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Radio Replies Second Volume - The Idealization of Protestantism
Celledoor.com ^ | 1940 | Fathers Rumble & Carty

Posted on 05/08/2010 9:30:27 PM PDT by GonzoII

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To: Judith Anne

So where was your civility in using the word “bigots” near the beginning of the comments on this thread when describing Christians who disagree with the Catholic church? Seems that you came out of your corner ready to start the unpleasantness from the very start.


151 posted on 05/09/2010 11:09:00 AM PDT by My hearts in London - Everett (So the writer who breeds more words than he needs, is making a chore for the reader who reads.)
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To: Judith Anne

There are worse fates. Have a good one.

SnakeDoc


152 posted on 05/09/2010 11:11:01 AM PDT by SnakeDoctor ("The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant [...] that even a god-king can bleed.")
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To: OneVike

ROFL! Pages and pages of spam from bigoted websites is not a “proof” of anything, except lame sources.


153 posted on 05/09/2010 11:11:59 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: sabe@q.com
"Huh?"

Reliable history.

154 posted on 05/09/2010 11:12:01 AM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: My hearts in London - Everett

Facts are facts. Have an ever-so-charming day.


155 posted on 05/09/2010 11:13:56 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Judith Anne

I am curious as to exactly what you percieve as “bigoted”. Do you have some examples?

SnakeDoc


156 posted on 05/09/2010 11:22:26 AM PDT by SnakeDoctor ("The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant [...] that even a god-king can bleed.")
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To: Judith Anne; OneVike

Sounds like you are the one thin skinned Judith.


157 posted on 05/09/2010 11:28:50 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Persevero

“It has the BIBLE, for heaven’s sakes.”

To which I expect someone to respond that we are unworthy to interpret the meaning of the Bible. that we must have a priest to translate for us.

Of course there is no biblical basis for that position.


158 posted on 05/09/2010 11:33:10 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: GonzoII

To me, its about faith.


159 posted on 05/09/2010 11:34:58 AM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: driftdiver; Persevero

“To which I expect someone to respond that we are unworthy to interpret the meaning of the Bible. that we must have a priest to translate for us.”

Why do you think Martin Luther was excommunicated?


160 posted on 05/09/2010 11:37:49 AM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: vladimir998
[roamer_1:] The Gemera, Josephus, Seneca, Tacticus, Pliny the Elder, Suetonius, and many others... All are not credible? Their silence on the matter of the highly structured Papist faith speaks volumes.

No, it doesn’t. If you look, you’ll see more than you might think. Pliny, for instance, makes reference to deaconesses and apparently to the sacrament of the altar (without realizing it).

Deacons are the least offensive office between factions - Everyone accepts that the office of deacon is Biblically valid, and that office is largely the same all the way across.

I would take exception to the idea that Pliny refers " apparently to the sacrament of the altar (without realizing it)." The reference is vague, stating only that after a service, the Christians would depart and go somewhere else to eat together. It could just as easily defend the long custom in many families of going out to breakfast at a diner after Sunday service.

Medieval Sourcebook: Pliny on the Christians

Many people today forget that Acts itself speaks of bishops (Apostles), presbyters (priests) and deacons. That in itself implies a highly structured church on the episcopal level.

No, Acts describes bishops (head elder), presbyters (elders), and deacons. Elders are a fairly normal construct in both Greek and more importantly, Hebrew communities, and do not speak to an ornate hierarchy, but to a simple one.

Also, Pliny makes clear that even after more than 70 years the Romans still did not understand what Christianity was about, who was involved or how it worked on the ground (maybe “underground” should be the word used there). Christians were often secretive. The Romans couldn’t write about what they didn’t know.

I find that to lean more toward my position - A rigid hierarchy would be easy to detect and destroy, while a simple structure is more fluid, and hard to define.

And the fact that Rome didn't understand also points away from an ornate hierarchical structure - something which was very common in Roman religions of every type. That priests are not mentioned is odd, especially from a Roman perspective, see? .

161 posted on 05/09/2010 11:41:49 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: sabe@q.com

“Why do you think Martin Luther was excommunicated?”

1. Because he translated the bible into a language the common person could read.

2. Because he threatened the political power of the Catholic Church.

3. Because he had a problem with the Catholic Church requiring cash payments so the priests would ‘forgive’ peoples sins.


162 posted on 05/09/2010 11:43:00 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

Actually there were a few more but whose counting.


163 posted on 05/09/2010 11:48:36 AM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: driftdiver

Oh, yeah. My son says I’m a sissy! ROFL!


164 posted on 05/09/2010 11:49:14 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: SnakeDoctor

Yes.


165 posted on 05/09/2010 11:50:11 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: OneVike; My hearts in London - Everett
Yup, sounds like liberals to me.

What other strategy is left when you post their own documents showing the error they have fallen into. The last recourse is to condemn you and try to censor your views.

FWIW, I have found your posts very persuasive especially #58.

166 posted on 05/09/2010 11:52:16 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: GonzoII
It is germane if you make the link back to the apostles and therefore Christ himself [...]

Another wholly unprovable point (apostolic succession).

167 posted on 05/09/2010 11:53:20 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Judith Anne

Care to share them?

SnakeDoc


168 posted on 05/09/2010 11:55:15 AM PDT by SnakeDoctor ("The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant [...] that even a god-king can bleed.")
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To: sabe@q.com

I was trying to hit the high points.


169 posted on 05/09/2010 11:56:10 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: SnakeDoctor

No. I’m busy. Would you like me to ping you to the next 10-20 I answer?


170 posted on 05/09/2010 11:57:24 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: driftdiver

I was going to post LOL but honestly it really isn’t funny at all, its very sad.


171 posted on 05/09/2010 11:57:31 AM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: roamer_1; GonzoII

“Another wholly unprovable point (apostolic succession).”

Why should it even matter? Jesus was sent for all of us that accept him as our savior. Not just for those who claim to have some spurious connection.


172 posted on 05/09/2010 11:58:15 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: sabe@q.com

Sad in which way?


173 posted on 05/09/2010 11:59:03 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Judith Anne

I don’t need citations ... off the top of your head will do. What type of Protestant-made statements do you consider bigoted?

SnakeDoc


174 posted on 05/09/2010 12:00:03 PM PDT by SnakeDoctor ("The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant [...] that even a god-king can bleed.")
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To: driftdiver

I guess I’m just a simpleton. I listen to the holy spirit when I read the Word of God. As a believer, I have faith its just that easy.


175 posted on 05/09/2010 12:00:44 PM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: GonzoII; OneVike
You will probably reply that this is not Scripture, fine, it's still history four hundred years before this absurd claim: (wrt Maccabees)

Being less likely to avoid the Apocrypha than my brethren, I can still readily attest that this particularly (the prayers for the dead) is one of many problems pointing to the Hellenization of the Apocryphal books. It is also why they are absent from the Masoretic texts.

176 posted on 05/09/2010 12:02:37 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: GonzoII

Why are some people more preoccupied with a source than with the content of the post? Reads as though they seek to target the source than the content of the post.


177 posted on 05/09/2010 12:06:49 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: sabe@q.com

“I listen to the holy spirit when I read the Word of God. As a believer, I have faith its just that easy.”

I hear ya, but some want us to think its a difficult thing. If Jesus is our King then we have no use for others. That is a threat to political power.


178 posted on 05/09/2010 12:07:14 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

Ya King Henry VIII might of had it right after all. Then again, maybe it was God.


179 posted on 05/09/2010 12:08:24 PM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: SnakeDoctor

No. I’m busy. Would you like me to ping you to the next 10-20 I answer?


180 posted on 05/09/2010 12:10:56 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: OneVike
All of a sudden the truth is claimed to be hate speech and slander.

Not everywhere, brother... Not yet.

181 posted on 05/09/2010 12:14:17 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: GonzoII; sabe@q.com
History shows that there was a central authority..read Clement.

Again, to my point. History shows no such thing - It is self-declared by the Roman church.

182 posted on 05/09/2010 12:28:58 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: GonzoII

btt


183 posted on 05/09/2010 12:31:48 PM PDT by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: ConservativeMind
Still, it’s making me want to start a consistent series of daily threads against Catholicism.

Why bother when we have the poster-Catholics---the Kennedy clan?

184 posted on 05/09/2010 12:46:21 PM PDT by lonestar (Better Obama picks his nose than our pockets!)
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To: driftdiver; GonzoII

Why should it even matter? Jesus was sent for all of us that accept him as our savior. Not just for those who claim to have some spurious connection.

It is particular to the idea that an exclusive group has authority, and no one else. It is a familiar meme, but it must be challenged outright, even as one must challenge the authority of LDS and Muslims.

While the Roman Church has not used it's self declared authority to "officially" add to the Book (as with LDS, Muslim), it may as well have, as it's traditions are considered equal to the Word of God (according to them).

This precise condition was present in the Jewish system in Christ's time, and He found it to be invalid (to say the very least).

And finally, on the subject of succession, it is made plain by Paul's conversion - While the Apostles were busy electing Mattias, Christ was electing Paul. On His own, without any participation of the Church.

Therein lies the lesson.

185 posted on 05/09/2010 12:52:15 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: lonestar

I mean really how convicted would leaders in the Catholic Church be when they granted an annulment to Ted Kennedy?


186 posted on 05/09/2010 12:52:27 PM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: Persevero
....and considering the various acts done in the name of the “authority of the Apostolic Church throughout the centuries,” can hardly commend this “inerrancy” of which most so proudly boast.

Considering also the most recent heinous crimes for which the leaders of the Church at Rome both deny and protect the evildoers, would give me great pause to be claiming "the One True Faith" as well as the now and future "qualified" inhabitants in Heaven.

As our Lord said, "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in your name.....' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' Matt:6:22 & 23.

187 posted on 05/09/2010 12:52:45 PM PDT by zerosix (Native Sunflower)
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To: sabe@q.com

Or Mel Gibson


188 posted on 05/09/2010 1:09:21 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: roamer_1
"Again, to my point. History shows no such thing..."

History does have some undeniable truths. One of these is that the reformation drove far more away from God than it hoped to save. Unified Catholic Christendom, before the 16th century, had not been plagued by the tragic religious wars which in turn led to the "Enlightenment," in which men rejected the hypocrisy of inter-Christian warfare and decided to become indifferent to religion rather than letting it guide their lives.

189 posted on 05/09/2010 1:10:11 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: OneVike
" Your adherence to traditions invalidate the word of God."

Protestantism is an ultimate lie in that it claims to refute and replace the "traditions of men" by replacing the Apostolic Tradition with the traditions of mere men. Every Protestant denomination is dominated by the tradition of its founder's vision.

190 posted on 05/09/2010 1:13:17 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: sabe@q.com
"I’m not anti-Catholic."

Protestantism, from its inception was anti-Catholic, and remains so to this day (esp. evangelicalism). This is obviously wrong and unbiblical if Catholicism is indeed Christian (if it isn't, then - logically - neither is Protestantism, which inherited the bulk of its theology from Catholicism). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is not anti-Protestant.

191 posted on 05/09/2010 1:16:30 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

“Unified Catholic Christendom, before the 16th century, had not been plagued by the tragic religious wars which in turn led to the “Enlightenment,”

eh? yeah that time period was the picture of peace and tranquility.

Jesus came for our salvation, nothing else. Its a simple message that people only screw up.


192 posted on 05/09/2010 1:19:08 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Natural Law

” Every Protestant denomination is dominated by the tradition of its founder’s vision. “

Yep you’re right. Dominated by the tradition of our founder, that of Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Not some doctrine, idol, or gold plated candle stick.

So you claim the Bible is a lie?


193 posted on 05/09/2010 1:20:46 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Natural Law

Well I don’t label people and neither does the Word of God.


194 posted on 05/09/2010 1:27:28 PM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: driftdiver; Natural Law

“So you claim the Bible is a lie?”

Natural Law has already responded to me that the Bible isn’t 100% about God or something like that.

To me either you are a Christian or you aren’t. I know, simpleton again.


195 posted on 05/09/2010 1:30:27 PM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: driftdiver

no way? They granted an annulment to Mel Gibson? And he and the mother of his most recent baby didn’t marry and are already not engaged in a relationship.


196 posted on 05/09/2010 1:32:09 PM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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To: Judith Anne

Nevermind. I really don’t want a ping to every argument you get into.

I just wanted an example or two off the top of your head. I figured as much as you use the term, there must have been some very indelible instances. The fact that you can’t think of any doesn’t really help the credibility of the “bigotry” accusation. You’ve used the accusation a couple of times in this very thread, including labeling several websites ... and you can’t even cite the specific statements on those websites you found bigoted?

Good grief.

SnakeDoc


197 posted on 05/09/2010 1:35:16 PM PDT by SnakeDoctor ("The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant [...] that even a god-king can bleed.")
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To: sabe@q.com

“Natural Law has already responded to me that the Bible isn’t 100% about God or something like that.”

A lot of false teachers will say that.

“To me either you are a Christian or you aren’t. I know, simpleton again.”

Seems I’ve seen that somewhere before.


198 posted on 05/09/2010 1:35:41 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: sabe@q.com

“They granted an annulment to Mel Gibson?”

I read that he offered up a bunch of money and some story that his 29 year marriage wasn’t really a marriage.

“he and the mother of his most recent baby didn’t marry and are already not engaged in a relationship”

yeah I heard they broke up after she pressured him to marry her, that and he was caught with someone else.


199 posted on 05/09/2010 1:37:22 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20272857,00.html

He can still receive communion because he only got a civil divorce. LOL.

Hey but I don’t have a problem with that. I believe as the first church in the Book of Acts believe. Communion is just something to symbolize communion with Christ bread equals body and wine equals blood and the family meets together on the first day of the week equals Sunday. But hey. I get that from the Book of Acts so what do I know?


200 posted on 05/09/2010 1:38:59 PM PDT by sabe@q.com (Yes, I'm a SW freak!)
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