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Redemptive Suffering
http://www.thedefender.org/RedemptiveSuffering.html ^ | unknown | Fr. Yves Conger

Posted on 03/14/2010 1:05:59 PM PDT by stfassisi

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A victim soul is someone who has been chosen by God to participate in Christ's Passion in a very special way by manifesting the signs of His sufferings, often in their very own bodies. Suffering for the sake of love is their vocation, and such suffering is willingly accepted for the benefit of the Church. The attitude and plea of the victim soul is summed up by this prayer of St. Catherine of Siena, “The only cause of my death is my zeal for the Church of God, which devours and consumes me. Accept, O Lord, the sacrifice of my life for the Mystical Body of Thy holy Church. “
1 posted on 03/14/2010 1:05:59 PM PDT by stfassisi
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To: AveMaria1; Friar Roderic Mary; fr maximilian mary; Kolokotronis; Carolina; sandyeggo; Salvation; ...

From The words of Blessed Saint Padre Pio...

“The life of a Christian is nothing but a perpetual struggle against self; there is no flowering of the soul to the beauty of its perfection except at the price of pain.” Saint Padre Pio


2 posted on 03/14/2010 1:08:58 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi

Wonderful post. Thank you.


3 posted on 03/14/2010 1:37:12 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: stfassisi

I’m sincerely confused. If the sin has been forgiven, why would there still be punishment?


4 posted on 03/14/2010 2:16:32 PM PDT by Excellence (Meet your new mother-in-law, the United States Government.)
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To: Excellence

Dear Friend , there is still physical death and pain while we are still in this world.

Suffering is a part of life and something that can be of great value when it is endured and united with love


5 posted on 03/14/2010 2:22:09 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi

Well, I have to ask - does it (Redemptive Suffering) also act, not only against “Punishment for sins” but for petitions for something good?

For example, can one who is suffering accept and offer it as part of a plea for help and protection for our country from evil leaders and their evil deeds?

I think so. Therefore, count me in. Hope the suffering isn’t more than I can bear and doesn’t hurt those I love.


6 posted on 03/14/2010 3:14:57 PM PDT by eCSMaster
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To: eCSMaster
Most definitely; you can pick and choose what you would like to offer up your suffering for, and provided it is for the good of the Lord, I'm certain He will take great care with your quest and desire.

When our sons were younger, and this was during the period of time the Chicago Bulls were winning a string of championships, we told them they could offer up their Hosts for good sportsmanship, etc., of their team, that they play their best, and so on. So one of our sons standing in line for the Eucharist during Communion, got up to the priest, and whispered, as he motioned he did not want the Eucharist, "I'd like to offer it up for the Chicago Bulls." Well, the priest assured him he could consume the Eucharist, and my husband and I "reexplained the offering up," thing, but it sure put a smile on our faces.
7 posted on 03/14/2010 3:32:20 PM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: Excellence; stfassisi; Alamo-Girl; Quix; kosta50
If the sin has been forgiven, why would there still be punishment?

My "best guess": Sin, though forgiven, still leaves its indelible trace in the world. God forgives the genuinely penitent sinner; but this forgiveness does not erase the legacy or fruits of sin that the sinner propagated by means of his sinful act, which leaves an ineffaceable mark on the course and shape of real events in the world of human experience.

The punishment that penitent sinners receive is not eternal damnation in Hell; rather, according to Catholic doctrine, the "punishment" consists of a mandatory post-death period of salutary purgation, in which the penitent soul is further perfected and hallowed, such that it can be conformed suitably with life in the heavenly kingdom to come.

Moreover, ...redemptive suffering does not gain the individual forgiveness for their sin; forgiveness results from God’s grace, freely given through Christ, which cannot be earned [i.e., by works alone].

Just some thoughts, FWTW.

8 posted on 03/14/2010 3:51:15 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: stfassisi

Wonderful

I recently gently reminded my mother to “offer it up” as she is suffering in body, mind and spirit.

Suffering is not punishment, it is redemption.


9 posted on 03/14/2010 3:53:39 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: eCSMaster

I would also ask - how does one know that the acceptance of suffering is truly doing God’s will and not simply some kind of masochism?


10 posted on 03/14/2010 3:58:24 PM PDT by eCSMaster
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Joya; The Comedian

Wish I understood as much as I

THINK I

OUGHT to

because of all the suffering I’ve put myself and others through . . . and others have put me through.

He has brought me to the place that He has enabled me to see that some of the severest suffering has been HIS MERCY.

Don’t know how to explain that.

I’m also reminded of a Heavenly visitation . . . with the person being shown through various Heavenly mansions—some of those of folks he’d known on earth, IIRC . . . some not of familiar folks.

Some were fairly modestly furnished. Some were lavishly furnished.

IIRC he remarked on the difference to his angelic guide . . . noting for example the exquisite paintings on the walls of the mansion they were in at the moment. The angel noted that THAT particular painting had cost a LOT of suffering.

And that the general differences were attributable to those who had

LAID UP TREASURES IN HEAVEN vs those who had not done much of that, at all.


11 posted on 03/14/2010 4:08:21 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: eCSMaster
Well, I have to ask - does it (Redemptive Suffering) also act, not only against “Punishment for sins” but for petitions for something good?

Certainly,but remember, God answers prayers not in the way we always want them

12 posted on 03/14/2010 5:33:55 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: eCSMaster; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Joya; The Comedian; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; ...
how does one know that the acceptance of suffering is truly doing God’s will and not simply some kind of masochism?

############

Quix's
REFLECTIONS
ON
SUFFERING

imho . . .

Dysfunctional suffering is that brought on by relentlessly & stubbornly perverse rebellions, idolatries, pessimism, self-absorption, chronic gritchy-ness at God, the world and others; unthankfulness; murmmering; . . . the opposite of the fruits of The Spirit.

Dysfunctional suffering is that which is seized and fondled obsessively like an anti-teddy-bear. Where every aspect and microgram of the suffering is milked for all the self-pity and excuse for misery, wailing and whining possible.

Dysfunctional suffering is that in the midst of which the sufferer . . . instead of rebuking and resisting the enemy, the demonic forces always lurking so pervasively around such experiences . . . instead, the sufferer enters into a kind of sick dance--tossing, fondling, carressing, embellinshing the suffering in horrific ways . . . or even spiritual intercourse with them . . . unwittingly or perhaps masochistically intensifying & prolonging the suffering needlessly.

Dysfunctional suffering usually involves chronic, relentless blame--of God, others and in unfitting ways, of the self. Blame is not the same as taking responsibility, confessing and repenting; letting go and going on as best one can.

Dysfunctional suffering involves a REFUSAL to FORGIVE UTTERLY--REGARDLESS--FULLY AND FREELY AS MUCH FROM THE HEART AS POSSIBLE, BY GOD'S GRACE--AND THE DETERMINATION TO FORGIVE MORE FULLY AT THE NEXT REMEMBERANCE OF WHATEVER.

############################

Redemptive suffering involves deeper, broader abandonment to God.

Redemptive suffering involves gracious acceptance, as best as one can, by God's Grace muster such. Not per se acceptance of satan's efforts to steal, destroy and kill--we are always called to resist the enemy vs comply with him.

Yet, at the time, for the moment, for the here, now, for this pain to this degree at this time TO CHOOSE TO TRUST GOD WITH IT AND IN IT and offer it up to Him as a sacrifice willfully chosen as an offering to Him rather than an excuse to wallow in self-pity, wail and whine.

It is an acceptance of God's sovereignty and supremacy as His greatest wisdom, Love, purpose, will in our lives whether we understand or think He's doing it all wrong, or not.

It is acceptance that . . . apart from HIm and Christ's Blood, not only would we deserve this and far more--we could not bear the tiniest fraction of the worthy consequences of our sinful affronts to Him and His Righteousness and Glory.

It is acceptance that God will deliver us from the fiery furnace of affliction or He won't--yet HE IS STILL GOD (and we are not); HE IS STILL ALTOGETHER GOOD; HE IS STILL ALTOGETHER LOVING; HE IS STILL ALTOGETHER WISE; HE IS STILL ALTOGETHER OUT FOR OUR ETERNAL GOOD AND OUR ETERNAL GLORY; HE IS GOOD ALL THE TIME AND ALL THE TIME HE IS GOOD . . . and we CHOOSE IN THE MIDST OF THE FIERY FURNACE OR ON IT'S BRINK . . . TO WORSHIP AND LOVE AND TRUST HIM REGARDLESS.

It is ACCEPTANCE of our state as real and present and possibly enduring vs kicking against the pricks [in KJV Paul's terms] . . . real or imagined, human or circumstantial pricks . . . !!!!DEMANDING!!!! INSTANT (at least soonish) and thorough deliverance.

It is acceptance that we don't know everything . . . not even about ourselves and our suffering. We don't even know but the tiniest fraction of what goes into other folks' contributions to our suffering. Are they acting out of greater internal pains than our own? Multiplied by whatever unknown geometric factor above and beyond our own excruciating pains?

It is acceptance of the fact that we do not know what GREATER sufferings MIGHT have been our lot--but for the Graces and Compassionate Kindnesses of The Lord.

It is BONE MARROW ACCEPTANCE that HE IS GOD and we are not. Or, it is as close to that as He enables us yet to manage to reside in.

It is
ACCEPTANCE
of
our
NOT
being absolutely
IN !!!!CONTROL!!!!

I have observed and experienced, that often enough . . . more often than I'd prefer . . . God seems to engineer incredible (?excruciating?) challenges that we are utterly incapable of--ON OUR OWN.

1. We cannot walk the razor blade thin line WITHOUT HIM.
2. We cannot pick the flyspecks out of the pepper and discern the good from the bad WITHOUT HIM.
.
3. We cannot be at PEACE in the midst of the fiery furnace WITHOUT HIM.
4. We cannot have HOPE WITHOUT HIM.
.
5. We cannot ENDURE TO THE END--WITHOUT HIM.
6. We cannot REDEEM THE TIME and the pain WITHOUT HIM.
.
7. We cannot GO ON, WITHOUT HIM.
8. We cannot OVERCOME, WITHOUT HIM.
.
9. We cannot BREATHE, HAVE OUR BEING, LIVE--ETERNALLY OR OTHERWISE--WITHOUT HIM.
10. We cannot know our left hand from our right hand, WITHOUT HIM.
.
11. We cannot LOVE, BE LOVED AND RECEIVE HIS LOVE WITHOUT HIM. Not only do we not know HOW to--we simply CANNOT even when we know some feeble bit about HOW. 12. We certainly cannot sit with Him in Heavenly places spiritually now or eternally more fully--with the enemy under our feet--WITHOUT HIM.

Redemptive suffering seems to plenty often involve seemingly mutually exclusive things--ACCEPTANCE yet RESISTING THE ENEMY and all without striving in our own strength. That anguish of heart navigating such mine fields must give some tiniest hint of what The Garden of Gethsemene was like.

IF POSSIBLE, TAKE THIS CUP . . . YET NOT MY WILL BUT THINE.

It is NOT foolishly with giddy idiocy rushing toward pain in some sort of sick masochistic orgy of insanity.

YET NOT MY WILL BUT THINE, FATHER.

Here's the wood and here's the altar, Father. Where's the sacrifice?

Ahhhhhh . . .

NOT MY WILL, BUT THINE, FATHER.

Then let your Cross and my daily cross do a thorough work, Father.

Conform me thoroughly to the image of your Son, Daddy.

RESISTANCE OF EVIL while ACCEPTING REALITY

!!!!AND!!!!

The SUPREME REALITY
THAT GOD

IS

WITH US
IN THE
MIDST
OF OUR SUFFERING!

HE PROMISED
NEVER
TO LEAVE US
NOR
FORSAKE US.

AND
HE
KEEPS HIS PROMISES.

Even in the midst of our suffering,
whether WE FEEL LIKE HE IS,
or not.

Redemptive suffering involves ACCEPTANCE of impossible contridictions as real and releasing them to God to sort out in the present and eternally.

Redemptive suffering involves wrestling with impossibly excruciating pains and angst--asking for MORE GRACE to bear them--and receiving and cashing that Grace in as best we can to go on another second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year.

Sometimes, at some point, Redemptive suffering involves standing tall in The Lord, getting fiercely angry at satan and his forces in the situation and in The Lord's anointing and grabbing the nearest jaw bone of an ass [more likely the Word of God] and slaying a few thousand Philistines--spiritually &/or however else God would order and enable.

Redemptive suffering involves learning all we can of His Knowledge and Wisdom in the midst of it--burrowing INTO HIM by whatever inesteemable honor of sharing somehow more intimately in His incarnation by sharing however miniscuely in His suffering . . .

. . . yet not allowing satan and his forces to afflict us a second longer than is 'necessary,' whatever that can mean.

And beyond all this . . . Redemptive suffering is whatever our choices . . . the choices of those we are connected to . . . choices of mankind . . . and God's part in all the above have decreed shall be our current lot . . . until we choose and learn and apply His Redemptive solutions and ways out of our suffering.

Until then, we walk in the midst of the fiery furnace WITH HIM WHO PROMISED NEVER TO LEAVE US NOR FORSAKE US.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD!
BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD!
BLESSED BE THE WAYS OF THE LORD!

COUNT IT ALL JOY . . .

May these poor words be of some value to those in the midst of their own fiery furnaces. --Bo Xian (C) 2010

13 posted on 03/14/2010 5:39:28 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix; Alamo-Girl
He has brought me to the place that He has enabled me to see that some of the severest suffering has been HIS MERCY.

I strongly empathize with this observation, dear brother in Christ. You describe an odd, mysterious thing. But we can also think of this situation as follows: Human beings do not learn from their successes, only from their failures. And God wants us to learn. Of Him, and the splendor of His eternal Being, inviting us to fully participate in it.

14 posted on 03/14/2010 6:04:16 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: betty boop
The punishment that penitent sinners receive is not eternal damnation in Hell; rather, according to Catholic doctrine, the "punishment" consists of a mandatory post-death period of salutary purgation, in which the penitent soul is further perfected and hallowed, such that it can be conformed suitably with life in the heavenly kingdom to come.

And here lies the "fatal contradiction" of this dogma: If there is a mandatory period of "purgation" that is necessary for some sort of cleansing, then it must indeed be "mandatory". As such it is necessary, good and to be desired. Why would anyone want to lessen this blessing? However, Catholic doctrine teaches that purgatorial suffering can be partially or even totally remitted by applying indulgences and the "merits of Christ and the Saints". If this cleansing can indeed be applied (imputed) without suffering by the individual with equivalent cleansing effect, why isn't Christ's suffering alone sufficient and why isn't it applied to all in full measure?
15 posted on 03/14/2010 6:08:30 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: Quix

bunmp to myself


16 posted on 03/14/2010 6:10:18 PM PDT by Judith Anne (2012 Sarah Palin/Duncan Hunter 2012)
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To: Quix; eCSMaster; Alamo-Girl; stfassisi; Joya; The Comedian; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; ...

Oh, dearest brother in Christ, may the Lord ever bless you for your sublime testimony and witness at post #13 of this thread!


17 posted on 03/14/2010 6:12:53 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: stfassisi
Redemptive suffering is the belief that human suffering, when accepted and offered up in union with the Passion of Jesus, can remit the just punishment for one's sins or for the sins of another. Like an indulgence, redemptive suffering does not gain the individual forgiveness for their sin; forgiveness results from God’s grace, freely given through Christ, which cannot be earned. After one's sins are forgiven, the individual's suffering can reduce the penalty due for sin.

One has to wonder by Christ bothered if men could do it for themselves and others..He may have well stayed home

18 posted on 03/14/2010 6:38:09 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Excellence
I’m sincerely confused. If the sin has been forgiven, why would there still be punishment?

Catholic teaching..... forgiven, but not paid for...Christ's cross was of no effect I guess???

19 posted on 03/14/2010 6:39:48 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: betty boop

Forgiven by the suffering of Christ, but not paid for?? the word redemption has a meaning ...To BUY BACK ... Christ paid the price for our sins..He purchased us with His blood ..


20 posted on 03/14/2010 6:42:35 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: armydoc; Alamo-Girl; Quix
If this cleansing can indeed be applied (imputed) without suffering by the individual with equivalent cleansing effect, why isn't Christ's suffering alone sufficient and why isn't it applied to all in full measure?

I don't know, armydoc. But the state of my knowledge of these matters is not the measure of them. Still it seems to me (whether canonical or not) that one cannot "through works", indulgences, or whatever, mitigate the consequences of our sins. If others suffer because of our own sinful actions, how can we escape the due measure of compensatory suffering that our sinful acts deserve?

Is the state of your knowledge regarding such matters better than mine? If so, I'm dying to hear the details.

If Christ's suffering were alone sufficient to save everyone universally, that would seem to me (crudely) analogous to the situation of banning "preexisting conditions" from underwriting consideration in health insurance. If everyone waited to purchase medical insurance until becoming desperately ill, the health insurance business would utterly collapse. The idea of "insurance" would become impossible. [I really am sorry for this clumsy metaphor; but I think it might get my point across.]

In short, Christ's suffering is on behalf of those called to love him — i.e., those who "buy into Him" before the critical need. Not those who, on their death bed, finally acknowledge Him, on a sort of Pascal's Wager.... Though if the end-life testimony/appeal of such is genuinely sincere, I imagine Christ, Who is Truth and Justice, would not turn them away....

Thus Christ is not indiscriminate in His salvation. For one thing, He cannot save those who refuse Him. God's Creation is — among other things — an expression of divine economy....

Or so it seems to me.

I don't know whether these lines make any sense to you, armydoc. But it's the best I can do for now.

Thank you so much for writing!

21 posted on 03/14/2010 6:42:41 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: RnMomof7

INDEED.


22 posted on 03/14/2010 6:51:10 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: betty boop

Thanks for your kind reply.


23 posted on 03/14/2010 6:51:59 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Judith Anne

I pray that your SIL and family are still recovering well and growing in the trust and stature of The Lord. May your prayers together in time and/or space enlighten all your lives in His Love.


24 posted on 03/14/2010 6:52:56 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: betty boop

Thanks for your kind, understanding and substantive reply.

Praise God for His faithfulness to teach us His Ways.


25 posted on 03/14/2010 6:53:57 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: stfassisi

I’m reminded of Alice of Sharbeek who, while suffering from (medieval)leprosy, daily offered up her suffering on behalf of others.


26 posted on 03/14/2010 6:54:23 PM PDT by reaganaut (Don't mind me, I did a little to much LDS in the 80's)
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To: RnMomof7; Alamo-Girl; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
Christ paid the price for our sins..He purchased us with His blood

Indeed. But only those who know and love Christ truly understand that.

The hapless clueless who willfully persist in denying/rejecting Him have no advantage from Christ's sacrifice, no share in His redemption.

Or so it seems to me. God forgive me if I'm wrong, and show me my error in thinking this way.

27 posted on 03/14/2010 6:56:47 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: stfassisi

Ping for later reading.


28 posted on 03/14/2010 7:01:33 PM PDT by JouleZ (You are the company you keep.)
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To: RnMomof7
the word redemption has a meaning ...To BUY BACK ... Christ paid the price for our sins..He purchased us with His blood ..

AMEN!

The only "redemptive suffering" that merits salvation is Christ's suffering on the cross. And that suffering was payment in full for all the sins of His flock.

Roman Catholics show no understanding of the book of Hebrews (and not much of the rest of the Bible either.)

29 posted on 03/14/2010 7:01:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: stfassisi
Redemptive Suffering
Through church, Jesus ministers to all who are sick in the world
'Amazing Grace for Those Who Suffer'
Pope Benedict asks sick to offer up suffering for priests (Catholic Caucus)
Why Must I Suffer?

On the Advantages of Tribulations by Saint Alphonsus Liguori
Why Be Catholic? 3: Suffering [Ecumenical]
"Love Really Can Make Suffering Bearable": Woman with Spina Bifida
Experts at Euthanasia Symposium Stress Unity, Strategy, and the Triumph of Love over Suffering
Holy Father prays for peace and unity, encourages the suffering to trust in God

Joy-Filled Suffering, Laetare Sunday
Children 'Suffering >From Lack Of Two-Parent Family', Study Finds
Pope Says Euthanasia 'False Solution' to Suffering, Alludes to Comatose Woman's Fate
Excerpts from THE FRUITS OF HIS LOVE - The Value Of Suffering - Mother M. Angelica
Why Not You? (on suffering)

Vicar takes down crucifixion sculpture 'because it's a scary depiction of suffering'
The Value of Suffering in the Life of Christian Perfection
IN BRUSH WITH DEATH, PRIEST SHOWN HELL, PURGATORY, DEGREES OF SUFFERING
Prayers to Saint Agatha [For Those Suffering from Breast Cancer]
REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING(Catholic Caucus or by Invitation Only)

30 posted on 03/14/2010 7:03:05 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: eCSMaster; stfassisi; mlizzy

**I would also ask - how does one know that the acceptance of suffering is truly doing God’s will and not simply some kind of masochism?**

Offering it up is much better than complaining about it or constantly talking about all your pains.

BTw, pray for a friend of mine with fibromyalgia whom I fear is becoming addicted to the pain medications.


31 posted on 03/14/2010 7:06:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: betty boop
Still it seems to me (whether canonical or not) that one cannot "through works", indulgences, or whatever, mitigate the consequences of our sins. If others suffer because of our own sinful actions, how can we escape the due measure of compensatory suffering that our sinful acts deserve?

The core of the Gospel is that the Christian does not get what he deserves; praise the Lord!

Is the state of your knowledge regarding such matters better than mine? If so, I'm dying to hear the details.

Grew up Catholic for 20 years, fully catechised. Started reading scripture; now a reformed evangelical.

If Christ's suffering were alone sufficient to save everyone universally, that would seem to me (crudely) analogous to the situation of banning "preexisting conditions" from underwriting consideration in health insurance. If everyone waited to purchase medical insurance until becoming desperately ill, the health insurance business would utterly collapse. The idea of "insurance" would become impossible. [I really am sorry for this clumsy metaphor; but I think it might get my point across.]

I certainly am not arguing for universal salvation. In fact, I am a 5 point Calvanist; I believe in limited atonement (Christ died for the elect only)

In short, Christ's suffering is on behalf of those called to love him — i.e., those who "buy into Him" before the critical need. Not those who, on their death bed, finally acknowledge Him, on a sort of Pascal's Wager.... Though if the end-life testimony/appeal of such is genuinely sincere, I imagine Christ, Who is Truth and Justice, would not turn them away....

I agree with the "those called to love Him"; i.e. the elect. Here on earth, the manifestation of that calling will differ. Some of the elect will profess faith in Him at an early age. Some will not until the very end; witness the Good Thief. The bottom line is that the elect were chosen before the formation of the world. They are His. They will display faith and will produce works in keeping with their salvation.

Thus Christ is not indiscriminate in His salvation. For one thing, He cannot save those who refuse Him. God's Creation is — among other things — an expression of divine economy....

I completely agree. He is absolutely discriminate- He saves those He chooses to save (interestingly this is frequently quoted by Catholics as well; not that they would buy into election).


32 posted on 03/14/2010 7:08:27 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: reaganaut

And St. Terese of Lisseux who offered up all the suffering from her tuberculosis — in slience.


33 posted on 03/14/2010 7:09:50 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Yes, her as well.


34 posted on 03/14/2010 7:12:29 PM PDT by reaganaut (Don't mind me, I did a little to much LDS in the 80's)
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To: RnMomof7
One has to wonder by Christ bothered if men could do it for themselves and others..

It's Christ who allows His most humble and loving to JOIN in suffering

Only the spiritually blind and prideful can not understand this type of sacrificial love

Please stop posting me!

35 posted on 03/14/2010 8:14:24 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Salvation; reaganaut
And St. Terese of Lisseux who offered up all the suffering from her tuberculosis

My favorite quote from her....

"I understood that the Church has a heart, that this heart was burning with love, and that it is love alone which gives life to its members; that if this love ever became extinct, the Apostles would no longer preach the Gospel, and the Martyrs would refuse to shed their blood. I understood that love comprised all vocations, that love was everything, that it embraced all times and places...in a word, that it was eternal! Then, in the excess of my delirious joy, I cried out; O Jesus my love...my vocation, at last I have found it...my vocation is love!" - Saint Therese of Lisieux

36 posted on 03/14/2010 8:40:11 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: betty boop; Excellence; stfassisi; Alamo-Girl
My "best guess": Sin, though forgiven, still leaves its indelible trace in the world

Then it's pointless to speak of "regeneration." Besides, the Bible–which is your guide–says that God "will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." [Heb 8:12]

The punishment that penitent sinners receive is not eternal damnation in Hell; rather, according to Catholic doctrine, the "punishment" consists of a mandatory post-death period of salutary purgation

My understanding is that Catholic dogma considers purgation a necessity only for those who have died with some unrepentant sin, but have nevertheless been saved, since no repentance is possible after death.

From the Catholic Catechism:

In other words, the way I read it is that if you recieve the last rites, that is, before your death you confess your sins and re absolved of them, then you do not die "imperfectly purified" and your soul is not subjected to purgation.

37 posted on 03/14/2010 8:42:36 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50
In other words, the way I read it is that if you recieve the last rites, that is, before your death you confess your sins and re absolved of them, then you do not die "imperfectly purified" and your soul is not subjected to purgation.

I would agree,but I think it depends on the confession being of a truly contrite heart

How are you,dear brother?I have been praying very hard for your return to your Orthodox faith

38 posted on 03/14/2010 8:50:04 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: armydoc; betty boop
He is absolutely discriminate...

LOL!


39 posted on 03/14/2010 9:00:32 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: stfassisi
I would agree,but I think it depends on the confession being of a truly contrite heart

Is there any other kind? Confession must include repentance, and repentance means permanent change of mind (metanoia). It isn't just saying "Gee, I'm sorry."

I am fine, SFA. Much obliged.

40 posted on 03/14/2010 9:27:29 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: betty boop; Quix; Excellence; stfassisi; kosta50
Thank you oh so very much for sharing your testimony, dearest sister in Christ, and your insights!

Truly, we Christians must also suffer as part of our redemption. Thank you dear brother in Christ for your wonderful testimony and insights!

For the Scriptures say:

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. - Romans 8:14-17

Concerning the disposition of my sins, I rely on God's perfect justice.

His justice is that we each individually build the scales whereby we will be each and individually measured – weight by weight.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. – Matthew 7:1-2

God assures the balance:

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37

Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matt 5:7

Forgiveness is the precondition to having our petitions granted. In the Lord's Prayer, we agree:

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. - Matt 6:12

And after giving us the Lord's Prayer, Jesus says:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. - Matt 6:13-14

And again here:

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. – Mark 11:24-26

And I personally extend it to forgive and forget, because that is His justice for us, His adopted children:

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. - Hebrews 10:14-18

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

41 posted on 03/14/2010 10:34:48 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

AMEN! AMEN!


42 posted on 03/14/2010 10:49:31 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; Excellence; stfassisi
In other words, the way I read it is that if you recieve the last rites, that is, before your death you confess your sins and re absolved of them, then you do not die "imperfectly purified" and your soul is not subjected to purgation.

I don't read it that way, dear kosta. It seems to me God's justice is not to be had that cheaply. A truly penitent sinner is forgiven — but that does not cancel the sinner's obligation or restitution for wrongs caused by the sin. In other words, the Lord's Justice metes measure for measure. Thus, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

Or at least this is my belief, as matters presently stand....

43 posted on 03/14/2010 11:16:55 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: Quix
Brilliant, brother Q.

Sort of on the subject, this was just posted:

http://ft111.com/tavolacci.htm

44 posted on 03/15/2010 2:13:41 AM PDT by oprahstheantichrist (The MSM is a demonic stronghold, PLEASE pray accordingly - 2 Corinthians 10:3-5)
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To: Salvation
BTw, pray for a friend of mine with fibromyalgia whom I fear is becoming addicted to the pain medications.

Ask your friend how much water (bottled in clear plastic, spring water, not "drinking" water) she drinks in a day. She needs 2 ounces for every ounce of body weight. If she's not drinking that much, tell her to try it ... takes care of a MULTITUDE of health issues ... including fibromyalgia.

Also, here is a testimony from someone with the illness that uses Young Living Essential Oils to aid:

I was introduced to Young Living Essential Oils and NingXia Red in March 2007. I was looking for a natural way to deal with the pain I had been suffering with fibromyalgia since 2005. I used to hurt the worse in the morning, aching so bad I could barely move. After the first bottle of NingXia Red I realized how much better I felt. Then I learned of the oils for pain including Pan Away, Lemongrass and Lavender. These all help with the deep muscle aches associated with fibromyalgia. I learned that acidosis, the state of pH in our bodies that is too acidic, is a starting place for many ailments, so I chose to avoid coffee, sugar and MSG (monosodium glutamate, a food additive). If I needed something sweet I would choose fruit, toast with honey or nuts drizzled with real maple syrup. I also started drinking more water, which I would add oils to, including peppermint, lemon or grapefruit. After just 2 months of these changes I have increased energy and a significant reduction of pain. I can now wake in the mornings and move freely. I have also lost 16 lbs. Many thanks to God and to the people of Young Living. Christine McCullough

And here's our site re: Young Living. If I can be of help, Salvation, give me a holler. Your friend doesn't have to live with so much pain.
45 posted on 03/15/2010 4:04:53 AM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: kosta50

Obviously you did not understand my point. I was talking about the ultimate “partiality” of election; He saves those He will save based on His divine partiality.


46 posted on 03/15/2010 5:04:47 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: betty boop

“”It seems to me God’s justice is not to be had that cheaply. A truly penitent sinner is forgiven — but that does not cancel the sinner’s obligation or restitution for wrongs caused by the sin. In other words, the Lord’s Justice metes measure for measure. Thus, “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.”””

I agree with the measure for measure ,but we can not rule out the possibility there could be some people that go directly to heaven after death because they have led very holy lives and “paid back the last penny” and than some for others that God allowed through reparation. I would think this is not the norm and such people are Saintly while here on earth.

Anyway,here is a great article by the late FR William Most on the measure by measure

How Redemption Operated
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=160

Excerpt..

So Paul VI continues:”For every sin brings with it a disturbance of the universal order, which God arranged in unspeakable wisdom and infinite love.” In other words, God being Holiness itself, loves everything that is right. This was a striking idea when it first broke on the world. For the gods of Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome were not just immoral but amoral - they acted as if there were no morality at all. But Psalm 11:7 told the world: “God is sadiq [morally righteous] and He loves the things that are morally right.” Hence the notion that sin is a debt which the Holiness of God wants paid.

Against this background Paul VI continued (p. 7): “Therefore it is necessary for the full remission and reparation of sins... not only that by a sincere conversion of mind friendship with God be restored, and that the offenses against His wisdom and goodness be expiated, but also that all the goods, both personal and social, which pertain to the universal order itself, which were diminished or destroyed by sin, be fully restored, either through voluntary reparation... or through enduring penalties established by the just and most holy Wisdom of God.”

Since the chief topic of this constitution was that of indulgences, which depend on the “treasury of the Church” Paul VI put the redemption into that background. He said the “treasury of the Church is the infinite and inexhaustible price which the expiations and merits of Christ the Lord has before God....”

Simeon ben Eleazar, a Rabbi writing about 170 A.D. (Tosefta, Kiddushin 1. 14), and claiming to base himself on Rabbi Meir from earlier in the same century, gives us a striking comparison which helps to illustrate the text of Paul VI: “He [meaning “anyone”] has committed a transgression. Woe to him. He has tipped the scale to the side of debt for himself and for the world.”

The image is a two-pan scales. The sinner takes from one pan what he has no right to have. The scale is out of balance. The Holiness of God wants it righted. How do that? If he stole some property, he begins to rebalance by giving it back. If he stole a pleasure, he begins to rebalance by giving up some pleasure of similar weight.

But we kept saying “begins”. For the imbalance from even one mortal sin is infinite, an Infinite Person is offended. So if the Father wanted a full rebalance - He did not have to - the only way to achieve it would be to send a divine Person to become man. That Person could produce an infinite value. Paul VI put the redemption into this framework.

All sinners of all times took an immense weight from the two-pan scales. But Jesus gave up far more than they had stolen, in His terrible passion.

So this is the price of redemption, the rebalancing of the objective order, which the Holiness of God willed. Rom 5:8 said,”God proved His love.” Yes, if someone desires the well-being of another, and starts out to procure it, but then runs into an obstacle - if a small obstacle will stop him, the love is small. If it takes a great obstacle, the love is great. But if that love could overcome even the immense obstacle of the terrible death of Jesus, that love is immense, beyond measure. It was not only the physical pain, but the rejection by those whom He loved that hurt Him. The pain of rejection can be measured by two things: 1) how severe is the form of the rejection; 2) how great is the love for the one who is rejecting. If someone jostles me in a crowd, that is a small thing. But if he wanted to kill me, that is far worse, and if he means to do it in the most hideous way possible - then the rejection is at the peak . And what is His love?: Inasmuch as He is a Divine Person, the love is infinite; in as much as we consider the love of His human will, able to overcome such a measureless obstacle - the love is beyond measure.


47 posted on 03/15/2010 5:30:41 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Quix

Wow, that is your best post yet. Thank you.


48 posted on 03/15/2010 7:25:44 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: oprahstheantichrist

Thanks for your humbling words.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WAYS OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD.

Your link is worth sharing, I think:

http://ft111.com/tavolacci.htm

ELAINE TAVOLACCI
Staten Island, NY

www.awordinseason.info

“Step Up to the Plate”

March 11, 2010
The Lord says I Am calling those of you who have been looked upon as “the underdog” to step forward and take your rightful place in My Kingdom. I am calling those of you who have been considered outcasts. I am calling those that have been mocked, scorned, shunned and abused. Those of you that have been forsaken and rejected it is now your time to step up to the plate in My Kingdom.
You have heard it said that there is a shifting, a shaking, and a changing of the guard and this is rightfully so. Have I not said in My Word that I will resist the proud and give grace to the humble? Do not feel inadequate or allow your human reasoning to dictate to you. Do not look at your circumstances in the natural. I Am about to turn things around for My glory. I will take the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Do not be concerned and wonder to yourselves how this can come to pass. For I have plans beyond mere mortal reasoning. Just trust in Me to make this shift.

Do not think that you need a podium, a pulpit or a platform to reach the multitudes. I will make a way for you to be My voice. Every place on which the sole of your foot treads I will give to you for this shall be your platform. I will use you in the highways, the byways as well as the marketplace. Do not say in your heart that you are not worthy to be used in a great magnitude. Do not see yourself as a grasshopper when I called you to be a giant slayer. I will open new and productive doors for you and I will bring you out to bring you in to what I have for you as you move forward one step at a time.

Watch and see how I will bring those of you that have been considered the underdog to the front lines. I will turn things around in your life and do things that will astound you as you step up to the plate and trust Me says the Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:26 - 29
For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.

James 4:6
But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “ God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble”.


49 posted on 03/15/2010 8:06:33 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Marysecretary

Half expected you to say that. LOL.

PRAISE GOD FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS through this poor tool.

Thanks for your kind and humbling words.


50 posted on 03/15/2010 8:23:34 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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