Posted on 05/12/2010 3:16:33 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
What do you say to those who claim drinking is OK because Jesus drank wine?
You say, "I think you meant to add just a word or two to that sentence, like 'drinking can be OK' ... OK?" The statement "It's OK" may or may not carry in their mind a pattern of life that's healthy.
I would say some drinking is definitely not OK, like drinking to drunkenness. That's clear in the Bible. Another one that's not OK is drinking with a person who is manifestly having their conscience wounded and being tempted or drawn into something that they just spent six years trying through Teen Challenge and AA to get free from. And now you're drawing them right in to what killed them! And it kills millions of people in this culture. It's killing marriages, it's killing jobs. Alcohol is deadly in this culture.
Now I don't know how deadly it was in Jesus' culture. Drunkenness was real. Clearly the Bible condemns it. How real and deadly it was though, I don't know. I just know what I'm dealing with when I go to talk at Teen Challenge or when I pray with a man like I did after church last Sunday who said, "When I'm done here, I'm going out and getting drunk, because I'm done. I think I'm apostate, and I'm beyond help and forgiveness. And I've been through treatment so many times it's hopeless." I just know that is so prevalent. People that are cavalier about this thing called alcohol make no sense to me.
So, I'm just saying, "Add a word to that sentence."
Of course you can't defend teetotalism in any absolute way from the Bible. It's clear that wine is a blessing in the Bible.
If you make the choice, like me, that I'm going to be a teetotaler, it's just not based on the condemnation of the evil of wine. That's just not it at all! It's the context in which I live. It's my children and my grandchildren. It's my addictive personality. I can't even buy a pack of gum without going through it in an hour.
I sense a lot of young guys who don't want to be legalistic and want to spread their wings and know gospel freedom are just not very realistic about the world in which we live.
So that's a little warning. And I know the pushback would be real strong from a lot of people I admire greatly that I could easily fall into a trap of ruling out for everybody what God has given as a precious gift.
Christ would not do anything that is even REMOTELY or possibly sinful.
Drinking isn’t the sin. Drunkenness is.
They didn’t exactly have purified water two millenia ago.
Some Christians say that the “wine” referred to in the Bible was nothing more than Grape Juice, I disagree wholeheartedly. I think that when the Bible says wine it means wine.
Not only did He drink it, he made it.
Maybe so...but throughout dry counties in Bama...folks believe no drinking fixes all problems.
Drunkenness is just as much of a sin as gluttony(alot of Chistians forget that one).
And this article is frankly pretty lame. I think everyone who is for sin always makes the exception that being drunk is not acceptable.
I don’t know anybody who forgets to mention that.
You should talk to my wife’s Baptist parents who we literally have to hide alcohol from when they come because they will freak out that we are “sinning.” We just don’t want the confrontation. And I haven’t had a drink in weeks!
That was too easy. ;-0
Grape juice was a beverage that wasn't developed until some 1800 years later, by a guy named Welsh. Welsh, interestingly, was a recovering alcoholic and protestant minister.
Grape juice wouldn't have kept back in the time of Jesus. They had no refrigeration, no method of pasteurization and no ability to can. It was good ol' wine.
My SIL converted from Baptist to Catholic.
Now he drinks in public, LOL.
agh...anyone who is for drinking always makes the exception for drunkenness...goodness.
Amen to that.
It is just as bad....and one I am definitely guilty of.
Well, if drinking alcohol were intrinsically sinful, Paul could have never advised Timothy to “drink a little wine for his stomach,” as he did in one of his letters to his protege. Timothy wouldn’t have got a freebie for it being medicinal.
I could find many different Bible verses on the subject but basically it boils down to this:
If it causes you problems, the devil will use it to make you sin and it may become a wedge to drive you away from God. I personally drink beer and wine occasionally and have no problems at all with it. A person who can’t control themselves when they drink should abstain.
Matthew 5:27-30 for reference
What is WRONG is getting DRUNK!
You don't have to be a “Christian” to see that getting DRUNK isn't good for you. It kills brain cells and reduces civilized barriers in interaction.
I'm all about the Deities who make their own booze. You gotta respect that.
My daddy used to say “in moderation”. When I feel the effects, I stop.
Why do you always have to make sure you invite two Baptists on a fishing trip, instead of one?
Rom 14:2, I Cor. 16:12
Lastly - do all things as unto the Lord; don't cause your weaker brother to stumble by your behaviors and; don't let anyone put you back under the law.
I’ll gie an answer tae yer question eftir I finish mi wee dram.
Some Christians say that the “wine” referred to in the Bible was nothing more than Grape Juice, I disagree wholeheartedly. I think that when the Bible says wine it means wine.
Actually there are very legitimate pastors who know the original languages of the Bible and also know the common practices of the day (what they would be doing at these weddings) say that it definitely was freshly squeezed grape juice and not fermented. That was the best... and the miracle is that He produced more than anyone could have ever gotten from that process, normally ... and not only that it was originally ordinary water ... :-)
So, this is a legitimate teaching. I can get you a good reference to that from one particular pastor that I remember right now (it's part of a series of teachings on Jesus, and I would have to search for it to find it).
You need to examine the original language more carefully (we're reading "English" ... :-) ...). It's not something that you should dismiss without getting into a study of it ...
What did you think I was defending exactly? Binge drinking?
Not me. Dad joined AA a few years ago... I have some childhood memories I'd just as soon not have, thanks. I never acquired the habit of drunkenness; I was just arguing a point of doctrine.
Be not drunken with wine.A little wine is good for you. So I think feeling good is OK and being a slobbering drunkard is not.
I agree with the first post here. It’s the EXCESS of ‘strong drink’ that is where the sin begins.
Also, they didn’t have the luxury of products such as bottled water, coca-cola, instant coffee/tea, kool-aid, etc... that we enjoy now. Which is WHY they drank wine in those days..
I don’t drink any more myself. But the most uptight people who do not drink are the radical muslims.
I teach my kids moderation, not temperance.
I point out drunkenness and it's consequences wherever we see it.
If one does not have the discipline to enjoy in moderation then abstinence is an alternative.
I've not been drunk in 22 years.
Jail hangovers are the worst!
exactly. I think we are one of the few Presbyterian churches that don’t use grape juice exclusively in Communion since we actually are still very Reformed and conservative.
But, there is grape juice offered as well for those who can’t drink wine for conscience reasons, addiction etc.
Yes.
Like to see that reference!
Grape juice wouldn't have kept back in the time of Jesus. They had no refrigeration, no method of pasteurization and no ability to can. It was good ol' wine.
That was also part of the miracle, you see. It's not only that it was originally "water" -- but it's as you said, it couldn't be kept very long and if you had it, it was considered "the best stuff" ... as it's only kept for a short while and was considered very good.
So, to have so much of it, from all that water that Jesus had them bring -- that was a real miracle -- considering you couldn't keep it around to even have that much at one time in one place ... you see ... :-)
They DID have fully functional sex-organs; there is the thought that sex is ONLY for procreation in some portions of Christendom. How then does one explain Proverbs 5:19 (ESV), which says:
a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love.
“At all times” is certainly NOT “only when her cycle is in the conceptive/fertile phase.”
>>Not only did He drink it, he made it.<<
It was his VERY FIRST miracle.
Just as money is not the root of evil, but the LOVE OF money, drinking alcohol is not a sin, but getting drunk is.
The bible is actually pretty clear on all this stuff. It is mans teaching on it that can sometime lack clarity. ;)
If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off...or something to that effect. I take it to mean though that doesn’t mean everyone should cut off their right hand or get a haircut because their hands or their hair might potentially cause them to sin.
I don’t think you understand Piper’s stance or comprehend the article. He obviously didn’t say drinking was a sin.
>Maybe so...but throughout dry counties in Bama...folks believe no drinking fixes all problems.
...but I thought Obama would drive most anyone to drink...
“Why do you always have to make sure you invite two Baptists on a fishing trip, instead of one?”
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Because one will drink all your beer but two won’t drink any beer.
Like to see that reference!
It's an audio teaching series on all the theology that is taught about Jesus and who He is ... it's in both audio form and also as a PDF file, a teaching from David Hocking in a seminary level class ...
If you've ever heard of David Hocking, you'll know he's an excellent teacher. I will have to search this one out and it may take me until this evening ... but I'll get it ... :-)
I dunno what you are getting at. I assume married couples had lots of sex.
>>When I feel the effects, I stop.<<
Yep. Chug a 16 oz tumbler of Vodka and when you “feel it”, stop.
Just funnin’ ya. :)
Pentecostals have created an entire new realm of science to “prove” that the wine in the N.T. was grape juice. They devoted an entire section of it in their “Spirit Filled” (or Full Life) study bible. So much for literalism.
My audio is not quite what it audio be so the pdf will Probably Do Fine.
Yeah. Is it a sin to eat?
Christians who think wine was really grape juice need to understand just how fast grape juice spoils in hot Middle Eastern climates.
Yeah, but that was medical alcohol. He was still breaking federal law.
Oh, wait...
Hmmmm .... there seems to be more "conversion" going on here than merely from Baptist to Catholic ...
Or maybe just a typo ...
;'}
Alcohol is not the evil. Abuse is. Just like guns, cars,swords, prescription pills, illegal drugs, etc do not kill people, alcohol only kills as a result of abuse. Addiction is the problem. Trading addicitions does not xolve the problem it only changes the tool.
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