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Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin
CatholicApologetics.org ^ | 05-09-10 | Dr. Robert Schihl and Paul Flanagan

Posted on 05/09/2010 8:29:20 PM PDT by Salvation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics


Apologetics without apology!


What does the Roman Catholic Church teach about ...? ... and why?

This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.

This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:

The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.

Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin

Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin

All Christians believe that Mary was a virgin before and at the time of the birth of her son Jesus.

Is 7:14
The virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.
Mt 1:18-25
Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit. Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly. Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel," which means "God is with us." When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home. He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.
Lk 1:26-27
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.
Nicene Creed (325), Constantinopolitan Creed (381)
... Who for us men and because of our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became human.

Roman Catholic Christians and many other Christians also believe that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life.

Constant faith of the Church

Great teachers of the Church from at least the fourth century spoke of Mary as having remained a virgin throughout her life:

Magisterium of the Church

Council of Constantinople II (553 - 554) twice referred to Mary as "ever-virgin."

Protestant Reformers

The great protestant reformers affirmed their belief in Mary's perpetual virginity:

German reformer Martin Luther's (1483-1546) writings often address the subject of Mary: On the Divine Motherhood of Mary, he wrote
In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such great good things were given her that no one can grasp them. ... Not only was Mary the mother of him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 7, p. 572.)
Luther, true to Catholic tradition, wrote on the Virginity of Mary:
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
The French reformer John Calvin (1509-1564) also held that Mary was the Mother of God
It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor. ... Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God. (Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348, 35.)
On the perpetual virginity of Mary, "Calvin routinely brushes aside the difficulties sometimes raised from "first born" and "brothers of the Lord."" (O'Carroll, M., 1983, Theotokos, M Glazier, Inc.: Wilmington, DE, p. 94.)
The Swiss reformer, Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531), wrote, on the divine motherhood of Mary:
It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 6, I, p. 639.)
On the perpetual virginity of Mary, Zwingli wrote,
I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)
In another place Zwingli professed
I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary ...; Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin. (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)
The more the honor and love for Christ grows among men, the more esteem and honor for Mary grows, for she brought forth for us so great, but so compassionate a Lord and Redeemer. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, pp. 427-428.)

Objections to Continued Virginity

There are some very common objections to the belief that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus. The first considers the "brothers" of Jesus from the Gospels.

Mt 12:46-50; Mk 3:31; Lk 8:19
While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers (adelphoi) appeared outside, wishing to speak with him. (Someone told him, "Your mother and your brothers (adelphoi) are standing outside, asking to speak with you.") But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers (adelphoi)?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers (adelphoi). For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother (adelphos), and sister (adelpha), and mother."
Mk 6:3
Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother (adelphos) of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters (adelphai) here with us?

First it is important to note that the Bible does not say that these "brothers and sisters" of Jesus were children of Mary.

Second, the word for brother (or sister), adelphos (adelpha) in Greek, denotes a brother or sister, or near kinsman. Aramaic and other Semitic languages could not distinguish between a blood brother or sister and a cousin, for example. Hence, John the Baptist, a cousin of Jesus (the son of Elizabeth, cousin of Mary) would be called "a brother (adelphos) of Jesus." In the plural, the word means a community based on identity of origin or life. Additionally, the word adelphos is used for (1) male children of the same parents (Mt 1:2); (2) male descendants of the same parents (Acts 7:23); (3) male children of the same mother (Gal 1:19); (4) people of the same nationality (Acts 3:17); (5) any man, a neighbor (Lk 10:29); (6) persons united by a common interest (Mt 5:47); (7) persons united by a common calling (Rev 22:9); (8) mankind (Mt 25:40); (9) the disciples (Mt 23:8); and (10) believers (Mt 23:8). (From Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Thomas Nelson, Publisher.)

A second objection to Mary's virginity arises from the use of the word, heos, in Matthew's gospel.

Mt 1:25
He (Joseph) had no relations with her until (heos) she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.

The Greek and the Semitic use of the word heos (until or before) does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated. In this case, there is no necessary implication that Joseph and Mary had sexual contact or other children after Jesus.

A third objection to the perpetual virginity of Mary arises from the use of the word, prototokos, translated "first-born" in Luke's gospel.

Lk 2:7
(Mary) gave birth to her firstborn son (prototokos). She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger ...

The Greek word prototokos is used of Christ as born of Mary and of Christ's relationship to His Father (Col 1:25). As the word does not imply other children of God the Father, neither does it imply other children of Mary. The term "first-born" was a legal term under the Mosaic Law (Ex 6:14) referring to the first male child born to Jewish parents regardless of any other children following or not. Hence when Jesus is called the "first-born" of Mary it does not mean that there were second or third-born children.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: blessedvirginmary; catholic; catholiclist; saints
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Continuing with series on the Blessed Virgin Mary

There is a lot to read here -- actually the best discussion of this issue that I have ever seen.

Please read the ENTIRE post before commenting -- many possible comments are already debunked due to languages -- Greek, Aramaic, etc.

Also explanations about the Mosaic law -- and the wording of certain phrases.

1 posted on 05/09/2010 8:29:20 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: All
May Devotion: Blessed Virgin Mary
The Virgin Mary as Our Lady of Grace

Since the 16th century Catholic piety has assigned entire months to special devotions. Toward the end of the eighteenth century a zealous Jesuit priest, Father Lalomia, started among the students of the Roman college of his Society the practice of dedicating May to Our Lady. The devotion, which others had promoted in a small way, soon spread to other Jesuit Colleges and to the entire Latin church and since that time it has been a regular feature of Catholic life.

INVOCATIONS

Thou who wast a virgin before thy delivery, pray for us. Hail Mary, etc.
Thou who wast a virgin in thy delivery, pray for us. Hail Mary, etc.
Thou who wast a virgin after thy delivery, pray for us. Hail Mary, etc.

My Mother, deliver me from mortal sin.
Hail Mary (three times).

Mother of love, of sorrow and of mercy, pray for us.

Remember, O Virgin Mother of God, when thou shalt stand before the face of the Lord, that thou speak favorable things in our behalf and that He may turn away His indignation from us.
Roman Missal

Thou art my Mother, O Virgin Mary: keep me safe lest I ever offend thy dear Son, and obtain for me the grace to please Him always and in all things.

FOR THE HELP OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

May we be assisted, we beseech Thee, 0 Lord, by the worshipful intercession of Thy glorious Mother, the ever-Virgin Mary; that we, who have been enriched by her perpetual blessings, may be delivered from all dangers, and through her loving kindness made to be of one heart and mind: who livest and reignest world without end. Amen.
Roman Missal

THE SALVE REGINA

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears! Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us; and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus! O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Roman Breviary

PRAYER TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

O blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay thee thy just dues of praise and thanksgiving, thou who by the wondrous assent of thy will didst rescue a fallen world? What songs of praise can our weak human nature recite in thy honor, since it is by thy intervention alone that it has found
the way to restoration? Accept, then, such poor thanks as we have here to offer, though they be unequal to thy merits; and, receiving our vows, obtain by thy prayers the remission of our offenses. Carry thou our prayers within the sanctuary of the heavenly audience, and bring forth from it the antidote of our reconciliation. May the sins we bring before Almighty God through thee, become pardonable through thee; may what we ask for with sure confidence, through thee be granted. Take our offering, grant us our requests, obtain pardon for what we fear, for thou art the sole hope of sinners. Through thee we hope for the remission of our sins, and in thee, 0 blessed Lady, is our hope of reward. Holy Mary, succour the miserable, help the fainthearted, comfort the sorrowful, pray for thy people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God; may all who keep thy holy commemoration feel now thy help and protection. Be thou ever ready to assist us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it thy continual care to pray for the people of God, thou who, blessed by God, didst merit to bear the Redeemer of the world, who liveth and reigneth, world without end. Amen.
Saint Augustine

PETITION TO MARY

Most holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, to thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the queen of the universe, the advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners, I who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse this day. I venerate thee, great queen, and I thank thee for the many graces thou hast bestowed upon me even unto this day; in particular for having delivered me from the hell which I have so often deserved by my sins. I love thee, most dear Lady; and for the love I bear thee, I promise to serve thee willingly for ever and to do what I can to make thee loved by others also. I place in thee all my hopes for salvation; accept me as thy servant and shelter me under thy mantle, thou who art the Mother of mercy. And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the strength to overcome them until death. From thee I implore a true love for Jesus Christ. Through thee I hope to die a holy death. My dear Mother, by the love thou bearest to Almighty God, I pray thee to assist me always, but most of all at the last moment of my life. Forsake me not then, until thou shalt see me safe in heaven, there to bless thee and sing of thy mercies through all eternity. Such is my hope. Amen.
Saint Alphonsus Liguori

Blessed Virgin Mary Magnificat Prayer
My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit finds joy in God my savior,
For he has looked upon his servant in her lowliness; all ages to come shall call me blessed.
God who is mighty has done great things for me,
holy is his name; His mercy is from age to age on those who fear him. He has shown might with his arm; he has confused the proud in their inmost thoughts. He has deposed the mighty from their thrones and raised the lowly to high places. The hungry he has given every good thing, while the rich he has sent empty away. He has upheld Israel his servant, ever mindful of his mercy; Even as he promised our fathers, promised Abraham and his descendants forever.
(Lk 1:46-55) 

Seen above is the Blessed Virgin Mary, portrayed as Our Lady of Perpetual Help.
It was she who was chosen by God, to provide His Son with His Sacred Humanity.
She did so in humble and total cooperation with the Holy Spirit and the Divine will of the Holy Trinity; providing God's Son with the Blood He shed for us on the Cross.

TO MARY, REFUGE OF SINNERS
Hail, most gracious Mother of mercy, hail, Mary, for whom we fondly yearn, through whom we obtain forgiveness! Who would not love thee? Thou art our light in uncertainty, our comfort in sorrow, our solace in the time of trial, our refuge from every peril and temptation. Thou art our sure hope of salvation, second only to thy only-begotten Son; blessed are they who love thee, our Lady! Incline, I beseech thee, thy ears of pity to the entreaties of this thy servant, a miserable sinner; dissipate the darkness of my sins by the bright beams of thy holiness, in order that I may be acceptable in thy sight.

FOR THE GRACE OF LOVE
O Mary, my dear Mother, how much I love thee! And yet in reality how little! Thou dost teach me what I ought to know, for thou teachest me what Jesus is to me and what I ought to be for Jesus. Dearly beloved Mother, how close to God thou art, and how utterly filled with Him! In the measure that we know God, we remind ourselves of thee. Mother of God, obtain for me the grace of loving my Jesus; obtain for me the grace of loving thee!
Cardinal Merry del Val

TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY FOR MAY

O most august and blessed Virgin Mary! Holy Mother of God! glorious Queen of heaven and earth! powerful protectress of those who love thee, and unfailing advocate of all who invoke thee! look down, I beseech thee, from thy throne of glory on thy devoted child; accept the solemn offering I present thee of this month, specially dedicated to thee, and receive my ardent, humble desire, that by my love and fervor I could worthily honor thee, who, next to God, art deserving of all honor. Receive me, 0 Mother of Mercy, among thy best beloved children; extend to me thy maternal tenderness and solicitude; obtain for me a place in the Heart of Jesus, and a special share in the gifts of His grace. 0 deign, I beseech thee, to recognize my claims on thy protection, to watch over my spiritual and temporal interests, as well as those of all who are dear to me; to infuse into my soul the spirit of Christ, and to teach me thyself to become meek, humble, charitable, patient, and submissive to the will of God.

May my heart bum with the love of thy Divine Son, and of thee, His blessed Mother, not for a month alone, but for time and eternity; may I thirst for the promotion of His honor and thine, and contribute, as far as I can, to its extension. Receive me, 0 Mary, the refuge of sinners! Grant me a Mother's blessing and a Mother's care, now, and at the hour of my death. Amen.

TO OUR LADY

Saint John Vianney, better known as the Cure of Ars, when asked how long he had loved Mary, said: "I loved her almost before I could know her." In this prayer he expresses that love.
O thou most holy virgin Mary, who dost evermore stand before the most holy Trinity, and to whom it is granted at all times to pray for us to thy most beloved Son; pray for me in all my necessities; help me, combat for me, and obtain for me the pardon of all my sins. Help me especially at my last hour; and when I can no longer give any sign of the use of reason, then do thou encourage me, make the sign of the cross for me, and fight for me against the enemy. Make in my name a profession of faith; favor me with a testimony of my salvation, and never let me despair of the mercy of God. Help me to overthrow the wicked enemy. When I can no longer say: "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, I place my soul in your hands," do thou say it for me; when I can no longer hear human words of consolation, do thou comfort me. Leave me not before I have been judged; and if I have to expiate my sins in purgatory, oh! pray for me earnestly; and admonish my friends to procure for me a speedy enjoyment of the blessed sight of God. Lessen my sufferings, deliver me speedily, and lead my soul into heaven with thee: that, united with all the elect, I may there bless and praise my God and thee for all eternity. Amen.
Saint John Vianney

ACT OF REPARATION

O blessed Virgin, Mother of God, look down in mercy from heaven, where thou art enthroned as Queen, upon me, a miserable sinner, thine unworthy servant. Although I know full well my own unworthiness, yet in order to atone for the offenses that are done to thee by impious and blasphemous
tongues, from the depths of my heart I praise and extol thee as the purest, the fairest, the holiest creature of all God's handiwork. I bless thy holy name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever virgin, conceived without stain of sin, co-redemptrix of the human race. I bless the Eternal Father who chose thee in an especial way for His daughter; I bless the Word Incarnate who took upon Himself our nature in thy bosom and so made thee His Mother; I bless the Holy Spirit who took thee as His bride. All honor, praise and thanksgiving to the ever-blessed Trinity, who predestined thee and loved thee so exceedingly from all eternity as to exalt thee above all creatures to the most sublime heights. 0 Virgin, holy and merciful, obtain for all who offend thee the grace of repentance, and graciously accept this poor act of homage from me thy servant, obtaining likewise for me from thy divine Son the pardon and remission of all my sins. Amen.

Prayer Source: Prayer Book, The by Reverend John P. O'Connell, M.A., S.T.D. and Jex Martin, M.A., The Catholic Press, Inc., Chicago, Illinois, 1954

 

Memorare of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Blessed Virgin Mary

 

Remember O Most Gracious Virgin Mary!

That never was it known
That anyone who fled to thy protection,
Implored thy help or sought thy intercession
Was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto Thee!
O Virgin of virgins, My Mother!

To Thee I come before Thee I stand,
Sinful and Sorrowful,
Oh Mother of the Word Incarnate,
Despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy,
Hear and answer me.


Amen

May Devotion: Blessed Virgin Mary

Discovering Mary [Excellent New Book For Converts]
Beginning Our Lady's Month [Catholic Caucus]
Give it all to Mary [Catholic Caucus]
JESUS LIVING IN MARY: HANDBOOK, SPIRITUALITY OF ST. LOUIS DE MONTFORT, ROSARY [Ecumenical]
Mary, Tabernacle of the Lord By Archbishop Fulton Sheen(Catholic Caucus)

A Protestant Discovers Mary
Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom (Scriptures Agree With Catholic Church)
Hail Mary
Holy Water Silhouette (Virgin Mary -video))
How could Mary be the Mother of God?
Mary, the Mother of God (a defense)
Calling Mary “Mother of God” Tells Us Who Jesus Is
The Holy Spirit And Mary (Catholic Caucus)
Mary, Our Cause of Rejoicing
Mary in Byzantine Doctrine and Devotion (Catholic / Orthodox Caucus)

Radio Replies First Volume - Devotion to Mary
The Blessed Virgin Mary and the Catholic Discovery of America(Catholic Caucus)
Mary is the star that guides us to holiness, says Holy Father during Angelus [Catholic Caucus]
The Efficacy and Power of One Hail Mary [Ecumenical]
When Did Belief in the Virgin Birth Begin?
Mary, Motherhood, and the Home BY Archbishop Fulton Sheen
On Mary, Mother of Priests
Benedict reflects on Mary and the priesthood [Catholic Caucus]
Radio Replies First Volume - Mary
Scholar says Baptists neglect lessons from Virgin Mary

Mary and the Sword Continued Part #2 by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Mary and the Sword by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen(Catholic Caucus)
Why Did Mary Offer a Sin Offering? [Ecumenical]
Mary and Intercessory Prayer
Mary: Holy Mother
Mary not just for Catholics anymore
Pope concludes Month of Mary in the Vatican Gardens
Consecration to Mary(Catholic Caucus)
Mary’s Marching Orders
Praying the Hail Mary Like Never Before [Ecumenical]

Our Lady of the Most Blessed Sacrament [Catholic Caucus]
Catholic Caucus: The Catechism of St. Thomas Aquinas - THE HAIL MARY
Our Jewish Roots: The Immaculate Conception [Ecumenical]
The Blessed Virgin in the History of Christianity [Ecumenical]
Archbishop Sheen Today! -- Mary and the Moslems
Mary Immaculate: Patroness of the United States [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
"The Woman He Loved": Fulton Sheen and the Blessed Mother(Catholic Caucus)
September 12: The Most Holy Name of Mary and Militant Islam
Catholic Devotional: Feast of the Holy Name of Mary
A Homily on the Feast of the Most Holy Name of Mary
Catholic Caucus: Mary, The Power of Her Name [The Most Holy Name of the Blessed Virgin Mary]

2 posted on 05/09/2010 8:30:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: nickcarraway; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

3 posted on 05/09/2010 8:31:14 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All

"Never apologize for the

Blessed Virgin Mary!"

~~Mother Angelica


4 posted on 05/09/2010 8:32:38 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
 
Pray the Rosary. 
Pray without ceasing.

5 posted on 05/09/2010 8:33:46 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Thank-you for posting.


6 posted on 05/09/2010 8:35:10 PM PDT by Irisshlass
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To: Salvation; Irisshlass; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears! Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us; and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus! O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Roman Breviary


7 posted on 05/09/2010 8:36:50 PM PDT by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Irisshlass

You’re welcome — lots of good information here.


8 posted on 05/09/2010 8:37:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses
From a previous thread:

 
From the earliest of Church Councils (the Council of Rome, 993; defined by the Council of Trent) the distinction was made between worship and honor. Catholics believe that worship is due to God alone. Catholics honor those saints who have gone before us as a sign of faith and victory in living the Christian life.
 
And from another previous thread:
 
The truths about Mary are important because they are still truth, since they are based in the Bible. But they are not central to the primary gospel message of our salvation through Jesus Christ.

9 posted on 05/09/2010 8:37:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Of course you are free to your position my friend..but I humbly disagree. No offence.

http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2009/06/true-mary-of-nazareth-as-taught-in-holy.html


10 posted on 05/09/2010 8:38:05 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: Salvation
Queen of heaven

See the Book of Jeremiah for a definition:
Jer. 7:18; 44:17ff, 25
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11 posted on 05/09/2010 8:42:10 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Salvation

I see..You work hard for the LORD. You are tireless little bee helping His Kingdom. :)


12 posted on 05/09/2010 8:42:54 PM PDT by Irisshlass
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Did you read the article?

Luther, Calvin, Zwingli all agree with the perpetual virgin issue.

In fact they are quoted in the article.


13 posted on 05/09/2010 8:43:22 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
And here are some other FR threads on the subject!

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
The Protestant Reformers on the Virgin Mary
Zwingli’s’ Mariology: On Mary “Full of Grace”

14 posted on 05/09/2010 8:43:53 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
Did you miss these in the article above?

Luther, true to Catholic tradition, wrote on the Virginity of Mary:
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
 
The French reformer John Calvin (1509-1564) also held that Mary was the Mother of God
It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor. ... Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God. (Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348, 35.)
On the perpetual virginity of Mary, "Calvin routinely brushes aside the difficulties sometimes raised from "first born" and "brothers of the Lord."" (O'Carroll, M., 1983, Theotokos, M Glazier, Inc.: Wilmington, DE, p. 94.)
 
On the perpetual virginity of Mary, Zwingli wrote,
I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)
In another place Zwingli professed
I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary ...; Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin. (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)
 
 
 
 

15 posted on 05/09/2010 8:49:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
Foundation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: Apologetics Without Apology
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: An Incomplete Picture
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: Dearly Beloved Catholic Brothers and Sisters

Being Catholic and Christian: Faith and Salvation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics:Being Catholic & Christian:Faith and Salvation-Authoriative
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Being Catholic & Christian: Apostolic Confessions of Faith
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Post-Apostolic Confessions of Faith
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: A Biblical Portrait
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: "Being Saved"
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Knowledge of Salvation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Faith and Works
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Process of Christian Initiation

The Church: A Biblical Portrait - A New Testament Apologetic

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Church: A Biblical Portrait - A New Testament Apologetic: Jesus Christ preached a Reign or Kingdom, the Kingdom of God (or of heaven).
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Jesus preached an end-times kingdom but one already existing on earth
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Jesus preached that the kingdom was primarily spiritual and internal but also visible and external.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Christ called and founded an exclusive, inner core group of twelve men called the "apostles."
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Christ committed His very mission to this twelve man inner core group, his Apostles, alone.
Christ gave to the Twelve, the Apostles, the power of ruling, teaching and sanctifying.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: This same church Christ willed to endure until the end of the world.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Marks of the Church, One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Labels Among Christians
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Genealogy of Christian Faith Communities, Roman Catholicism
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: American Christian Branches Among European Founded Churches
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Modes of Transmitting Authoritative Doctrine

The Church: A Biblical Portrait - A New Testament Apologetic

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Church: A Biblical Portrait - A New Testament Apologetic: Jesus Christ preached a Reign or Kingdom, the Kingdom of God (or of heaven).
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Jesus preached an end-times kingdom but one already existing on earth
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Jesus preached that the kingdom was primarily spiritual and internal but also visible and external.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Christ called and founded an exclusive, inner core group of twelve men called the "apostles."
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Christ committed His very mission to this twelve man inner core group, his Apostles, alone.
Christ gave to the Twelve, the Apostles, the power of ruling, teaching and sanctifying.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: This same church Christ willed to endure until the end of the world.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Marks of the Church, One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Labels Among Christians
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Genealogy of Christian Faith Communities, Roman Catholicism
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: American Christian Branches Among European Founded Churches
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Modes of Transmitting Authoritative Doctrine

Divine Revelation "By Letter" (2 Thes 2:15) The Bible

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Divine Revelation "By Letter" (2 Thess 2:15): The Bible
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Divine Revelation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Bible: Written Revelation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Hebrew Scriptures: Books of the Old Testament
Historical and Geographical Background for the Development of the Two Old Testament Canons
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Background Chart: Development of the Old Testament Canons
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Chronology of the Apostolic Age and the Development of the New Testament Canon
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Comparison of Terms for Disputed Books
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Inspiration of the Bible
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Hermeneutics: Understanding Revelation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Hermeneutics: Understanding Revelation: Literal Sense
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Hermeneutics: Literary Form and History of John 6:25-69
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Hermeneutics: Interpretation of John 6:25-69
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Hermeneutics: Fuller Sense (of Scripture)
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Hermeneutics: Typical Sense (of Scripture)
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Major Church Pronouncements on the Bible

Divine Revelation "By Word of Mouth" (2 Thess 2:15): Handing On

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Divine Revelation "By Word of Mouth" (2 Thess 2:15): Handing On
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Paradosis: Handing On Divine Revelation (Orally)
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Biblical Model for Handing On Truth and Refuting Error: Acts 15, The Council of Jerusalem
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Acts 15 Model: General or Ecumenical Councils of the Church Universal
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: General Councils of the Church, 49-870
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: General Councils of the Church, 1123-1545
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: General Councils of the Church, 1870-1962
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Apostolic Fathers of the Church
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Post-Apostolic Fathers of the Church
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Doctors of the Church
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Handing On Divine Revelation: Vatican Council II

Truth Handling and Teaching Authority

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Truth Handling and Teaching Authority
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Peter: A Biblical Portrait
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Matthew Chapter 16, Verse 18: The Primacy of Peter
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Charism of Truth Handling: Infallibility
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishop of Rome
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, First and Second Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, Third and Fourth Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, Third and Fourth Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, Seventh and Eighth Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, Ninth and Tenth Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, Eleventh and Twelfth Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, Thirteenth and Fourteenth Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Bishops of Rome: Popes, Nineteenth, Twentieth and Twenty-First Centuries
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Charism of Infallibility: The Magisterium, Vatican Council II, The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 25

The Sacraments: The Life of The Christian

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Sacraments: The Life of The Christian
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Sacraments: Opportunities of Grace
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Baptism: Initiation and Regeneration
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Sacraments: Opportunities of Grace: Reconciliation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: Confirmation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: The Eucharist: The Lord's Supper
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: Healing/Anointing of the Sick
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: Matrimony
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: [Holy] Orders

The Communion of Saints

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Communion of Saints
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Communion of Saints: A Biblical Portrait of Saint
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Communion of Saints: The Canon of Holiness
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Communion of Saints: The Role of the Saints
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Communion of Saints: The Intercession of the Saints: How Do Saints Hear Us
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Canonization of Saints: Current Canonization Process, Biblical Description of Miracles
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Images and Relics of the Saints. The Incorruptibles
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Communion of Saints: Praying to the Saints/Praying for the Dead

Mary the Mother of Jesus: Saint

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Mary the Mother of Jesus: Saint
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Mary: An Introduction
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin

16 posted on 05/09/2010 8:52:06 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses; Salvation

Mary saved my son once from going off a bridge. He was driving back to base from a weekend visit with us and was chased by two men that tried to shoot him, late at night early in the morning on a long bay bridge. Prior to this, after he left home to return back to base, Mary appeared to me in my mind and kept clasping her hands together, so I knew she wanted me to pray. So I prayed and prayed till I fell asleep. The next morning my son called with the details and I became alarmed but then I remember praying and knew She saved him. I have other stories, but just wanted to say, She is always there, ahead of us, protecting us which I’m sure you know too.


17 posted on 05/09/2010 8:54:39 PM PDT by Irisshlass
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To: Irisshlass

Thanks for sharing that heartwarming story. Prayer works!


18 posted on 05/09/2010 8:56:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Luther, true to Catholic tradition, wrote on the Virginity of Mary: It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ...

Not surprising considering Brother Martin's Catholic upbringing, however Lutherans are not bound by his personal opinion that has no Scriptural warrant. Hence this personal belief never made it into the Lutheran Confessions. It is refreshing however, to see ML described in such a positive way by Catholics.

19 posted on 05/09/2010 9:03:22 PM PDT by xone
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To: Salvation

I just watched Jack van impe on the Miracle channel. He is Catholic friendly. He just showed a Catholic Prophecy about the last Pope who becomes a Judas. He says he will be validly elected. But will betray his calling. 3 Prophecies from St Francis, Fulton Sheen and Malachi Martin were sources Here’s St Francis Send
Them Not A True Pastor, But A Destroyer.”
—St. Francis of Assisi

View the scanned pages here:
Title Page Page 248 Page 249 Page 250

Shortly before he died, St. Francis of Assisi called together his followers and warned them of the coming troubles, saying:

“1. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

“2. The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

“3. Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

“4. There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

“5. Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

“6. Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. but the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head, [Christ] these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

“7. Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.”

(Except for breaking up the narrative into numbered paragraphs and adding bold print for emphasis, the prophecy is presented without any alteration, as given in the Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, Washbourne, 1882, pp. 248-250; as evidenced by the scanned pages linked to above.)


20 posted on 05/09/2010 9:09:37 PM PDT by johngrace
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To: Irisshlass

Praise Jesus and Haily Mary Indeed


21 posted on 05/09/2010 9:10:51 PM PDT by johngrace
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

Do you believe in that Christ came as Divinity as a human by being born of the Virgin Mary?


22 posted on 05/09/2010 9:20:47 PM PDT by johngrace
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To: narses

Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God, that we may be worthy of the promises of Christ.

This captures in a nutshell what we feel about Mary and what we ask of her.


23 posted on 05/09/2010 9:23:17 PM PDT by Melian (The two most common elements in the world are hydrogen and stupidity.)
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To: Salvation; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; ...

I still find this unmigated UNBiblical nonsense—to put it mildly and politely.


24 posted on 05/09/2010 9:27:10 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

Did you read yesterday’s thread with all the quotes from the Bible.

This thread, also, had many biblical quotes.

Thoroughly explained too. Did you read the entire post?


25 posted on 05/09/2010 9:33:32 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I won’t swear that I read every line.

I read a lot of them.

None of them were remotely convincing of the Roman Catholic et al position.


26 posted on 05/09/2010 9:39:24 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix; Salvation
Have you ever watched a kid open a really super-neat present... and all he wants to do is play with the box it came in???

The frustration here is comparable.

27 posted on 05/09/2010 9:42:46 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Salvation

St. Michael the archangel, defend us in battle. Be thou our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, o prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God cast into hell satan, and all the evil spirits which prowl about the world, seeking the ruin of souls.

Lord Jesus Christ, Risen Son of the Living God, please bless us this day and every day with Your Holy presence here. In Your Holy Name I pray, amen.


28 posted on 05/09/2010 9:45:12 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: roamer_1

True true.

Heading to bed.

Thx

Good night.

LUB


29 posted on 05/09/2010 9:45:23 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: xone; Salvation
[...] Lutherans are not bound by his personal opinion that has no Scriptural warrant. Hence this personal belief never made it into the Lutheran Confessions.

Or Zwingli, or Calvin, or Wesley, or any other, for that matter - It seems our FRiends have the false belief that tearing away at the Protestant founders will somehow cause Protestantism to fail.

We have long ago stepped off of the shoulders of our founders, and onto the sure Foundation, which is Christ.

30 posted on 05/09/2010 9:49:28 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Salvation

Bookmark.


31 posted on 05/09/2010 9:56:40 PM PDT by Sergio (If a tree fell on a mime in the forest, would he make a sound?)
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To: roamer_1

** It seems our FRiends have the false belief that tearing away at the Protestant founders will somehow cause Protestantism to fail.**

I’m going to turn this around

It seems our FRiends have the false belief that tearing away at the Catholic Church and her members will somehow cause Catholicism to fail.

Turnabout, fair play, no?


32 posted on 05/09/2010 10:06:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Judith Anne

What a pray. Truly anointed. POWERFUL!


33 posted on 05/09/2010 10:09:30 PM PDT by johngrace
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To: Salvation
Turnabout, fair play, no?

Sure, but it doesn't apply here.

No Protestant figures to convert anyone, nor tear down anything. We have no claim to power. The Father will do so in His own time.

It is written.

34 posted on 05/09/2010 10:10:45 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Judith Anne

Do You remember the Story behind the pray? Has to do with the end times. Was going to be just Hundred years.


35 posted on 05/09/2010 10:12:09 PM PDT by johngrace
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To: roamer_1

Not trying to convert anyone, just put out the Catholic facts, that’s all.

Thanks for chiming in.


36 posted on 05/09/2010 10:14:57 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Not trying to convert anyone, just put out the Catholic facts beliefs, that’s all.

There. Fixed.

Thanks for chiming in.

nP.

37 posted on 05/09/2010 10:19:12 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: roamer_1

Do you believe there are visions.


38 posted on 05/09/2010 10:35:37 PM PDT by johngrace
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To: johngrace
Do you believe there are visions.

Sure. More than most.

39 posted on 05/09/2010 10:41:33 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: roamer_1

Right now I am watching these end time teachers in a conference on ctn. How do you know the difference between a real vision from God or one from the enemy?


40 posted on 05/09/2010 10:47:43 PM PDT by johngrace
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To: roamer_1
Have you ever watched a kid open a really super-neat present... and all he wants to do is play with the box it came in???

By George, I thing he's got it!

As certainly as there is a God who loves us, and has great things in mind for His elect, there is a devil who hates us, and who will resort to amazing lengths to delude us. In his lust for the adoration only God deserves, demons sometimes put on a mask. Like the three physical guys who appeared to Joe Smith. Or, Satan and his ilk sometimes show up disguised as the most honored woman in history.

41 posted on 05/09/2010 11:51:20 PM PDT by RJR_fan (Christians need to reclaim and excel in the genre of science fiction.)
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To: johngrace
Sorry to be so late, I am coding right now and got pretty distracted.

How do you know the difference between a real vision from God or one from the enemy?

That is not so easy to say, so pardon me if this becomes lengthy:

Of course the normal means test applies for testing spirits:

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

e-sword: KJV

This is to guard against demonic forces ~ But it is not so easy. I don't think that the "uttering of the words" is the point. Unclean spirits have had millenia to perfect their approach. Many things may sound right, but are couched in traditions rather than truth.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

"Christ, come in the flesh," I think, is the whole of the revelation which came before, without additions... The Testimony of Jesus. I believe this to be the meaning of 1 John 4 5-6... Those of God KNOW Him, and know what He has already laid down (He has told us all things). What is outside of, or outright against that, is wrong, and to be avoided.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

True vision ALWAYS glorifies God, not any other thing. True vision normally comes with a sign, though that sign may not be understood for a long while.

But furthermore, as vision is within the subject-field of prophecy:

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

So even with signs and wonders, it is explicit that the vision must follow the character of God, be firmly planted on His Foundation, and have no discrepancy with the Word *at ALL*.

The Prophecy, IMO, seems to be one single thing, stretching through time. What we know are the pieces and sections which have already been revealed. What is spoken (seen) now must stand upon the revelations which came before, because it is a single, uniform script...

So we see what IS of God, and what is *not* of God. But that still leaves a big pile of in-between.

By far and away, the most common type of false vision is not exactly from the enemy - It is human vanity. It is extremely hard to detect, not only in a seer from the outside, but even from within the seer himself (as vanity blinds the eye to all but self). While vain visions usually have no lasting effect (no truth), they can deceive many and cause dysfunction.

That's about it, in general terms... I can be more specific once I know where you're going.

42 posted on 05/10/2010 12:47:06 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: RJR_fan
As certainly as there is a God who loves us, and has great things in mind for His elect, there is a devil who hates us, and who will resort to amazing lengths to delude us. In his lust for the adoration only God deserves, demons sometimes put on a mask. Like the three physical guys who appeared to Joe Smith. Or, Satan and his ilk sometimes show up disguised as the most honored woman in history.

Too true, IMHO... Thx for the reply.

43 posted on 05/10/2010 12:53:13 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Salvation

Amazing how FRoman Catholics will trot out Scripture when it suits their needs, but then hide behind tradition when it is more convienant.


44 posted on 05/10/2010 1:19:09 AM PDT by Gamecock (If you want Your Best Life Now, follow Osteen. If you want your best life forever, don't. JM)
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To: Gamecock

Lord Jesus Christ, Risen Son of the Living God, please bless us this day and every day with Your Holy presence here. In Your Holy Name I pray, amen.


45 posted on 05/10/2010 3:32:23 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: johngrace

Yes - the vision of Pope Leo XIII - we can surely see it unfolding now.


46 posted on 05/10/2010 4:33:32 AM PDT by PatriotGirl827 (Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a sinner)
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To: Salvation

Lord Jesus, save us
Blessed Mother, pray for us.

Amen


47 posted on 05/10/2010 4:42:24 AM PDT by TheStickman
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To: Salvation

Catholic tradition is NOT the same as scripture.
Mary was never sinless, she was just an obedient human.
Mary did not stay a virgin.
Mary cannot hear your prayers. They are wasted on her.

You are fools to elevate a sinful human to deity status. And yes, that is what you are doing.
Visions of Mary are not from God, but deceptions from satan.

Tradition means NOTHING. If its not in scripture, it didn’t happen.
Nowhere is scripture are we told to pray to dead saints.
They are not intercessors in prayer.
Scripture says to pray to God alone.

Seriously. I left the RCC over this Mary nonsense.


48 posted on 05/10/2010 4:47:02 AM PDT by Cyclops08
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To: Salvation

Yes, I did... but Luther held on to much Catholic teachings..He never made a true clear break from the Catholic church on some doctrinal issues. Reform Calvinism... is a heresy also. Your in good company ..No doubt but I would choose to have Holy Scripture define her. I am dogmatic on that. It was an interesting post. I was raise Irish Catholic were we did not exalt Mary as much as my Italian and Spanish Catholic friends did. I’ve learned alot more about her when i left the Catholic church. She was blessed of Almighty God indeed! But had other children and needed a Savior like you and me. Thanks for the post.


49 posted on 05/10/2010 4:47:59 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: Cyclops08
Seriously. I left the RCC over this Mary nonsense.

Since you brought it up, how did that come about?

50 posted on 05/10/2010 4:52:28 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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