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The Promise to Abraham
The Witness ^ | 1968 | Curtis Dickinson

Posted on 06/14/2010 3:28:41 PM PDT by Ken4TA

“Know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”

God made a promise to Abraham: “In thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed” (Gen.12:3). Later he repeated the promise, “because you have obeyed my voice” (Gen. 22:18).

What of this promise? Was it fulfilled? Or is it yet to be realized in some material sense? Gross confusion prevails. The tragic result is that Christians look for a fulfillment which will not come, because they look for the wrong kind of promise. People keep getting this original promise to Abraham mixed up with the Law given to Moses and with the land of Canaan in which the Israelites established a nation.

But the promise to Abraham had nothing to do with the law nor with national Israel. Paul explained, “For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of Faith” (Rom. 4:13). Three things are revealed here: 1) That the promise has nothing to do with the law; 2) That it does have to do with inheriting the world, and not a mere fraction of it, and 3) That it is through faith, and not through racial descent.

Jesus said that Abraham “rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad” (John 8:56, cf. 8:44). Obviously Abraham understood that the promise that he was to be the father of many nations and that all families should be blessed through him was a promise concerning Christ and the salvation he would purchase for believers. God was severe in teaching him the lesson, “in Isaac shall thy seed be called” (Gen. 21:12) because Isaac was the son of “promise”, the son born by a miracle of God in response to Abraham’s faith. Thus “it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed” (Rom. 9:8). Paul again explains, “know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham” (Gal. 3:7). It is plain that the promise is to Christians, and not to the fleshly descendants, the Ismaelites, and the many tribes and nations that descended from Abraham and rebelled against God. Nor does the promise have anything to do with modern Israel, a nation that is officially and thoroughly anti-christ. Paul declares, “Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He said not, and to seeds, as of many, but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ” (Gal. 3:16). The promise God made to Abraham had to do with Jesus Christ and the redemption He made for believers, so that all who believe on Him are blessed.

“And if you are Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise” (Gal. 3:29). The promise is a spiritual one, as demonstrated in Abraham himself. Scripture says of him: “he looked for the city which has the foundation, whose builder and maker is God” (Heb. 11:10). Of Abraham and the other patriarchs, the Bible says, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own. And if indeed they had been mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better country, that is a heavenly; wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for He has prepared for them a city” (Heb. 11:13–16).

The promise which Abraham has not yet received is that promise that he “should be heir of the world” (Rom. 4:13). This world is to be destroyed, as described by the apostle Peter, revealing that this earth is “stored up for fire, being reserved against the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men” (II Pet. 3:7). Then Peter adds, “But according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness” (II Pet. 3:13).

This is Abraham’s inheritance, the city with foundations laid, not by men’s hands, but by God, a heavenly city, the New Jerusalem. Christ is the “seed” of Abraham, and through Him all Christians are the children and seed of Abraham, and thus joint-heirs of the new creation. Thus the promise, yet to be realized by Abraham and all God’s children, is an eternal home for saints resurrected and made immortal, not the land of Palestine occupied by a certain few in the 20th century.

This has always been the hope of the true Israel, the children of God by faith. The apostle Paul preached the resurrection of the dead everywhere he went. He claimed to glory in only one thing, the gospel of Christ, which is the good news of Christ’s death and resurrection. For preaching this gospel he was persecuted by the Jews and finally imprisoned and sent in chains to Rome, where he declared, “because of the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain” (Acts 28:20). Paul is the inspired apostle who wrote emphatically that there is “one hope” (Eph. 4:4). This hope, held by Abraham and all believers of all time, is the hope of immortality in the new creation, after the present world has passed away.

WHAT THEN OF THE “LAND PROMISES”?

Indeed, there was a promise to Abraham concerning the land where he sojourned. “In that day (not the same day God made the original promise) Jehovah made a covenant with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the Euphrates” (Gen 15:18). This promise was completely fulfilled after the Israelites returned from Egypt. The book of Joshua describes the conquest of the land, and declares, “So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he swore to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein…There failed nothing of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass” (Joshua 21:43, 45). Under King David, the kingdom was expanded all the way to the river Euphrates (II Sam. 8:3). This is further verified in I Kings 4:23, 24.

The kingdom also embraced laws, generally known as the Mosaic Law, initiated in the ritual of circumcision. This law, called the Old Covenant, began at Mt. Sinai, and was finished at the cross, some 1400 years later. It included circumcision, the observation of certain days, feasts and ceremonial sacrifices, involving the slaying of animals for atonement of sins. All of this is done away in Christ, for He is the “end of the law.” In His death he became the final and complete sacrifice, paying the penalty for sin once and for all in his own death (Heb. 10:10, 14). Furthermore, the Old Covenant being fulfilled, there is now no racial barrier to the Kingdom of God. Ancestry or genealogy has nothing to do with redemption in Christ. By his death for sin Christ has brought all believers into the commonwealth, into His Kingdom (Eph. 2:12–19). “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. There can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for you are all one man in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s then are you Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise” (Gal. 3:27–29).

The earthly kingdom which was the glory of David and Solomon, and which their fleshly descendants have endeavored to restore to this day, was part of the national covenant made with Moses. They so trampled underfoot the laws of God that He sent their enemies to take them captive into Assyria and Babylon. Prophets foretold a return to Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the temple. All of this was fulfilled. A remnant of all the tribes returned to their homeland, and a great temple was built. But again they refused to walk in the faith exemplified by Abraham. “Jesus said unto them, if you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham” (John 8:39, cf., 40-56).

Instead of believing on Christ, as Abraham and Moses did, even before He appeared in the flesh, they rejected Him. Jesus then said, “The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matt. 21:43). Peter identifies the church as this nation: “you are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light” (I Pet. 2:9)

To the fleshly nation of Israel, Jesus said, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate” (Matt. 24:1–2), and in a few years his prophecy was fulfilled to the letter when the Roman armies demolished Jerusalem in 70 AD.

As Christians our hope is not hinged on a piece of temporal land nor a fickle and rebellious ethnic group. Our hope is not in this earth, which is to perish, nor in worldly governments — no, not in our own government nor some super government. Our hope is in the coming of Christ to judge the world, to deliver Christians out of it, to change our bodies to glorious ones like His own and plant us in the “new heavens and new earth wherein dwells righteousness.”

“Know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: abraham; israel; land; promise
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The promise to Abraham is not what most people think it is. Many, especially of millennial persuasion, think that it a promise fulfilled in the establishment of the modern nation of Israel. However, the Bible sure doesn't go along with that millennial thought.
1 posted on 06/14/2010 3:28:42 PM PDT by Ken4TA
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To: Ken4TA

If Israel is so unimportant then why is Christ return to earth in Israel? Why are the prophecies of Ezekiel focused on the land of Israel. Why is Israel the apple of God’s eye the chosen people?


2 posted on 06/14/2010 3:39:56 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Ken4TA

If a voice in your head tells you to kill your children, it’s probably not God speaking to you. Ask Andrea Yates...


3 posted on 06/14/2010 3:41:37 PM PDT by Lexington Green (By any means necessary....)
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To: Ken4TA

Israel had a special close relationship with God from the beginning.


4 posted on 06/14/2010 3:50:06 PM PDT by Ancient Drive (DRINK COFFEE! - Do Stupid Things Faster with More Energy!)
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To: Lexington Green
If Isaac had been a little older, say 13 or 14 there might have been a different outcome when it came to Abraham's sacrifice.
5 posted on 06/14/2010 4:05:32 PM PDT by Recon Dad ( Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things)
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To: guitarplayer1953
If Israel is so unimportant then why is Christ return to earth in Israel?

Who says it is in Israel? Source?

Why are the prophecies of Ezekiel focused on the land of Israel.

Maybe because Ezekiel was writing on the problems of that nation and making prophecies concerning what was shortly to happen to them?

Why is Israel the apple of God’s eye the chosen people?

Hmmm...depends upon what you mean by "Israel".

Do you deny what the thread article says?

6 posted on 06/14/2010 4:19:00 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA

Why don’t you just come right out and tell us what you are? Obviously, since you are so opposed to the millennial reign of Rev. 20, you must be an Amillennialist...of some flavor. The Preterist flavor, it appears.

Though I am Premillennialist, I am not of the Dispensationalist variety, so I agree with much of what you say about the promise of Abraham. However, your Preterism muddies the water on this point, and causes you to lose credibilty.


7 posted on 06/14/2010 4:19:06 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: Recon Dad

Isaac was 31. I don’t get your point.


8 posted on 06/14/2010 4:22:10 PM PDT by Migraine (Diversity is great... ...until it happens to YOU.)
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To: Ancient Drive
Israel had a special close relationship with God from the beginning.

Hmm...Israel was a long time after Abraham, and the promise to Abraham was not about a nation.

What about what the article has to say? Is it using the Scriptures it cites incorrectly?

9 posted on 06/14/2010 4:22:15 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Lexington Green
If a voice in your head tells you to kill your children, it’s probably not God speaking to you. Ask Andrea Yates...

What's that got to do with the article?

10 posted on 06/14/2010 4:23:39 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Recon Dad
If Isaac had been a little older, say 13 or 14 there might have been a different outcome when it came to Abraham's sacrifice.

Immaterial. Suposition doesn't cut it. God does what He wants, period.

11 posted on 06/14/2010 4:25:29 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: sasportas
Why don’t you just come right out and tell us what you are?

I'm just a Christian, not the only one, but just one of them. I'm also not a "Preterist", and while I agree with a lot of what "Amillennialists" bring out, I'm actually not quite in the "flavor." But you can call me a "conditionalist" of sorts :-)

Thanks for agreeing with much of what Curtis had to say in the article. He has a lot more to say...and I will post some of them in the future on this topic.

12 posted on 06/14/2010 4:30:54 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA

“Christian,” obviously, but why can’t you say what your eschatological position is? Or what Curtis’ position is?


13 posted on 06/14/2010 4:38:56 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: Ken4TA

It’s a joke...........Isaac.........teenager.......forget it.


14 posted on 06/14/2010 4:47:53 PM PDT by Recon Dad ( Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things)
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To: Ken4TA
Zechariah 00101 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. Zechariah 00194 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

It says here that upon the day of the Lord Christ shall return to Jerusalem which is in Israel.

We are in the church age at this present moment and then we will be in His millennial reign.

15 posted on 06/14/2010 5:08:38 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Ken4TA
The promise to Abraham is not what most people think it is. Many, especially of millennial persuasion, think that it a promise fulfilled in the establishment of the modern nation of Israel. However, the Bible sure doesn't go along with that millennial thought.

Please read Acts 1:

Jesus spent forty days with his disciples after the Resurection "speaking of things pertaining to the Kingdom of God".

After those forty days of teaching about the Kingdom of God, they came together and all of them had the same question:

Will you at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel?

Jesus did not rebuke them for asking it. He didn't say that they misunderstood him. He didn't say that he was finished with Israel. He didn't say the Church will be the new Israel.

He said that the time for the restoration of the kingdom to Israel was in the hands of his Father, but in the meantime he had some work and some travelling for them to do.

I'll take Jesus' word for it. How about you???

16 posted on 06/14/2010 5:18:33 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: sasportas
“Christian,” obviously, but why can’t you say what your eschatological position is? Or what Curtis’ position is?

I'm a Biblicalist, as is Curtis. We believe what the Bible has to tell us: the OT explained in the NT for the destiny of man. We believe that there is little value in believeing doctrines which are disconnected and unrelated to one another. They must contribute to and harmonize with the whole purpose of God and the destiny of the believer in order to have meaning. We are presently living in the end of the ages, waiting on Christ's return and our resurrection to eternal life - immortality. We believe that will happen at the time of God's choosing, not man's thoughts as to what must happen before the last day.

Eschatology, the end times, of one's individual life and the end of the world. Let me quote Curtis: "The popular doctrine of a “future millennial reign” over the present world affords endless opportunities to take daily events and label them as signs of millennial fulfillment. Satiated with sensational international crisis, the public eagerly clutches at every announcement in hopes that this it is! — that this latest event will herald a new day and tend the tension, the frustration, the failure and uncertainty. Such believers live for the future, and miss the joy and victory of the present reign of Christ."

I wholeheartedly agree with Curtis' statement above - which is just a small part of the next thread I'm almost ready to post. Many make too much out of too little when reading the prophecies of the OT. Prophecy: For every thought some make of it, there are just as many others who contradict it. But to win converts to futuristic schedules, it has to be sensationalized and full of suspense - maybe this one or that one is the antichrist; maybe this news item is a "sign" of the end time; maybe Gog and Magog are invading armies, etc. Ridiculous to the extreme. No, neither of us are of the "millennialistic" theory flavor.

17 posted on 06/14/2010 6:30:10 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA
Instead of believing on Christ, as Abraham and Moses

The moslems go you one better. They say that Abraham and Moses (and J*sus) believed in Mohammed "before he came" as well.

The supersession game sure is a lot of fun, ain't it? Trouble is when you start, you don't know where to stop.

18 posted on 06/14/2010 6:37:31 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Veyiqchu 'eleykha farah 'adummah temimah 'asher 'ein-bah mum, 'asher lo'-`alah `aleyha `ol.)
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To: Migraine; Recon Dad
Isaac was 31. I don’t get your point.

Actually, according to Jewish Tradition, he was 37.

19 posted on 06/14/2010 6:39:18 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Veyiqchu 'eleykha farah 'adummah temimah 'asher 'ein-bah mum, 'asher lo'-`alah `aleyha `ol.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

B’h my friend


20 posted on 06/14/2010 6:44:22 PM PDT by papabrody (AntiSemite Exterminator)
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To: guitarplayer1953
It says here that upon the day of the Lord Christ shall return to Jerusalem which is in Israel.

Why do you jump from 8:3 to 14:4? What is the context dealing with? Your conclusion is not very valid.

We are in the church age at this present moment and then we will be in His millennial reign.

Yes, one could say that this is the "church" age, i.e., the age of God's chosen people, the ones "called out for His purpose"! This is also the last age before Christ returns and raises all the dead, rapturing (if I may use that term) the righteous raised along with the righteous living at that time - then the judgment of the raised unrighteous and the punishment to be served: the second death in the lake of fire. I realize that you won't accept that, but that's what the Bible tells us - and I don't believe Jesus, Peter and Paul were lying about it.

21 posted on 06/14/2010 6:45:37 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Uncle Chip
Please read Acts 1:

I did and accept it as it stands! Word for word! Jesus did not rebuke them for asking it. He didn't say that they misunderstood him. He didn't say that he was finished with Israel. He didn't say the Church will be the new Israel.

Jesus didn't say many things on that occasion. He didn't say He was waiting for various signs and news articles to be written. He didn't say they had to wait for the "millennium" (of whatever flavor) for the Kingdom to come. Concerning Israel, well, he said that their kingdom would be taken away from them and given to a nation that had faith - the "called out ones" from among the populace, or the "church". That "kingdom" is God's Kingdom, or the Kingdom of Heaven.

I'll take Jesus' word for it. How about you???

I'll take Jesus' word for it also. How about you!!!

22 posted on 06/14/2010 6:55:48 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
While it is often imagined that Isaac was a small child upon their arrival at the setting of the altar, some traditional sources claim he was an adult. In Judaism, you are considered an adult at age 13. The Book of Genesis does not tell the age of Isaac at the time; the Talmudic sages teach that Isaac was thirty-seven, likely based on the next biblical story, which is of Sarah's death at 127 (she was ninety when Isaac was born). Bishop Ussher’s chronology would place Isaac at about 20 years of age.

Since I am a Christian I have been led to believe he was a child. I will further refer you to Rabbi Bob Alper (my favorite commedian)who I stole the joke from. Argue with the Rabbi. Shalom.

23 posted on 06/14/2010 7:00:16 PM PDT by Recon Dad ( Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things)
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To: Ken4TA
Why would I not accept it? What I won't accept is the pre tribulation rapture of the church.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;(including the USA) and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 00193 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 00194 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 00195 14:5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. 00196 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark: 00197 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall be light. 00198 14:8 And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 00199 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

24 posted on 06/14/2010 7:24:36 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Ken4TA

Perhaps, as a way of establishing a foundation on which to discuss the promise God made to Abraham, which of course would be unbreakable, one could ask a question of all. The question is this: Is the promise made to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 the same promise as that made to Eve in Genesis 3:15, albeit with greater detail? If some on this thread consider the two promises to be different, how are they materially different from each other? I do not see how any profitable discussion can go forward without resolving this simple but important question.


25 posted on 06/14/2010 7:40:58 PM PDT by Belteshazzar
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To: guitarplayer1953
What I won't accept is the pre tribulation rapture of the church.

Neither will I. As far as what you quoted Zec. 14, well, the context doesn't bode well if related to the end of this last age. It seems to have happened in the past. Since Jesus' time, there is to be no more sacrifice for sins, for He died once for all times. Likewise, there is no need for the celebration of festivals, etc., for the keeping of feast days in a religious sense is not a part of the Good News of salvation.

26 posted on 06/14/2010 7:57:56 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA

So we missed the day of the Lord?


27 posted on 06/14/2010 7:59:11 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Belteshazzar
If some on this thread consider the two promises to be different, how are they materially different from each other?

I'd say the promise made to Eve in Genesis 3:15 refers to Christ's coming. The promise made to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 advances the plan of God as pertains to Christ Jesus - and thusly, to our salvation through faith, just as the promise to Abraham was given by his faith that God was able to raise the dead.

28 posted on 06/14/2010 8:10:30 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: guitarplayer1953
So we missed the day of the Lord?

HUH? Explain, please. What day is that?

29 posted on 06/14/2010 8:12:34 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA
"It seems to have happened in the past."

The day of the Lord is the same as that great and terrible day when me will hid in the rock and the ground when men's hearts will melt. Yes Christ has done away with the sacrifice in this present age but the next age there will be memorial sacrifices unto God not for the covering of sin.

30 posted on 06/14/2010 8:18:46 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: guitarplayer1953
The day of the Lord is the same as that great and terrible day when me will hid in the rock and the ground when men's hearts will melt. Yes Christ has done away with the sacrifice in this present age but the next age there will be memorial sacrifices unto God not for the covering of sin.

Where in the Bible do you find another "age" to come after the Bible tells us that we are in the "end of the ages"? And, where do you find that there will be "memorial sacrifices unto God" in a "next age"? Let us all in on the secret!!!

31 posted on 06/14/2010 8:28:43 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA
One of the more difficult aspects of the Millennial Kingdom concerns passages which make plain that a sacrificial system will be active during the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. These sacrifices are both by Ezekiel in his famous passage concerning the Millennial Temple (Eze. 43:20, 26; 45:15, 17, 20), but also by four other prophets (Isa. 56:7; 66:20-23; Jer. 33:18; Zec. 14:16-21; Mal. 3:3-4)

Here is the Mal quote 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers ' soap: 00034 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 00035 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

32 posted on 06/14/2010 8:49:08 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Ken4TA

So, that means ...?

Are the two promises essentially the same promise or not, that is, the promise of a Savior who will undo the fall into sin? Or are they different in any way? It is important to establish this since this is where people begin to part ways theologically/biblically.


33 posted on 06/14/2010 9:31:11 PM PDT by Belteshazzar
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To: Ken4TA

LG is discounting scripture to begin with, as God’s voice told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.


34 posted on 06/14/2010 9:47:38 PM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (A "tea bagger"? Say it to my face. ><BCC>)
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To: Ken4TA
That "kingdom" is God's Kingdom, or the Kingdom of Heaven.

No it is not. It is the Kingdom OF ISRAEL that will be RESTORED AGAIN. That is the question that was asked and the question that was answered.

35 posted on 06/15/2010 4:26:23 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Ken4TA; guitarplayer1953
Where in the Bible do you find another "age" to come after the Bible tells us that we are in the "end of the ages"?

Matthew 12:32: " ... it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come".

and Ephesians 2:7: "That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace ...".

36 posted on 06/15/2010 4:55:05 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Ken4TA

The article says:

“In that day (not the same day God made the original promise) Jehovah made a covenant
with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto
the great river, the Euphrates” (Gen 15:18). This promise was completely fulfilled after
the Israelites returned from Egypt.

I pose the question. If the promise was “completely fulfilled”, then why is it that Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others, more than a thousand years after the covenant was made with Abraham and more than seven hundred years after Joshua entered the promised land, speak of the return of the house of Judah and Israel to their “land”. The author leaves out a critical time gap from 931 BC during the reign of Solomon when the Kingdom of Solomon was split into the two houses and the dispersal of the house of Israel in 721 AD, until 70 AD when the remaining predominantly house of Judah was dispersed from the land. The two houses lost the inheritance due to idolatrous practices and are now in the process of returning to the land inheritance a second time. That is what redemption is -— the return to the land inheritance. It also occurs during a Jubilee year. The beginning of the seventh day Shabbat (mellinium) of rest here on planet earth.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Jer 23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Blessings in your search for TRUTH


37 posted on 06/15/2010 9:48:12 AM PDT by Harrymehome
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To: guitarplayer1953
One of the more difficult aspects of the Millennial Kingdom concerns passages which make plain that a sacrificial system will be active during the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. These sacrifices are both by Ezekiel in his famous passage concerning the Millennial Temple (Eze. 43:20, 26; 45:15, 17, 20), but also by four other prophets (Isa. 56:7; 66:20-23; Jer. 33:18; Zec. 14:16-21; Mal. 3:3-4)

I know you won't be convinced by anything I say, but none of those verses you mentioned above say anything about sacrificial sacrifices during a future 1K years in a 1K Millennial Temple.

Here is the Mal quote 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers ' soap: 00034 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 00035 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

Again, you'll not be convinced by anything I may say, but this last attempt of yours, IMHO (and millions of others) these verses reference the first Advent of Christ and were conditional upon the acceptance of Him as the Christ. Yes, that is just one of a few interpretations that are aligned against millennial theories.

38 posted on 06/16/2010 1:17:52 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Uncle Chip
"That "kingdom" is God's Kingdom, or the Kingdom of Heaven."

No it is not. It is the Kingdom OF ISRAEL that will be RESTORED AGAIN. That is the question that was asked and the question that was answered.

Negative! When Jesus said that the Kingdom would be taken away from them and given to another nation, that other nation is the "ekklesia" - i.e, what one calls the church: which is not "national" but worldwide. Jesus never said that the nation of Israel would be restored as a "kingdom" on this earth in a future age. The "New Jerusalem" is the whole body of Christians which are the "bride of Christ" mentioned in the book of Revelation: and sometimes mentioned as Israel figuratively.

39 posted on 06/16/2010 1:44:20 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA
Where is Ezekiel temple?
40 posted on 06/16/2010 1:50:15 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Harrymehome
All that you say has been fulfilled. Remember, it was always "conditional" - do this and live, do this and I'll restore your nation, etc. Every promise made by God to man was always based upon conditions. Even the promises of Jesus to man were conditional when he was on earth. All of the Letters in the NT presented rewards that were conditioned upon something or other.
41 posted on 06/16/2010 1:50:23 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Where is Ezekiel temple?

You got me! I didn't know that he ever built one. If you meant the one he talked about, well, it's been destroyed or never built.

42 posted on 06/16/2010 1:52:30 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA
Here is your 1000 years.

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 00343 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 00344 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 00345 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 00346 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

43 posted on 06/16/2010 1:53:41 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Ken4TA
But the promise to Abraham had nothing to do with the law nor with national Israel. Paul explained ...

Thanks again for the Sunday School material ... this weeks lesson is on Replacement Theology and the theological errors that are possible when one interprets the OT, not on the basis of what the OT text says, but based on a NT understanding of the OT testament text.

44 posted on 06/16/2010 1:55:30 PM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: Ken4TA
So God told him to measure it and then just blew it off? It is the third temple the Millennial temple.
45 posted on 06/16/2010 1:56:38 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Ken4TA
Many, especially of millennial persuasion, think that it a promise fulfilled in the establishment of the modern nation of Israel.

Ah ... none of use "millennial" Christians think the promise was fulfilled with modern Israel. You have yet to construct anything but a strawman.

46 posted on 06/16/2010 1:57:25 PM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: Ken4TA
Let me quote Curtis: "The popular doctrine of a “future millennial reign” over the present world affords endless opportunities to take daily events and label them as signs of millennial fulfillment.

This Curtis fellow does not understand dispensational premillenialism at all, he is arguing against a non-existance position ... and so are you.

We view daily events that happen today as "the beginning of birth pangs" ... nothing more, not fulfillment of prophecy. Will those prophetic fulfillments come in the future? Yes they will ... we just see the stage being set for their fulfillment. Could be hundreds of years from now ... could be tomorrow.

47 posted on 06/16/2010 2:04:44 PM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: guitarplayer1953
So God told him to measure it and then just blew it off? It is the third temple the Millennial temple.

Negative. When did Ezekiel live and write? The answer: before the restoration of the second temple in Jerusalem. There is not "third temple" prophecied that I can see.

48 posted on 06/16/2010 2:58:14 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Rev. 20:1-3 is great. And I believe it. Christ Jesus bound Satan, per His statements in the Gospels. The "Beast" is not Satan. What I dread is when Satan is loosed for a little season - which could be quite a while in our way of thinking of time (whatever the time may be). This will be around the end of the thousands of years of Rev. 20.

Rev. 20:4-6 is also great. And I believe it. However, John wrote in symbols and OT imagery. While I don't believe anyone can actually say exactly what this part of the passage has to say, we can say that we do know what constitutes the first resurrection (see my post #24 on the thread "The Millennial Syndrome"). The "rest of the dead", along with the dead saints of the thousands of years, will be raised from the dead, the living translated and caught up with Christ, the unbelievers raised for judgment - the second death.

49 posted on 06/16/2010 3:20:52 PM PDT by Ken4TA
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To: dartuser
Thanks again for the Sunday School material ... this weeks lesson is on Replacement Theology and the theological errors that are possible when one interprets the OT, not on the basis of what the OT text says, but based on a NT understanding of the OT testament text.

You're very welcome! Sure hope you learn something from that lesson!

50 posted on 06/16/2010 3:23:28 PM PDT by Ken4TA
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