Skip to comments.Radio Replies Second Volume - The Idealization of Protestantism
Posted on 05/08/2010 9:30:27 PM PDT by GonzoII
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You accuse many FR Protestants of bigotry and say that they are deserving of attacks from FR Catholics — thus making their beliefs and percieved biases the subject of your posts and attacks. One cannot level such attacks and expect to not be questioned about their own beliefs and biases.
The question is straighforward — do you consider Protestant doctrine inherently bigoted in its objections to Catholic doctrines? The question can be better phrased ... does my intentional disbelief in many Catholic doctrines (almost universally mirrored throughout Protestant Christianity) make me a bigot?
Protestantism is, by the stated reasons for its foundation, anti-Catholic. Protestantism to justify its continuing existence must declare Catholicism wrong, heretical, and not Christian.
To rationalize this Protestants constantly make bold proclamations about what the Catholic Church teaches and what Catholics believe without ever having read or studied the Church history and Catechism beyond the self-serving lectures and sermons of Protestant preachers whose livelihood is dependant upon fomenting anti-Catholic bigotry. Recognizing this and citing examples is not the sin.
“Catholics dont worship dead people either”
Sure they do. Idols as well.
“Maybe it would help you if would invoke the Holy Spirit who is God for discernment of the Scriptures.”
I thought I had to have a priest?
YOur understanding of the English language is as poor as your understanding of Scripture and the Catechism. You would be well served if you gained an understanding of the difference between the words worship and venerate and between the words icon and idol.
You may be able to explain what you believe and why, but you are completely ignorant of Catholicism. Further, you should try to explain how you can profess any intimate or in depth knowledge or understanding of what the Catholic Church does or does not teach and what Catholics do or do not believe without ever having read the Catechism.
Thank you for a FINE example of telling Catholics what they believe, even though you don’t know the subject well.
That bigoted behavior is much appreciated, for the edification of Snake Doctor.
FYI, Catholics are encouraged to read the Bible on their own. They can even receive one of those infamous indulgences for it, no money involved.
I cannot answer for Judith Anne, but I certainly do consider it bigoted for the reasons explained in post #342.
I thought personal attacks were not permitted?
A classic, backseat Catholic apologetic. I encourage you to take a History Lesson: Positively Protestant. Here's a quick summary:
What do the major historians of Protestantism say? Like almost all their colleagues, John Dillenberger and Claude Welch link the origin of the word Protestant to the Protestation of the German evangelical estates in the second Diet of Speyer. But they see in that term the duality of protest and affirmative witness. That protest, they write, wasfrom the standpoint of affirmed faith. Few churches ever adopted the name Protestant. The most commonly adopted designations were rather evangelical and reformed. ... [W]hen the word Protestant came into currency in England (in Elizabethan times), its accepted significance was not objection but avowal or witness or confession (as the Latin protestari meant also to profess).That meaning lasted for another century, say Dillenberger and Welch, and it referred to the Church of Englandsmaking its profession of the faith in the Thirty-nine Articles and the Book of Common Prayer. Only later did the word protest come to have a primarily negative significance, and the term Protestant come to refer to non-Roman churches in general.....When Edward VI was crowned, the word still had a positive connotation. On the CultureVulture blog for the Guardian, Sean Clarke notes that it was 60 years from the introduction of Protestant in English until its first use in the extended sense of "object, dissent, or disapprove. That (according to the Collins Etymological Dictionary) was first recorded in English in 1608. The Online Etymological Dictionary places the first use of protest to mean statement of disapproval in the year 1751another century and a half. Through much of that history and well after, protest continued to mean avow, affirm, witness, or solemnly proclaim.
Poor, misunderstood protest has had a history something like that of another wordapology. That word has gone from its positive, head-held-high sense of a formal justification or defense (as in the essay was an apology for capitalism) to something tinged with shame and remorse (a statement of regret or request for pardon).
Much of Protestantism and most of the anti-Catholic bigots who frequent the Catholic topic threads on the Religion Forum draw their identity more from their opposition to all things Catholic than from their relationship with God.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
“Thank you for a FINE example of telling Catholics what they believe, even though you dont know the subject well.”
I know what Catholics have told me they believe. I know what Catholics do.
“That bigoted behavior is much appreciated, for the edification of Snake Doctor.”
So anyone who disagrees is a bigot?
Are you playing a game? Do you need attention? Are you trying to bait someone into an argument?
I have heard Catholics say Protestants are not Christian, just as I have heard Protestants say Catholics are not Christian.
However, Protestant Christianity has never doctrinally claimed exclusivity in its relationship to Christ and the Almighty (though some denominations thereof certainly have). The very nature of Protestantism is that Salvation is achieved through grace and a personal relationship with Christ. Salvation is therefore individual, not through a specific denomination. A Baptist can be just as saved as a Calvinist, Methodist or Catholic — some denominations may be more conduscive than others, but doctrinal errors are one of many sins covered by Grace.
Catholic doctrine does claim exclusivity. So, it would seem to me that Catholicism is more invested in the failure of Protestantism than vice versa. If Protestantism succeeds, Catholicism is wrong in its claim of being the one true church of Christ. To Protestants, the success of Catholicism makes Catholicism but one of many branches of Christ’s chuch, as Protestants have claimed.
As far as I am aware, most mainstream Protestant denominations regard Catholics, though wrong in several respects, as brothers in Christ. Catholics very often seem to regard Protestants as heretics. However, I will acknowledge that Protestantism has fundamental objections to Catholicism which define it, and that Protestant denominations do not hesitate to make those objections known.
I think the characterization of Protestantism as anti-Catholic is a bit too heavy. There are doctrines which are specifically contrary to Catholicism, but mainstream Protestants do not typically regard Catholics as non-Christian. I certainly don’t.
What can I say...when you have 24,000 sects pressing down on you, who would know the truth. God appointed 24,000 sects to put his word out? Where is that in scripture, Christ appointed 24,000 sects?. God always appointed one person to represent Him, like Moses, like Peter. And I’m sure many are dead that started all those 24,000 sects, so continuing to listen to dead men who are not appointed by God is worshipping them and not God.
‘Are you playing a game? “
Yep with peoples souls as the chips. I’d hate to see people lose their salvation because they think they just need to be a good person and do good things to be saved.
“Do you need attention? Are you trying to bait someone into an argument?”
Here I thought this thread was for discussion. Yet anyone that disagrees with Catholicism is told they are going to hell, bigoted, evil incarnate.
If you regard my faith as inherently bigoted, then only a complete surrender of that faith will you find acceptably non-bigoted. I find such a surrender unacceptable. We seem to be at an impasse.
I will state outright that I would rather be labeled a “bigot” than to betray my faith in Christ. However, I find the label disingenuous when I regard you as a fellow Christian, and you appear to regard me as a heretic.
I just encourage you to read driftdiver’s comments. As regards Catholicism, they are unreliable, of course.
Not sure I understand your 24,000 sects comment. I assume you are referring to some some number of non-catholic ‘churches’. I’ve never used them as I use the Bible.
“God always appointed one person to represent Him, like Moses, like Peter. “
Well he did appoint Moses in the OT. Later he had multiple people he used.
“so continuing to listen to dead men who are not appointed by God is worshipping them and not God.”
Are you saying the Bible shouldn’t be used?