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A Protestant Discovers Mary
NC Register ^ | March 13, 2010

Posted on 03/14/2010 12:14:46 PM PDT by NYer

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To: RnMomof7

INDEED.


51 posted on 03/14/2010 7:10:56 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

MUCH AGREE.

Sad realities.


52 posted on 03/14/2010 7:12:00 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Salvation

Have said repeatedly . . .

I only write for those for whom Holy Spirit enlivens my poor words redemptively in their minds, hearts, spirits, lives.

Others are encouraged to trash them.


53 posted on 03/14/2010 7:13:20 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Cicero; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; hope; ..

Ahhhh the other tootpick foundation for umpteen skyscrapers of idolatrous, blasphemous Marian excesses.

Huge edifices teetering on a toothpick or even on two toothpicks are horrifically spiritually hazardous.


54 posted on 03/14/2010 7:15:14 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

** only write for those for whom Holy Spirit enlivens my poor words redemptively in their minds, hearts, spirits, lives.**

This isn’t making sense to me. This is a public forum. When you write on it, it is open for any and all to read.

Why would anyone ever want to trash prayers?

God doesn’t.

Or are you talking about opinions?

Are you saying that I am not free to respond to you?


55 posted on 03/14/2010 7:16:28 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer
In other news, Jacen Solo discovered something too.

(Of course, my opinions of The Force are heresy to the nth degree.)
56 posted on 03/14/2010 7:20:13 PM PDT by Fichori ('Wee-Weed Up' pitchfork wielding neolithic caveman villager with lit torch. Any questions?)
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To: Salvation

Let me try again . . .

I understood your post that I was replying to

to delcare that you did not understand my writings.

And there was a line about my being Charismatic etc. which I wasn’t quite sure what you were trying to say.

My thoughts on reading your post was, again, that

I’m NOT one size fits all.

I am NOT surprised that not everyone understands my poor words.

[though I am surprised that you do not understand more than you seem to assert that you do.]

I think it’s quite reasonable that my poor words are destined to enliven, enlighten, encourage, edify . . . exhort . . . those ONLY FOR WHOM GOD’S HOLY SPIRIT opens their understanding thereto—gives them eyes to see and ears to hear those particular combinations of poor words.

I have no . . . animosity . . . toward those for whom my poor words are too mystifying . . . no animosity for their trashing what they do not understand . . . as worthless to them.

Perhaps I was too oblique in asserting my welcome to such folks to trash said poor words that were of no use to them.

Is that any clearer?


57 posted on 03/14/2010 7:24:44 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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Comment #58 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation

EVERYONE HEREON

with posting privileges!

is free to respond to me.

And quite welcome.

Some have doggedly and energetically earned the ‘honor’ of being on my ignore or my mostly ignore list, however. That merely means I decline to or mostly decline to respond to their responses.

You are not on either list.


59 posted on 03/14/2010 7:27:30 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

It’s not a toothpick. It’s the Bible.


60 posted on 03/14/2010 7:32:25 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Quix

**You are not on either list.**

LOL! That’s good to know!


61 posted on 03/14/2010 7:34:42 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Cicero

Uhhhhh . . . that’s a grossly misleading assertion.

ESSENTIALLY, IT IS NOT = THE BIBLE.

IT IS CERTAINLY FAR FROM THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD IN SCRIPTURE ON THE MATTERS RELATED THERETO.

It’s a relatively obscure

PHRASE

in the Bible.

. . . taken horrifically out of context and embellished far worse than the 2 feet thick curtain hiding the Holy of Holies that rent when Christ was on the Cross.


62 posted on 03/14/2010 7:38:05 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: big'ol_freeper

Mary - the evidence of scripture

The following lists the accounts of Jesus saying something to or about Mary:

The first 3 are different accounts of the same event.

“46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” - Matt 12

31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.” 33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” - Mark 3

19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” - Luke 8

In this account, a woman sought to give honor to Mary:

“While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” — Luke 11

I’ll note here that the NAB footnotes say, “The beatitude in Luke 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus; see the note on Luke 8:21. Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.”

There is the Wedding at Cana:

1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.”...You have kept the good wine until now!”...12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. — John 2

The Catholic footnote in the NAB: “4 [4] This verse may seek to show that Jesus did not work miracles to help his family and friends, as in the apocryphal gospels. Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus. My hour has not yet come: the translation as a question (”Has not my hour now come?”), while preferable grammatically and supported by Greek Fathers, seems unlikely from a comparison with John 7:6, 30. The “hour” is that of Jesus’ passion, death, resurrection, and ascension (John 13:1).”

And finally, we have the scene at the cross:

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. — John 19

A few points seem significant:

1) Jesus never calls her “Mother”, let alone “Queen of Heaven’ or “Spouse of the Holy Spirit”. He only calls her “Woman”. Even Catholic scholars say, “Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus.”

2) There is only one example in scripture of Mary being exalted by a human - Luke 11.28 Not only does Jesus not concur, but He actively denies the attention paid to Mary: “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

3) Cana ends with this statement: “After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.” This is one of several verses indicating tension between Jesus and his family - including his mother.

4) When Mary doubted Jesus

Mark 3 provides more detail than covered earlier.

“He came home. Again (the) crowd gathered, making it impossible for them even to eat. When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”...His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.

A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.” But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and (my) brothers?” And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. (For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”

It is also important to note what comes between the verse “When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” and “His mother and his brothers arrived.”

Between his family setting out “to seize them” because “he is out of his mind”, and their arrival, the scribes echo his family’s concerns - “The scribes who had come from Jerusalem said, ‘He is possessed by Beelzebul’...” - and it is here that Jesus teaches on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

And those who wish to exalt Mary ought to pay attention that it wasn’t just his “brothers” who came for him, but “His mother and his brothers”. The Catholic footnotes in the NAB state, “8 [20-35] Within the narrative of the coming of Jesus’ relatives (Mark 3:20-21) is inserted the account of the unbelieving scribes from Jerusalem who attributed Jesus’ power over demons to Beelzebul (Mark 3:22-30); see the note on Mark 5:21-43. There were those even among the relatives of Jesus who disbelieved and regarded Jesus as out of his mind (Mark 3:21). Against this background, Jesus is informed of the arrival of his mother and brothers [and sisters] (Mark 3:32). He responds by showing that not family ties but doing God’s will (35) is decisive in the kingdom; cf the note on Matthew 12:46-50.”

She was listed in the believers meeting in Acts 1 (”14All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers”) - after which she drops from view.

Jesus didn’t call her “Woman” because HE was disrespectful. The only reason Jesus would treat her thus is to emphasize her humanity - not Queen of Heaven, not the Holy Spirit’s Wife - but the human vessel chosen by God for His purposes.

The passages I’ve cited are, to say the least, less ambiguous than Rev 12...


63 posted on 03/14/2010 7:38:34 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Cicero; Amityschild; AngieGal; auggy; autumnraine; bearsgirl90; bethtopaz; BigBadWolf; Blogger; ...

forgot to ping:

###

Uhhhhh . . . that’s a grossly misleading assertion.

ESSENTIALLY, IT IS NOT = THE BIBLE.

IT IS CERTAINLY FAR FROM THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD IN SCRIPTURE ON THE MATTERS RELATED THERETO.

It’s a relatively obscure

PHRASE

in the Bible.

. . . taken horrifically out of context and embellished far worse than the 2 feet thick curtain hiding the Holy of Holies that rent when Christ was on the Cross.


64 posted on 03/14/2010 7:38:36 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mr Rogers

EXCELLENT.

THX.


65 posted on 03/14/2010 7:40:05 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: AnAmericanMother; big'ol_freeper
And in Koine Greek (and I understand also in Aramaic) "woman" is a term of respect.

I'm not surprised that RC's wouldn't see the error of the evolution of their titles and dogmas concerning the BVM.

66 posted on 03/14/2010 7:42:45 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Quix
And, re Mary, your labels did not include the most horrifically blasphemous and idolatrous that are available from their own officially approved documents.

No, I was just trying to show the historical evolution up to the time of Ambrose. The big thing that jumps out is her titles and claims of her supernatural powers keep changing. They become more grandiose each time.

67 posted on 03/14/2010 7:47:52 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Mr Rogers

It breaks my heart, and I think it does Mary’s as well, to see what has been done to her. She sits at the feet of God, worshipping only Him, in Heaven.

And she, as were we all, was taught to pray by Christ Himself not to her or the “saints” in such manner, “Our FATHER, which art in Heaven.....”

Had intercessory prayer to Mary or others been necessary, Christ would have taught us this specifically.


68 posted on 03/14/2010 7:48:01 PM PDT by kimmie7 (THE CROSS - Today, Tomorrow and Always!)
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To: wmfights

No, I was just trying to show the historical evolution up to the time of Ambrose. The big thing that jumps out is her titles and claims of her supernatural powers keep changing. They become more grandiose each time.

#################

THAT’S THE INHERENT NATURE OF RELIGION with fallen man.

Christ noted that sort of thing most fiercely when He walked dusty paths.

It is interesting that it’s so easily documented vis a vis Mary.

And, that most of the stuff was not formalized into official dogma, IIRC until beginning about 1930. Incredible that they try and pretend it was all a seamless homogeneous thing from AD 33 on.

What rubber history nonsense . . . lies from hell, actually.


69 posted on 03/14/2010 7:50:41 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: kimmie7

INDEED.

even if merely advisable, somewhere the NT would have mentioned it.


70 posted on 03/14/2010 7:51:32 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: AppyPappy
"You don’t pray to anyone but God."

Prayers of intercession to saints are no different than you asking your still living friends and family to pray for you.

71 posted on 03/14/2010 7:52:25 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Quix

How is it taken out of context? It is far from the only evidence for the importance of Mary in the Bible, but it is certainly clear enough.

Why will all generations call her blessed?

“For he that is mighty hath magnified me: and holy is his Name.”

She will be remembered and blessed because God Himself has chosen her as His vessel so that His Son can become both God and Man.

Luther and Calvin didn’t have any problems calling Mary blessed, or giving her other titles. It was a later development in Protestantism, which seems to have emerged arbitrarily as the result of blind hatred of Rome.

I have to leave now. But I would suggest separating study of the Bible from the desire to demonize whatever the Church teaches. Mary is NOT to be worshipped. Only God may be worshipped. But she is to be honored as the Mother of Jesus.

So, too, in a different way we honor the Apostles, because Jesus chose them from among many others to be the leaders of the Church in His day.


72 posted on 03/14/2010 7:52:30 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; hope; ..

Your own officially approved, sanctioned and published documents demonstrate otherwise.

There is no excuse.

Scripture is quite clear enough about God’s priorities regarding Mary vs Christ, God, Holy Spirit.

Rubberizing history and Scripture to jury-rig blasphemy and idolatry is inexcusable.


73 posted on 03/14/2010 7:57:33 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Natural Law; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; ...

WRONG.

Scripture is clear enough in the New Testament alone about God’s sensibilities vis a vis the gulf

HE HAS PLACED

between graduated believers and mortals.


74 posted on 03/14/2010 7:58:30 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
It is interesting that it’s so easily documented vis a vis Mary.

It really is amazing how much has changed about the BVM. The immaculate conception only became dogma in 1854 AD. The Marian apparitions only really started around the time of the Reformation and have increased dramatically since the 1800's and there is never any consideration that the Devil might be behind it.

All these pious people running to statues of a dead human bowing down and praying to her and no thought that this might actually be serving the Devil.

75 posted on 03/14/2010 8:00:14 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Quix

MESSAGES FROM QUIX HAVE BEEN BLOCKED BY THE OFFICIAL VATICAN SPAM FILTER.


76 posted on 03/14/2010 8:01:07 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Cicero; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; hope; ..

NONSENSE.

YOUR OWN WORDS INDICT THAT PERCPECTIVE.

CHRIST CHOSE THE APOSTLES AND ALLUDES TO THEIR HONORS IN HEAVEN.

There is NO REMOTELY SIMILAR assertions by Christ about Mary.

YET, THE VATICAN EDIFICE GIVES ALL THE APOSTLES COMBINED FAR, FAR, FAR,

FAR, less attention, focus, adoration, acclaim, honor, worship, etc. than it gives Mary.

FAR, FAR FAR LESS.

Your logic fails utterly.

Your inconsistency on such matters crashes the rationale.


77 posted on 03/14/2010 8:01:10 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: wmfights

It’s fascinating . . . horrific but fascinating . . .

they ignore rather clear declarations about God’s perspective on the gulf HE ESTABLISHED between mortals and graduated believers

yet build skyscrapers of idolatry and blaphemy on a couple of obscure phrases . . .

and they expect respect as rational believers.

Amazing.


78 posted on 03/14/2010 8:03:50 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
yet build skyscrapers of idolatry and blaphemy on a couple of obscure phrases . . .

I see it first hand at my younger son's high school. My personal experience is these are all pretty good people, but blind. They don't read Scripture. They rely on their church to tell them what the truth is so any question of what they are doing reverts back to a defense of their church not Scripture.

79 posted on 03/14/2010 8:13:14 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights

QUITE SO.

Quite DREADFULLY so.


80 posted on 03/14/2010 8:31:39 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: betty boop; Quix
Thank you both for sharing your insights, dear sister and brother in Christ!

It seems like many issues involving Mary are "horns of contention" between Catholics and Protestants. And I readily admit that some of the claims (e.g. that Mary was elevated to a certain equality with the Father) are more than a little troubling to me.

But the claim that she or any Christian is a temple is not one of them.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

81 posted on 03/14/2010 10:05:34 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Well put.

I Agree.


82 posted on 03/14/2010 10:33:07 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
Thank you for your encouragement, dear brother in Christ!
83 posted on 03/14/2010 10:45:35 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Godzilla; Quix; stfassisi
I readily admit that some of the claims (e.g. that Mary was elevated to a certain equality with the Father) are more than a little troubling to me.

To me, too, dearest sister in Christ! To me, the claim "that Mary was elevated to a certain equality with the Father" has absolutely zero basis, either in the Holy Scriptures, or in authoritative Catholic theological teaching. Certainly this is not my understanding or belief.

The "problem" of where Mary fits in, in the divine picture, has been preoccupying me ever since I went to the National Shrine of the Divine Mercy in Stockbridge, MA last Monday. It is a Marian shrine. There is a fresco over the alter that appears to shed light on this problem. Indeed, the fresco itself prompted the problem to my mind in the first place. I've been meditating on it....

In any case, this fresco in no way suggests that Mary is on a par with any Person of the Holy Trinity, singly or altogether. What the fresco says to me: Mary is not divine. She is mortal — but a consecrated mortal, consecrated by God from the foundation of the world to be the Mother of His Son in time, the human means of divine Incarnation. She was and is a suffering servant of the Lord, bearing all that happened to her, and much more importantly, to her Son, with dignity and humility. She stood sorrowing, suffering, yet composed with the Beloved Apostle at the foot of the Cross. When she died, she was not "resurrected." That is the sole privilege of her Son. But the Church teaches that she was directly "assumed into Heaven" because she was the spotless human Mother of the fully God–fully man, Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.

At least this is my understanding so far. As the fresco teaches!

So when St. Ambrose says, "Mary is the temple of God, not the god of the temple," I understand what he's saying. Speaking in grossly reductionist terms, certainly she was the temple of the Son for His 9 months of human in utero development....

Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ, for the passages at I Corinthians 6:19 — so very on-point — and for sharing your astute observations.

84 posted on 03/14/2010 11:03:54 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: betty boop
I thank God for you. And I thank you for sharing your beautiful testimony and insights, dearest sister in Christ!


85 posted on 03/14/2010 11:10:47 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Thank you dearest sister in Christ! You are such a blessing to me.

Good night!

86 posted on 03/14/2010 11:24:51 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: ottbmare

It’s not about Mary. It’s not about being Catholic. It’s not about being Protestant. It’s about Jesus. Whether you hold to the Roman Catholic faith or simply to Jesus.


87 posted on 03/14/2010 11:33:51 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: TASMANIANRED

You wrote, “Welcome with great joy to the faith.”

It breaks my heart to think that there are so many people who diminish faith in Jesus by implying that you must be a member of the Roman Catholic Church in order to have “faith.”

“The faith”? No, “the faith” is faith in Jesus. Lots of people trust in Him apart from membership in the Church of Rome. Lots of people disengage from the heresy of the RCC and its Popes, and instead cling to the mysterious and invisible Church of Christ. They should be considered among those who are members of “the faith.”

Please consider affirming Christ more than affirming the Roman Catholic Church.


88 posted on 03/14/2010 11:39:21 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Quix

Wow !Wow !No honor like the apostle’s. You have it all figured out Don’t you. Well answer me this- was Christ sinless to be the lamb of God Meaning did he obey The 613 moasic laws which would declare him really sinless to Die on the Cross for our sins. Which of course declares The 10 commendments which states as a commendment and not a suggestion that we Honor our Mother and Father . He did have a human Mother so the requirement is there without a doubt. To Honor Your Mother!Otherwise he was not sinless on the Cross which means you and I are not saved. Also when you talk about the terminology for her title which came later is just like medical doctors who later termed the words of body parts later in the course of human history to help us. Like the study of human body. Whats a Heart Or Brain as such to able to diagnose or operate. Now what about The terminology of say The King of Kings. He is King so naturally the Old Testament term for Queen is The Mother Of The King. Thus he was born into the jewish covenant which state this Queenship so he has to Honor her Properly as such or he is not sin less or the lamb of God. Which means we all go to hell? Use accurate thinking when you weigh out the scriptures- there is more than you and I can imagine in the Most Holy Scriptures- May God Bless


89 posted on 03/14/2010 11:40:01 PM PDT by johngrace
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To: Salvation

It’s better that “celebrities” become followers of Christ than mere “Catholics.”

In the end, it’s not what church you affiliate yourself with. It’s Whom you affiliate with.

Roman Catholicism is fine. But folks are saved from damnation through Christ, not through Rome. If they’re a member of the Roman branch of Christianity, fine. If they’re a member of the broader branch of Christianity, the “remnant” if you will, then fine.

But it’s about Jesus, not about Rome, the Vatican, the Pope. It’s about Jesus.


90 posted on 03/14/2010 11:42:32 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: big'ol_freeper

Um. “Welcome home”? As if faith in Jesus in not sufficient?

Roman Catholics — too many of them — are just like Mormons. They care more about their church than they do about the Savior.


91 posted on 03/14/2010 11:44:37 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Cicero

Yes, Mary was blessed to bring Jesus into the world. Blessed and especially so among all women. But Jesus alone is to be exalted, not His mother. She is dead. Jesus is not. Mary cannot hear anything anyone says to her. Jesus is our intercessor, hearing everything.


92 posted on 03/14/2010 11:55:30 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: NYer

Thank You NYer Good Post


93 posted on 03/15/2010 1:28:42 AM PDT by johngrace
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To: Natural Law

Except my living friends can hear me. There’s no evidence that the saints in question can hear you.


94 posted on 03/15/2010 3:26:13 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: TASMANIANRED

Too bad so many Catholics aren’t as devoted to the Word of God and taking on the mind of Christ, as they are seeking the mind of Mary.


95 posted on 03/15/2010 4:01:09 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: betty boop
this fresco in no way suggests that Mary is on a par with any Person of the Holy Trinity, singly or altogether. What the fresco says to me: Mary is not divine. She is mortal — but a consecrated mortal, consecrated by God from the foundation of the world to be the Mother of His Son in time, the human means of divine Incarnation. She was and is a suffering servant of the Lord, bearing all that happened to her, and much more importantly, to her Son, with dignity and humility. She stood sorrowing, suffering, yet composed with the Beloved Apostle at the foot of the Cross. When she died, she was not "resurrected." That is the sole privilege of her Son. But the Church teaches that she was directly "assumed into Heaven" because she was the spotless human Mother of the fully God–fully man, Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer. At least this is my understanding so far. As the fresco teaches!

WOW! You expressed that wonderfully ,dear sister.

96 posted on 03/15/2010 5:34:48 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Cvengr; TASMANIANRED
Too bad so many Catholics aren’t as devoted to the Word of God and taking on the mind of Christ, as they are seeking the mind of Mary.

That is a very strong statement. No doubt you have some statistics to back it up.

The Blessed Virgin Mary said at Fatima that many souls in this world go to hell because there is no one to pray for them. She also said that more souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason. That was said in 1917, at the beginning of the Communist revolt in Russia. Now with internet pornography being so prevalent and easy to obtain, how much more true that must be today .

A lot of people in this world don't pray for anybody but themselves - "I want...", "I need...", "Please help ME...", etc. There isn't anything wrong with this, of course, but there is so much more to pray for in the world than for our personal needs. How many hours do you devote each day to praying for others?

Mary leads ALL men to her Son. Scripture provides us with great inspiration. Prayer is what gets us to heaven. In praying for others, you are assisting your brothers and sisters to reach the same goal. Your strong faith compensates for their weakness. Thank you, dear Mother, for your constant reminder.

97 posted on 03/15/2010 5:59:52 AM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***Scripture tells us there is only “one God and one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.” ***

You are correct, but I think you believe we Catholics think Mary, alone, can answer our prayers. I refer you to the well-known Hail Mary prayer which ends with the words, “Holy Mary, mother of God, PRAY FOR US now and at the hour of our death.” Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? Does that mean that you confer upon them divinity?


98 posted on 03/15/2010 6:03:52 AM PDT by kitkat (Obama hates us. Well, maybe a LOT of Kenyans do.)
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To: kitkat

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It takes a good chunk of time to properly say the rosary. ( Having been raised a Catholic, I know.)

When we ask others to pray for us to do take that much time, effort, and mental energy to ask them to do us that favor? Do we have entire May processions devoted to asking a friend to pray for us? Do we have statues and images of our friends dressed in elegant fabrics and bedecked with flowers? Do we light candles in front of them?

That time, energy, and mental and emotional intensity would be far better directed to God Himself, through Jesus Christ.


99 posted on 03/15/2010 6:14:03 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: kitkat

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One more thing:

There is a **lot** right about the Catholic Church. I would be THRILLED if every Catholic in this nation actually practiced what is taught in their catechism. Our nation would be far stronger if they did.

And...It is entirely possible to be very faithful and devoted Catholic ( holding Mary in high esteem) without doing any of this Mary stuff.


100 posted on 03/15/2010 6:18:38 AM PDT by wintertime
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