Posted on 03/03/2010 10:14:34 AM PST by NYer
“Organizations of men do tend to suffer from entropy. Unless, of course, Christ Himself promised that he would build his church on that rock, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it . . .
Literal interpretation of Scripture is highly selective.”
Where you guys lose me is where you interject your man created organization into Christs Church. You are placing half of Christendom, Protestant and Orthodox into the camp of the barbarian, a very Roman thing to do. While I see Catholics as saved by the blood of Christ, you don’t see my acceptance of Christ and my decision to follow him as enough. You are Christ plus. Mormons are Christ plus. I am Christ is enough.
It's a good start. Of interest is the 2000 years of human history in holy pursuit of his teachings, otherwise known as the Tradition and Living Magisterium of the Church.
“2000 years of human history in holy pursuit of his teachings,”
That’s half of the problem.
No, silly. That's the Plan.
You must imagine that Protestants don’t read St. Augustine. You also imagine that protestants have not developed over time a great deal of theology, some of it sitting on the shoulders of Catholic Doctrine. Again, inserting the Catholic church as THE Church and the only rouge to salvation is silly. To assert that Protestants are not saved by the grace of Jesus is as silly as many of my protestant friends who say that Catholics are not Christian. The blood of Christ is sufficient for Catholics and Protestants. To assert otherwise is to diminish Christ.
Perhaps, using your logic, you should become a Muslim, as there are more of them than Romanists (the general understanding of the term “Catholic”). The word catholic simply means universal and would apply to all Christians, regardless of their label, as part of Jesus’ universal church.
Or perhaps a Hindu, as they are just slightly behind the Roman Catholics.
I've personally experienced what can happen when well-meaning (or not so well-meaning) church leaders claim that the Holy Spirit -- without the restraining hand of 2,000 years of authority and tradition -- is telling them what to do. In other words, the Episcopalians. We had had enough of man-led, majority-vote "church", and decided to go where there was some authority and some adult leadership.
I was challenging the assertion that the Church was an extinct pterodactyl.
In fact, Pope Benedict anticipates that the numbers may fall as the Church cleans house. He is probably right. He is not only extremely learned and devout, but also fairly perceptive.
When I was an Episcopalian (for some 47 years), the term "Romanist" was commonly used as an insult (with a little sniff and a sideways glance). You may not know that, in which case your mistake is understandable. Most folks distinguish between "Big C" Catholic and "little C" catholic, without getting into insult territory.
I agree with you that claims of guidance by the Holy Spirit have led to all kinds of silliness in the Protestant arena. I have seen it again and again and it can be stupefying at times. But I promise you choose the sometimes chaotic nature of protestant life than the the hierarchical Catholic life. That also reflects my political libertarian leanings. To the Catholic Church Protestants are heretics and not saved. Unless Catholic doctrine has evolved. It’s really that simple. I reject any organization that says Christ plus.
In addition the Catholic Church is as demonstrably fallible as the Protestant denominations. The difference with Protestants is that when the denomination that you go to falls into error, you can leave. The Catholic Church falls into error and stays that way for centuries and you can’t leave without losing your salvation.
Yes, Jesus established the Roman Catholic Church that one time He visited Italy. Huh?
No, Christ established His Church, which includes all those who have repented and follow Him.
Why do you Roman Catholics have such a hard time fellowshiping with those who follow Christ, who love Him as their Lord and Savior? Why so antagonistic toward Christians. I just can’t figure out your vitriol toward other Christ-followers. Maybe that’s how you get your identity — you’ve become more of a Protestant Protestant, and less of a Christ-follower.
What's confusing is the doctrine "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" - which does NOT mean that you have to be a registered member of the Church to be saved. It just means that those who are saved are saved by the Church - whether they know it or not.
I know that you think that some Catholic doctrine is error - but we don't. Many things that non-Catholics think are doctrine aren't doctrine at all, some are misunderstood, some are simply false slander set about by the likes of He Who Must Not Be Named (you know, the comic book tract guy).
Libertarianism is fine for politics (although it has its problems), but it doesn't work in religion at all. Truth is not a matter of opinion, there is one Truth and we should all be working towards it. "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified."
“It just means that those who are saved are saved by the Church - whether they know it or not. “
I can live with that!
I agree with you also that Libertarianism has it’s problems in politics. No doubt. It is the tension that exist in a society that values ordered freedom. The same tension exists in the Church. Trust me I cringe at a very great deal of what passes for Christianity. The feel good mega churches like Joel Osteen, the insanity of the Pentecostals. The vapid and toothless Anglican Church.
My Sunday school class has been talking about what is Truth. Capital T truth for the last month. Pontus Pilot famously asks of Jesus “What is Truth?” That question will forever haunt humans as we try to ascertain the only Truth that is God. Our Truth filtered by human understanding. As your Church rightly teaches, man can not apprehend the nature of God.
So we humans are tossed upon this whirling rock and tasked with finding God, as he reached out for us. So what is Truth. It is God. But we as Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve cannot apprehend God. So, Truth eludes us. We receive but a glimmer, a distorted shimmer of truth, as through looking through the heat shimmering off a highway on a hot day.
” To the Catholic Church Protestants are heretics and not saved”
No. Not at all. If you have been baptised in the Name of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit whether you are Methodist, Baptist, Anglican or what have you. Baptism must be in the form of the Triune God.
The Catholic Church belives in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
“818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers.
All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”272 819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”276
Apoligies for any insult taken, the term was used to distinguish those who adhere to Rome from those who simply adhere to Jesus.
Of course there are those within the ranks of Roman Catholicism who are saved by the grace of God through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and I am not implying otherwise.
There is an obvious (at least to me) difference between the visible church (those in pews or who wear “Christian” labels) and true believers who follow Jesus, both within Roman Catholicism and among those who reject Roman Catholicism.
By the way, the church (or the “C”hurch) doesn’t save anybody, only Jesus can do that.
No vitriol, my friend. Perhaps the language barrier is more challenging to penetrate. Peter was directly commissioned to head up the Church. He established the Church at Antioch and made his way to Rome where he was martyred. Paul was also martyred in Rome.
Why do you Roman Catholics have such a hard time fellowshiping with those who follow Christ, who love Him as their Lord and Savior?
We love our Lord and proclaim Him through these discussions. We are equally confounded as to how so many christians can believe that all churches are equal. According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many. For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many. The word "truth" is used several times in the New Testament. However, the plural version of the word "truth" never appears in Scripture. Therefore, there can only be one Truth. So how can there be over 20,000 non-Catholic Christian denominations all claiming to have the "Truth"?
Regarding “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” I think you are being less that truthful regarding the import of this doctrine. From a couple of your “infallible” popes:
The other two infallible declarations are as follows: There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).
We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).
Since I am not subject to the Roman Pontiff, in your view, I am NOT a Christian.
Or are you saying that even though I reject the teachings of Rome and “Catholic” popes, the Roman Catholic Church has saved me through my faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord, and the acceptance of His death on the cross for my sin?
What is it? Am I a Christian (in your view) or am I not?
So please elaborate, my friend.
I reject the Roman Catholic Church, particularly its extra-biblical and anti-biblical teachings, and I reject the pope as the “head” of the church, though I do not reject my brothers and sisters in Christ who are Roman Catholic.
Do you accept me as a true believer in Jesus Christ, saved and going to heaven, through my repentance from sin, and faith in the death of Jesus in my place and His resurrection from the dead?
Joyful welcome .
John 17:21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.
Luke 11:17 But he seeing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself, shall be brought to desolation, and house upon house shall fall.
You wrote, “We are equally confounded as to how so many christians can believe that all churches are equal.” I don’t think anyone believes that. They’re not all equal.
I’m glad to see you pointing out that there is one faith. That is true. And Christ is its Protector, not the Roman Catholic Church.
Welcome, Pastor and Mrs. Jones, and those in your congregation to decided to join the Catholic Church. I pray you continue to be fulfilled in your decision.
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