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Vatican Defends Decision Not to Defrock U.S. Priest
Reuters ^ | 3/25/10 | Philip Pullella

Posted on 03/25/2010 7:00:24 AM PDT by marshmallow

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican did not discipline a Catholic priest accused of sexually abusing up to 200 deaf boys in the United States from the 1950s to the 1970s as Church laws do not require automatic punishment, its spokesman said on Thursday.

The New York Times reported on Thursday that the Vatican did not defrock Rev. Lawrence Murphy in the late 1990s despite receiving clear warnings from his bishops that his case was serious and could embarrass the Church.

The report came amid mounting allegations of sexual abuse by priests in Europe and pressure on bishops, mostly in Ireland, to resign for failing to report cases to civil authorities.

Among 25 internal Church documents the Times posted on its website was a 1996 letter about Murphy to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, then the Vatican's top doctrinal official and now Pope Benedict, showing he was informed of his case.

Ratzinger's deputy first advised a secret disciplinary trial but later reversed that in 1998 after Murphy appealed directly to Ratzinger for clemency. The priest died later that year.

Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said in a statement that Murphy had broken the law but a civil probe into complaints against him in the mid-1970s had been dropped and the Vatican only learned of the allegations 20 years later.

"The canonical (Church law) question presented to the Congregation was unrelated to any potential civil or criminal proceedings against Father Murphy," Lombardi said.

"In such cases, the Code of Canon Law does not envision automatic penalties."

EXTENSIVE PAPER TRAIL

The 1996 letter to Ratzinger from the then Milwaukee Archbishop Rembert Weakland was not answered, the Times said.

After eight months, Weakland wrote a second letter to Ratzinger's deputy at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), .....................

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: b16; benedict; benedictxvi; bxvi; catholic; pedophilepriests; pedophileprotectors; pedophiles; pope; priests; ratzinger; scandal; vatican
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More on the BBC story in another thread.

The Pope's crime: failing to respond to two letters from Weakland 20 years after the events.

1 posted on 03/25/2010 7:00:24 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
The Pope's crime: failing to respond to two letters from Weakland 20 years after the events.

Because since the abuse occurred 20 years ago that means it's not as bad today.

The Pope's crime is not taking action to protect innocent children.
2 posted on 03/25/2010 7:04:04 AM PDT by TSgt (When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: marshmallow

I think this is related to two things:

The Chruch viewing Homosexauls as o.k. in the Priesthood as long as they are not overtly practicing homosexuals, and

The requirement for a celebate lifestyle in the Regular Clergy.

Both actions invite homosexuals. And although not all homosexuals are sexual predators, it is an abberration in which that kind of behavior can florish, especially given the authority that goes with the clerical robe.


3 posted on 03/25/2010 7:06:17 AM PDT by ZULU
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To: marshmallow

In a related way, Pius XII didn’t say anything about the Holocaust.


4 posted on 03/25/2010 7:07:32 AM PDT by OldNavyVet (One trillion days, at 365 days per year, is 2,739,726,027 years. That's 2.739 billion years.)
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To: marshmallow

Then Abp. Ratzinger was probably confused by the situation of the flaming gay liberal Weakland reporting on someone else. The priest in question was dying at the time and passed away within a year. Weakland may have been trying to divert suspicion from himself.


5 posted on 03/25/2010 7:11:04 AM PDT by iowamark
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To: MikeWUSAF
The Pope's crime is not taking action to protect innocent children.

Be honest.

Did you actually read the article?

The abuse occurred in the '70s, the Vatican was not notified until 20 years later and the priest died in '98 after a prolonged period of poor health.

Minor details.

Archbishop Weakland, himself a homosexual, is the malefactor here.

6 posted on 03/25/2010 7:12:15 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow

Look, if the NY Times wants to criticize the Pope for not removing these priests from contact with children and alerting the proper authorities that is fine and I am in general agreement. If, however, the criticism (as it is in this case) is that the Pope did not take the opportunity to defrock a terminally ill priest 20 years after the fact and 4 months before he died because the Pope accepted his repentance, what is a secular newspaper’s standing for that criticism?

Whether he is defrocked or not has no effect on his ability to perpetrate any future injury or crime, and the Pope’s reasoning in granting mercy and accepting repentance from a sinner is WAY above my paygrade and something that has absolutely no relevance to the secular criminal justice system.

How can it not be clear that the NY Times has declared war on the Catholic Church when they give a front page headline to this as the latest in a series of articles on abuses by priests?


7 posted on 03/25/2010 7:17:18 AM PDT by Lonely NY Conservative
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To: marshmallow

Oh...oh...I thought this was about the non-Catholic priest who runs Notre Dame...never mind...


8 posted on 03/25/2010 7:22:23 AM PDT by matginzac
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To: marshmallow

Excuse me- but are not Nazis who participated in crimes against humanity over 50 years ago still being hunted and prosecuted if found? Are they any less guilty of horror and evil because they are doddering old men? Are they excused now?

BECAUSE this is about people who claim to represent GOD we should be more determined to expunge them from the clergy. Covering up such evil, sick abuse of authority and religion cannot be tolerated.
HOW DARE THEY- Pope or anyone else- expect to be excused for tolerating( and aiding!)evil? Why should they not be as reviled as lay people who allow boyfriends and relatives to sexually abuse their children?
Let the heads roll- from the parishes to the Vatican! Better a smaller, clean Church than a large, diseased one.
I am one Roman Catholic who is sick of this, and unafraid of prosecuting ANY and EVERYone involved-past and present.
I want to KNOW if my parish priest- or any clergy that wants me to respect and honor them as consecrated servants of God- is/has violated anyone or is homosexual, since that makes them illegitimate priests with no right to perform as one. And I will- and do- ask directly.
If they are offended, I conclude that they are- at least- tolerant and defensive of such ,
We can no longer safely assume otherwise; the clergy should be as outraged as we are. What’s the popular argument re.
‘good’ Muslims? The good should clean house- if they won’t I won’t assume they are good.


9 posted on 03/25/2010 7:25:11 AM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: MikeWUSAF

Amen.

LLS


10 posted on 03/25/2010 7:26:38 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Wolverine!)
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To: ClearBlueSky
You'll have a problem prosecuting this guy.

He's dead.

And when he was alive it was the civil authorities who declined to prosecute. Weakland was his bishop so it's no surprise that there was mess.

11 posted on 03/25/2010 7:28:43 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow
Meanwhile, the Catholic Church refuses to defrock or excommunicate open Communists, a.k.a. practicioners of so-called 'liberation theology'.

Why creeps like Father Pfleger and his ilk that advocate for a political philosophy that has resulted in the cold-blooded murder of over 100 million people can still be a Catholic priest in good standing is mind-blowing.

12 posted on 03/25/2010 7:36:13 AM PDT by bassmaner (Hey commies: I am a white male, and I am guilty of NOTHING! Sell your 'white guilt' elsewhere.)
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To: marshmallow

“The Vatican did not discipline a Catholic priest accused of sexually abusing up to 200 deaf boys”

He, like any other disgusting pervert that abuses children ought to be taken out and f**king GUT SHOT!


13 posted on 03/25/2010 7:38:19 AM PDT by Grunthor (Over YOUR dead body!)
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To: MikeWUSAF
The abuse occurred (a minimum of) 22 years before the Vatican was notified. The abuse took place between 1960 and 1974; the Vatican heard about it in 1996.

The police and prosecutors didn't bother to bring charges.

The local bishop(s) all dropped the ball.

But everything is the Vatican's fault. The agenda is completely transparent.

14 posted on 03/25/2010 7:46:39 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Grunthor

You do realize that he is already dead, right?


15 posted on 03/25/2010 7:46:50 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: marshmallow

So the dead guy got away with it. He was no longer a legitimate priest when he died and should not have been buried as one. Can’t change that now- but can’t continue to excuse the reasoning that allowed it either, can we?
The thinking- the knee-jerk defense- of such sickos in the Church has gotten us to this point. Instead of protecting the Church and its credibility, they care more about protecting each other- and the Church sickens.
If the Vatican loves the diseased priests more than the Church, it is self-destructing.
Bring it ALL out in the open- the guilty and those who protected and excused them. Let them shrivel in the light of truth instead of cloaking themselves in false honor and respectability. I will not take sacraments from hypocritical pedophiles or those who have excused and protected them. No one should.


16 posted on 03/25/2010 7:47:47 AM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: OldNavyVet

The Nazis sure thought he did.


17 posted on 03/25/2010 7:48:18 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: ClearBlueSky
Do you have any harsh words toward the police and the district attorneys who heard the victims' complaints and ignored them, according to the NY Times article?

Or is it all the Pope's fault?

18 posted on 03/25/2010 7:49:07 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: vladimir998

I do.....I made a mistake in tense present/past.

My apologies.


19 posted on 03/25/2010 7:53:04 AM PDT by Grunthor (Over YOUR dead body!)
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To: Campion

OH, I agree that there is an agenda here. But the Church is helping it!
The answer is not to ignore this to thwart the agenda- it is to CLEAN HOUSE so the agenda is useless!

22 years ago is STILL happening. The mindset is still there, up to the Vatican. You think it’s not?
Look at it this way- it took this long to hear about this extreme case, how many less extreme will we never hear about because the protectionist mindset still dominates? How many will we hear about 20 years from now?
This is about civil law and child abuse AND church law and breaking vows. BOTH sets of laws should be enforced without prejudice. Forgiveness and mercy for their souls can be discussed AFTER the deed has been lawfully punished.


20 posted on 03/25/2010 7:57:32 AM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: ClearBlueSky
Since WW2 ended about 65 years it would be more accurate to use than 50 years. Japanese and American soldiers were as cruel as Nazis yet no hunting them down. Selected prosecution is demanded by some like you.Your rant is all about vigilante justice and is the reason we have Statute of Limitations to handle situations as these.
21 posted on 03/25/2010 8:00:17 AM PDT by bronx2
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To: Campion

OH, I paint everyone involved with this sickness with the same brush. The difference is- I EXPECT more from the Pope, morally.
Corrupt, lazy, inept, unconcerned cops and lawyers are no big surprise.The higher the moral authority one claims, the more is expected in the fight between good and evil.


22 posted on 03/25/2010 8:02:08 AM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: bronx2

Selected prosecution re. RAPING children!?! That’s bad?
Damned right I’m for selectively prosecuting such people right up to the grave, and reviling them after they’re rotting .At least the still living Nazis have the sense to hide- guilty priests are still pretending to be innocent and respectable.


23 posted on 03/25/2010 8:06:27 AM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: Campion

Excuse it all you want, Ratzinger’s name is all over this!

But any attempt to point out his involvement or bring visibility to any abuse or cover-up by the Catholic church is considered slander and agenda driven.

I never cease to be amazed at the lengths people will go to protect pedophiles!


24 posted on 03/25/2010 8:07:01 AM PDT by TSgt (When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: vladimir998

That’s news to me ... and I remember those years well.


25 posted on 03/25/2010 8:10:56 AM PDT by OldNavyVet (One trillion days, at 365 days per year, is 2,739,726,027 years ... almost 3 billion years.)
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To: MikeWUSAF

You refuse to see the facts that people have pointed to you, and have already prejudged the matter.


26 posted on 03/25/2010 8:12:05 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: marshmallow

And Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was supposed to believe Waekland?

Evidently, these non-Catholics have not heard of Waekland or the wreckovation he engineered while a Bishop.


27 posted on 03/25/2010 8:12:20 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: marshmallow

“The Pope’s crime: failing to respond to two letters from Weakland 20 years after the events.”

No, it sounds like the Pope’s failure was failing to take these charges seriously.

Here is a scenario for you: a Baptist deacon is told the pastor sexually abused several young children during a Bible Camp. The deacon spends months deciding if he should discuss the matter with anyone else, and if it is serious enough to require investigation.

In the end, he talks to the pastor, who, in Rev Lombardi’s phrasing, agrees to restrict his public ministry and accepts full responsibility for the gravity of his acts. The Baptist pastor moves on to another congregation and spends the rest of his life interacting with young children.

Would you defend the Baptists for their non-handling of that scenario? I wouldn’t!

Also, from the BBC article: “The Rev Peter Hullermann had been accused of abusing boys in the 1970s when the now Pope approved his 1980 transfer to Munich to receive psychological treatment for paedophilia. Hullermann was convicted in 1986 of abusing a youth, but stayed within the Church, serving as a village priest until 2008.”

If he needed treatment for paedophilia, he needed severe church discipline as well - NOT secret counseling, and NOT remaining a priest for 22 years after a criminal conviction!

Sorry, but the Pope & the Catholic Church have dropped the ball on this. They don’t seem to think these cases are serious...just a “Priests will be Priests” attitude.

It is appalling.


28 posted on 03/25/2010 8:12:47 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: ClearBlueSky

VIGILANTE JUSTICE JUST AS BAD


29 posted on 03/25/2010 8:13:01 AM PDT by bronx2
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To: Pyro7480
You refuse to see the facts that people have pointed to you, and have already prejudged the matter.

CHILD RAPE - Yep, let me step back and try to see this from a different more positive perspective.

The line between Michael Jackon and the Catholic church's bizarre behavior blurs more everyday.
30 posted on 03/25/2010 8:15:31 AM PDT by TSgt (When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: marshmallow

Here is a link to an article about Murphy from the site Bishop Accountability. I can not help but notice the accusations came about because of recovered memories by the chief accusers/victims. Though the article does mention one person saying he did report the abuse when it happened.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2006/03_04/2006_03_27_Zahn_StaringAbuse.htm


31 posted on 03/25/2010 8:16:56 AM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Mr Rogers

“In 2001, Pope John Paul II placed this department in charge of the investigation of child rape and torture by Catholic priests. In May of that year, Ratzinger issued a confidential letter to every bishop. In it, he reminded them of the extreme gravity of a certain crime. But that crime was the reporting of the rape and torture. The accusations, intoned Ratzinger, were only treatable within the church’s own exclusive jurisdiction. Any sharing of the evidence with legal authorities or the press was utterly forbidden. Charges were to be investigated “in the most secretive way ... restrained by a perpetual silence ... and everyone ... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office … under the penalty of excommunication.”...Nobody has yet been excommunicated for the rape and torture of children, but exposing the offense could get you into serious trouble.”

http://www.slate.com/id/2247861/


32 posted on 03/25/2010 8:20:46 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: MikeWUSAF; ZULU; OldNavyVet; iowamark; marshmallow; Lonely NY Conservative; matginzac; ...
The truth about Warkland:

Church Renovation ("Wreckovation")

Bishop Rembert Weakland 
(now retired)
Modernist militant Bishop of Milwaukee openly defies Vatican orders that his Cathedral wreckovation does not meet Church teachings.

33 posted on 03/25/2010 8:22:38 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: marshmallow

marshmallow,

I am not anti-Catholic. I have friends and family that are Catholic and I truly appreciate and honor the church’s unyielding fight to protect the unborn.

Not all priests, bishops, cardinals or pope’s are molesters.

That said, I have entirely too much integrity to see this as an agenda driven attack on the church. The facts are repulsive whether they come from the most liberal or conservative news outlets.

The abuse is systemic and unfortunately for the church, the current sitting Pope appears to be part of the problem.


34 posted on 03/25/2010 8:24:52 AM PDT by TSgt (When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: bronx2

You seem to be really afraid that pedophile priests will pay for their evil- civilly and religiously.
How is exposing and prosecuting them ‘vigilante justice’?
Vigilante’s go door to door as a mob and leave bodies in the street.
Accountability and justice under civil and Church law is not vigilantism.


35 posted on 03/25/2010 8:25:05 AM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: Salvation

First it was the psychologists fault
Then it was the local Bishop’s fault
Now it is the fault of Wreckovation

I’m shocked that Bush or Obama haven’t been blamed!


36 posted on 03/25/2010 8:27:18 AM PDT by TSgt (When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Pyro7480
The real news here has nothing to do with priests, homosexual perverts, Rembert the Vandal, or Pope Benedict.

The real story is that the Catholic-haters on this forum have not only jumped the shark, they have come crashing down in the water face first.

1) They show no evidence of having read the story.

2) They show no evidence of understanding what little they have read.

3) They show every evidence of uncritically accepting the insinuations, prevarications, and distortions spoon-fed to them by the leftist press.

They are a disgrace to this forum, and to whatever religious tradition/community/confession they represent.

37 posted on 03/25/2010 8:27:47 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: MikeWUSAF
Excuse it all you want, Ratzinger’s name is all over this!

I'm not excusing anyone.

You're the one who's excusing the police and the DA (who did nothing) and the local bishops (who did nothing) so you can point at a Pope who got two letters about it 22 years (or more) after the fact.

Are you amazed at the "lengths" the police went to to protect this particular pedophile?

38 posted on 03/25/2010 8:27:53 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: lastchance; Pyro7480; MikeWUSAF

“Here’s a little thought experiment on practical ethics. Suppose that you are having a drink with a new acquaintance and the subject of law-breaking comes up. “Ever been in any trouble with the authorities?”

You may perhaps mention your arrest at a demonstration, your smuggling of excess duty-free goods, that brush with the narcotics people, that unwise attempt at insider trading. Your counterpart may show a closer acquaintance with the criminal justice system. He once did a bit of time for forgery, or for robbery with a touch of violence, or for a domestic dispute that got a bit out of hand. You are still perhaps ready to have lunch next Friday. But what if he says: “Well, I once knew a couple who trusted me as their baby sitter. Two little boys they had—one of 12 and one of 10. A good bit of fun I had with those kids when nobody was looking. Told them it was our secret. I was sorry when it all ended.” I hope I don’t seem too judgmental if I say that at this point the lunch is canceled or indefinitely postponed.”

http://www.slate.com/id/2248557?obref=obinsite


39 posted on 03/25/2010 8:28:46 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Campion

I suspect the police’s actions were driven by the implied lack of attention to the issue by the clergy.

I excuse nobody, but you obviously do.

Are you so blinded by your faith that you cannot wrap your head around the fact that the Pope did not act to protect children who were being raped?

Think about it.


40 posted on 03/25/2010 8:30:24 AM PDT by TSgt (When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Mr Rogers
Wow, yeah, Slate is certainly an objective source.

It's hilarious how trusting certain FReepers get of the secular left when they can join it in an attack on the Catholic church.

Don't you understand that you're next?

41 posted on 03/25/2010 8:30:36 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: MikeWUSAF
I suspect the police’s actions were driven by the implied lack of attention to the issue by the clergy.

WHAT? The police and the district attorney take their cue from what Catholic clergy do?

Please return to reality soon.

Are you so blinded by your faith that you cannot wrap your head around the fact that the Pope did not act to protect children who were being raped?

The Pope didn't even know about it until at least 22 years after the fact. Do you not understand that?

42 posted on 03/25/2010 8:32:51 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Campion
Wow, yeah, Slate is certainly an objective source. It's hilarious how trusting certain FReepers get of the secular left when they can join it in an attack on the Catholic church.

Don't you understand that you're next?

***************************

Exactly right.

43 posted on 03/25/2010 8:32:57 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
The real news here has nothing to do with priests, homosexual perverts, Rembert the Vandal, or Pope Benedict.

Exactly, why would we talk about child rape? It's an icky topic...

They are a disgrace to this forum, and to whatever religious tradition/community/confession they represent.

No, we just hold integrity higher than blind faith in a flawed religious organization.
44 posted on 03/25/2010 8:33:29 AM PDT by TSgt (When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: MikeWUSAF
The line between Michael Jackon and the Catholic church's bizarre behavior blurs more everyday.

LOL! You're descending into beyond hyperbole.

45 posted on 03/25/2010 8:33:40 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Campion

According to the future Pope, “Charges were to be investigated “in the most secretive way ... restrained by a perpetual silence ... and everyone ... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office … under the penalty of excommunication.”

Here is a hint...homosexual rape, or homosexual activity with a youth (which is what most of the allegations involve) is NOT something to cover up, or to assign someone a bit of treatment and then move them on elsewhere.

Anyone who thinks so isn’t taking the Gospel seriously. Jesus said, “Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.” Double entendre intended.


46 posted on 03/25/2010 8:36:52 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: MikeWUSAF
I'm quite certain that you believe yourself to hold integrity. You say so yourself. Not being a mind-reader I cannot gainsay you.

HOWEVER: You show no evidence of it on this forum. Uncritical acceptance of the leftist media is the diametrical opposite of integrity.

47 posted on 03/25/2010 8:38:21 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Pyro7480; Campion; ArrogantBustard; marshmallow
While I appreciate the fact that the faces and names of sexual abuse victims are not published to protect them, I often wish they were so you could look them in the face and tell them it wasn't a big deal. It's not the church's fault. Sorry but shut-up. Maybe this will help.

48 posted on 03/25/2010 8:39:51 AM PDT by TSgt (When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Pyro7480

Some folks seem to call that “integrity”.


49 posted on 03/25/2010 8:40:08 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Campion

What is appalling is that Christopher Hitchens can publish an article in Slate that is truer to the demands of the Gospel than the Pope & the defenders of the Catholic Church!


50 posted on 03/25/2010 8:40:31 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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