Skip to comments.Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Eschatology: The Last Things: Purgatory/Limbo
Posted on 05/21/2010 8:36:51 PM PDT by Salvation
This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.
This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:
The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.
Purgatory and Limbo
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 10:36 Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.
Heb. 4:12 - Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.
Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
Heb. 12:12 - the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.
James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.
James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
James 3:13 - James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.
James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.
James 5:6 - condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.
2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.
Rev. 1:4 the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.
Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.
Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.
Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.
Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.
Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.
Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.
Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:1 - the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.
Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.
Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.
2 Kings 2:1-13 Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.
2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.
Sirach and 2 Maccabees some Protestants argue these books are not inspired because the writers express uncertainty about their abilities. But sacred writers are often humble about their divinely inspired writings. See, for example, 1 Cor. 7:40 Paul says he thinks that he has the Spirit of God.
The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called Jamnia in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.
By your reasoning then the Quran is Inspired because it says to love Allah which “follows” Matthew 22:37. That’s ridiculous!
Take the books as a whole or reject them as a whole. My points still stand on why the Aprocrypha are rejected as Inspired Scripture. You disagree, which is your choice, but the consequences of your decision will also be on your head, not mine.
I have no fear of standing before God with my rejection of the Aprocrypha as not being inspired or HIS Word.
Also on spiritual matters I can take the Most Holy Scriptures but historical? How do we explain in Genesis the 7 days of the week as literal day or days? When the sun does not appear until the 3rd or 4th day. A day is rotation of the earth in 24hours spin which is 365 days around the sun. Since History is going back in time. This history seems in error. Just to point out. I admire you faith in our Redeemer but its still a belief. Of course a supernatural one at that. Just asking in His Name.
I hope you do stand means reverence not arrogance. A humble and contrite heart he will not ignore.
That's the only alternative.
If that was the case for you, then you are in an admirable position of being able to intercede for the rest of us by your prayers.
But that's not the way it is for me (of course, I am not in a position to speak for others and would not consider being so arrogant as to do so)
I find myself in a position to need the counsel of St. Paul as to how to deal with the flesh. Frankly, I need that counsel on a continual basis. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. (Galatians (RSV) 5) For, as with St Paul, 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. (Romans (RSV) 7).
I am not at the point described by the prophet Isaiah, 8 And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Holy Way; the unclean shall not pass over it, and fools shall not err therein. (Isaiah (RSV) 35) I am hardly any kind of a Pharisee that has no need of grace because of my own righteousness.
Rather, like St. Paul, 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. (Philippians (RSV) 3)
But back onto the topic, though, who is in heaven? The Letter to the Hebrews has the answer: 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews (RSV) 12)
Notice the wording in verse 23: the spirits of just men made perfect (τελειόω - teleioō -- a verb). (BTW, the specific verb was in the perfect tense -- i.e., in the past). Of course, that's talking about all Christians, right? Well, maybe all except St. Paul. He said in Phil 3.12 (above) that he wasn't perfect yet (Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect) but he was pressing on. In other words, he wasn't there yet.
And neither am I.
St. Paul spoke of this in the citation I gave earlier, 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1Corinthians (RSV) 3)
That wood, hay, straw are the unclean acts committed by the Christian after he was saved. As for how long it takes to do so (in an objective sense), who knows? 8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2Peter (RSV) 3) So I don't think it really matters one way or the other. It will happen.
You, frankly, can reject the concept all you want and it doesn't matter to me. It will happen whether you believe it now or not. It might be the horrible picture painted by Dante or it might be something else altogether. Frankly, both Scripture and Sacred Tradition are fairly blank about what they say, even if some Popes have tried to provide some definition in succeeding centuries. I,frankly, consider it to be a tremendous grace. And if you wish to reject that grace, it's OK by me.
Thank you for your contribution to this thread. It is always good to hear ALL sides in a debate. I am quite aware of why these “extra” books were not part of the accepted canon of the Bible and the greatest reasons are the ones you quoted. God does not contradict his words and he preserved his words for us so that they are our authority and measure of what is truth. He did not even need us to assist in this but chose to inspire the writers he did and continues to illuminate his word to our hearts to this day through his Spirit. Thank you again for your posts!
Okay then not a "place"...Yet this "state of being" entails a certain length of time, terrible suffering - according to certain Popes, grief, sorrow, torture like as Hell - but without actually having a physical body with which to experience it, and, if you were wearing a brown scapula during your earth years, Mary can "spring" you early, on Saturdays, only. I've read this stuff from your very own posted docs...I did not make them up. So who did?
May God Bless Your Heart! I truly believe in Jesus. But what makes you think that he told Moses. I believe it could happen like being taken up with audio and visual as viewer. You know like Our Apostle John for The book of Revelation reads taken up vision. Why not Moses too? It sounds exciting! Which could explain why the Bible was written the way it was. Like why would he say day if its not like our day. It could mean something like we just don’t fully understand till later? You know notice the mystery of the beginning of genesis! Then notice the mystery telling of the end book.
I also stated the "no need for a place of purgation" in my earlier posts and it is obvious that the point was missed entirety. If you can take off the "Catholic" hat for just a few minutes, and allow the concept of what we are saying sink in, I think you may be able to understand the point. From Scripture we know that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin. We also know that:
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
So that when God looks at me, because of Christ, he sees his righteousness. So yes, these and many other verses, tell me that my redemption, my salvation, my justification, my sanctification, are NEVER based on my own righteousness because mine are nothing but filthy rags in comparison.
There is a HUGE difference in speaking about our lives in the "nasty here and now" and how we are to live in Christ for eternity in the "sweet by and by". Paul said in Philippians 1:21, "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." We are to live in our flesh and fight the spiritual battles that result from these two natures that we now have - a flesh and spirit - the natural man and the spiritual man. But this "natural" guy - this "flesh" ain't going with us to heaven - this mortal will put on immortality, this corruptible will cease and will be raised incorruptible. So how can there be a "stopping off point" for further cleansing? Why???
Here's a simple thought to ponder - I try to keep things as simple as I can - What 'body' would a soul indwell in order to suffer for their venial sins in purgatory if they were blown to bits in a nuclear war? Will they get a "loaner" and then their "real" glorified body once they make it into heaven? I am not trying to be cutesy - I don't do cutesy.
So I guess my question to you is, if don’t accept Genesis as historically factual, what is your take on Adam and Eve? Do you think they were a fairytale or an alagory used to illustrate some thing?
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No real flesh and blood. Perfect until the fall.
I just read it myself I am doing other things too.Also watching Sky Angel tv. Not what I wanted to convey. There are human beings in the flesh. The driving out from the garden. Its called the fall.
So essentially you accept Adam and Eve to be real or historically accurate people and not just a representation of something?
So at what point do you decide that Genesis went from fanciful to factual?
Oh, and I understand getting caught up in more then one thing and losing my gist. ( ;
I’ve got to get to bed, so if I don’t answer tonight, you’ll know why.
I am tired too. May He Bless and Guide You always - Have a Good sleep.
God has taught us about Purgatory through His Church and saints. Wearing a scapular does nothing for you if your soul is not properly open to God. Time references were used in regard to Purgatory because we are limited by human languages. How else can you describe it? We use words that make sense to us but are not properly descriptive because they are all we have. Prayer helps those in Purgatory. The suffering in Purgatory is necessary and oe doesn’t need a body to suffer.
I love john salza!