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Clergy Abuse Threatens To Tarnish Pope's Legacy
http://news.yahoo.com/ ^ | March 26, 2010 | Victor L. Simpson

Posted on 03/26/2010 5:32:30 PM PDT by Biggirl

VATICAN CITY – The Vatican is facing one of its gravest crises of modern times as sex abuse scandals move ever closer to Pope Benedict XVI — threatening not only his own legacy but also that of his revered predecessor.Benedict took a much harder stance on sex abuse than John Paul II when he assumed the papacy five years ago, disciplining a senior cleric championed by the Polish pontiff and defrocking others under a new policy of zero tolerance.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: abuse; catholic; pope
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1 posted on 03/26/2010 5:32:31 PM PDT by Biggirl
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To: Biggirl

Utter nonsense. The MSM is clearly salivating because they think they have found a weapon to use against Pope Benedict. Ain’t gonna work.


2 posted on 03/26/2010 5:59:02 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Biggirl
But as attention focuses on Benedict, a perhaps thornier question looms over how much John Paul II, beloved worldwide for his inspirational charisma and courageous stand against communism, knew about sex abuse cases and whether he was too tolerant of pedophile priests.

They're still pushing the "pedophile priests" line. I noticed the same phrase in the recent Washington Post coverage.

It is a lie. There was very little sexual abuse of pre-pubescent kids. The problem was overwhelmingly that of gay pederasty: gay priests assaulting young post-pubescent males.

The MSM can't acknowledge that one of their cherished victim groups might have been responsible for this horror, so they lie about it, again and again and again.

3 posted on 03/26/2010 6:07:54 PM PDT by TChad
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To: vladimir998

It is a parade of MSM lies fueled by Anti Catholic/Christ goons on the FR forum and trying to re crucify Christ.

So stupid.


4 posted on 03/26/2010 6:20:02 PM PDT by Global2010 (We have De Humanized our Society because we have De Christianize our society. Fr.Corapi)
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To: TChad

You’re right. The stories always say pedophile priests - the majority were post pubsescent boys. They never talk about homosexual priests which I believe is the true crime.


5 posted on 03/26/2010 6:25:35 PM PDT by NotSoFreeStater (If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice)
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To: Biggirl

Boy, they sure are pushing this vile propaganda against the Holy Father really hard now.


6 posted on 03/26/2010 6:51:26 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin/Hunter 2012 -- Bolton their Secretary of State)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: Biggirl
There will always be pederasts, and they will always try to hide in jobs that give them access to children, and they will always need to be prevented and punished by men of good will.

The problem in the Church was the lack of application of the penal sanctions of canon law after the Council.

This problem also manifests itself in the phenomenon of the pro-abortion "Catholic" politician.

8 posted on 03/26/2010 7:31:05 PM PDT by cmj328 (Got ruthless?)
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To: Cardhu
No wonder they call you their flock - you are delusional sheep.

According to the Jay Study, 67.4% of the abuse was of kids aged 12 and over. 80.9% of victims were male.

The primary problem was pederasty, not pedophilia, yet pedophilia is all the MSM wants to talk about. Most of the sex abuse was perpetrated by gay priests targeting young postpubescent males. The MSM lies about that in order to protect gays. That was, obviously, my point.

If you have a perverse need to warp my criticism of the MSM's lies into an exculpation for the very real Catholic priest pedophiles, I think you should examine your motives for doing so.

And save your anti-Catholic bigotry for a Catholic.

9 posted on 03/26/2010 7:42:02 PM PDT by TChad
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To: Global2010
It is a parade of MSM lies fueled by Anti Catholic/Christ goons on the FR forum and trying to re crucify Christ.

IMO it's no accident this is happening during Lent. I wouldn't be surprised if it was stepped up for Holy Week.

10 posted on 03/26/2010 8:12:39 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: vladimir998

I hate to tell you this, we are as a Church going to have to have more purgation, and exposure and public penance. We are going to have to lie here and get kicked around, I’m afraid. But if we are going to get kicked and bled we can insist on the truth. This will be bad, exceedingly bad…worse even than the horror time a few years ago. But we have to have the whole terrible truth about just how bad it can be before we come to their senses.

Let all of the poisons that lurk in the mud, hatch out.

Brace yourselves, we haven’t seen anything yet. It’s going to get much worse before it gets better. I predicted this a long time ago, when the Da Vinci Code came out, that a worse persecution of the Church is about to begin. I WAS RIGHT!


11 posted on 03/26/2010 8:25:54 PM PDT by Pope Pius XII (There's no such thing as divorce)
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To: Pope Pius XII

You wrote:

“I hate to tell you this, we are as a Church going to have to have more purgation, and exposure and public penance. We are going to have to lie here and get kicked around, I’m afraid. But if we are going to get kicked and bled we can insist on the truth. This will be bad, exceedingly bad…worse even than the horror time a few years ago. But we have to have the whole terrible truth about just how bad it can be before we come to their senses.”

Sorry, but I don’t agree with your assessment. The Church will suffer, yes, but I don’t think it will be as difficult for us as 2002. Quite frankly what is going on in Europe won’t effect Catholics here. Benedict will still be pope, for instance. Also, traditionalists have suffered very little in all these scandals. We’re somewhat isolated because there were fewer ephebophiles hidden in the ranks of our priests.

“Let all of the poisons that lurk in the mud, hatch out.
Brace yourselves, we haven’t seen anything yet. It’s going to get much worse before it gets better. I predicted this a long time ago, when the Da Vinci Code came out, that a worse persecution of the Church is about to begin. I WAS RIGHT!”

I’m not sure. I don’t see this so much as persecution and stupidity - and it’s ineffectual anyway.


12 posted on 03/26/2010 8:46:56 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Lorica
With the passage of soetorocare the leftstream media feels emboldened.
13 posted on 03/26/2010 8:49:39 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: A.A. Cunningham
With the passage of soetorocare the leftstream media feels emboldened.

From an article linked from Drudge:

"He is really accountable to no one, and that is the history," said former priest Richard Sipe, author of the 1990 book, "A Secret World" about the priesthood. "There have been a pope or two who have resigned, several hundred have been murdered, but it's a very stable organization from the top down. What other monarchy do you know that's lasted for 2,000 years?"

15 posted on 03/26/2010 8:59:06 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: Pope Pius XII; vladimir998
"I hate to tell you this, we are as a Church going to have to have more purgation, and exposure and public penance. We are going to have to lie here and get kicked around, I’m afraid. But if we are going to get kicked and bled we can insist on the truth. This will be bad, exceedingly bad…worse even than the horror time a few years ago. But we have to have the whole terrible truth about just how bad it can be before we come to their senses. Let all of the poisons that lurk in the mud, hatch out."

I thought I saw that earlier today:

Link

16 posted on 03/26/2010 9:21:44 PM PDT by monkapotamus
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To: monkapotamus

Huh! Good catch. I wonder if Pope Pius XII is Fr. John Zuhlsdorf. If he isn’t . . .


17 posted on 03/26/2010 9:28:41 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Biggirl
The Pope and the Murphy case: what the New York Times story didn't tell you
18 posted on 03/26/2010 9:47:27 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: vladimir998; Pope Pius XII

PP 12’s FR home page says that he rejects Vatican II, so I very strongly doubt that he’s Fr. Z. :-0


19 posted on 03/26/2010 10:29:43 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Biggirl; Gamecock; wmfights; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; the_conscience; Dutchboy88; RnMomof7; Quix; ...
Still, it is in Germany where Benedict's popularity has taken a real hit.

A poll in Stern magazine released this week shows only 39 percent of Germany's Catholics trust the pope, down from 62 percent in late January. Some 34 percent trust the Catholic church as an institution, down from 56 percent in January. The margin of error was 2.5 percentage points.

And these numbers are only for German CATHOLICS!

So the news these days isn't ALL bad.

20 posted on 03/26/2010 11:15:16 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Biggirl

Wow.. won’t they be surprised when they find out the Pope isn’t working for a legacy... rather, something greater than they will ever understand.


21 posted on 03/26/2010 11:19:04 PM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

LOL

Look at all the denials and distortions being posted in the posts above.

It is truly pathetic.


22 posted on 03/26/2010 11:20:21 PM PDT by Gamecock (If you want Your Best Life Now, follow Osteen. If you want your best life forever, don't. JM)
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To: Gamecock

The truth will prevail. We are not lying.

So happy that you really believe the NYSlimes.


23 posted on 03/26/2010 11:22:51 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Keep acting like nothing happened.

Your tithes are supporting this behavior.


24 posted on 03/26/2010 11:29:01 PM PDT by Gamecock (If you want Your Best Life Now, follow Osteen. If you want your best life forever, don't. JM)
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To: Gamecock
It's the same for Ratzinger's "global authority" encyclical. I expected FR RCs to howl in protest, but all they did was fall in lock step behind it.

Pathetic. "My church, right or wrong."

25 posted on 03/26/2010 11:31:23 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Gamecock

Did you read the article?

I don’t live in Minnesota — the former Archbishop has been removed from office. Money going to that Archdiocese does not support Weakland in any ministry at all. He has been removed from ministry.

If Weakland thought it was so important to come out of retirement and speak about it right now, why or WHY didn’t he do something about Murphy when he was the ARCHBISHOP.

And it would seem that you did not read the part about the benevolence toward a dying priest either. What good would have been served if he had been imprisoned — since Father Murphy was ill and actually in failing health and if I remember died shortly after the judgments about this whole matter.

Why do you think this is being dredged up again?

In my way of thinking, it is being dredged up to discredit the Catholic Church — reason one and only one. Of course, that means also discrediting Pope Benedict.

One has to wonder then, why didn’t this whole matter get pursued while Pope John Paul II was the Pope? Why now?

Is it because Pope Benedict is German? Some people seem to think so.

There is more than meets the eye — like I said, if I didn’t know better, I would think you were a leftist in believing what the NYTimes says versus what the Catholic Church says.

But I know you are not a leftist at all. So do you just hate all Catholics?

If one Catholic priest sins does that make all Catholics bad?

Or conversely, if one Protestant sins, does that make all Protestants bad?


26 posted on 03/26/2010 11:38:22 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Elsewhere,

Some 400 new allegations of clergy sex abuse were reported in the United States in 2009.


27 posted on 03/26/2010 11:45:59 PM PDT by Gamecock (If you want Your Best Life Now, follow Osteen. If you want your best life forever, don't. JM)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Biggirl; Gamecock; wmfights; Forest Keeper; the_conscience; Dutchboy88; RnMomof7; ...
It seems the Pope was more interested in a dying pedophile priest's wish that he remain a priest then the crimes committed. It doesn't even sound as if the priest was sorry, just that he got caught for doing something. And the Pope excuse for allowing the priest to remain a priest? That's “old news”. This “anti-Catholic” and “Oh my, another persecution of the Church article” nonsense is just that-nonsense.

Regardless of how anyone tries to smooth this over, it is reprehensible for the Pope to have been indifferent to the molestation of 200 deaf boys and supportive of a pedophile priest. I wonder how our Catholic friends would react if it were their son and the Pope excused the priest? The priest should have been defrocked and then told to spend his last days repenting. Those 200 family probably left the Church. But that doesn't matter as long as the Church is protected.

We all sin, but when we sin we are to acknowledge our sin-not hide it under a blanket of denials or defend our sin. If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us. If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us. (recommended reading: 1 John)

Strangely, few Catholics seems to be asking the Pope to repent of his wrongful actions. Nor does the Pope say that he made a grievous error. People who defend the Pope's action are simply partakers of the Pope's decision.

Heb 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Something people should give careful attention to.

28 posted on 03/27/2010 1:12:11 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
I wonder how our Catholic friends would react if it were their son and the Pope excused the priest?

I suspect they wouldn't be as cavalier as they are.

29 posted on 03/27/2010 3:21:22 AM PDT by Gamecock (If you want Your Best Life Now, follow Osteen. If you want your best life forever, don't. JM)
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To: Salvation
If one Catholic priest sins does that make all Catholics bad?

Wrong question...No one is suggesting all Catholics are bad...

If numerous priests molest children and the 'organization' hides the fact, covers it up and shuffles the priests around without outing them, is the organization bad??? Emphatically, YES...

How many of these protected, perverted priests become bishops, cardinals and popes???

30 posted on 03/27/2010 4:12:59 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Campion; Pope Pius XII

Interesting. I wonder why he thinks Fr. Z is worthwhile then because he does NOT reject Vatican II?


31 posted on 03/27/2010 5:26:37 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Iscool

You wrote:

“If numerous priests molest children and the ‘organization’ hides the fact, covers it up and shuffles the priests around without outing them, is the organization bad??? Emphatically, YES...”

No. After all the “organization” never did that. Some bishops - only some bishops in the world - did it. The Church never did.


32 posted on 03/27/2010 5:28:07 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Gamecock

You wrote:

“Look at all the denials and distortions being posted in the posts above.”

Okay, name one. Can you? Where in this thread did any Catholic post a denial or distortion?


33 posted on 03/27/2010 5:30:25 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: HarleyD

You wrote:

“Strangely, few Catholics seems to be asking the Pope to repent of his wrongful actions. Nor does the Pope say that he made a grievous error. People who defend the Pope’s action are simply partakers of the Pope’s decision.”

1) What “wrongful actions” did the pope commit that he would know to be a wrongful action?

2) What grievous error did he make that he knew was a grievous error?

Can you answer those questions for me?


34 posted on 03/27/2010 5:33:26 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Salvation
The problem isn't that the NYSlimes is lieing. Heck there should be a college drinking game on what they don't lie about. The problem is that many here on FR assume that any allegations of abuse are false and are only an attack.

We have a plant in Germany, and the news there is much worse than we see here. I suspect it was the same for them when the scandals hit the US. This is coming as quite a shock to many of the southern Germans.

There is something to these reports, and saying it is all the media gunning for the Pope is putting on blinders. Yes they are, but that doesn't mean the reports are all made up.

35 posted on 03/27/2010 5:55:57 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Salvation
If one Catholic priest sins does that make all Catholics bad?

No, it doesn't. We're all sinners, all fallen, but for the grace of God.

The problem is in the secrecy and the sheltering. That gives the appearance of impropriety, at a minimum. At the extreme, it implies complicity for the entire hierarchy.

You're making a huge mistake, with all these "see, other people do it too" efforts at deflection. It's not coming across the way you want, at all.

Or conversely, if one Protestant sins, does that make all Protestants bad?

All Protestants are sinners, too, all fallen and in need of redemption, which comes through repentance and acceptance in faith, of the gift of salvation. Those who fail to show remorse, to turn to God and to repent, and instead continue on in their sin, deflecting blame and denying any need to repent, are invited to leave any Bible-believing Christian church with which I've had the good fortune to associate. It's just common sense. You just don't accept ongoing, unrepentant sin in the congregation. Will people fail on occasion? Of course. I'll take a blubbering Jimmy Swaggart, on his knees and in tears, admitting his failure and sin any day, over arrogant denials and attempts to paint everyone else as being just as sinful in order to protect a particular church.

To make excuses, to revert to a childish "you do it, too, you started it" is not indicative of repentance. To continue to conceal, to have secrets ... well, I assume you know what is written about your secrets finding you out, in all your dark places.

Your church put itself in this position. You can choose to acknowledge the problem and rid yourselves of it, or you can continue to deflect. Both have consequences. It's not as if the problem of widespread homosexuality in your priesthood is a newly discovered phenomenon. It's not as if sexual abuse of pubescent males by these homosexual priests is a newly discovered phenomenon, either.

Deal with it. Cast these priests out of any position of authority, if not from your church as a whole. No good can come of continuing down this path. I realize this advice is coming from outside your church, and therefore you place very little value upon it. But, there it is, the answer that is obvious to those who have no vested interest in the matter.

36 posted on 03/27/2010 6:27:44 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Yawn. Accusing Benedict of “global authority” when you never bother to read the encyclical! Who made you the official interpreter of Catholic teaching? Answer? No one. Now go back and actually learn something about Cathoicism.


37 posted on 03/27/2010 7:11:48 AM PDT by Pope Pius XII (There's no such thing as divorce)
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To: Pope Pius XII

Christianity is under attack, not just the Catholic Church. They hate Christ, therefore they hate His Body, the believers. We are in the final days, so, yes, this will increase, but guess who is victorious in the end????


38 posted on 03/27/2010 7:15:14 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: RegulatorCountry

Cardinal Ratzinger was not implicit in in a deliberate cover up. I agree that those pedophilic priests should have been turned to the police yes. It was common back then to believe that pedophilia could be cured by therapy. Not just in the Catholic Church. Other denominations and I’m sure other religions as well.

It’s hard to make sense of this now, because things are so different and there are rigorous child protection systems in place in churches now. Have you ever wondered why the victims never went to the Police at the time, I’m speculating here but maybe they did go to the police but they didn’t take it seriously and probably said the same thing that the Priest would be cured by therapy and they sent the Priest away.

It was common thought back then. No one knew much about pedophilia. Serious mistakes have been made, but we have no evidence the heirarchy did this with any malice of forethought. They actually thought that therapy helped.

The Vatican is not to blame and neither is the Pope, the archdiocese of the time when this abuse took place is to blame. But the true story, what I’ve just noted, wouldn’t be such an intriguing story for the mainstream media, would it?

I’m fed up with the Catholic Church being targeted while of the rest of Christian denominations, many who have higher rates of abuse than in the Catholic Church, are let of scot free in the media. Regarding abuse in the present, and the past.


39 posted on 03/27/2010 7:17:38 AM PDT by Pope Pius XII (There's no such thing as divorce)
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To: vladimir998

I do not reject Vatican II. Just to be clear with everyone.


40 posted on 03/27/2010 7:18:23 AM PDT by Pope Pius XII (There's no such thing as divorce)
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To: Pope Pius XII

And I’m not Father Z either. Nice try though. ;)


41 posted on 03/27/2010 7:23:46 AM PDT by Pope Pius XII (There's no such thing as divorce)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Biggirl; Gamecock; wmfights; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; the_conscience; Dutchboy88; ...
Some 34 percent trust the Catholic church as an institution, down from 56 percent in January.

Why was it so low in Jan. isn't this a breaking scandal?

42 posted on 03/27/2010 8:03:01 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Global2010; vladimir998
It is a parade of MSM lies fueled by Anti Catholic/Christ goons on the FR forum and trying to re crucify Christ.

Why weren't these criminals turned into the police?

43 posted on 03/27/2010 8:05:45 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Biggirl; Gamecock; wmfights; Forest Keeper; the_conscience; Dutchboy88; ...
The priest should have been defrocked and then told to spend his last days repenting.

From JAIL or PRISON!

We are talking about CRIMES that harm the victim for the rest of their life. The knee jerk defense of their church ignores the one fact that won't go away. Crimes were committed and the perpetrators were not turned over to the authorities.

44 posted on 03/27/2010 8:16:14 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Biggirl
It was wrong, it was sinful, and the Church needs to own up to it. But not just by saying, "we're sorry." The only action that would satisfy me is if homosexual priests were ALL defrocked, and strict exclusion policies were enacted to keep homos about of the priesthood. There are some who say the priesthood has become nothing more than a protected fraternity of homosexuals. Ick. Makes me sick to my stomach to even think about.

"I'm Not Jesus" is a song by the band Apocalyptica - it thematizes sexual abuse through priests. It's from the perspective of a man who was abused by a priest when he was a youth and now confronts his torturer. Great song - a fav on my iPod.

45 posted on 03/27/2010 8:55:40 AM PDT by PLK
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To: wmfights

You wrote:

“Why weren’t these criminals turned into the police?”

Enforcing civil laws is not the role of the Church. Even the civil authorities know this and that’s why not a single bishop has been charged with a crime in that regard in all of those cases. I know there were newspaper stories that said police were notified and chose to do nothing in some cases. Any victim can go to the police.


46 posted on 03/27/2010 9:42:12 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: PLK

You wrote:

“and strict exclusion policies were enacted to keep homos about of the priesthood.”

Already exist. At least since 1962.


47 posted on 03/27/2010 9:44:28 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: redgolum

You wrote:

“This is coming as quite a shock to many of the southern Germans.”

The faith and knowledge of Southern German Catholics stinks these days and has for decades. Anything, whether true or not, damages their faith because it is so weak. Quite frankly in Germany the faith is only cultural. I’ve been there many times and literally know dozens of people there. Almost no one takes the faith seriously. They all say they’re Catholics, but they do not attend Mass, all of them co-habitate before marriage, all of them have kids out of wedlock, think there’s nothing wrong with same sex marriage, pronography, etc. They’re just not Christians in their thoughts, attitudes, actions, beliefs or practices.

What liberal, terribly sinful people who pretend (on occasion) to be Catholics think about the pope simply doesn’t matter. The faith in most of Europe has been dead for decades!

There is something to these reports, and saying it is all the media gunning for the Pope is putting on blinders. Yes they are, but that doesn’t mean the reports are all made up.


48 posted on 03/27/2010 9:52:49 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: vladimir998
Enforcing civil laws is not the role of the Church.

Thanks for being to the point.

The cover up is what makes this worse and it's bad enough to begin with. It really is a big difference between our churches. We call the authorities immediately.

49 posted on 03/27/2010 9:55:32 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: RegulatorCountry

You wrote:

“I’ll take a blubbering Jimmy Swaggart, on his knees and in tears, admitting his failure and sin any day, over arrogant denials and attempts to paint everyone else as being just as sinful in order to protect a particular church.”

Yeah. . . except there’s no reason to believe Jimmy’s blubbering was anything other than a put on job. That’s what the Assembly of God thoght! He was trying desperately to save his “particular church”. He was faking it. That was in 1988. You apparently forgot that he was again caught with a prostitute in 1991. This time - already booted out of his sect by the governing board and on his own - he refused to apologize and said to his congregation, “The Lord told me it’s flat none of your business.” http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,974120,00.html

You apparently have no idea of what you’re talking about.


50 posted on 03/27/2010 10:02:05 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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