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Pope Benedict to deliver 'intense' message during Fatima visit
EWTN News ^ | 5/5/2010

Posted on 05/05/2010 10:48:55 AM PDT by markomalley

"Fatima is a particularly significant place for this Pope," said Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi on Tuesday, noting that it was also a destination for two former Popes. The Holy Father has a thorough knowledge of the history of the Marian sanctuary, he added.

Fr. Lombardi held a press conference at the Vatican to prepare the media for the Pope's next trip out of the Vatican. He will be visiting Portugal from May 11-14.

The spokesman referred to the Pope's stop in Fatima on May 13 as the highlight and "heart" of the upcoming four-day trip to Portugal, according to Vatican Radio. But, he pointed out, Benedict XVI will not be the first Pope to visit the Marian shrine.

Two other Pontiffs have been to Fatima. In 1967, the sanctuary hosted Paul VI, and John Paul II visited in 1982, 1991 and 2000, at which time the visionaries Jacinta and Francesco were beatified.

The Portuguese shrine is not unfamiliar to Pope Benedict, since as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger extensively studied the message of Fatima. Fr. Lombardi said on Tuesday that the Pope has been involved with history of the Marian sanctuary in a "very deep, personal way."

It was him, for example, who was called upon to give a theological perspective when the third secret of Fatima was made public in 2000.

The Vatican spokesman said that the Holy Father will also deliver an intense message during his Fatima visit. Upon his arrival at the sanctuary on May 12, he will remember John Paul II and the 29th anniversary of the assassination attempt that nearly took his life on May 13, 1981.

This visit marks the Holy Father's 15th Apostolic Journey abroad in his five years and is his first to Portugal as Pope.

During today's general audience, the Holy Father greeted the people of Portugal in their language, telling them that he will be there this coming weekend at the invitation of the president of the nation and the episcopal conference.

He said he was "happy to be able to visit the 'land of Holy Mary'" on the 10th anniversary of the beatification of the shepherd children.

According to Portuguese press reports, local police are planning for a cumulative total of 450,000 people at the celebrations in Lisbon, Fatima and Portugal during the four-day visit.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; History; Islam
KEYWORDS: catholic; fatima; islam
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1 posted on 05/05/2010 10:48:55 AM PDT by markomalley
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To: markomalley

When I was a child there was supposedly a three-part message delivered at one of the Marian shrines. I should remember which one but I don’t. One part of the message was that a person born in 1960 would bring peace to the Middle East. That person would be 50 now. Does anyone else remember this prophetic message?


2 posted on 05/05/2010 11:06:41 AM PDT by Inwoodian
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To: Inwoodian
When I was a child there was supposedly a three-part message delivered at one of the Marian shrines

It was Fatima

You can take a look at all three parts here.

3 posted on 05/05/2010 11:08:52 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley; RnMomof7; the_conscience; Quix; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; wmfights; 1000 silverlings; ...
Can't wait to hear this one.

Wonder if this "message" will be as "intense" as Ratzinger's "global authority" message.

4 posted on 05/05/2010 3:42:44 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: markomalley

Since the death of Pius XII, the hierarchy in the Vatican have not been reliable sources for information on the messages of Fatima. John XXIII did not reveal the 3rd secret in 1960 as was requested of him by the Blessed Mother, and every since then it’s more of the same from the Vatican.

For anyone that wants to know about Fatima, should read the 3 volume set by Frere Michel De La Sainte Trinite:

The Whole Truth About Fatima: Volume I Science and the Facts

The Whole Truth about Fatima, Volume II: The Secret and the Church

The Whole Truth about Fatima: Volume III: The Third Secret


5 posted on 05/05/2010 3:50:51 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Inwoodian
Top Ten Scientific Explantions of Miracle of Sun at Fatima (Catholic Caucus)

Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part II
Fatima and Akita
Fatima and the Theology of the Body: Part I
The Story of Fatima -- Part 2
The Story of Faitma -- Part 1
Our Lady of Fatima, May 13
Litany of Our Lady of Fatima
Last Fatima child buried in final resting place (Sr. Maria's remains transferred to Fatima)
Sister Lucia, last remaining witness of Fatima apparitions, dies at 97
SISTER LUCIA RIP

LAST OF CHILDREN WHO CLAIMED TO SEE VIRGIN MARY DIES AT 97
Last child who claimed to see "Virgin Mary" dies
Virgin Mary Child Dies (Lucia of Fatima)
Mourning for Fatima seer (Portugal declares day of mourning)
Third Secret of Fatima is not fully revealed.
Sister Lucia, last remaining witness of Fatima apparitions, dies at 97
Sr. Lucia, Fatima, and Islam
Mystery Fatima: Death of Lucia Accents Famed Secrets & Area's Hidden History
"No More Secrets," Visionary Said in 2001 (Sr. Lucia Confirmed Russia Consecrated to Mary)
Papal praise at Sister Lucia's funeral

Our Lady of Fatima, ‘counterrevolutionary’ and ‘ecumenical’
Fatima Statue Due at Vatican to Mark a Fateful Day 25 Years After Attempt on John Paul II's Life
Sister Lucia's Unpublished Writings Released - Visionary Reflects on Marian Apparitions
Sister Lucia's Last Moments
Fatima: Case Closed
Rosary Rallies Planned for Fatima Anniversary [Catholic Caucus]
Giant new church at Fatima shrine
Sister Lucia's Beatification Process to Begin ( Pope Waves 5-Year Waiting Period)
The faithful remember miracle of Fatima, Thousands gather in Washington Twp. on 90th anniversary
Pius XII Saw "Miracle of the Sun" [Catholic Caucus]

6 posted on 05/05/2010 3:52:51 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
On an highly emotional spiritual level there has been a great common-ground meeting place between Rome and Mecca in the town of Fatima in Portugal. To quote a Catholic news organization, "Our Lady of Fatima is really Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Mohammed." On October 23, 1995, Iranian television began running stories that the apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 were religious phenomena of Muslim origin....

....According to Iranian Television, the woman who appeared to the three shepherd children in 1917 was not the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, but Fatima, the daughter of the prophet Mohammed, founder of Islam. Her message was reported to be "I am Fatima, daughter of the Prophet of Islam." This television report has helped launch the growing waves of Muslim pilgrims who have been visiting this Christian site in Portugal in recent years.

Catholics, on the other hand, say that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to the three shepherd children. She told them to pray, especially encouraging the prayer of the Rosary. Lucía, the only surviving recipient of the vision, was entrusted with three "secrets," of which the third has never been made public. She recently assured that the third secret was never intended for general proclamation. Pope John Paul II has had a strong devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, especially since the failed assassination attempt of Ali Agca, which occurred precisely on May 13, 1991, the anniversary of the first vision at Fatima (May 13, 1917).
-- From the thread The Papacy and Islam

This brings us to our second point: namely, why the Blessed Mother, in the 20th century should have revealed herself in the significant little village of Fatima, so that to all future generations she would be known as "Our Lady of Fatima." Since nothing ever happens out of Heaven except with a finesse of all details, I believe that the Blessed Virgin chose to be known as "Our Lady of Fatima" as a pledge and a sign of hope to the Moslem people, and as an assurance that they, who show her so much respect, will one day accept her divine Son too.

Evidence to support these views is found in the historical fact that the Moslems occupied Portugal for centuries. At the time when they were finally driven out, the last Moslem chief had a beautiful daughter by the name of Fatima. A Catholic boy fell in love with her, and for him she not only stayed behind when the Moslems left, but even embraced the Faith. The young husband was so much in love with her that he changed the name of the town where he lived to Fatima. Thus, the very place where our Lady appeared in 1917 bears a historical connection to Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed.
-- Archbishop Fulton Sheen, in the book The World's First Love

On the Lady of Fatima:
Our Lady of Fatima in the Light of History
The Papacy and Islam
Mary And The Moslems(The Virgin Mother Mary & Islam)
Area Catholics to celebrate 90th anniversary of Fatima
New movie about Our Lady of Fatima to be screened in major U.S. cities
Fatima: The new Movie… Deception a-go-go [the Fatima apparitions were really UFO manifestations]
On Catholics joining hands with Muslims:
Malaysia Catholics oppose non-'Allah' Bible
Catholic church in Cologne collects money for a mosque
A Catholic Church (in Venice Italy) Turns Into A Mosque (each Friday)
Muslims seek crisis management plan with Vatican
Pope meets with Muslim scholars, urges better ties
Vatican, Muslims prepare historic meeting with Pope
Muslim-Catholic pact to foster respect
Pope offers 'working meeting' with Muslims
Why Benedict XVI Is So Cautious with the Letter of the 138 Muslims
Muslims and Catholics release mission statement
Muslims, Catholics find common ground
Muslims Get "Prayer Room" at Catholic University
New York Catholics visit mosque, learn about Islam
Catholics Ponder Muslim Coexistence
Pope Invites Muslims to Dialogue, Slams "Holy Wars"(Hooray for the Pope!)

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

7 posted on 05/05/2010 4:08:08 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Pretentiousness is so beneath me.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Evidently you are not aware of how praying the Rosary kept the Muslims out of Europe.

Please do not persisit in your bashing of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

How Europe Escaped Speaking Arabic
The Battle of Lepanto
Civilization in the Balance: The Battle of Lepanto and Election ‘08

LEPANTO
A Call To Prayer: This Lepanto Moment [Repost]
Lepanto, 1571: The Battle That Saved Europe
Celebrating the Battle of Lepanto
Clash of civilizations: Battle of Lepanto revisited

Lepanto, Bertone e Battesimo, Oh My!
Lepanto Sunday
Our Lady of the Rosary of La Naval (A Mini-Lepanto in the Philippines)
Swiss Guards at the Battle of Lepanto, 7 October 1571
Battle of Lepanto

LEPANTO, 7 OCTOBER 1571: The Defense of Europe
Battle of Lepanto
Remember Lepanto!
The Battle of Lepanto
On This Day In History, The Battle of Lepanto
The Battle of Lepanto

Chesterton's Lepanto
The Miracle At Lepanto...
Lepanto
The Naval Battle of Lepanto
The Battle of Lepanto

8 posted on 05/05/2010 4:17:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Alex Murphy

It’s my understanding that the muslim god (Allah) is not merciful.


9 posted on 05/05/2010 4:27:45 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Many people think that the God of the Old Testament was not merciful, yet his wrath was turned by through the pleading of prophets.

Most Christians look upon Christ as being more merciful that God the Father, since Christ died for our sins — total unconditional love for the Father and for us.

But I tend to think that the real joy comes through God the Holy Spirit.


10 posted on 05/05/2010 4:38:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Alex Murphy
Not this nonsense again.

To quote a Catholic news organization, "Our Lady of Fatima is really Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Mohammed."

What "Catholic news organization" said this, where, and when?

According to Iranian Television, the woman who appeared to the three shepherd children in 1917 was not the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, but Fatima, the daughter of the prophet Mohammed, founder of Islam. Her message was reported to be "I am Fatima, daughter of the Prophet of Islam."

Iranian television is your "Catholic news organization"??

Iranian television could announce that George Washington was a space alien from the planet Zeta Tauri 4, but that wouldn't make it true, would it?

Come on, Sr. Lucia -- the leader of those "three shepherd children" -- died only a couple of years ago. She was crystal clear about whom she saw and what it meant, and the daughter of Mohammed was not mentioned AT ALL.

I believe that the Blessed Virgin chose to be known as "Our Lady of Fatima" as a pledge and a sign of hope to the Moslem people, and as an assurance that they, who show her so much respect, will one day accept her divine Son too.

Wow, so Fatima, Mohammed's daughter, had a "divine Son"?

I don't think so.

And what would "accepting Mary's divine Son" make Muslims?

I'll take "Christians" for 400, Alex.

11 posted on 05/05/2010 4:53:36 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: markomalley

Thank you for that most informative link.


12 posted on 05/05/2010 4:58:43 PM PDT by cmj328 (Got ruthless?)
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To: Salvation

Even though some people might think that about God’s actions in the OT, I don’t think that the muslims even try to portray their god as merciful.

I have found that the people who like to portray God in the OT as bad as Allah, generally have a bone to pick with God anyway, and it seems like they use that as an excuse to reject Him and justify it.


13 posted on 05/05/2010 5:08:32 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: markomalley

5 May 2010

About the Holy Father’s upcoming visit to Fatima

CATEGORY: SESSIUNCULA — Fr. John Zuhlsdorf @ 5:04 pm

I have interested in the Fatima apparitions for quite some time… in particular in the controversy concerning the "Third Secret" given by Our Lady to Sr. Lucia.

FatimaFor some background on the controversy you might check out Antonio Socci’s book, translated now into English.  Marco Tossati also has a good book in Italian.

This is from CNA:

Pope Benedict to deliver ‘intense’ message during Fatima visit

Vatican City, May 5, 2010 / 12:20 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- "Fatima is a particularly significant place for this Pope," said Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi on Tuesday, noting that it was also a destination for two former Popes. The Holy Father has a thorough knowledge of the history of the Marian sanctuary, he added. [And the Holy Father has known the content of the "Third Secret" for a very long time.]

Fr. Lombardi held a press conference at the Vatican to prepare the media for the Pope’s next trip out of the Vatican. He will be visiting Portugal from May 11-14.

The spokesman referred to the Pope’s stop in Fatima on May 13 as the highlight and "heart" of the upcoming four-day trip to Portugal, according to Vatican Radio. But, he pointed out, Benedict XVI will not be the first Pope to visit the Marian shrine.  [The things he tells us!]

Two other Pontiffs have been to Fatima. In 1967, the sanctuary hosted Paul VI, and John Paul II visited in 1982, 1991 and 2000, at which time the visionaries Jacinta and Francesco were beatified.

The Portuguese shrine is not unfamiliar to Pope Benedict, since as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger extensively studied the message of Fatima. Fr. Lombardi said on Tuesday that the Pope has been involved with history of the Marian sanctuary in a "very deep, personal way."

It was him, for example, who was called upon to give a theological perspective when the third secret of Fatima was made public in 2000[Or… at the least… part of the Third Secret!]

[NB:] The Vatican spokesman said that the Holy Father will also deliver an intense message ["an intense message"] during his Fatima visit. Upon his arrival at the sanctuary on May 12, he will remember John Paul II and the 29th anniversary of the assassination attempt that nearly took his life on May 13, 1981.

[...]

 

Fr. Lombadi has certainly put an edge to my interest by this whetting.  

In the meantime, I would love someday to see an image of Our Lady of Fatima that doesn’t involve pastels.

• • • • • •

14 posted on 05/05/2010 5:36:01 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
“As for the Secret, well I happen to be one of those individuals who thinks we didn’t get the whole thing.”

—Mother Angelica, on her live television show May 16, 2001

15 posted on 05/05/2010 5:36:57 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: metmom
Scott Hahn tells a story about how he was debating a Muslim. Hahn kept referring to "God the Father," and the Muslim got more and more agitated. Finally the Muslim said, "Allah is not 'Father'. Allah is Master!"
16 posted on 05/05/2010 5:41:01 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

bttt


17 posted on 05/05/2010 5:49:26 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Campion
Finally the Muslim said, "Allah is not 'Father'. Allah is Master!"

And that is their understanding of God. Very similar to a couple of innovations of Christianity who were influenced strongly by Islam. A view of God as a wrathful, sullen omnipotent tyrant, interspersed with occasional bouts of undeserved generosity and favour. A God of fear and retribution. Whereas Christians look to:

John 13: 34 I give you a new commandment: 12 love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. 35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

For the Muslims, their god is NOT the Father; he is a whimsical tyrant destroyer. Kinda reminds me of the gist of the beliefs of some who debate us.

18 posted on 05/05/2010 6:12:40 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: markomalley

In my opinion, it was a big mistake to make this an open thrad.


19 posted on 05/05/2010 6:15:17 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

And a wonderful, blessed evening to you Doctor.

May God’s richest blessings come upon you this evening.


20 posted on 05/05/2010 6:15:58 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: cmj328
Thank you for that most informative link.

You are most welcome.

21 posted on 05/05/2010 6:16:44 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Judith Anne
In my opinion, it was a big mistake to make this an open thrad.

Why? Just ignore the mockers.

22 posted on 05/05/2010 6:18:37 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Campion

Kind of puts a damper on the *It’s all different names for the same god* nonsense, doesn’t it?


23 posted on 05/05/2010 6:30:33 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; ...

It sounds like . . .

the whole Fatima hoax will be strengthened . . . thereby strengthening the the whole goddess element of the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage that was embellished so extensively at Fatima during a very standard dramatic version of a certain type of UFO manifestation.

Of course, folks focusing on the caricatured Mary and all the fantasies, dogma, mythology surrounding the pseudo-Mary personage are easy prey for such hoaxes—particularly with all the UFO technologies and their sound, light, mass hypnosis etc. techniques.

The “dancing sun” aspect was clearly a common larger [medium in some respects] UFO craft blotting out the sun and performing other typical maneuvers in the incident.


24 posted on 05/05/2010 8:28:54 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Leoni

I never have believed the Vatican’s official bit about the 3rd message.

And, all the messages sound to me like they are quite geared to intensifying respect for, adoration of, submission to the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage the Vatican has elevated into sharing the “hypostatic union” with The Trinity.

Quite a clever thing hatched in the pit.


25 posted on 05/05/2010 8:32:03 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: metmom

ISLAM UNVEILED is an excellent book.

ANGER is obligatory at the least insult or offense—otherwise one is considered a wimp, a nothing.

Retaliation and vengeance, the same thing.


26 posted on 05/05/2010 8:33:42 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

I think that’s going to be next on my reading list.

My sister was in the Air Force at the time when GW went after Saddam. While he was getting shredded for going after him because it would be perceived as making the US look weak cause he had to finish up what his father didn’t do, a friend of hers who was more familiar with muslim culture said that they wouldn’t see it that way.

In muslim culture, that kind of behavior is EXPECTED. If someone offends your family, you are expected to take revenge, even if it’s another generation. So in muslim eyes, he actually EARNED respect, because he was doing what they thought should be done, protecting family honor.

No, not the same god at all.


27 posted on 05/05/2010 8:40:05 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Just as you can’t throw all Protestants into one pot and make a general statement or all Catholics into one pot and make a general statement, I guess I disagree with your statement about all Muslims being evil. They aren’t. Many are peaceful and law-abiding.

I’m not a Muslim lover, because the jihadism that has occurred within their religion drives me nuts. I guess it’s the generalities that I sensed in your statements.


28 posted on 05/05/2010 9:11:14 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I didn’t say I thought all msulims are evil. Where’d you read that?


29 posted on 05/05/2010 9:15:19 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Salvation

Oops, typed too fast.....

msulims = muslims


30 posted on 05/05/2010 9:16:04 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Judith Anne; markomalley

I do agree.


31 posted on 05/05/2010 9:37:43 PM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: Quix
I never have believed the Vatican’s official bit about the 3rd message.

Born and raised Catholic, (not so much anymore), I never did buy the church's reasoning of not revealing the third secret when told to do so. If the pope, at that time, really believed that it was the virgin, who was he or any mortal for that matter not to follow her orders to the letter.
Something happened I have no doubt, but what really happened is the question.

32 posted on 05/05/2010 10:01:53 PM PDT by The Cajun (Mind numbed robot , ditto-head, Hannitized, Levinite)
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To: markomalley

Thank you, Mark.


33 posted on 05/05/2010 10:09:08 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: The Cajun

Yeah, I’ve always thought that, about that issue, too.

There’s been plenty of incongruencies along the way, as well as in the series of incidents originating the whole thing.

RC’s persistently challenge me with . . . how could satan cause a personage to advocate such ‘righteous’ things.

I’m not sure how righteous those exhortations were if they were not originating from Christ, Himself.

They just ended up causing millions of people to attach themselves all the more firmly to Mary vs to Christ.

And, there are vague to not so vague globalist implications in the messages, to begin with.

To me, the biggest import, is that it sets Mary up quite well to be presented yet again via the same critters and technologies . . . as a kind of Pied Piper to millions of RC’s at some critical END TIMES era point . . . leading the undiscerning down the yellow brick road to a horrible trap.

Thanks.


34 posted on 05/06/2010 4:28:58 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

I’ve usually admired her spunk and fiestiness.


35 posted on 05/06/2010 4:30:23 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: metmom

INDEED.


36 posted on 05/06/2010 4:32:32 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Salvation

Reports range from 20% to 70% of all Muslims supporting Jihadis to some degree or another.

The verses in their founding documents about converting or killing all non-Muslims are there and

IF A MUSLIM BLEIEVES THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS AT ALL, HE BELIEVES IN THAT PART, TOO.

ALSO, the ****ONLY**** confidence afforded in their religion at all of ANY SERIOUS, RELIABLE HOPE of eternal salvation is

BY WAGING WAR AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS AND DYING KILLED IN THAT WAR.

THAT REALITY IS TRUE FOR EVERY MUSLIM WHO IS THE LEAST SERIOUS BIT A MUSLIM.


37 posted on 05/06/2010 4:35:47 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Salvation

Reports range from 20% to 70% of all Muslims supporting Jihadis to some degree or another.

20% OF A BILLION PLUS PEOPLE is more than a few out to kill

. . . or forcefully under threat of beheading . . .

every Roman Catholic et al and every other Christian.


38 posted on 05/06/2010 4:36:48 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
I’m not sure how righteous those exhortations were if they were not originating from Christ, Himself.

Have you forgotten your Scripture?

"No one can say, 'Jesus Christ is Lord', except in the Holy Spirit."

Not to mention that you're making what amounts to an ad hominem argument: "Whether it's true or not depends on who's saying it."

Reason with me, Quix.

Anything Satan does, he is able to do because God permits him to do it. True or false?

God, in Scripture, condemns leading little children astray and says it ought to be punished with a millstone around the neck. True or false?

The Fatima apparitions began with an entity identified as St. Michael the Archangel teaching the children to pray, "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy." True or false? [That part is factual: true.]

If the Fatima apparitions were demonic in their entirety, then this episode was demonic also. True or false?

So you're asking me to believe that God permitted a demonic entity to teach little children to call on Jesus for their salvation? Can demonic entities even do that?

Even assuming a demonic entity is capable of that, or would want to, how is permitting that consistent with God's own revelation of his character in Scripture? Doesn't it put God's millstone around his own neck?

They just ended up causing millions of people to attach themselves all the more firmly to Mary vs to Christ.

Please explain how (1) teaching people to call on Jesus for their salvation; (2) teaching people that the world is due for chastisement because of its sins (and giving specific signs portending some of those chastisements); and (3) teaching people that hell is real and fearful somehow "causes millions of people to attach themselves ... to Mary vs to Christ".

IMO, Protestants' real objection to Fatima is simple. If Fatima is true, then Catholicism is true. Therefore, Fatima cannot be true.

39 posted on 05/06/2010 5:06:42 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Quix
And, all the messages sound to me like they are quite geared to intensifying respect for, adoration of, submission to the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage the Vatican has elevated into sharing the “hypostatic union” with The Trinity.

The "hypostatic union" refers to the union of Christ's human and divine natures in one Divine Person. It has nothing to do with Mary, except that she helped to bring it about.

I don't know what you think "Mary sharing the 'hypostatic union' with the Trinity" means (the phrase makes no theological sense), but it's not Catholic doctrine.

40 posted on 05/06/2010 5:19:33 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Quix
The “dancing sun” aspect was clearly a common larger [medium in some respects] UFO craft blotting out the sun and performing other typical maneuvers in the incident.

Clearly? Well, sure, except that 70,000 people saw it and (a) didn't describe seeing a "craft" of any kind; and (b) didn't describe anything "blotting out the sun"; and (c) saw the sun, not a "craft" piloted by "critters," appear to move around the sky.

So, yeah, if you just ignore all of the eyewitness accounts, it was clearly a UFO. Or maybe it was Obama, visiting from the future, in Air Force One.

41 posted on 05/06/2010 5:25:46 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: markomalley

In Portugal, pope will address spiritual and political challenges
May 5, 2010

The statue of Our Lady of Fatima is seen in the Chapel of Apparitions at Fatima in this 2005 file photo. (CNS/Paul Haring)

By John Thavis
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI's four-day visit to Portugal will focus on spiritual, political and economic questions seen as crucial for the country and the rest of modern Europe.

The May 11-14 trip is first of all a pilgrimage to the Marian shrine of Fatima, where three young shepherd children had visions of Mary in 1917. In the pope's view, Mary's appearances in human history are an important sign for the church and the world, a much-needed invitation to conversion.

On a political level, the German pontiff will visit Portugal at a time when cultural change is challenging the country's Catholic identity. Most specifically, the country appears poised to legalize same-sex marriage, but on a broader level, church leaders are concerned about erosion of traditional moral values, especially among the young.

Finally, the pope's visit coincides with an economic downturn in Portugal that has threatened to make it the next crisis zone in the European Union. The pope will have an opportunity to revisit one of his favorite themes: European unity built solely on financial interests is bound to fail.

The schedule in Portugal is a demanding one for the 83-year-old pope, with 17 major events and at least 11 speeches. His busiest day, May 12, will include separate meetings in Lisbon with cultural leaders and Prime Minister Jose Socrates, followed by a helicopter trip to Fatima for events that will last well into the night.

On May 13, the feast of Our Lady of Fatima, the pope will celebrate Mass outside the shrine and afterward go inside to visit the tombs of the three shepherd visionaries. His visit marks the 10th anniversary of the beatification of two of the seers, Blesseds Francisco and Jacinta Marto.

There has been speculation that during the visit that the pope may announce the future beatification of Carmelite Sister Lucia dos Santos, the only one of the Fatima visionaries to survive to adulthood. She died in 2005 and two years ago the pope lifted the normal five-year waiting period to begin her canonization process.

As Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican's top doctrinal official, the pope was often a voice of caution when it came to apparitions and supernatural messages. In 2000, however, he played a central role when the Vatican published the so-called third secret of Fatima; Cardinal Ratzinger said the secret, written down by Sister Lucia after Mary's appearances, made sense as a symbolic prophecy of the church's 20th-century struggles against evil political systems.

The future pope at that time described such apparitions as "interior visions" that were not mere fantasy and that reflected Mary's continuing role in the church: that of intervening in support of the saving mission of her son. These are typically fleeting appearances to humble people, he said, and they rely on powerful symbolic images and language rather than "lengthy speeches."

In Fatima, the pope is expected to talk about the relevance of such visions in modern society. He will also pray for his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, who believed that Mary had saved his life after he was shot May 13, 1981 -- the feast of Our Lady of Fatima.

Pope Benedict will begin his visit in Lisbon, the capital, where he will be welcomed by President Anibal Cavaco Silva, who will later host the pope for private talks. Silva, a Catholic, is in a tough political spot. He must decide by May 19 whether to veto a same-sex marriage bill approved by lawmakers in February.

The pope has made it clear that he sees such legislation as part of Europe's moral unraveling and as an attack on the natural order of creation. Speaking to diplomats in January, he denounced "laws or proposals which, in the name of fighting discrimination, strike at the biological basis of the difference between the sexes."

Portuguese Social Democrats, led by Prime Minister Socrates, say they have enough votes to override a presidential veto on the same-sex marriage law.

About 90 percent of Portugal's population professes Catholicism, but the church's declining influence in public policy was seen in 2007, when abortion was legalized. The country's dropping birth rate, one of the lowest in the world, also worries church leaders.

Portuguese bishops are looking to the pope to help the church reclaim its rightful voice in the public arena and to fire up the troops -- the church's pastoral workers. In one important and somewhat unusual encounter, the pope will address Catholics who work in the church's social programs, offering him a chance to preach his message that Christianity is essentially love of God and love of neighbor, expressed in concrete actions.

Portugal's economic problems have already triggered austerity measures and a series of strikes, as well as resentment over the expected dip in the standard of living. The larger questions being raised in Greece, Portugal and Spain concern the future of the European Union itself.

Pope Benedict has long maintained that Europe's newfound unity will not survive on economics alone. He has also criticized the trend toward denying the Judeo-Christian roots of European culture.

As the pope said in 2007: "One cannot think about building a 'common European home' ignoring the identity of the people of our continent. In fact, it is a matter of a historical, cultural and moral identity, even more than a geographical, economic and political one."

If, as German Chancellor Angela Merkel said, the recent economic woes have placed the future of the European Union at stake, one can expect the pope to weigh in at this critical juncture.
42 posted on 05/06/2010 6:07:47 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: The Cajun
If the pope, at that time, really believed that it was the virgin, who was he or any mortal for that matter not to follow her orders to the letter.

Exactly.

That makes no sense.

43 posted on 05/06/2010 7:14:39 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Campion; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; ...
Normally, am happy to try and reason with folks. It sometimes helps if I'm fully awake and, on the other end of the day, not overly tired.

1. I accepted Fatima as more or less true most of the decades of my life.

2. No, I did not see any percentage of Fatima being true as a wholesale affirmation of the whole Vatican Institution and all it's dogma etc. . . . to put it politely.

3. Because . . . God is incredibly merciful and often meets folks where they are in spite of our silly notions and practices. Sometimes, that may appear to affirm all manner of hideous hogwash when it does not, really. It's "just" God being incredibly merciful in this or that or a few ways--regardless.

4. Satan persistently mixes truth and half-truths with lies. In terms of the Scripture about Jesus being Lord--one Pastor I had taught that the verse meant that no one can say that Jesus is Lord of THEIR lives but by Holy Spirit.

And, we have:

Acts 16:16-18 (King James Version)

16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

5. It seems to me, that in context, verse 16 could easily be construed as asserting that Jesus was Lord.

6. It seems to me, that the verse you cited must mean that no human mortal can say that Jesus is Lord of their life except by Holy Spirit or that no human mortal can say that Jesus is THE LORD except Holy Spirit has convincingly affirmed them of that and they have joined Holy Spirit's confirmation of that with their faith to affirm it as a reality in their life and in the universe in general.

7. We know in another passage:

Acts 19:13 THE MESSAGE VERS
Some itinerant Jewish exorcists who happened to be in town at the time tried their hand at what they assumed to be Paul's "game." They pronounced the name of the Master Jesus over victims of evil spirits, saying, "I command you by the Jesus preached by Paul!" The seven sons of a certain Sceva, a Jewish high priest, were trying to do this on a man when the evil spirit talked back: "I know Jesus and I've heard of Paul, but who are you?" Then the possessed man went berserk—jumped the exorcists, beat them up, and tore off their clothes. Naked and bloody, they got away as best they could.

8. Certainly it is clear that evil forces know full well who Jesus is. Throughout the NT Jesus silenced demonized folks lest they affirm who He was out of God's timing or out or place.

9. I think the bit about God putting the millstone around His own neck is . . . nonsense on the face of it. It is akin to atheists saying that since all things were created by God, God is the author of evil.

10. I have not examined the whole of the Fatima record in terms of EVERY DETAIL and what parts I'd take as authentic representations of fact and which I would not be so eager to do that on.

11. However, assuming that your initial quote was accurate, it is not beyond my understanding of Scripture for evil forces to use such an opening to begin a seduction of a populace in that era and that place. The higher priority for those forces would have been to be seen as kosher, Christian, Roman Catholic etc. Those forces would have had the LONG term goal in mind--particularly the goal of cementing millions of people to the notion that such forces dispensed Gospel truth--when they were actually deviating ONLY SUFFICIENTLY to result in a horrible trap many decades hence.

12. By telling a very RELIGIOUS, more or less Christian population what they already knew--namely that

. . . calling on Jesus for their salvation; (2) teaching people that the world is due for chastisement because of its sins (and giving specific signs portending some of those chastisements); and (3) teaching people that hell is real and fearful . . .

.

13. Would quite likely convince that populace . . . and evidently millions besides . . . that the forces involved were Godly and spoke total truth. What better way to set a RELIGIOUS or spiritual populace up for subtle seduction--particularly over a considerable to lengthy period of time?

14. Again, Fatima being true had no real bearing, to me, on the validity of the whole Vatican Institution and still doesn't. As I've noted, GOD IS INCREDIBLY MERCIFUL in spite of a LOT of our silly notions and practices.

15. ACTUALLY, the messages of Fatima have paralleled a long list of such messages from UFO critters in varous formats, venues, charicterizations, details etc.

16. If one compiles a lot of them together, few of them agree on varying details of varying significance.

17. However, most of them speak of the world headed for chastisement; a NEW AGE; a NEW WORLD ORDER once the 'evil' has been expunged, dealt with, wiped clean, overcome, obliterated, buried under volcanic and other chaos etc. etc. etc.

18. Certainly Scripture agrees.

19. However, SCRIPTURE ALSO NOTES that the END TIMES DECEPTION WILL BE SO GREAT THAT IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, THE VERY ELECT OF GOD, BELIEVERS THEMSELVES WOULD BELIEVE THE LIE.

20. I think Christians of all stripes minimize that hazard out of their own pride . . . personal pride and pride in their own IN-GROUP and their reference IN-GROUP'S DOGMA.

21. ONE of the distortions--subtle to not so subtle--of Fatima is that MARY IS THE DEITY FIGURE GIVING INSTRUCTIONS, PROMISING TO SAVE THE WORLD--IF--IF--THE WORLD COMPLIES WITH HER INSTRUCTIONS, SHE IS THE MAJOR ACTING-IN-CHARGE-PERSONAGE ON THE SCENE--NOT JESUS. It's not even an obviously kosher angel from The Lord's Presence as occurs so much in the Old and New Testaments--speaking of JESUS being in charge and actively involved in Saving the world.

NO! It's this caricatured Mary personage and her drawing the world to focus on HER HEART.

!!!DANGER!!!
!WILL ROBINSON!
!!!DANGER!!!

22. It is MARY'S 'IMMACULATE HEART' that is an emphasis--NOT JESUS' BLOOD, NOR EVEN SCRIPTURE.

There is also an emphasis on RITUALS ASSOCIATED PRIMARILY WITH MARY.

!!!DANGER!!!
!WILL ROBINSON!
!!!DANGER!!!

The pseudo-REDEMPTIVE ELEMENT offered to the world is:

A FOCUS ON
THE
[purported]
IMMACULATE
HEART
[not even of Jesus but]
OF
MARY

Galatians 1:6
[ The Message ] I can't believe your fickleness—how easily you have turned traitor to him who called you by the grace of Christ by embracing a variant message! It is not a minor variation, you know; it is completely other, an alien message, a no-message, a lie about God. Those who are provoking this agitation among you are turning the Message of Christ on its head. Let me be blunt: If one of us—even if an angel from heaven!—were to preach something other than what we preached originally, let him be cursed. I said it once; I'll say it again: If anyone, regardless of reputation or credentials [REGARDLESS of related DRAMATIC SOUND & LIGHT SHOWS; MASS HYPNOSIS TECHNIQUES AND TECHNOLOGIES; regardless of the presence of a personage purporting to be Mary--IF ANYONE OR ANYTHING], preaches something other than what you received originally, let him be cursed.

THAT'S A PRETTY HUGE DEVIATION FROM THE GOSPEL FOCUS.

May God have mercy on us and protect us from ANY deviation from our focus on CHRIST ALONE, CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED, THE REDEMPTIVE BLOOD OF JESUS.

44 posted on 05/06/2010 9:47:05 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Campion; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; ...
THAT'S NOT HOW SUCH THINGS READ, TO ME:

p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence SHE PARTICIPATES------>IN<-------the INFINITE SANCTITY of GOD."

p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"

p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]

9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]

5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]

p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."

--from John Ferraro's TEN SERIES OF MEDITATIONS ON THE MYSTERIES OF THE ROSARY

45 posted on 05/06/2010 10:02:03 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: markomalley

Kind of tough to ignore three pages of big blue .... stuff.


46 posted on 05/06/2010 10:02:32 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Campion

VERY GOOD POINTS! I THINK THE CAUTION THEY HAVE AS A CHRISTIAN TURNS INTO PARANOIA BECAUSE IT JUST DOES NOT COMPUTE TO WHAT THEY PERCIEVED TO BE THEIR CHRISTIAN WORLD VIEW OF THE SCRIPTURES AND CHURCH. THE REAL VISIONS DECLARE CHRIST CAME IN THE FLESH AND UPHOLD CHRIST IN THE GOSPELS. I LEFT THE CHURCH FOR 5 YEARS BUT REALIZED THE TRUTH BEHIND THESE VISIONS AND OTHER TRUTHS. DURING THESE YEARS I WOULD GO TO CHRISTIAN BOOKSTORES AND THEY WOULD HAVE FOXES BOOK OF MATYRS AND WHORE OF BABLYON NONSENSE BOOKS GALORE WHICH ARE SO MALICIOUSLY FRAUDULENT HALF TRUTHS THAT THE NAIVE WOULD BELIEVE. NOW I REMEMBER THIS PARANOIA WHICH THEY THINK IS CAUTION. WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS THERE ARE EXPLICIT AND WHAT IS NOT DIRECTLY EXPRESSED THEOLOGY IN THE SCRIPTURES. FIRST CAME THE CHURCH THEN THE REST THE COUNCILS AND BIBLE. ALSO WOULD THERE NOT BE A CARETAKERS OF THE CHURCH THAT HAVE CONTINUED TO DECIDE RIGHT RULE OF LIVING AS CHRISTIANS. ONLY ONE MAIN BRANCH FOR 2000 YEARS CLAIMS THIS! ITS THE OLDEST ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD WOULD NOT GOD GUIDE IN GOOD TIMES AND BAD. THE CHURCH THAT WROTE THE BOOK. I ‘LL GO BY THE AUTHORS OF THE BOOK ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. NOW SWIMMING THE TIBER. YOUR FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD PAPIST!


47 posted on 05/06/2010 10:04:30 AM PDT by johngrace
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To: Campion

That depends on which sources you read.

Good, solid research into original documents as well as eye-witness testimony has indicated something else quite different from many eyewitness observers . . .

essentially . . .

a CRAFT . . . the descriptions of which match identically

thousands of other descriptions of UFO’s over the centuries and particularly in this one.


48 posted on 05/06/2010 10:05:15 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Judith Anne

He can’t understand the love poetry for our Mother. He doesn’t understand that some writing is not official. You know private revelation from public revelation. He goes to personal commentaries as official. Interjects everywhere. Do you remember this in LUKE 1:17And he will go on before the Lord, in the SPIRIT and POWER of ELIJAH, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” Now what if you put the spirit of Mary as same. GEE whose spirit is it. Hello! could be the Holy Spirit!! What paranoia!!


49 posted on 05/06/2010 10:34:05 AM PDT by johngrace
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To: johngrace; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; ...

NOPE. Some folks make detecting

UNMITIGATED UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE

super easy.


50 posted on 05/06/2010 10:40:34 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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