Posted on 05/13/2010 10:14:39 AM PDT by pastorbillrandles
We agree on that point!
interesting perspective...i’ll have to check it out further. thanks
Thank you Blasaster- i sure hope we can continue to talk scripture- I appreciate your manner
Thank you Pastor Bill and same to you...have a great and blessed weekend.
You will see what you want to see.
y’h’y. John. He actually DID fit the scripture for the messiah that was foretold, but let’s not allow facts to get in the way.
He was a Nazarite. He was a direct descendent of the House of David and the House of Aaron. He was of the priestly class. He came out of the wilderness to teach the Word of G-d. He was dressed in old fashioned garments. AND he was completely usurped by the transposition of his true place in history. And who did this?
The Romans. THEY created a messiah out of whole cloth a sum of every sect of Hebrews that existed at the time, to rob the Hebrews of their identity, and they have been doing it ever since.
They incorporated reincarnation AND resurrection, the Nazarite prohibition against marriage until their self-imposed vows were VOLUNTARILY lifted, (which then freed them to marry and reproduce,) and on and on. But you will not see it because in the end, it was Paul whose teachings held sway and Rome’s authorship of the NT which gave it gravitas...but not until several generations of Hebrews had passed away.
Paul was a self-loather, a cripple, a pedophile, and a homosexual. No one did more to promote Rome’s messiah than he did.
He perverted the ritual baptism which was originally a Hebrew custom and a direct order from G-d that if you are going to present yourself TO G-d, you must bathe first. Where do you think “cleanliness is next to godliness” comes from?
He used this to CREATE a new covenant by telling gentiles that they did not need to know OLD Scripture or ONE true G-d since they were BORN ibto a NEW covenant which did not exist. By this perversion of the LAW, he converted many heathens and gentiles into a false religion which overwhelmed Judaism.
ROME created the symbology associated with the crucifixion knowing full well that it was against every tenet of the Hebrews’ faith. Drinking of blood. Eating of human flesh. Torture. SUICIDE. And human sacrifice.
But woe was he, (Paul,) because Rome had no use and no respect for traitors, which he was, even if that betrayal was of his own who were their enemies. When he had served his purpose, they executed him...and used his death to perpetuate their own agenda.
Yes..I don’t deny what you said....
He is still *fallen*
I do Study G-d’s Cosmos and and his infinite universe.
If you say you have it all figured out..I say respectfully that’s a bit delusional.
Greetings Blaster.....
Let me try and clarify what I am trying to say....Where in the Holy Bible does it say how long the Messiah has to accomplish his mission on earth? Meaning if Jesus Christ returns and accomplishes what the entire world is waiting for at least Jews, Christians, maybe Muslims but I don’t know much about Islam, let alone what they want...However is Jesus does this, it would be all done in a span of 2000 yrs...So where is the timelime for completion from your understanding?
That would mean, by what you said..Is that G-d has created other *beings* in his image not just human beings...
Maybe...But there is no proof of that..
Doesn’t say that at all. It simply says that there is INTELLIGENT life throughout the universe, and if so, none could exist without the Creator.
Is not the true gift of G-d intelligence the ability to reason? MIND. The shell which houses it matters not. Do you imagine that G-d looks like a human man? If so, it is logical that “HE” also looks like a human female.
That is very chauvinistic and egocentric...which is the reason science has been mistaken on so many levels in their perceptions of the universe.
I imagine G-d in his being is female/male now can I imagine that? no not really, only in the area of the Mind can anyone of us envision G-d in our personal understanding as a Alpha and Omega infinite spirit.
I have heard G-d now being described as Dark Matter....
Again I see G-d through the lenses of Jesus Christ because of his knowledge of knowing him....
I know many people dispute the teachings of the Gnostic Gospels, but I am very intrigued on what Jesus said to Mary
and it is the Science I guess you could say about G-d.
The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene....
The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.
23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone.
24) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin.
27) That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root.
28) Then He continued and said, That is why you become sick and die, for you are deprived of the one who can heal you.
29) He who has a mind to understand, let him understand.
30) Matter gave birth to a passion that has no equal, which proceeded from something contrary to nature. Then there arises a disturbance in its whole body.
31) That is why I said to you, Be of good courage, and if you are discouraged be encouraged in the presence of the different forms of nature.
In some ways Science has reached some of the same conclusions....
It doesnt say how long the time will be, specifically. It is understood however that The Messiah will accomplish all His tasks at one showing. Otherwise, he will be considered a failed messiah. Some speculate that there is a time limit on when the Messiah must appear and that is the Jewish year 6000, which is 230 years from now.
But there is a long list of failed messiahs: Simon son of Joseph (c. 4 BCE) a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled. The messiah of Gabriel's Revelation.
Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE), leader of a rebellion with his four brothers against Archelaus and the Romans after proclaiming himself the Messiah[1]. He and his brothers were eventually defeated.
Jesus of Nazareth (ca. 4 BC - AD 30), in Galilee and the Roman province of Judea. Jews who believed him to be the Messiah were the first Christians. It is estimated that there are between 1.5 and 2 billion Christians in the world today[2], making Jesus of Nazareth the most widely followed Messiah claimant.
Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Bar Kokhba revolt
Moses of Crete (5th century)
Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).
Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)
David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.
Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)
Asher Kay (1502) a German near Venice.
David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).
Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).
Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Zvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)
Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi. Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
Mordecai Mokiakh ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)
Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.
Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century
Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.
Shukr Kuhayl I, 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
Judah ben Shalom (Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
Menachem Mendel Schneerson; a 20th century Rabbi and charismatic leader who is believed to be the Messiah by many of his adherents.
Simon bar Kokhba came closer than Jesus in accomplishing the Messianic tasks. He defeated the Romans and for 3 years restored Jewish control in Judea, including Jerusalem. The Roman empire did howerver send between one third and one half of it's entire army to Judea and laid seige to the fortified towns and weakened Bar Kokhba's army and then attacked it. An estimated 580,000 Jews were killed.
The only two Messianics claimants there expected to come back from the dead and become Messiah are Jesus and Rebbe Schneerson.
It is the overwhelming opinion in Judaism that failed Messiahs will not get a second chance or a do-over. Mainly because the bible never mentions a Messiah accomplishing some tasks and then coming back to finish the rest. Obviously Christians feel differently.
Apart from those reasons, Jesus is disqualified from Messiaship for a host of other reasons. He is not of the tribe of Judah. Both Matthew and Lukes genealogies are fatally flawed. Matthew has him coming from the line of a cursed King Jeconiah, whom no sons were ever permitted to sit on the throne of David and Luke has him coming from Nathan instead of Solomon. Furthermore, Chistians argue that Lukes account is of Mary (even though it doesnt say that) and tribal affiliation is NEVER through the mother. Only property and money can be transferred, not tribal affiliation.
Furthermore, Jesus is disqualified by Deut 13, Jesus said his return was to occur before those alive at the time died. That didnt occur which makes him a false prophet. The Christian apologetics on this topic simply dont hold water and fall flat.
Jesus also did not keep the commandments perfectly as alleged. Before the high priests, he told them he taught nothing in secret. But many times he taught his disciples things in secret and told them to tell no one! Keep it a secret! So, he lied.
He also, violated the commandment against dishonoring your father or mother. When in his group he said to his own mother, Woman...what do I have to do with you! That was sin. So, on many levels, he is simply not qualifed to be The Messiah.
Blaster,
Okay..So how long is the time you are speaking of?
Are you saying this?
A family (Jewish Orthodox I presume) have a son...Now he is the Messiah....Okay...Do the parents know he is? When does the Son know he is the Messiah? Does G-d give him a revelation about this when he is bar-mitzved at 13? or when does he know? Okay so now he knows he is the Messiah, how does he announce this revelation to the world? Does he do it in Israel? the USA? also we know the debacle with obtaining the birth records from Obama YIKES! How in the world is this coming Messiah going to prove his own lineage? In addition say this Son was born 10 yrs ago, he is only 10 yrs old...How many faithful Jews might die never knowing this 10 yr old was the Messiah? they will die never knowing this Messiah was born and on his way for accomplishment to do G-d’s will for the world.
Also how do you reconcile the facts on what Jesus Christ said would happen and are happening (Currently) about the end days before he returns to earth? DO you think the amount of Christians and Jews for that matter as well as Muslims think we are in the Last Days based on scripture
about the 2nd Coming of Christ...How did Jesus know that We are the Generation to see the Un-Veiling from the Book of Daniel come to fruition? when communication would go to and fro? How did Jesus know we would be the Generation to live like the ones in the *Days of Noah*?
There is much more I could say, but for now I hope you might be able to add some evidence on some of those things I brought up...
(Thank you for your replies! :)
Blaster,
Jesus did not dis-respect his Mother..huh?
I think this is what you mean...
Woman, behold your son: behold your mother (directed at Mary, the mother of Jesus, ... Then Jesus said, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do”.
2And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
How in the world is this coming Messiah going to prove his own lineage? In addition say this Son was born 10 yrs ago, he is only 10 yrs old...How many faithful Jews might die never knowing this 10 yr old was the Messiah? they will die never knowing this Messiah was born and on his way for accomplishment to do G-d’s will for the world.
Torah observant Jews have kept very good family records dating back to biblical times. Since the Messiah will be a biblical scholar, he will be suspected of being a candidate for Messiah early on. It is okay if people die without knowing him since there is the ressurection of the dead. I suspect he will most likely be an Israeli but he doesnt have to be. The recent example a Rabbi Menachem Scheerson, the Chabad Rabbi from New York is a good example. But he died without fullfilling the requirements! Some of his follwers think he may rise from the dead to be Messiah.
Jesus got a lot of his End Times quotes from Ezekiel, Isaiah and Daniel. So I dont really see anything super unusual about his words in that regard. I dont know if we are in the unveiling period of Daniel or not. Sure seems possible though.
Just remember, nobody can be the Messiah, unless, he fulfills ALL of the prophesied requirements. He may not be crowned King Messiah until then. It can only be a "post action" crowning, not a "promised action" crowning.
Thanks for the dialogue!
Many Jewish families today can trace their ancestry to known descendants of King David. For example, the so-called Sanhedrin in Israel has identified one by name it feels worthy to serve as King.
Since the Messiah will be a Torah scholar, the question of a 10-year old isn’t likely.
Since God promised that the House of David would never lack a royal heir, there has in every generation been a man qualified to be the Messiah if the world was ready.
I believe Cohen, but there are 12 tribes and not all of them are able to trace..Maybe the latest ones I think they found in India and Ethiopia that I have researched.
However my question was not that the Messiah would not be a Scholar in Torah but when he *himself* would know he is the Messiah?
My understanding from some of our Jewish Freepers awaiting for the Messiah..(Not Jesus Christ) stated he will be a Man born of human parents, and as I mentioned before his parents I assume cannot just be Jews by conversion nor marriage, nor 1 parent being Jewish as they would
*Both* have to be able to verify there lineages..correct?
Also they would have to be Orthodox, not Secular or Reform.
And will the Messiah’s parents for instance know he is the Messiah like when he is 10 yrs old?
Lastly when he will announce he is the Messiah? 18? 30? 60?
What is his timeline to complete requirements for Messiahship?
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