUH - you may say that on a Caucus thread, but this is an OPEN thread. If confused you may need to re-read the RM’s policy statement
Cardinal George praised the Mormons for their work with Catholics to protect the conscience rights of health care providers and institutions that do not want to participate in abortion or assisted suicide and to defend marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
"When the government fails to protect the consciences of its citizens, it falls to religious bodies to defend them," he said.
True religious freedom means not just freedom to worship or "individual conscience rights as long as you don't make anyone unhappy," but the right to "influence the public square," he added.
The cardinal said Catholics and Mormons shared not only a common understanding of religious freedom, but the common experience of growing from a small, sometimes persecuted religious minority to larger communities of 67 million U.S. Catholics and about 6 million U.S. Mormons today.
"Both our communities have prospered in a nation that respects religious freedom and recognizes that government should never stand between its citizens and almighty God," he said.
Catholics and Mormons also have stood side by side in efforts against "the degradations associated with pornography" and in promoting "respect for the lives of those waiting to be born and respect for marriage," he added.
If Cardinal George's statements upset you regarding the efforts of Catholics and Mormons to work together on social issues, please explain why. Otherwise, I would appreciate your not hijacking the thread.
If it upsets you that the Catholics have joined forces with the Mormons on certain social issues,
- - - - - - -
What upsets me is the the two faced attitude that the LDS have regarding Catholics (and Christians in general but particularly the Catholics) so this ‘love fest’ rings hollow.
They are happy to have the Catholics ‘join forces’ in social matters the whole while their leaders have called the Catholic church the “Great and abominiable whore” and I have heard LDS refer to Catholics (as well as all other Christian groups) derogatorily.
There are more quotes (and more recent quotes) if needed but these, IMO are the most specific.
“The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,’ has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.’
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811
“Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their “long robes,” among the Jews, are equally included in their mother’s family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God.”
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939
“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255
“A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names.”
“Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions.”
“But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left.”
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41
“How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations.”
“She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, “The whore of all the earth,” making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain.”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346
“Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called “Babylon the Great””The whore of all the earth,” with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learnedthe greatthe mightythe kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms.”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109
“The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven.”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85
I wasn’t aware of the designation distinction. My post wast intended to be ecumenical as my topics distinction shows it under “Ecumenicism.” I would like the thread to be designated as such and would appreciate that postings be kept to the subject.
By copy of this post to the religion moderator, I would appreciate the designation being changed from “open” to “ecumnecial.” Thank you.
This was intended as an ecumencial thread. If you have criticisms of the Catholics and Mormons joining forces on social issues, please explain why; otherwise, I would appreciate your not using this thread as a reason to attack the LDS faith.
From this point forward on the thread, NO ANTAGONISM is allowed.
It is not listed as such, nor did you make any intentions of that sort in the first post. There is a caucus thread already, If you want unchallenged posts - go there.
As I stated, I didn’t realize the distinction needed to be made in the first post. If you look at the “topics” listed immediately after the thread, it includes the following:
“TOPICS: Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Religion & Politics; Click to Add Topic”
I designated one of the topics as “ecumenism” when I posted the article and I don’t appreciate your claiming I didn’t have any such intention.
And I stated my criticism. I disagree with the Catholics (whom I consider Christians) to ‘join forces’ with a non-Christian group (the LDS) who thinks they are ‘the whore of Babylon’. And I disagree with the LDS claiming to be in agreement with the Catholics while they talk about them behind their back.
And there is also the insinuation that only the LDS and the Catholics are opposed to abortion and same sex marriage. That is not true in the least.
well , it didn’t happen and we are better served with an open topic - two restrictive threads are worthless.
At least Oprah will be happy...
At least Fred Phelps will be unhappy . . .
Sort of . . . until he finds another thread
This is an ecumenical thread
It is not OPEN this us an ecumentical thread
Ecumenic threads are closed to antagonism.
To antagonize is to incur or to provoke hostility in others.
Unlike the caucus threads, the article and reply posts of an ecumenic thread can discuss more than one belief, but antagonism is not tolerable.
More leeway is granted to what is acceptable in the text of the article than to the reply posts. For example, the term gross error in an article will not prevent an ecumenical discussion, but a poster should not use that term in his reply because it is antagonistic. As another example, the article might be a passage from the Bible which would be antagonistic to Jews. The passage should be considered historical fact and a legitimate subject for an ecumenic discussion. The reply posts however must not be antagonistic.
Contrasting of beliefs or even criticisms can be made without provoking hostilities. But when in doubt, only post what you are for and not what you are against. Or ask questions.
Ecumenical threads will be moderated on a where theres smoke, theres fire basis. When hostility has broken out on an ecumenic thread, Ill be looking for the source.
Therefore anti posters must not try to finesse the guidelines by asking loaded questions, using inflammatory taglines, gratuitous quote mining or trying to slip in an anti or ex article under the color of the ecumenic tag.
Posters who try to tear down others beliefs or use subterfuge to accomplish the same goal are the disrupters on ecumenic threads and will be booted from the thread and/or suspended.
WE may or may not have 'problems' with it; but the Official MORMON take on it seems to be quite clear.
I guess since I posted replies to statements that were BEFORE this goal post move; I assume they’ll be allowed to stay?
I remember an old saying about the pavement material used on the road to Hell...
Goodbye, my friends.
Stand together against abortion
Thats how I take it.
I guess since I posted replies to statements that were BEFORE this goal post move; I assume theyll be allowed to stay?
Your post is dated Mar 1 the Mods post is dated Feb 28
Well Elsie who needs to reads minds in the future what is behind your post past present and future when you yourself admit your intentions!
39 posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:34:25 AM by Elsie
What matters is that it is “ecumenical” now. So no more antagonism on this thread.
30 posted on Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:12:25 PM by Religion Moderator
CUH - I was not attempting to hijack the thread - I was pointing out that with such differences in underlying beliefs about the nature of God, it is amazing that these two groups are working together.
In the spirit of ecumenicism, I am sorry if my referring to those differences upsets you. However, it is simply a fact. Make of it what you will, it is not a small fact.
2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Your reference to the differences doesn’t upset me at all. I actually find your theological flailing on other threads entertaining for a variety of reasons. However, what is disappointing (but not surprising) is seeing the lack of civility and concerted effort at divisiveness when posters such as you attempt to hijack the thread as yet another opportunity to attack when I’ve merely posted an ecumenical thread showing unity amongst the Catholic Church and Mormon Church on social issues.
Antagonistic posts before that will not be removed.