Skip to comments.Jesuit head of Asian Catholic news agency criticizes transubstantiation (Catholic Caucus)
Posted on 05/25/2010 11:49:50 AM PDT by Pyro7480
Stating that Catholics can become fanatical about one form of the Body of Christ in the bread of the Eucharist as the REAL presence of Christ, Father Michael Kelly, the Jesuit CEO of the Asian Catholic news agency UCA News, criticized the doctrine of transubstantiation in a May 24 column.
In his column-- a critique of the new, more accurate liturgical translations that reflect the content and dignity of the original Latin-- Father Kelly writes:
Regrettably, all too frequently, the only Presence focused on is Christs presence in the elements of bread and wine. Inadequately described as the change of the substance (not the accidents) of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, the mystery of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist carries the intellectual baggage of a physics no one accepts. Aristotelian physics makes such nice, however implausible and now unintelligible, distinctions. They are meaningless in the post-Newtonian world of quantum physics, which is the scientific context we live in today.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, on the other hand, teaches:
The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." (no. 1376)
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicculture.org ...
Just like 0bama: not even hiding his contempt for traditional values.
Aristotle’s philosophical distinction between substance and accident is timeless. Meanwhile, modern academia has become unintelligible.
I agree with him - transubstantiation is a completely illogical and silly dogma that reflects poorly on the world’s most rational faith (Christianity). It is an extra-Biblical tradition and, like most creations of men, only opens the faith up to prove their critics correct on something. Why put any value on superstitions and fantasies?
Thank you for your reasoned critique of a faith about which you know nothing. The beauty of the Church’s mysteries is beyond your little mind. Tell the guys at your Kingdom Hall about this.
Kingdom Hall??? What does that have to do with anything? FYI, I am NOT a Jehovah’s Witness, if that’s what you’re getting at, and I have three sons in Catholic School, so I may not be as completely ignorant as you think. As to the logic of it, I think it’s a doctrine that makes the entire faith look irrational with the notion that priests are performing a miracle that no one can see, touch, smell, or taste. As to the size of my mind, it’s at least big enough to know that bread stays bread, and that God doesn’t perform miracles on our demand. I still don’t know where you’re going with the Kingdom Hall comment...???
And I’m critiquing a DOCTRINE, not a faith.
Except for that Last Supper thingy where Jesus says "This IS My body, etc" and asks us to do this in memory of Him...
"This is my body which is given for you"
I have three sons in Catholic School, so I may not be as completely ignorant as you think. As to the logic of it, I think its a doctrine that makes the entire faith look irrational with the notion that priests are performing a miracle that no one can see, touch, smell, or taste.Why did you place your kids in the Catholic school system (do they believe in Transubstantiation?), if you don't believe in the source and summit of the faith. --CCC, #1324
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They used to excommunicate people for this, but too many in the hierarchy has been reluctant to exercise their legitimate power, save for the occasional excommunication of the women simulating ordination.
Another focus is important?
There is a shortage of beeswax.
It is pretty much the case that EVERY eucharistic miracle has occurred in situations where Faith in the true presence was lacking. And in every case it is heart muscle, from the region where the sinus node originates, blood type AB.
But for those of us who believe, it tastes like bread and wine. It was His desire that we be united in this way, who are we to disobey a direct order by the Saviour?
Having children in a Catholic school doesn’t mean what it used to. For the last 40 years there has been no guarantee that the Faith has been taught in any logical fashion.
In the case of the Eucharist, it is the blessing placed on the bread and wine that is ingested and becomes a part of your body through the miracle of FAITH. The words of blessing and thanksgiving are placed on the species and become a part of the faithful. It isn't just an “oh, remember when” moment. It is the blessing Christ pronounced over the bread and wine that became the bread of life. His words satisfied all hunger and longing for knowledge of God. It is the substance He chose to use as the sacred covenant between Himself and us (which, by the way, had He chosen liver and onions, I'd have choked it down). It is the visible touchstone with the Divine and made a part of us. It is totally dependent on being in complete charity with God the Father and the faith in the Lord Jesus, Christ.
We can bang on about whether it is or isn't necessary to think the substance of the bread and wine changes, but God's DNA is in everything and thereby (through one bread and one body and the cup of blessing which we bless) that He becomes united with our own DNA. Baptism of the Lord wasn't about cleansing Him of sin, it was about baptising the water which all flows into one sea and throughout the world. It waters the grain and the grapes and through our FAITH returns to us and we to our Maker.
That's what I think it is all about. Being one in the body of Christ through FAITH.
It took me well into adulthood to realize that authority can be abused as badly by corrupt, cowardly/slack under-exercise as by rigid, ham-handed over-exercise. But one would think a bishop, of all people, would know that.
Perhaps it is because the relevant bishops, whose job is such excommunication haven't the guts to do it.
I believe that noodle-spined, yellow-bellied bishops have been a problem in the East as well as the West.
Thank you both for your replies.
When you see Jesuit, Jesuit, Jesuit on the label, label, label.
You know there will be heresy, heresy, heresy on the table, table, table.
These goons are no longer cutting edge, they are boors.
I thought they were under the authority of their Superior General and not of the local Bishop.
Who have been excommunicated in the past 1900 or so years. As thngs are done today, the likes of Martin Luther and Cyril Lucaris would have continued in their errors unopposed and uncensured.
Who's to know? But do they still receive the Communion?
They can still go up and receive Communion,but every time they do so they commit another grave sin.
why is a guy named Kelley heading an Asian news service?
They couldn’t find any Asians?
Often foreigners lack an ear for the cultures they live in (and I say that despite living in Asia).
Look, it appears that, as ordained ministers of the Roman Catholic Church, they teach things that are contrary to Church teaching. My question was: why is the Church tolerating it? It seems that allowing them to contradict official teaching of the Church would be counterporductive.
Whether they are in danger spiritually is another matter. I am not Catholic "enough" and can't discuss issues of faith on a "Catholic Caucus" thread, as per the Religion Forum rules.
Regrettably, all too frequently, the only Presence focused on is Christ's presence in the elements of bread and wine.
One wonders what other Presence he thinks we ought to be focusing on?
Rather a heterodox way of putting it, though: "Christ's presence in ... bread and wine" is impanation or consubstantiation, which are not permitted doctrines of the Real Presence.
Inadequately described as the change of the "substance" (not the "accidents\") of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ
Well, of course the explanation is "inadequate". There are no "adequate" explanations of mysteries.
the mystery of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist carries the intellectual baggage of a physics no one accepts. Aristotelian physics makes such nice, however implausible and now unintelligible, distinctions. They are meaningless in the post-Newtonian world of quantum physics, which is the scientific context we live in today.
This is what I found rather strange. Does this priest even know anything about quantum physics? Talk about a physics in which "what you see" isn't always "what you get" ... quantum physics goes even further and says even the attempt to "see" will change "what you get".
Indeed. “matter” is something problematical since the old idea of “solid” goes away as one gets into the subatomic world.
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What part of that does he not get?!
He probably thinks he’s the first person to think of this. Sorry, fella, there are no new errors, just the same old ones over and over again.
I'd go one step further... this guy considers himself more intelligent than Christ. Jesus didn't say this represents my body, but says, "This is my body and blood which is shed for you. Eat and drink in remembrance of me." What part of that does he not get?!Plain as the paper it's read on. Those that think the Passion of Christ was about Jesus staying on earth in full Body for 33 years, and then leaving us in the lurch for over 2,000, doesn't make for a very compassionate Christ. The fact Jesus Resurrected Himself surely tells us He can also place Himself in Bread and Wine. To further substantiate the power of the Eucharist, one only needs read about the lives of the saints. Unshakable souls in Christ, they all Loved and Lived through the Most Holy Eucharist, the True Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
I can tell you have a well rounded Catholic formation of faith. ; )
Can't say the same about the current state of some of the Jesuits out there.
It must cause Father Marquette great consternation.
Excellent! Point! I was thinking somthing along those lines, but being a total ignoramus on quantum physics (as in so many other areas!) I didn't know how to say it.
Very well said,dear sister!
I have been reading about the Life of Anne Cathrine Emmerich who was beautified in 1994 by Pope John Paul II- She was given the stigmata and survived on only Eucharist and water,nothing else. Her may prophecies about the future are very interesting