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To: Salvation; Belteshazzar

No, I think Belteshazzar is lacking faith in the words of Jesus, just in the interpretational leap being made in this “Hermeneutical” endeavor.

Let me simplify things a bit:

What does mankind need to live? Food and drink.

Biblical translations use “bread” to mean a variety of things - from literal bread, to a generic term for food.

Jesus was clearly saying that HE was the ultimate nourishment (in a spiritual sense) for TRUE life that comes only through Jesus Christ.

The argument (and the purpose for this article) is to defend transubstantiation - the Catholic belief that the bread and the wine used in Communion are somehow miraculously transmogrified into the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. This step is necessary then to justify the classification of Communion as a “sacrament” - one of the steps necessary for salvation.

Unfortunately, this then requires one to overlook the inconsistencies or worse - contradictions - that this sets up.

Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19, 1 Corinthians 11:23-30 being the most obvious and cited examples.

There are many other inconsistencies - one that is glaring to me, and should be to others, is God’s prohibition against consuming blood (Leviticus 7), and in fact - Jewish traditions held the consumption of blood to be a pagan ritual.

Even more interesting - the predominant religion (official before being replaced by “Christianity”) practiced, particularly among the soldier class, in the Roman empire -the Cult of Mithras, practiced the eating of the flesh of sacrifice, and the drinking of the blood. The belief was that drinking the blood of the sacrifice granted eternal life. Sound familiar?

So - with this context in-hand (text without context is nothing but a pretext), we should see how the “Communion”/Lord’s Supper/Eucharist/Lord’s Table has evolved.

And lest we forget that the early history of the Catholic Church’s efforts to spread Christianity was through the sword and through the assimilation of local pagan religious practices into the regular practice of The Church.

But I know that I will get beat up over this post. God is not the author of confusion. Thus any interpretation or adding to God’s word that creates confusion or conflict with other portions of God’s Word cannot be of God.

6 posted on 03/09/2010 11:02:20 PM PST by TheBattman (They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature...)
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To: TheBattman

I believe Jesus was contrasting the need to eat His flesh and drink His blood, over and against pagan worship that you referenced.

Obviously as a Protestant I believe the blood and wine are symbolic, not actual. But I believe the point of this Bible passage is the contrast with the surrounding pagan worship.

Jesus ate the bread and wine at the Last Supper, as most have seen illustrated in the great painting by Da Vinci. He was physically present there, body and blood. No one there seemed to be under the impression that parts of His body or servings of His blood were being served as He Himself sat there and partook with them.

7 posted on 03/10/2010 12:07:00 AM PST by Persevero ("Our culture is far better than a retarded Islamic culture." -Geert Wilders)
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To: TheBattman

“And lest we forget that the early history of the Catholic Church’s efforts to spread Christianity was through the sword and through the assimilation of local pagan religious practices into the regular practice of The Church.” —> oh, that is hilarious. You mean that The Church spread Christianity to the Roman Empire through the sword? And we worship Thor and Odin? That’s historically so inaccurate, it makes the 9/11 conspiracy theory sound sane

9 posted on 03/10/2010 3:10:20 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: TheBattman; Salvation

No to both of you. What I am really, truly confused about is why anyone (in this case, Salvation) would introduce another, nearly identical thread, a day after the first one. This is the behavior of an ADHD-plagued child, not that of someone who is looking for any serious consideration and discussion of the Biblical theology.

In the case of TheBattman’s attempt to enlist me in his own ranks, I don’t find any fewer “interpretational leap(s)” than in Salvation’s borrowed assertions. Neither is really looking at the text of John 6, but using it as, yes, a pretext to leap to their already chosen conclusions.

So, in a way, quite a lot is being revealed about the hermeneutic of each.

13 posted on 03/10/2010 8:22:22 AM PST by Belteshazzar
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To: TheBattman

from corinthians 11:
“23. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24. And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.”
so if we do not DISCERN the Lord’s Body, what? paul is clearly stating the CHurch’s position. Why did many early Christians die because the they were accused of being “cannibals”, ie, eating the body and blood of Jesus?
from the Old testament: “ Exodus 12
1. And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
2. This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
3. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4. And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD’s passover.
12. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
13. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
14. And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.”
IF the israels did not eat the sacrificed lamb, they suffered death.
WHy did John the baptist call Jesus the Lamb of God?
why was the last supper on the passover?

22 posted on 03/10/2010 5:50:21 PM PST by haole (John 10 30)
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