Is Sola Scriptura biblical? {Open)

www.cronos.com ^ | 31-May-2010 | Self Topic

[OneWingedShark]

So, is the Trinty three persons?
If not, then why would Jesus pray to the Father? Why would the Father say “This is my son, in whom I am well pleased”? How could the world exist without the Creator to sustain it during the days Jesus was dead and in the tomb? How could it be said that Jesus being in nature God didn’t consider equality with God to be grasped? {This ONLY makes sense if they are distinct; otherwise it would be like you saying that I’m trying to be equal with myself and, by definition, an object is always equal with itself.}

If so (that the Trinty are/is three persons) then:
Why is there only one God, as the ten Commandments prohibit [worship of] other gods?
Why does John say that the word was with God, and was God (that is being the same-thing)?
James 2:19 — “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.”

It is not something that I understand, metaphysically. I put no claim on it other than that I want to ask God about it when I see Him, face to face; as Paul said: “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” [1 Corinthians 13:12]

{The New Living Translation puts it this way:
Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.}

Perhaps, as I said before, the truth is that both are true: like light being a wave and a particle both.

[OneWingedShark]

>For 1500 years there was no SOLA scriptura.

Then explain Jesus’ responses to the Devil when He was tempted.

[papertyger]

So, is the Trinty three persons?

Yes, and we know this emphatically from Church Tradition with anecdotal evidence from Scripture.

[conservativegramma]

Protestants may seek, but they're incorrect.

Sigh. We're only 'incorrect' if Scripture is 'incorrect'. We follow SCRIPTURE. So basically you're calling God fallible. I'd be careful with that one.

They haven't restored anything, but they have deviated.

They have restored true faith in Christ as opposed to oh, I dunno - Mary Worship. And again you keep quoting the Magisterium (FALLIBLE MEN) rather than Scripture. Who's deviating again?

Christian Scripture did not exist for 1st century Christians,

More error. The Old Testament existed. The New Testament may not have been complete but much still existed:

Matthew (Written 35 A.D.)
Mark - 42 A.D.
Luke - 59 A.D.
John - 42 A.D.
1 & II Corinthians - 56 to 57 A.D.
Galatians - 53 A.D.
Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, Hebrews - 61 to 63 A.D.
Romans - 57 A.D.
1 & II Thessalonians - 50 to 51 A.D.
James - 40 to 41 A.D.
Acts, 1 Timothy, Titus - 63 A.D.
I, II & II John - 63 to 64 A.D.
I & II Peter - 64 to 66 A.D.
Jude - 66 to 67 A.D.
II Timothy -67 A.D.
Revelation - 95 A.D. - Even the LAST Book was well within the confines of the 1st century!

As far as 'being true to the faith as handed down in Tradition' correct - IN SO FAR AS TRADITION WAS CONSISTENT WITH SCRIPTURE! When it deviated - they were quick to confront and proclaim it error.

For 1500 years no one ever say any difference between Holy Tradition and Scripture....For 1500 years there was no SOLA.....

For 1500 years the Scriptures were kept away from the common man.

Proof Text:

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) proclaimed: "That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary." Look it up.

Pope Pius VII (1800-1823) - "It is evidence from experience, that the holy Scriptures, when circulated in the vulgar tongue, have, through the temerity of men, produced more harm than benefit."

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846) railed "against the publication, distribution, reading, and possession of books of the holy Scriptures translated into the vulgar tongue."

Pope Leo XII, in January 1850, condemned the Bible Societies and admitted the fact that the distribution of Scripture has "long been condemned by the holy chair."

Your church purposely kept the Scriptures away from ordinary people who couldn't read Greek or Latin. Nobody saw any differences because they were not allowed to read any Scripture outside of the clergy. I would remind you it was a clergyman - Martin Luther - who while studying the Book of Romans discovered the errors and then posted his 99 thesis on the Doors of Wittenberg. The Reformation itself is PROOF that Christ will not be mocked and he intervened and made sure His Word became available again to the common people, and by doing so, preserved His Church. The real one.

And then the reformatting came across and dragged millions of Christians away from Christ and into the realms of either heresy or increasing weirdness...blah blah blah

You mean like this?

[papertyger]

Then explain Jesus’ responses to the Devil when He was tempted.

The genuine authority of scripture has nothing to do with sola scriptura. Your question makes no sense.

[conservativegramma]

1. The Church teaches doctrines contrary to the NT?

Yeah they do, didn't you know?

2. Mary worship? No one worships Mary in The Church

Really?

SURE LOOKS LIKE IT TO ME!!!!!!!!!!

SURE SOUNDS LIKE IT ALSO: "In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God's plan, Mary is the 'woman' (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood, which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." (Pope John Paul II)

What CHRIST SAID: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Keep deluding yourself all you want - the evidence is as plain as day to the rest of us.

[OneWingedShark]

1. The Church teaches doctrines contrary to the NT? Ha -- name any example. On the contrary, the either/or approach of many Calvinistic groups are quite contrary to the NT That Mary was always a virgin is a Roman Catholic doctrine, yes?

Matthew 1:18-25 reads:
"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. THEN JOSEPH BEING RAISED FROM SLEEP DID AS THE ANGEL OF THE LORD HAD BIDDEN HIM, AND TOOK UNTO HIM HIS WIFE: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

Yeah, that "knew" is the sexual one. That means that Mary and Joseph had hot steamy savior's-earthly-parents-sex.

[mdmathis6]

Ever see pictures of the North Koreans bowing down to that statue of Kim...I used to think it was a kind of respect thing until I saw a special where an eye doctor had gone in to do surgery on over 1000 people. Everyone of them, after tha bandages came off screamed “Oh thank you great Leader Kim who gave us back our vision” Some of them were so boisterous about it I thought I was watching a holy roller service. One lady boasted that she would see to it that her children and her childrens’ children would always be reminded of the miracle the Geat Leader did for her eyes! It was sickening, and I realized then that NK has become one giant cult and that the pictured folks in front of the statue were actually worshiping and praying to it. Shades of the coming Image of the Beast that will actually be empowered by the false prophet to speak blasphemies.

Those folks in front of the Catholic statues weren’t necesarily praying to the statues, they were praying to the personages representing those statues...or at least to the mental/spiritual constructs these folks held of the personages representing those statues. To actually bow the head and knee even in veneration or respect of these things is blasphemous. Even the angels told folks they were visiting in the Bible not to bow; that angels were not God.

[OneWingedShark]

Then explain the other questions presented in my previous post.

[aruanan]

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

But, as others have pointed out, the construction doesn't say that he waited until after Jesus was born to have sex with her. It simply says that he didn't have sex with her up to the point of her delivering Jesus.

[papertyger]

The Reformation itself is PROOF that Christ will not be mocked and he intervened and made sure His Word became available again to the common people, and by doing so, preserved His Church. The real one.

Really? Which one is that?

[OneWingedShark]

What does the word “till” as in “until” mean?

To put it in Pascal programming terms:
while Born(Jesus) <> True do wait(Joseph);
Sex(Joseph, Marry);

This qualifies as a translation, no?

[mdmathis6]

I’ll bet the real Mary, having been a Jew and knowing her country’s history of how God had punished Israel for falling into idolatry, is very upset personally at being made an idol. I’m sure Christ is comforting her but her heart would have been rent in twain to see what Satan was doing to keep people from the truth and using her name and stylized statues of herself!

[conservativegramma]

Prove it!

Because each and every Epistle SAID SO. Example:

I Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth......

II Corinthians 1:1 - .....To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:...

Romans 1:7 - ......to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints...

Galatians 1:2 - ...........and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:

And on and on it goes. These books were LETTERS sent to the various churches by Paul, or Peter, etc. Unless you're going to call God a liar the burden of proof that they DID NOT HAVE THEM is on you.

More

[spunkets]

"It simply says that he didn't have sex with her up to the point of her delivering Jesus. "

Which makes no sense at all.

[conservativegramma]

Wow, that NK stuff is wild! And I agree 100% - bowing the head and the knees is blasphemous to anyone but Christ.

[conservativegramma]

The one you’re not a member of.

[conservativegramma]

I’ll bet the real Mary, having been a Jew and knowing her country’s history of how God had punished Israel for falling into idolatry, is very upset personally at being made an idol.

I've thought the same thing. I know I would be heartbroken if I were in her position. I have no doubt her tears are flowing as we speak.

[papertyger]

Yeah, that "knew" is the sexual one. That means that Mary and Joseph had hot steamy savior's-earthly-parents-sex.

So Michal, the wife of David had children after she died? Cf. 2Sam 6:23

[daniel1212]

Persistent appeals to the paper unity of Rome means nothing, and only avoids what the real issue is, which is not simply unity but unity with God and each other based upon truth. Cults display the unity you boast of, but unity based upon demonstrable conformity with Scripture, with God supernaturally attesting, rather than implicit trust in men who claim they are infallible, is far better. While of necessity this must allow, if not sanction division, it makes its degree of unity that much more qualitatively precious than the quantitative one based upon confidence in an self-proclaimed infallible office. It is only by the former that Jesus prayer can be realized to any degree, which is a goal not comprehensively realized.

As a result of the former method, those who hold to SS have most universally been foremost defenders of the foundational truths we both agree on, while combating cults which depend upon the RC method for unity and thus teach the most unScriptural errors. This defense includes defending the equality of the preexistent Son with the Father, being of the same substance and nature, and being worshipped and glorified with the Father, though like church fathers, they see the Son as obeying the Father, denoting an order within the Trinity. (1Cor. 11:25)

While evangelicals who hold to SS and its manner of normatively literal exegesis, from Southern and Fund. baptists to Assembles of God churches to Calvary chapels have most universally agreed on foundational truth as stated in the Nicene Creed, as well as the gospel of grace, disagreement in other things has overall been limited in degree and scope, while seldom substantially preventing a remarkable degree of practical unity.

However, as Rome has infallibly defined very little of the Bible, Catholics also have a great deal of liberty in interpreting the Bible, as "only a few interpretations will be excluded with certainty" "by the judgment of the magisterium, by the Church Fathers, or by the analogy of faith." (Akin) They just don't start a new church over them, while no amount of insufficient warrant or contradiction with Scripture may be allowed correct what Rome presumes to officially declare infallibly defined.

On the critical practical level, those in such SS type churches evidence far greater unity of the Spirit, in trans denominational ministry, colleges, media and evangelism, despite things they disagree on, based upon their faith in the gospel with brings about the new birth, with its foundational truths, and overall they evidence far more commitment and unity in foundational doctrines than their RC counterparts. Study the below carefully.

Evangelicals versus Catholics, from various formal studies, spanning 1992 to 2009 (see sources here) show, 73% (highest) of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly affirm that Christ was sinless on earth, with Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists being tied at 33%, and the lowest being among Episcopalians with just 28% 64% of those in Assemblies of God churches (versus only 9% of Catholics) strongly DISAGREE that if a person is generally good, or does enough good things for others they will earn a place in Heaven [salvation on the basis of merit]. 56% of Assemblies of God (versus 17% Catholics) Christians strongly DISAGREE that Satan is just a symbol of evil [rather than a real being]. Catholics and Mainline Protestants tend towards more belief in a more Distant God. Evangelical Protestants and Black Protestants tend towards belief in a more Authoritarian God. Among 7,441 Protestant pastors. Asked if they believed that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God: 87% of Methodists said no. 95% of Episcopalians said no. 82% of Presbyterians said NO. 67% of American Baptists said no Bible Reading: the highest was 75%, by those going to a Pentecostal/Foursquare church who reported they had read the Bible during the past week (besides at church), while the lowest was among Catholics at 23% Volunteer church work (during past 7 days): Assemblies of God were highest at 30%, with the lowest going to Catholics at 12%. Donating Money (during the last month): Church of Christ churches were the highest at 29%, with Catholics being the lowest at 12% American evangelicals gave four times as much, per person, to churches as did all other church donors in 2001. 88 percent of evangelicals and 73 percent of all Protestants donated to churches. By denomination, 61% of the those associated with an Assemblies of God church said they had shared their faith at least once during the past year, followed by 61% of those who attend a Pentecostal/Foursquare church, and ending 14% among Episcopalians and just 10% among Roman Catholics 39 percent of Catholics affirmed not attending church is a sin, versus 23 percent of Protestants. Weekly Church attendance: Evangelicals showed the highest participation of approx 60 percent (30% more than once a week). Catholics were at 45 percent (9% more than once a week), and Jews 15 percent. The highest percentage of those who strongly agree they have a personal responsibility to share their faith was found among believers in Pentecostal/Foursquare churches (73%) 81% of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly agree that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches , followed by 77% of Assemblies of God believers, and ending with 26% of Catholics and 22% of Episcopalians. 40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59% Committed Roman Catholics (church attendance weekly or almost) versus Non-R.C.: Abortion: 24% R.C. vs. 19% Non-R.C.; Sex between unmarried couples: 53% vs. 30%; Baby out of wedlock: 48% vs. 29%; Homosexual relations: 44% vs. 21%; Gambling: 67% vs. 40%; Divorce: 63 vs. 46% Catholics broke with their Church's teachings more than most other groups, with just six out of 10 Catholics affirming that God is "a person with whom people can have a relationship", and three in 10 describing God as an "impersonal force." Only 33% of Catholics strongly affirmed that Christ was sinless on earth 88% of Catholics believe that they can practice artificial means of birth control and still be considered good Catholics. 70 % of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus [it is, of His death], indicating they do not believe it is Jesus actual body and blood Only 30% of Catholics said believe they are really and truly receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

26 percent of Catholics polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivoval position on abortion Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants. 46 percent of Catholics who say they attend mass weekly accept Church teaching on abortion; 43 percent accept the all-male priesthood; and 30 percent see contraception as morally wrong. 31% of faithful Catholics (those who attend church weekly) say abortion should be legal either in "many" or in "all" cases. 73 percent of Catholics rejected Catholic teaching artificial methods of birth control. Only 20 percent strongly agreed with the Church teaching that only men may be ordained. 59% of all Catholic women of childbearing age practice contraception—a rate of usage statistically equivalent to that of the general population (60%). 66% of Catholics supported women's ordination to the priesthood, and 73% approved of the way John Paul II leads the church. 80% of Catholics believe it is possible to disagree with the pope on official positions on morality and still be a good Catholic. 77 % of Catholics polled "believe a person can be a good Catholic without going to Mass every Sunday, 65 percent believe good Catholics can divorce and remarry, and 53 percent believe Catholics can have abortions and remain in good standing. 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations, : 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never. 44 percent of the priests said "definitely" a homosexual subculture'--defined as a `definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary'--exists in their diocese or religious order 50 percent of Protestants affirmed gambling was a sin, versus 15 percent of Catholics; that getting drunk was a sin: 63 percent of Protestants, 28 percent of Catholics; gossip: 70 percent to 45 percent: homosexual activity or sex: 72 percent to 42 percent. 39 percent of Roman Catholics and 79 percent of born-again, evangelical or fundamentalist Americans affirm that homosexual behavior is sinful. 79 percent of American Jews, 58 percent of Catholics and 56 percent of mainline Protestants favor acceptance of homosexuality, versus 39 percent of members of historically black churches, 27 percent of Muslims and 26 percent of the evangelical Protestants. U.S. Evangelical Churches (17%), had the lowest percentage of souls aged 18-29, versus Unaffiliated (31%), Muslims (29%), Historically Black Churches (24%), Mormons (24%) and Other Faiths (24%). Mainline Churches had the greater percentage (23%) of souls 65 and older. 2% of Mainline Churches, 77% of Catholics and 53% of Evangelical Churches affirmed, "There is MORE than one true way to interpret the teachings of my religion." 50% of Evangelicals considered themselves Republican or leaned toward that party, 34% Democratic or leaned thereto; 9% Independents. 48% of Catholics considered themselves Democrats or leaned toward that party, 33% Republican or leaned thereto; 10% Independent. 88% of Evangelicals voted for Sen. McCain in 2008, compared to just 11% for Sen. Obama. 40% of evangelicals said it was because of the candidate’s position on moral issues. Only 9% of other voters listed that as their driving reason. Other significant reasons for evangelical voters included their candidate’s political experience (23%) and his character (15%). 37% of Catholics were registered as Democrats, 27% Republican, and 31% as Independents. 77 percent of Black Protestants said they vote Democratic, whether they attended weekly services or not. The 16 most Catholic states contain 24 of the most liberal cities. Excluding (Maryland 26th), predominately Roman Catholic states contain all but one (Seattle WA) of the 30 most liberal cities. Of states in which S. Baptists are the single largest denomination none (of the 30 cities) were found (the term “liberal: being defined according to individual contributions to PACs, election returns and the number of homosexual households: (See HERE for Table of casual Religio-Political relations. And HERE for Correlation between faith, ideology, politics, environment, money.)