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Jesuit head of Asian Catholic news agency criticizes transubstantiation (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Culture ^ | 05/25/2010 | n/a

Posted on 05/25/2010 11:49:50 AM PDT by Pyro7480

Stating that “Catholics can become fanatical about one form of the Body of Christ in the bread of the Eucharist as the REAL presence of Christ,” Father Michael Kelly, the Jesuit CEO of the Asian Catholic news agency UCA News, criticized the doctrine of transubstantiation in a May 24 column.

In his column-- a critique of the new, more accurate liturgical translations that reflect the content and dignity of the original Latin-- Father Kelly writes:

Regrettably, all too frequently, the only Presence focused on is Christ’s presence in the elements of bread and wine. Inadequately described as the change of the “substance” (not the “accidents”) of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, the mystery of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist carries the intellectual baggage of a physics no one accepts. Aristotelian physics makes such nice, however implausible and now unintelligible, distinctions. They are meaningless in the post-Newtonian world of quantum physics, which is the scientific context we live in today.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, on the other hand, teaches:

The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." (no. 1376)

(Excerpt) Read more at catholicculture.org ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; eucharist; jesuit; transubstantiation
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See Dr. Mirus's commentary on this story at Attacking Transubstantiation
1 posted on 05/25/2010 11:49:50 AM PDT by Pyro7480
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; NYer; Salvation; american colleen; Desdemona; StAthanasiustheGreat; ..

Catholic ping!


2 posted on 05/25/2010 11:52:43 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
As the graduate of a Jesuit university, I believe it’s time the Pope disbanded the order.
3 posted on 05/25/2010 11:53:06 AM PDT by bwc2221
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To: Pyro7480

Just like 0bama: not even hiding his contempt for traditional values.


4 posted on 05/25/2010 11:58:23 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (GO ARMY - BEAT NAVY!)
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To: Pyro7480

Aristotle’s philosophical distinction between substance and accident is timeless. Meanwhile, modern academia has become unintelligible.


5 posted on 05/25/2010 11:59:32 AM PDT by blackpacific
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To: Pyro7480
No surprise here. Just one more Jesuit who considers himself to be more intelligent than the Vatican. These egotistical bastards who call themselves Catholic priests have been at this for centuries. It is past time for the Pope to not just suppress this order, as a Pope had done several hundred years ago, it is time to disband them.
6 posted on 05/25/2010 12:01:00 PM PDT by CdMGuy
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To: Pyro7480

I agree with him - transubstantiation is a completely illogical and silly dogma that reflects poorly on the world’s most rational faith (Christianity). It is an extra-Biblical tradition and, like most creations of men, only opens the faith up to prove their critics correct on something. Why put any value on superstitions and fantasies?


7 posted on 05/25/2010 12:03:21 PM PDT by nysuperdoodle
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To: nysuperdoodle

8 posted on 05/25/2010 12:11:40 PM PDT by notaliberal (It's the Constitution---- Stupid!)
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To: nysuperdoodle

Thank you for your reasoned critique of a faith about which you know nothing. The beauty of the Church’s mysteries is beyond your little mind. Tell the guys at your Kingdom Hall about this.


9 posted on 05/25/2010 12:11:52 PM PDT by steve8714 (The only private property the Feds value is intellectual property owned by their supporters in Holl.)
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To: nysuperdoodle
What is it that makes it so illogical and silly?
10 posted on 05/25/2010 12:13:21 PM PDT by CT-Freeper (www.ctf.org)
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To: steve8714

Kingdom Hall??? What does that have to do with anything? FYI, I am NOT a Jehovah’s Witness, if that’s what you’re getting at, and I have three sons in Catholic School, so I may not be as completely ignorant as you think. As to the logic of it, I think it’s a doctrine that makes the entire faith look irrational with the notion that priests are performing a miracle that no one can see, touch, smell, or taste. As to the size of my mind, it’s at least big enough to know that bread stays bread, and that God doesn’t perform miracles on our demand. I still don’t know where you’re going with the Kingdom Hall comment...???


11 posted on 05/25/2010 12:20:09 PM PDT by nysuperdoodle
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To: steve8714

And I’m critiquing a DOCTRINE, not a faith.


12 posted on 05/25/2010 12:22:14 PM PDT by nysuperdoodle
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To: nysuperdoodle
It is an extra-Biblical tradition...

Except for that Last Supper thingy where Jesus says "This IS My body, etc" and asks us to do this in memory of Him...

13 posted on 05/25/2010 12:24:21 PM PDT by kidd
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To: nysuperdoodle
It is an extra-Biblical tradition

"This is my body which is given for you"

Luke 22:19

14 posted on 05/25/2010 12:31:40 PM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who like to be called Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: nysuperdoodle
I have three sons in Catholic School, so I may not be as completely ignorant as you think. As to the logic of it, I think it’s a doctrine that makes the entire faith look irrational with the notion that priests are performing a miracle that no one can see, touch, smell, or taste.
Why did you place your kids in the Catholic school system (do they believe in Transubstantiation?), if you don't believe in the source and summit of the faith. --CCC, #1324
16 posted on 05/25/2010 12:35:14 PM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: bwc2221
As another graduate of a Jesuit university, I second the motion.

Lamh Foistenach Abu!
17 posted on 05/25/2010 12:35:42 PM PDT by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines, RVN '69 - St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle!)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: nysuperdoodle; Religion Moderator

This is a Catholic Caucus thread. Please read the Religion Moderator’s guidelines on his profile.


19 posted on 05/25/2010 12:41:35 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
I have a question (and this is not criticism): Why are Jesuits, and indeed any Catholic order, or individuals, who teach things contrary to, or critical of the core beliefs of the Church not excommunicated?
20 posted on 05/25/2010 12:44:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50

They used to excommunicate people for this, but too many in the hierarchy has been reluctant to exercise their legitimate power, save for the occasional excommunication of the women simulating ordination.


21 posted on 05/25/2010 12:47:21 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: Pyro7480
Regrettably, all too frequently, the only Presence focused on is Christ’s presence in the elements of bread and wine.

Another focus is important?

24 posted on 05/25/2010 12:57:39 PM PDT by TheGeezer
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: kosta50

There is a shortage of beeswax.


26 posted on 05/25/2010 1:00:54 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: nysuperdoodle

It is pretty much the case that EVERY eucharistic miracle has occurred in situations where Faith in the true presence was lacking. And in every case it is heart muscle, from the region where the sinus node originates, blood type AB.

But for those of us who believe, it tastes like bread and wine. It was His desire that we be united in this way, who are we to disobey a direct order by the Saviour?

Having children in a Catholic school doesn’t mean what it used to. For the last 40 years there has been no guarantee that the Faith has been taught in any logical fashion.


27 posted on 05/25/2010 1:11:04 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: CT-Freeper
Transubstantiation was a difficult concept for me as a convert. I studied and meditated on it for 20 years, and for 30 years before my conversion, I honored communion “in memory of Him.” IM(EXTREMELY)HO, I have looked at “sacrifice” in atonement for sin from the beginning and worship in the form of a sacrifice from Abraham to through the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem. There was no magic to the blood of animals. There was no magic to splitting animals and walking through them — it was the sacred covenants represented by them. It was the blessing placed on them. The WORDS SPOKEN OVER THEM.

In the case of the Eucharist, it is the blessing placed on the bread and wine that is ingested and becomes a part of your body through the miracle of FAITH. The words of blessing and thanksgiving are placed on the species and become a part of the faithful. It isn't just an “oh, remember when” moment. It is the blessing Christ pronounced over the bread and wine that became the bread of life. His words satisfied all hunger and longing for knowledge of God. It is the substance He chose to use as the sacred covenant between Himself and us (which, by the way, had He chosen liver and onions, I'd have choked it down). It is the visible touchstone with the Divine and made a part of us. It is totally dependent on being in complete charity with God the Father and the faith in the Lord Jesus, Christ.

We can bang on about whether it is or isn't necessary to think the substance of the bread and wine changes, but God's DNA is in everything and thereby (through one bread and one body and the cup of blessing which we bless) that He becomes united with our own DNA. Baptism of the Lord wasn't about cleansing Him of sin, it was about baptising the water which all flows into one sea and throughout the world. It waters the grain and the grapes and through our FAITH returns to us and we to our Maker.

That's what I think it is all about. Being one in the body of Christ through FAITH.

28 posted on 05/25/2010 1:25:38 PM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: kosta50; Pyro7480
Reception of the Blessed Sacrament by unbelievers (even Catholic unbelievers) is forbidden by Church law. Scandalously --- literally scandalously --- our bishops, almost to a man, seemingly consider themselves above the neuralgic task of enforcing canon law.

It took me well into adulthood to realize that authority can be abused as badly by corrupt, cowardly/slack under-exercise as by rigid, ham-handed over-exercise. But one would think a bishop, of all people, would know that.

29 posted on 05/25/2010 2:31:39 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: kosta50
Why are they not excommunicated?

Perhaps it is because the relevant bishops, whose job is such excommunication haven't the guts to do it.

I believe that noodle-spined, yellow-bellied bishops have been a problem in the East as well as the West.

30 posted on 05/25/2010 2:37:24 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Pyro7480

Thank you both for your replies.


31 posted on 05/25/2010 3:29:26 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: Pyro7480

When you see Jesuit, Jesuit, Jesuit on the label, label, label.

You know there will be heresy, heresy, heresy on the table, table, table.

These goons are no longer cutting edge, they are boors.


32 posted on 05/25/2010 3:33:53 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I thought they were under the authority of their Superior General and not of the local Bishop.


33 posted on 05/25/2010 3:37:29 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
I believe that noodle-spined, yellow-bellied bishops have been a problem in the East as well as the West

Who have been excommunicated in the past 1900 or so years. As thngs are done today, the likes of Martin Luther and Cyril Lucaris would have continued in their errors unopposed and uncensured.

34 posted on 05/25/2010 3:45:11 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50
Actually their own actions excommunicate themselves.
35 posted on 05/25/2010 3:46:43 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free, Free Republic.com baby.)
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To: mware
Actually their own actions excommunicate themselves

Who's to know? But do they still receive the Communion?

36 posted on 05/25/2010 3:49:56 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50
If they are practicing Catholic they know. They know and God knows.

They can still go up and receive Communion,but every time they do so they commit another grave sin.

37 posted on 05/25/2010 4:50:54 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free, Free Republic.com baby.)
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To: mware

BS


38 posted on 05/25/2010 4:54:22 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a tea party descendant - steeped in the Constitutional legacy handed down by the Founders)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea
Not sure if you are Catholic or not but to not believe in transubstantiation is an act of heresy.
39 posted on 05/25/2010 4:59:19 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free, Free Republic.com baby.)
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To: Pyro7480

why is a guy named Kelley heading an Asian news service?

They couldn’t find any Asians?

Often foreigners lack an ear for the cultures they live in (and I say that despite living in Asia).


40 posted on 05/25/2010 5:25:14 PM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: mware
They can still go up and receive Communion,but every time they do so they commit another grave sin

Look, it appears that, as ordained ministers of the Roman Catholic Church, they teach things that are contrary to Church teaching. My question was: why is the Church tolerating it? It seems that allowing them to contradict official teaching of the Church would be counterporductive.

Whether they are in danger spiritually is another matter. I am not Catholic "enough" and can't discuss issues of faith on a "Catholic Caucus" thread, as per the Religion Forum rules.

41 posted on 05/25/2010 8:03:08 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: Pyro7480
Interesting ...

Regrettably, all too frequently, the only Presence focused on is Christ's presence in the elements of bread and wine.

One wonders what other Presence he thinks we ought to be focusing on?

Rather a heterodox way of putting it, though: "Christ's presence in ... bread and wine" is impanation or consubstantiation, which are not permitted doctrines of the Real Presence.

Inadequately described as the change of the "substance" (not the "accidents\") of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ

Well, of course the explanation is "inadequate". There are no "adequate" explanations of mysteries.

the mystery of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist carries the intellectual baggage of a physics no one accepts. Aristotelian physics makes such nice, however implausible and now unintelligible, distinctions. They are meaningless in the post-Newtonian world of quantum physics, which is the scientific context we live in today.

This is what I found rather strange. Does this priest even know anything about quantum physics? Talk about a physics in which "what you see" isn't always "what you get" ... quantum physics goes even further and says even the attempt to "see" will change "what you get".

42 posted on 05/25/2010 9:39:25 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion

Indeed. “matter” is something problematical since the old idea of “solid” goes away as one gets into the subatomic world.


43 posted on 05/25/2010 9:57:30 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Pyro7480; Irisshlass; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

44 posted on 05/25/2010 9:59:13 PM PDT by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: CdMGuy; mlizzy; Victoria Delsoul; Raquel; Tax-chick; NYer
I'd go one step further... this guy considers himself more intelligent than Christ. Jesus didn't say this represents my body, but says, "This is my body and blood which is shed for you. Eat and drink in remembrance of me."

What part of that does he not get?!

45 posted on 05/26/2010 3:28:14 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Where Liberty dwells, there is my Country. - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Northern Yankee

He probably thinks he’s the first person to think of this. Sorry, fella, there are no new errors, just the same old ones over and over again.


46 posted on 05/26/2010 5:03:43 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("Man. That is some weapons-grade stupid right there." ~ RichInOC)
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To: Northern Yankee
I'd go one step further... this guy considers himself more intelligent than Christ. Jesus didn't say this represents my body, but says, "This is my body and blood which is shed for you. Eat and drink in remembrance of me." What part of that does he not get?!
Plain as the paper it's read on. Those that think the Passion of Christ was about Jesus staying on earth in full Body for 33 years, and then leaving us in the lurch for over 2,000, doesn't make for a very compassionate Christ. The fact Jesus Resurrected Himself surely tells us He can also place Himself in Bread and Wine. To further substantiate the power of the Eucharist, one only needs read about the lives of the saints. Unshakable souls in Christ, they all Loved and Lived through the Most Holy Eucharist, the True Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
47 posted on 05/26/2010 5:20:14 AM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: mlizzy
Very well put.

I can tell you have a well rounded Catholic formation of faith. ; )

Can't say the same about the current state of some of the Jesuits out there.

It must cause Father Marquette great consternation.

48 posted on 05/26/2010 6:14:18 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Where Liberty dwells, there is my Country. - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Campion
"Does this priest even know anything about quantum physics? Talk about a physics in which "what you see" isn't always "what you get" ... quantum physics goes even further and says even the attempt to "see" will change "what you get"."

Excellent! Point! I was thinking somthing along those lines, but being a total ignoramus on quantum physics (as in so many other areas!) I didn't know how to say it.

49 posted on 05/26/2010 8:28:31 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: mlizzy
Plain as the paper it's read on. Those that think the Passion of Christ was about Jesus staying on earth in full Body for 33 years, and then leaving us in the lurch for over 2,000, doesn't make for a very compassionate Christ. The fact Jesus Resurrected Himself surely tells us He can also place Himself in Bread and Wine. To further substantiate the power of the Eucharist, one only needs read about the lives of the saints. Unshakable souls in Christ, they all Loved and Lived through the Most Holy Eucharist, the True Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Very well said,dear sister!

I have been reading about the Life of Anne Cathrine Emmerich who was beautified in 1994 by Pope John Paul II- She was given the stigmata and survived on only Eucharist and water,nothing else. Her may prophecies about the future are very interesting

50 posted on 05/26/2010 10:08:36 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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