Skip to comments.This may be a first! A Unitarian vs. Catholic debate
Posted on 05/29/2010 1:58:48 PM PDT by NYer
On my last "Open Line" radio show (Thursdays from 3:00-5:00 p.m. ET), I took a call from Ben, a pleasant and well-spoken Unitarian fellow who took the Catholic Church to task for its "divisiveness" on issues such as abortion and homosexuality. We had a friendly but animated 15-minute debate of his opinion. Take a listen and see what you think. (Click the picture to launch the audio.)
There’s a Seinfeld joke in here somewhere.
Ugh. I can’t stand Unitarians. At least the ones I’ve known. So smug, elitist, and self-righteous.
Unitarians are a joke. They shouldn’t be a church. Bunch of liberal morons.
The Church Of Anything Goes!
Unitarian Universalism seem have evolved to become Nihilism in religious form
Like Flip Wilson’s Church of What’s Happening Now.
A unitarian minister, a Catholic proest and a Jewish rabbi were having lunch and discussing when life begins.
The Catholic said "life begins at the moment of conception." The Unitarian said, "Well I believe that life begins when the fetus starts to take shape and form." The rabbi says, "Listen. Life begins when the dog dies and the kids go to college!"
Unitarians’ High Holy Day is the Sunday before any election. The next Sunday before an election, pick the nearest Unitarian church near you and you’ll notice the attendance is 4+ times its normal size. I’ve pondered attending that Sunday just to get an insight into their last minute election plans for their liberal candidates. They are also annoying drivers in foo foo cars with preachy little bumper stickers all over the place.
That t-shirt is a classic
In a Unitarian church I always feel like I am observing a throwback to paganism - a rather creepy feeling
All Hail Dag Hammarskjold!
What do you get when you cross a Unitarian with a Jehovah’s Witness?
Someone who comes and knocks on your door for no reason.
Why would I want or need to listen to a Unitarian on anything?
No, that would be the Latvian Orthodox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVMjJiTjgxU
A priest, a rabbi, and a Unitarian minister walk into a bar.
The bartender takes one look at them and says: “What is this? Some kind of a joke?!”
When the klan gets mad at a Unitarian, they burn a question mark on his lawn.
You said The world is going back to Paganism. Oh bright
Vision! I saw our dynasty in the bar of the House
Spill from their tumblers a libation to the Erinyes,
And Leavis with Lord Russell wreathed in flowers, heralded with flutes,
Leading white bulls to the cathedral of the solemn Muses
To pay where due the glory of their latest theorem.
Hestias fire in every flat, rekindled, burned before
The Lardergods. Unmarried daughters with obedient hands
Tended it. By the hearth the white-armd venerable mother
Domum servabat, lanam faciebat. Duly at the hour
Of sacrifice their brothers came, silent, corrected, grave
Before their elders; on their downy cheeks easily the blush
Arose (it is the mark of freemens children) as they trooped,
Gleaming with oil, demurely home from the palaestra or the dance.
Walk carefully, do not wake the envy of the happy gods,
Shun Hubris. The middle of the road, the middle sort of men,
Are best. Aidos surpasses gold. Reverence for the aged
Is wholesome as seasonable rain, and for a man to die
Defending the city in battle is a harmonious thing.
Thus with magistral hand the Puritan Sophrosune
Cooled and schooled and tempered our uneasy motions;
Heathendom came again, the circumspection and the holy fears . . .
You said it. Did you mean it? Oh inordinate liar, stop!
Or did you mean another kind of heathenry?
Think, then, that under heaven-roof the little disc of the earth,
Fortified Midgard, lies encircled by the ravening Worm.
Over its icy bastions faces of giant and troll
Look in, ready to invade it. The Wolf, admittedly, is bound;
But the bond will break, the Beast run free. The weary gods,
Scarred with old wounds, the one-eyed Odin, Tyr who has lost a hand,
Will limp to their stations for the last defence. Make it your hope
To be counted worthy on that day to stand beside them;
For the end of man is to partake of their defeat and die
His second, final death in good company. The stupid, strong
Unteachable monsters are certain to be victorious at last,
And every man of decent blood is on the losing side.
Take as your model the tall women will yellow hair in plaits
Who walked back into burning houses to die with men,
Or him who as the death spear entered into his vitals
Made critical comments on its workmanship and aim.
Are these the Pagans you spoke of? Know your betters and crouch, dogs;
You that have Vichy-water in your veins and worship the event,
Your goddess History (whom your fathers called the strumpet Fortune).
---C. S. Lewis
. . . sorry, couldn't help it! If the Unitarians actually WERE pagans, they would be the better for it.
Good for the Unitarians.
Given the attention the Catholics get from an average Protestant pastor, you’d think there would be a good debate on that going at every Protestant church every week. I guess chest beating about faithfullness to the scripture is easier when there is no opponent present.
ROTFL! As an 'empty nester', with four kids, I can enjoy that one!
Oh, my, does that ever nail it!
You can tell because everybody claims him for their own - Methodist, Anglican, Catholic . . . .
I like to think he would have become a Catholic in this day and age.
I agree, seeing the evolution of the Anglican Church. I haven't read a lot of C. S. Lewis, and I've never read any Chesterton. I'll have to remedy that.
Our second oldest son is struggling with his faith, because he's a really smart young man who questions everything, and looks for logic. He perceives the Church as just demanding, without providing for any questioning. I told him he SHOULD question, but look for the answers from folks who KNOW the answers, not folks who are just looking to tear the Church down. I told him I have a very simple faith, and don't look for validation among the intellectuals, though he might feel the need to do so, because everyone approaches faith in their own way, even within the bounds of the solid teachings of the Catholic faith.
Doesn't sound as if you've ever set foot in a Protestant church, annalex.
You're permitted to do so now, have been since 1965. You should try it sometime. You'll discover that Catholicism isn't even mentioned at all, it's irrelevant.
You're confused by the heated theological debate on FR.
There is no better argument for the faith for a young person who's feeling his intellectual oats. Because Lewis was as smart as they come -- he had triple Firsts (Honour Mods, Greats, and English) and taught at Oxford and later at Cambridge -- and yet writes so clearly and plainly.
I'll read it, then order a copy for our son.
Since I met my wife 18 years ago, and till her conversion three years ago, I visited one Protestant church or another nearly every Sunday with her.
There are some that indeed pay no attention to Catholicism. However, there are enough that preach against the Church with consistency. Degrees of silliness and hostility vary. I never heard a serious debate about Catholicism organized, even though there usually is no shortage of Bible studies and guest speakers on any other imaginable subject.
Not once during these 15 years did anyone attempt a serious scriptural debate with me or any other educated Catholic, even though I befriended several pastors and participated in Bible studies regularly. I noticed that when a passage in the scripture would come up that directly contradicts Protestantism and supports the Catholic Church, that would be quickly brushed aside with some general statement like “of course one canot really lose his salvation” or “of course Jesus did not really mean to say man can forgive sins on behalf of God”, or “of course bread is still bread”, etc. When I would comment that the Catholic Church takes these passages literally and has no difficulty explaining them, the reaction would be a polite shrugging of shoulders. I respect those on FR that give a robust debate a try. They are courageous people.
Unitarians are pretty inoffensive in my experience. Plenty of charming-verging-on-dotty WASPs driving 30 year old Volvos, plenty of hug-you-to-death hippies. Not particularly smug or elitist, and self-righteous only if you provoke them.
Beyond that, though, I find the whole UU thing endlessly fascinating — it’s a testament, really, to some people’s deep psychological need for church community and religious identity. Atheists who can’t escape their sentimental bonds to Sunday hymns and after-service coffee, that’s a big part, another big part people who have authentic Christian faith somewhere that nevertheless has been trumped by their liberal politics and moral relativism, with UU being the compromise position.
The irrelevancy of Catholicism as far as church service itself, and it is irrelevant because it's not the belief of the church, does not mean that there aren't interdenominational "accusations" of being Catholic-lite or what-have-you in other areas. I grew up going to a very old church that became Lutheran after having been Moravian and Dutch Reformed over centuries prior. Certain Baptists in particular were very pointed in their criticisms of people who attended that church as being Catholics by another name. I lived that one in a private school run by such Baptists and was told I was going to hell because of it, in front of my classmates by the teacher in charge of daily Bible study.
It just angered me, and I have a disdain for certain Baptists to this day because of such a cruel and pointless thing. My sister experienced it too, she ran from the room crying, ten years old. Much of my father's extended family are themselves Baptist, but not such a strident variety. You'd think Primitive Baptists by their very name would be more severe, and severe they are, to themselves. Christian charity and forgiveness in the world, though. I've learned any number of distinctions that no doubt confuse others coming from a different environment and a different religous background such as Catholicism.
So, I understand why you think as you do, but you're mistaken if you think Protestant churches spent any amount of time denouncing Catholicism from the pulpit. They don't. Out in the world, among competing beliefs, is where that arises, just as it does on Free Republic. Do you debate Protestant beliefs in the course of your mass? I strongly suspect not. Irrelevant again.
The Evil One wouldn't be trying to do his work unless there were still Belivers in the Teachings of Christ there - ( "there" being = on the Not My Side of the Tiber)
I have a tape of it being read aloud by Lewis. He has the most wonderful voice - very deep, very resonant - and the submerged Ulster brogue keeps surging up through the Oxbridge crust. Delightful to hear.
Oh, my, that must be wonderful to hear! I got a CD last Christmas of Dylan Thomas performing "A Child's Christmas in Wales". What a treat!
I attended, as a visitor, Protestant Churches that truly did not seem to care that I was Catholic. In fact, a psstor of that chruch, American Baptist, assisted in marrying us in my Catholic Church. His only comment was “Catholics are Christians too”.
Some, however, were very anti-Catholic. Which doesn’t mean there wasn’t something very attractive about them; I still miss some people I met there, and I would keep in touch better had we not moved away.
Just a fact of life.
The Mass has a fixed structure, and it is not designed for any polemical content. During Easter, there is a point in the extended rite for that great holiday where we pray for all Christians, and then for the Jews (that is the controversial one where we used to pray “for the perfidious Jews” whose blindness we ask God to heal), other non-Christian believers, and finally atheists.
A homily is supposed to link the scripture readings said during the Mass to events and concerns of the day. It is not supposed to be the central point of the Mass; it may be omitted altogether. It is rare but depending on the readings, the priest might find it fit to point out something that separates us from the Protestants. For example, if the reading concerns the Eucharist, the priest is likely to explain the doctrine of the Real Presence and the Transubstantiation, and in that context he might point out that that was the sticking point for the Reformation. But I never heard a homily that would have the debate with Protestantism its central point. However, I can easily soo how when the Reformation was raging on, many an anti-Protestant himily were said.