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Christian seders draw concern
http://www.ydr.com/living/ci_14741357 ^ | 03/24/2010 | MELISSA NANN BURKE

Posted on 03/29/2010 7:48:52 AM PDT by Between the Lines

At a traditional Passover seder, you'll find the broken matzo, taste the bitter herbs and listen to a retelling of the Exodus story.

You won't hear a mention of Jesus. But some churches -- including an East Manchester Township congregation -- are now hosting Christian seders, adding Christian symbolism to a 3,000-year-old Jewish ritual of remembrance.

At these seders, the stripes and holes in the matzo are said to represent Jesus' whipped and pierced body. The matzo is broken and wrapped in a white cloth, as was Jesus' body for burial.

Some Jews consider such seders to be offensive and a trespassing of sorts. They fear that Christians -- however well-meaning -- are infringing on Jewish liturgical territory.

"It registers as a certain hostile takeover from a Jewish perspective, as well as a betrayal of Jewish history and the Jewish community," said the Rev. Christopher Leighton, executive director of the Institute for Christian and Jewish Studies in Baltimore.

Jews also say churches are using the Christian seder to proselytize among them. They note such seders are often led by Messianic Jews, who believe Jesus was the Messiah, or groups such as Jews for Jesus that work to bring Jews into the Christian church.

Rabbi Jeffrey Astrachan of Temple Beth Israel in York Township pointed out that religions have borrowed and adopted rituals and ideas from one another before; however, they usually incorporate them into the context of their own faith. In this case, the church has borrowed a Jewish ritual and "manipulated" its symbolism without detaching it from Judaism, he said.

"I wouldn't go so far as to say I am offended by the borrowing," Astrachan said by e-mail. "I am, however, disturbed that some fringe groups can't leave others alone to select a faith of their own choosing. If the Messianics want to be true at all to their Jewish roots, they would understand that Jews do not proselytize."

The Rev. Chuck Sprenkle of St. Paul United Methodist Church in East Manchester Township said Jews are invited to his church's Messiah in the Passover seder on Tuesday, but the aim isn't an evangelistic one.

"The purpose is not to convert them -- although that would be a nice thing -- but to show how our faiths do connect," Sprenkle said. "I also think it's a very good opportunity for Christians to deepen the history of their faith. . . . They're seeing the presence of Christ's life in the seder."

Several Christian seders led by Messianic groups are planned at midstate churches this week.

The Rev. Israel Cohen, who will lead the seder demonstration at Sprenkle's church on Tuesday, serves as a missionary for the Messianic organization Chosen People Ministries. His presentation at 100 churches a year explains how each part of the Passover seder "points to the Messiah," he said.

"I'm challenging the churches to be praying for the salvation of the Jewish people and encouraging them to witness to the Jewish people," said Cohen, who lives in Kissimmee, Fla., but has nine seder events in Pennsylvania this week.

Passover, which begins Monday night, commemorates the freedom of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt under the leadership of Moses, who was directed by God.

The Jewish seder (which means "order" in Hebrew) has a set structure, and its symbols (such as the foods on the seder plate) hold great meaning for Jews. For example, the matzo recalls the unleavened bread the Israelites ate in their flight from Egypt. The roasted shank bone is a reminder of the sacrificial lamb offered to God at Passover.

"The story of the Exodus from Egypt is particularly important because that is when the Jewish people became a nation," said Rabbi Elazar Green of the Chabad Jewish Enrichment Center of Lancaster and York. "We're commanded in the Torah to celebrate and retell the story of the Exodus every year."

Sprenkle acknowledged that some Jews might be turned off by the idea of a Christian seder but said it could at least start a conversation about the differences between the faiths.

"In many ways, every religion is offensive to someone else," he said. "That won't stop me from trying to share with them something that they might not have seen before."

For decades, Catholics, Presbyterians and other churches have held seders as a tool of interfaith dialogue.

"Those intentions were noble at first and continue to be if they were inviting a rabbi or other knowledgable Jew to explain a Jewish practice, for example," said Leighton, a Presbyterian minister.

"It becomes an altogether different phenomenon when the purpose is not to understand or appreciate our Jewish neighbors better, but to say 'We really know what's going on in the ritual or practice, and Jews would, too, if they only understood the symbolism is pointing to (Jesus).'"

Astrachan of Temple Beth Israel noted that Passover is a celebration of freedom.

"As Jews the world-over recall the freedoms granted them by God, let us also pray for the freedom to be true to our own religious beliefs, free from the desires and wishes of those who can't seem to leave others alone," he said.

Messianic Jews

Messianic Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and savior of the world.

They are active in groups such as Jews for Jesus and the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, which is headquartered in Springfield, Delaware County, and is a network of synagogues that proclaim faith in Yeshua (Jesus of Nazareth) while maintaining their Jewish identity.

The synagogues are not recognized as Jewish by mainstream Jewish bodies -- many of whom consider Messianic Judaism deceptive and do not want such converts to call themselves Jews.

Messianic Jews generally teach that God is a compound entity that exists in three forms (father, son and Holy Spirit).

They also believe in God's eternal covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and so follow the traditional Jewish calendar and religious observances (as Jesus did).


TOPICS: Current Events; Judaism
KEYWORDS: christianity; judaism; judeochristian; passover
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1 posted on 03/29/2010 7:48:52 AM PDT by Between the Lines
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To: Between the Lines; tx_eggman

I personally see no reason to “update” or change the traditional Jewish seder meal.

After all, Jesus himself had it as his last meal.


2 posted on 03/29/2010 7:51:56 AM PDT by SpinnerWebb (mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves)
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To: SpinnerWebb

Well, Jesus did add a little something to the end of it.


3 posted on 03/29/2010 7:57:03 AM PDT by Between the Lines (AreYouWhoYouSayYouAre?)
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To: SpinnerWebb

He revealed at that last passover that the meal was actually about HIM ...It was a celebration of the passover, and He was the true passover lamb


4 posted on 03/29/2010 7:57:23 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: SpinnerWebb
Jesus himself changed the meaning of the Seder meal. He took the unleavened bread, broke it, and said "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." He took the Passover cup, and said "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

So, if Christ show Christina the meaning behind the meal in regards to the New Covenant, I don't think that it is an issue for Christians to celebrate the Seder in this fashion.

5 posted on 03/29/2010 7:58:11 AM PDT by kosciusko51
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To: RnMomof7

Yep


6 posted on 03/29/2010 7:58:41 AM PDT by svcw (Religion is like giving someone who is dying of thirst mouthwash.)
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To: kosciusko51

Christina = Christian. Sorry, I need another cup of coffee, and the spell check did not catch this. :-O


7 posted on 03/29/2010 7:59:11 AM PDT by kosciusko51
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To: Between the Lines

Our church routinely does a seder dinner. And it was led by our Jewish pastor.


8 posted on 03/29/2010 8:02:53 AM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: Between the Lines

The entire original Jewish Seder has a lot to teach anyone.

Passover is the original Emancipation of man by G-d.

I believe it is the first event and G-dly directive that governments may not enslave mankind, that we are obligated to resist enslavement, that the natural G-d given right is to be free.

Christians would do well to merely repeat perfectly the story of Exodus, and join Jews in celebrating G-d’s gift of freedom from oppression.

Jesus need not be involved. He wasn’t around yet.


9 posted on 03/29/2010 8:04:25 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (REPEAL 0BAMACARE NOW!)
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To: Between the Lines

If they are so against the Christian seder, why don’t they invite Christians to a traditional seder?


10 posted on 03/29/2010 8:09:28 AM PDT by Flying right
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To: Uncle Miltie
Jesus need not be involved. He wasn’t around yet.

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM".

11 posted on 03/29/2010 8:12:14 AM PDT by kosciusko51
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To: Uncle Miltie

Agreed. I attended a Jewish Seder last year and didn’t find anything that ‘offended’ my Catholic faith.


12 posted on 03/29/2010 8:13:34 AM PDT by posterchild (Endowed by my Creator with certain unalienable rights.)
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To: Between the Lines

Why would any Jews be outraged by Christian seders?

Maybe it’ll embarrass my liberal Obama loving compatriots to actually finish the second half


13 posted on 03/29/2010 8:13:57 AM PDT by hecht (NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM)
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To: SpinnerWebb

I have celebrated seder for a few years now.....

I HIGHLY recommend anyone having the chance to experience a seder to do so...

it is a profound and moving experience, let alone the knowledge and history....

I better understand the how precious it is to be adopted or grafted into God’s family through Jesus...

I have a richer and deeper appreciation for the Jewish people and their faith....

Their history is MY Family history....

Thank you Jesus for your great sacrifice....


14 posted on 03/29/2010 8:15:53 AM PDT by eeevil conservative (GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH....Archimedes)
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To: Between the Lines
Goodness, I hope this doesn't turn into a Hot Squeekin FReepin Religious Controversy ThreadTM.

I hate it when that happens.

To my Jewish friends I say: Have a Good Passover.

15 posted on 03/29/2010 8:24:29 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Sorry: Tag-line presently at the dry cleaners. Please find suitable bumper-sticker instead.)
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To: SpinnerWebb; Between the Lines
I personally see no reason to “update” or change the traditional Jewish seder meal.

After all, Jesus himself had it as his last meal.

There is an empty place set with a glass of wine at Hebrerw Seder meals. It is reserved for Elijah ... who traditions says will come to usher in the messianic age.

When the NT says:

Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

he took THE cup.

16 posted on 03/29/2010 8:26:00 AM PDT by tx_eggman (Liberalism is only possible in that moment when a man chooses Barabas over Christ.)
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To: Between the Lines
"I wouldn't go so far as to say I am offended by the borrowing," Astrachan said by e-mail. "I am, however, disturbed that some fringe groups can't leave others alone to select a faith of their own choosing.

So why doesn't he? Leave these supposed "fringe groups" alone, that is.

17 posted on 03/29/2010 8:27:23 AM PDT by MissNomer
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Goodness, I hope this doesn't turn into a Hot Squeekin FReepin Religious Controversy ThreadTM.

It was not my intention to post something to create contention. I had never heard before that Jews dissaproved of this sort of thing. Although the article seems to imply that they are more upset with the Messianics than with the Christians.

18 posted on 03/29/2010 8:28:41 AM PDT by Between the Lines (AreYouWhoYouSayYouAre?)
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To: Uncle Miltie
"Jesus need not be involved. He wasn’t around yet."

He most certainly was. Christ was around in the first sentence of Genesis which talks about him creating the world. The whole point of the Exodus was to foreshadow Christ's future deliverance of his people from the slavery of sin and reunification of them with the father. Every event and ritual in the Torah is all about Christ.

19 posted on 03/29/2010 8:29:28 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: RnMomof7

Yes, behold the LAMB OF GOD.

Catholics call this “Christian seder” the Eucharist, the body of Christ, celebrated at every Mass.

So if this practice among some Christians is offensive to the Jewish people, are they offended by our Mass as well?


20 posted on 03/29/2010 8:30:09 AM PDT by SaintDismas
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To: kosciusko51

Amen & Amen


21 posted on 03/29/2010 8:48:18 AM PDT by STD (Sorry Islam-Obama's Mounted the Red Horse Now)
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To: Flying right
If they are so against the Christian seder, why don’t they invite Christians to a traditional seder?

Christians are frequently invited to traditional seders, (some were at my home) and some Christian churches hold traditional seders where a rabbi is invited to explain the traditions. Anyone could hold a traditional seder if they wanted. The question here isn't the lack of traditional seders open to Chrisitians, it's that group of Christians who want to make the traditions of the seder mean something completely different.

22 posted on 03/29/2010 8:54:13 AM PDT by sometime lurker
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To: Between the Lines

” adding Christian symbolism to a 3,000-year-old Jewish ritual of remembrance.”

Every time a (knowing) Christian partakes of the Lord’s Supper, he is re-inacting a Seder 1986 years ago (more or less).

Whether the Christian knows it or not.

Altering the Seder is silly, though.

Christ didn’t say “do something similar to this” in rememberance of me. He said “do this in remembrance of me.”


23 posted on 03/29/2010 8:58:20 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (Nothing to see here. Move along.)
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To: Between the Lines
I had never heard before that Jews dissaproved of this sort of thing. Although the article seems to imply that they are more upset with the Messianics than with the Christians.

I can't imagine any Jew upset that a Christian wanted to attend a seder or have their own. I welcome it, and know many other Jews that feel the same.

The issue comes in with the group of Messianics that is trying to make the traditions of the seder mean something else. We have been told every year for centuries what the matzoh means; I'm not happy to hear a Messianic group proclaiming that they know what Jewish traditions mean better than centuries of Jews do.

24 posted on 03/29/2010 8:59:42 AM PDT by sometime lurker
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To: Uncle Miltie
Christians would do well to merely repeat perfectly the story of Exodus, and join Jews in celebrating G-d’s gift of freedom from oppression.

Jesus need not be involved. He wasn’t around yet.

I respectfully disagree. While the original Exodus was an amazing demonstration of God's power and love for His people in its own right, in the larger context, it was actually a foreshadowing of Christ, who would free not just the Jews but all people who believe from the bondage of sin and lead them into the Promised Land of eternal life. This was accomplished by Christ becoming the Lamb of God, sacrificed to take away the sins of the world. All of the elements of the Seder point to Christ, and I see no problem with Christians pointing out the symbology that pointed to Christ thousands of years before His birth.

25 posted on 03/29/2010 9:01:01 AM PDT by CA Conservative
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To: Uncle Miltie; Between the Lines
The entire original Jewish Seder has a lot to teach anyone. Passover is the original Emancipation of man by G-d.
...........
Jesus need not be involved. He wasn’t around yet.

I guess your Jesus is not G-d.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
26 posted on 03/29/2010 9:07:54 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Between the Lines

The Jews are our beloved elder brethren, and the Seder is appropriate for us as well.


27 posted on 03/29/2010 9:10:24 AM PDT by JimRed (To water the Tree of Liberty is to excise a cancer before it kills us. TERM LIMITS, NOW AND FOREVER!)
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To: Between the Lines
At these seders, the stripes and holes in the matzo are said to represent Jesus' whipped and pierced body. The matzo is broken and wrapped in a white cloth, as was Jesus' body for burial. Some Jews consider such seders to be offensive and a trespassing of sorts. They fear that Christians -- however well-meaning -- are infringing on Jewish liturgical territory.

Anyone who can't see the seeds of the death and resurrection of Christ in the traditional seder elements doesn't know enough about Christian theology to really comment on it.

As with far more of the Jewish observances than most Jews (or Christians) even realize, the ancient observance is also preparation for the acceptance of the Messiah.

28 posted on 03/29/2010 9:11:52 AM PDT by kevkrom (De-fund Obamacare in 2011, repeal in 2013!)
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To: sometime lurker
After participating in a Seder, I can't help but notice the incredible symbolism of Christ in the passover. Is it coincidence? I have heard many testimonies of Messianic Jews, the passage they can't get past in Isaiah 53.
29 posted on 03/29/2010 9:20:50 AM PDT by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

“Those intentions were noble at first and continue to be if they were inviting a rabbi or other knowledgable Jew to explain a Jewish practice, for example,” said Leighton, a Presbyterian minister.

“It becomes an altogether different phenomenon when the purpose is not to understand or appreciate our Jewish neighbors better, but to say ‘We really know what’s going on in the ritual or practice, and Jews would, too, if they only understood the symbolism is pointing to (Jesus).’”

******************************

We had a Messianic Jew come to our church to give a short series of talks about the Seder. And how the various rituals point not only back to their freedom under Moses, but also points forward to freedom in Jesus. I wonder how this pastor would have felt about a Messianic Jew doing a Seder?

I have done a couple of Seders (well, as a Christian - so I suppose we got many things wrong!) and they were very moving.


30 posted on 03/29/2010 9:23:41 AM PDT by 21twelve (Having the Democrats in control is like a never-ending game of Calvin ball. (Giotto))
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To: Between the Lines

And how about a Muslim seder in the White House?


31 posted on 03/29/2010 9:25:06 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: sometime lurker
SL, I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and imagine how I would react if somebody were latching onto Catholic sacraments and trying to make them "mean something else."

I can see how there would be strong feelings about this; and the only way to counter it would be --- it seems to me --- strengthening the traditional meaning and reinforcing it constantly within your own community.

It seems to me, though, that ALL of Christianity is a reformulation of, or a competing interpretation of, Judaism. It would be hard to find an element that isn't. I was certainly taught (and rightly, I think) to "interpret" the whole body of Hebrew Scriptures "in the light of Christ."

Moreover, much of Protestantism is, it seems to me, a latching onto Catholic things to make them "mean something else." Again, this is so pervasive that to catalogue it adequately would take hundreds of pages.

There's no stopping it, and no use taking offense. The only response is in constantly reinforcing your own defining lines, in higher contrast.

32 posted on 03/29/2010 9:58:43 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (To the hard of hearing you shout, and for the blind you draw large and startling figures. F O'Connor)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html


33 posted on 03/29/2010 10:10:37 AM PDT by yehudis
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To: hecht

Quote: Why would any Jews be outraged by Christian seders?

Maybe it’ll embarrass my liberal Obama loving compatriots to actually finish the second half

And you wonder why Jews are weary/not-trusting of Christians....geez


34 posted on 03/29/2010 10:21:07 AM PDT by papabrody (HaShem reigns forever,,......,Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
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To: yehudis

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/biblical.html

Happy Pesach to all my JEWISH brothers and sisters!

Yasher Koach!


35 posted on 03/29/2010 10:21:13 AM PDT by yehudis
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To: sometime lurker
Thank you for your reply.

The issue comes in with the group of Messianics that is trying to make the traditions of the seder mean something else. We have been told every year for centuries what the matzoh means; I'm not happy to hear a Messianic group proclaiming that they know what Jewish traditions mean better than centuries of Jews do.

Our church does a Seder led by a Messianic group every year. Let me assure you that the Messianics are not changing the meaning of the Seder. What they do is give a short class before the Seder on how the passover meal points to Christ. After that they do the Seder exactly as the Jews do without anything added or any mention of Jesus what so ever. (All of these Seders may not follow this format, but the ones I have attended do.)

Christians and Messianics have always looked at the old testament, the Seder, the Jewish wedding ceremonies and other Jewish traditions in the context of how they all point to Christ. Being Christians it is impossible for us to see it any other way. We believe that the Jews are God's chosen people and if our faith is to have any legitimacy at all it must therefore be irrevocably tied to that of the Jews. And if Jesus is both man and God then everything must point to Him.

36 posted on 03/29/2010 10:40:41 AM PDT by Between the Lines (AreYouWhoYouSayYouAre?)
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To: papabrody

I don’t understand your post.
There are several parts to the seder i.e kadesh, orhatz, karpas ,yachatz, maggid etc.
most non-Orthodox Jews stop after the meal and skip the second half. I wondered if people and Christian seders do the whole thing.
anyway a ziesen pesach


37 posted on 03/29/2010 10:53:56 AM PDT by hecht (NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM)
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To: yehudis
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָד A Pesach song for you: http://www.jewtube.com/video/1998/MOSES-RAP--A-PESACH--PASSOVER-MUSIC-VIDEO
38 posted on 03/29/2010 10:59:34 AM PDT by papabrody (HaShem reigns forever,,......,Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
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To: hecht

BTW,fwiw my original comment was akin to the theme of Yonah


39 posted on 03/29/2010 11:20:13 AM PDT by hecht (NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM)
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To: 21twelve
Many believe in the Word of G-d
Where Yah'shua commanded us to re-celebrate YHvH's commanded Pesach.
Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread
and given thanks,
He broke it and gave it to them, saying,
"This is My body which is given for you;
do this in remembrance of Me."
The YHvH commanded Pesach Seder which Yah'shua re-commanded
was rejected and condemned by the Council of Nicea.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

40 posted on 03/29/2010 11:39:51 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

Tinitarianism belongs at a Jewish seder as much as punk/hip hop gospel belongs at a communion service. :-)


41 posted on 03/29/2010 3:08:56 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Tinitarianism belongs at a Jewish seder as much as punk/hip hop gospel belongs at a communion service. :-)

Yes; Yah'shua said :
29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is,
'HEAR, O ISRAEL! YHvH OUR Elohim IS ONE YHvH;
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
42 posted on 03/29/2010 3:16:13 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

As a Christian I starting attending Seders about 10 years ago and now wouldn’t do a Holy Week without one. The experience is powerful not to mention the horseradish. ;-)


43 posted on 03/29/2010 3:18:29 PM PDT by bjorn14 (Woe to those who call good evil and evil good. Isaiah 5:20)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

Good. Glad he understands better than most on this thread.
Although I reserve the right to take a statue of Buddah to your next communion service. :-)


44 posted on 03/29/2010 3:19:14 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Dear Brother:
Have a Blessed and joyful Pesach beginning tonight.

baruch HaShem

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

45 posted on 03/29/2010 3:24:07 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

thank you sir. and a happy easter to you. :-)


46 posted on 03/29/2010 3:24:40 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
thank you sir. and a happy easter to you. :-)

I rejected easter over ten years ago
after reading the commands promulgated from Nicea by Constantine.

OBTW are you aware the the Sanhedrin
is planning a Korban Pesach tonight in Jericho.

First time in 1940 years; since 70CE

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
47 posted on 03/29/2010 3:32:10 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
I rejected easter over ten years ago after reading the commands promulgated from Nicea by Constantine.

Oh that's right. Sorry. Been awhile.

OBTW are you aware the the Sanhedrin is planning a Korban Pesach tonight in Jericho. First time in 1940 years; since 70CE

No I was not. Thanx.

48 posted on 03/29/2010 3:34:57 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
U-2012>OBTW are you aware the the Sanhedrin is planning a Korban Pesach tonight in Jericho. First time in 1940 years; since 70CE

No I was not. Thanx.

see link
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
49 posted on 03/29/2010 3:48:42 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Between the Lines; P-Marlowe
The Rev. Chuck Sprenkle of St. Paul United Methodist Church in East Manchester Township said Jews are invited to his church's Messiah in the Passover seder on Tuesday, but the aim isn't an evangelistic one. "The purpose is not to convert them -- although that would be a nice thing

The purpose is not to convert, but that would be nice???

Pure spin, Chuck. You either think they need converting or you think they don't. We Methodist pastors are so wishy-washy, Chuck, and it doesn't make us look good.

50 posted on 03/29/2010 6:01:14 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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