Redemptive Suffering

http://www.thedefender.org/RedemptiveSuffering.html ^ | unknown | Fr. Yves Conger

[betty boop]

If this cleansing can indeed be applied (imputed) without suffering by the individual with equivalent cleansing effect, why isn't Christ's suffering alone sufficient and why isn't it applied to all in full measure?

I don't know, armydoc. But the state of my knowledge of these matters is not the measure of them. Still it seems to me (whether canonical or not) that one cannot "through works", indulgences, or whatever, mitigate the consequences of our sins. If others suffer because of our own sinful actions, how can we escape the due measure of compensatory suffering that our sinful acts deserve?

Is the state of your knowledge regarding such matters better than mine? If so, I'm dying to hear the details.

If Christ's suffering were alone sufficient to save everyone universally, that would seem to me (crudely) analogous to the situation of banning "preexisting conditions" from underwriting consideration in health insurance. If everyone waited to purchase medical insurance until becoming desperately ill, the health insurance business would utterly collapse. The idea of "insurance" would become impossible. [I really am sorry for this clumsy metaphor; but I think it might get my point across.]

In short, Christ's suffering is on behalf of those called to love him — i.e., those who "buy into Him" before the critical need. Not those who, on their death bed, finally acknowledge Him, on a sort of Pascal's Wager.... Though if the end-life testimony/appeal of such is genuinely sincere, I imagine Christ, Who is Truth and Justice, would not turn them away....

Thus Christ is not indiscriminate in His salvation. For one thing, He cannot save those who refuse Him. God's Creation is — among other things — an expression of divine economy....

Or so it seems to me.

I don't know whether these lines make any sense to you, armydoc. But it's the best I can do for now.

Thank you so much for writing!

[Quix]

INDEED.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind reply.

[Quix]

I pray that your SIL and family are still recovering well and growing in the trust and stature of The Lord. May your prayers together in time and/or space enlighten all your lives in His Love.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind, understanding and substantive reply.

Praise God for His faithfulness to teach us His Ways.

[reaganaut]

I’m reminded of Alice of Sharbeek who, while suffering from (medieval)leprosy, daily offered up her suffering on behalf of others.

[betty boop]

Christ paid the price for our sins..He purchased us with His blood

Indeed. But only those who know and love Christ truly understand that.

The hapless clueless who willfully persist in denying/rejecting Him have no advantage from Christ's sacrifice, no share in His redemption.

Or so it seems to me. God forgive me if I'm wrong, and show me my error in thinking this way.

[JouleZ]

Ping for later reading.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

the word redemption has a meaning ...To BUY BACK ... Christ paid the price for our sins..He purchased us with His blood ..

AMEN!

The only "redemptive suffering" that merits salvation is Christ's suffering on the cross. And that suffering was payment in full for all the sins of His flock.

Roman Catholics show no understanding of the book of Hebrews (and not much of the rest of the Bible either.)

[Salvation]

Redemptive Suffering
Through church, Jesus ministers to all who are sick in the world
'Amazing Grace for Those Who Suffer'
Pope Benedict asks sick to offer up suffering for priests (Catholic Caucus)
Why Must I Suffer?

On the Advantages of Tribulations by Saint Alphonsus Liguori
Why Be Catholic? 3: Suffering [Ecumenical]
"Love Really Can Make Suffering Bearable": Woman with Spina Bifida
Experts at Euthanasia Symposium Stress Unity, Strategy, and the Triumph of Love over Suffering
Holy Father prays for peace and unity, encourages the suffering to trust in God

Joy-Filled Suffering, Laetare Sunday
Children 'Suffering >From Lack Of Two-Parent Family', Study Finds
Pope Says Euthanasia 'False Solution' to Suffering, Alludes to Comatose Woman's Fate
Excerpts from THE FRUITS OF HIS LOVE - The Value Of Suffering - Mother M. Angelica
Why Not You? (on suffering)

Vicar takes down crucifixion sculpture 'because it's a scary depiction of suffering'
The Value of Suffering in the Life of Christian Perfection
IN BRUSH WITH DEATH, PRIEST SHOWN HELL, PURGATORY, DEGREES OF SUFFERING
Prayers to Saint Agatha [For Those Suffering from Breast Cancer]
REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING(Catholic Caucus or by Invitation Only)

[Salvation]

**I would also ask - how does one know that the acceptance of suffering is truly doing God’s will and not simply some kind of masochism?**

Offering it up is much better than complaining about it or constantly talking about all your pains.

BTw, pray for a friend of mine with fibromyalgia whom I fear is becoming addicted to the pain medications.

[armydoc]

Still it seems to me (whether canonical or not) that one cannot "through works", indulgences, or whatever, mitigate the consequences of our sins. If others suffer because of our own sinful actions, how can we escape the due measure of compensatory suffering that our sinful acts deserve?

The core of the Gospel is that the Christian does not get what he deserves; praise the Lord!

Is the state of your knowledge regarding such matters better than mine? If so, I'm dying to hear the details.

Grew up Catholic for 20 years, fully catechised. Started reading scripture; now a reformed evangelical.

If Christ's suffering were alone sufficient to save everyone universally, that would seem to me (crudely) analogous to the situation of banning "preexisting conditions" from underwriting consideration in health insurance. If everyone waited to purchase medical insurance until becoming desperately ill, the health insurance business would utterly collapse. The idea of "insurance" would become impossible. [I really am sorry for this clumsy metaphor; but I think it might get my point across.]

I certainly am not arguing for universal salvation. In fact, I am a 5 point Calvanist; I believe in limited atonement (Christ died for the elect only)

In short, Christ's suffering is on behalf of those called to love him — i.e., those who "buy into Him" before the critical need. Not those who, on their death bed, finally acknowledge Him, on a sort of Pascal's Wager.... Though if the end-life testimony/appeal of such is genuinely sincere, I imagine Christ, Who is Truth and Justice, would not turn them away....

I agree with the "those called to love Him"; i.e. the elect. Here on earth, the manifestation of that calling will differ. Some of the elect will profess faith in Him at an early age. Some will not until the very end; witness the Good Thief. The bottom line is that the elect were chosen before the formation of the world. They are His. They will display faith and will produce works in keeping with their salvation.

Thus Christ is not indiscriminate in His salvation. For one thing, He cannot save those who refuse Him. God's Creation is — among other things — an expression of divine economy....

I completely agree. He is absolutely discriminate- He saves those He chooses to save (interestingly this is frequently quoted by Catholics as well; not that they would buy into election).

[Salvation]

And St. Terese of Lisseux who offered up all the suffering from her tuberculosis — in slience.

[reaganaut]

Yes, her as well.

[stfassisi]

One has to wonder by Christ bothered if men could do it for themselves and others..

It's Christ who allows His most humble and loving to JOIN in suffering

Only the spiritually blind and prideful can not understand this type of sacrificial love

Please stop posting me!

[stfassisi]

And St. Terese of Lisseux who offered up all the suffering from her tuberculosis

My favorite quote from her....

"I understood that the Church has a heart, that this heart was burning with love, and that it is love alone which gives life to its members; that if this love ever became extinct, the Apostles would no longer preach the Gospel, and the Martyrs would refuse to shed their blood. I understood that love comprised all vocations, that love was everything, that it embraced all times and places...in a word, that it was eternal! Then, in the excess of my delirious joy, I cried out; O Jesus my love...my vocation, at last I have found it...my vocation is love!" - Saint Therese of Lisieux

[kosta50]

My "best guess": Sin, though forgiven, still leaves its indelible trace in the world

Then it's pointless to speak of "regeneration." Besides, the Bible–which is your guide–says that God "will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." [Heb 8:12]

The punishment that penitent sinners receive is not eternal damnation in Hell; rather, according to Catholic doctrine, the "punishment" consists of a mandatory post-death period of salutary purgation

My understanding is that Catholic dogma considers purgation a necessity only for those who have died with some unrepentant sin, but have nevertheless been saved, since no repentance is possible after death.

From the Catholic Catechism:

"1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

In other words, the way I read it is that if you recieve the last rites, that is, before your death you confess your sins and re absolved of them, then you do not die "imperfectly purified" and your soul is not subjected to purgation.

[stfassisi]

In other words, the way I read it is that if you recieve the last rites, that is, before your death you confess your sins and re absolved of them, then you do not die "imperfectly purified" and your soul is not subjected to purgation.

I would agree,but I think it depends on the confession being of a truly contrite heart

How are you,dear brother?I have been praying very hard for your return to your Orthodox faith

[kosta50]

He is absolutely discriminate...

LOL!

"the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe" - Deu 10:17

"our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe" - 2 Chron 19:17

"for You are not partial to any" - Mat 22:16

"for You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth" - Mark 12:14

"Peter said: 'I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality'" - Acts 10:34

"For there is no partiality with God" - Rom 2:11

"God shows no partiality" - Gal 2:6

[kosta50]

I would agree,but I think it depends on the confession being of a truly contrite heart

Is there any other kind? Confession must include repentance, and repentance means permanent change of mind (metanoia). It isn't just saying "Gee, I'm sorry."

I am fine, SFA. Much obliged.