Posted on 05/21/2010 4:52:16 AM PDT by tcg
It is clear that the Pope would not desire a ‘hostile takeover’ of the Orthodox Churches, even if he was able to do it, which he is not.
I'm sorry to hear that you were badly treated by Rome. It doesn't surprise me though. Just look at what Rome has been doing for the last 40 years to its own Latin Catholics who want to use the old Latin missal. They have also been *thoroughly* mistreated....persecuted might even be an appropriate word just for wanting to use the traditional rite of their own Church's tradition. I don't know what exactly your experience was like with Rome, but the way that the Vatican has dealt with these types of issues in the past supports your complaint. The current Pope seems to want to clean up the shop a bit though so maybe things will change.
By the way, Communists and socialists have managed to infiltrate the Latin Church in less obvious ways. (Just last year a bishop designate was forced to resign for collaborating with the Communists behind the iron curtain). Socialists/Communists' influence has also thoroughly contaminated the Latin Church with the heresy of modernism, so the Orthodox aren't the only Church that is still suffering the scourge of communism. (N.B. Modernism is the belief that doctrines can change and evolve over time...kind of like our "living constitution". Latin Catholics have to watch out when they hear people talking about "living tradition". Its usually code word for Modernism.)
This is true. The Fourth Crusade is one of the most horrible disasters to befall Christendom in the last 1500 years and it should have never happened. Many seem to blame the Catholic Church/Pope for this disaster which doesn't seem entirely fair. Pope Innocent III had explicitly commanded the Crusade not to attack any of the Christian cities of the East under threat of excommunication.
However, IIRC, the Venetian bankers demanded a return on their investment in funding the expedition. The bankers conspired with the military leadership to attack even Catholic cities like Zara to loot their wealth as payment and funds for the expedition. The pope sent a letter excommunicating the crusade, but the papal bull was withheld from the knowledge of the army to prevent the breakup of the crusade. The pope also sent another excommunication letter if the crusader's attacked Constantinople but the crusade leadership/bankers were promised a huge sum of money by a rival claimant to the Byzantine throne, if the crusaders would make him Emperor. The army leadership once again concealed the excommunication threat, the crusaders took the bait and the rest is history.
Obviously, the unification of the East and West cannot be consummated while these perceived grievances command much of your attention. However, as Catholicism moves away from the hegemony of its Italian heritage and as more positions of leadership are assumed by Asians, South Americans and Africans, your grudges become increasingly irrelevant.Thus, as the Catholic Church becomes more universal/catholic, the Orthodox remain mired in their morass of nationalism. How sad
Just out of curiosity, which Sui Juris Church had you been part of, and when did the Latinizations take place -- soon after reunification or more recently?
“My mention of the Sack of Constantinople was to provide evidence that 800 years later, the Orthodox are still whining about this event”
Not so. I mentioned it as *a* factor that has *contributed* to the decline of Orthodoxy. The Muslim enslavement of the Balkans was a huge factor and the West’s assistance in that destruction for their own personal gain was also a factor. To ignore the historical background of a situation, regardless of how far back it goes, seems asinine to me.
Many Orthodox nations were enslaved until the 20th Century. The few who were able to free themselves from this yoke (many were simply murdered or removed from their traditional homeland by the Turks), were then attacked by Germany and finally the communists. Orthodoxy has been legally suppressed in its traditional ground for more than half a millennium. It’s like talking to a Turk about the Armenian Genocide.
Why is Orthodoxy weak? I added internal and external reasons. Deleting data and ignoring facts doesn’t seem like a particularly helpful exercise when determining the cause of something.
The Irish were persecuted by the Brits for over 300 years , yet the Catholic church in this country and Australia, controlled by Irish clergy, chose to downplay this salient fact. This downplay is much more efficacious than the Orthodox whine. Thus, It would behoove the Orthodox to reconsider its rants toward the Catholic Church relating to factors occurring many hundreds of years ago. These rants do not bring the desired results. Don't worry , the reconciliation with Catholicism which is truly dreaded by the Orthodox and smother its nationalism will not happen in your lifetime.
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