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The Millennial Syndrome
The Witness ^ | 1977 | Curtis Dickinson

Posted on 06/15/2010 3:57:42 PM PDT by Ken4TA

If the search for omens and signs of the future were any indication of true faith, ours would be the most Christian generation of all history. But Jesus said, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign” (Mt. 16:4).

The popular doctrine of a “future millennial reign” over the present world affords endless opportunities to take daily events and label them as signs of millennial fulfillment. Satiated with sensational international crisis, the public eagerly clutches at every announcement in hopes that this it is!—that this latest event will herald a new day and tend the tension, the frustration, the failure and uncertainty. Such believers live for the future, and miss the joy and victory of the present reign of Christ.

Scripture presents this world as a field of labor with the harvest at the coming of Christ and the end of the world. The Christian understands that the field is infested with thorns and choked with tares sown by the enemy, the devil. He must labor against difficulties, fight against enemies, feel the pain of weariness and tension and know the sorrow of failure because the world continues on in the way of Satan (I John 5:19). But he rejoices because his labor is not in vain in the Lord. He rejoices in each victory over the world, the flesh and the devil. He thinks not to receive his reward here, but looks to the end of the world and the day of harvest when all the enemies will be slain by the King and the faithful may live in “a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness” (II Peter 3:13). To the Christian the future means eternity and glory in the world to come.

The Millennialist focuses his attention on a period in between, a time soon to begin, but not yet; a time of peace and prosperity, but still bound by the limitations of this present world under the curse which came at the sin of Adam. He looks for a problem-free age of life in the present evil world. Though the sinners and rebels still thrive, it will be made tolerable by the physical presence of Jesus and the blessings of material rewards — all the things you always wanted but were denied. He looks to the future, but not far enough to the life of glory Christ promised — new life in a new creation free of unbelievers. The ardent millennialist lives on the edge of his seat, eagerly scanning the news to see if some new event might fit into his list of things supposed to happen near or at the expected millennium. The list includes the mark of the beast, the appearance of antichrist, the “great tribulation,” a new temple in Jerusalem, and the war of Armageddon, to name just a few. He rejects or overlooks the interpretation placed upon these prophecies by the apostles, which indicates that they have already been fulfilled. Much of the religious world is occupied with seeking for signs that these things are about to be fulfilled in our day.

The evasive hope of one-world peace underlies much of the social pressure against which the Christian faith struggles today. What is the source of our financial and national woes? Is it not the ambitious conspiracy of men who wish to give us a new and peaceful world by taking over our lives and remolding them to fit their dreams? They, too, look for a millennium, one which they think can be created by their own political and social processes. Well-meaning but drastically deluded church members think to please God by aiding them in their plan because they think it is God’s purpose to bring total peace and unity into this present world, the same promises made by international socialists. To bring about a world where all carnal desires may be satisfied and where there is no struggle against existing sin is Satan’s aim, not God’s.

A Stumbling Block. The preaching of an earthly kingdom of carnal satisfaction is the very opposite of the gospel Christ and the apostles preached. Christ presented man’s need as that which cannot be met by material things. While He healed, fed a few people, and taught us to share with the person who comes to us in need, He refused to encourage any seeking after the goods of the world. He offered no political solutions to world problems and denounced ambition for worldly equality and plenty. Instead, He challenged man to deny self, to give up worldly satisfaction, even to the forfeiting of goods, homes, loved ones, and life itself in order to gain life in the next world. He warned, “If any man come after me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and bother and sister, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:26). Christ certainly was not discouraging proper family relationships nor saying it is wrong to own a home or other things; but He was telling us that no one can follow Him who has his interest and mind focused on either people or things, all which are temporal and must come to and end in this world.

He said that one must even hate his own life also, which means that he must be ready to die and even prefer to die rather than to lose his fellowship with Christ and the hope of immortality. This is what it means to love the Lord with all of one’s life. The ultimate purpose of God is to have man in His own image in a new creation; that is, in a new earth — not this present one, but one “wherein dwells righteousness” — which will take the place of the present world that is said to be evil, under a curse and is to be destroyed at Christ’s coming (Gal. 1:4, Rom. 8:20, II Peter 3:7–13).

The idea of an earthly kingdom under Messiah was a Jewish tradition developed out of their refusal to accept the prophecies of Christ bringing salvation to all the nations. They hoped for a kingdom limited to their race, after the order of the kingdom of David and thought that when Messiah came He would throw out the Romans, enlarge the borders of Judea to encompass the territory held by Solomon, and give them prosperity and power over their enemies. They sought to make Christ an earthly King, but He refused (John 6:15). They then crucified Him, affirming, “We have no king but Caesar” (John 19:15).

It was only after the apostle Peter set forth the fact that the prophecy of one sitting on David’s throne was fulfilled by Christ, and that the pouring forth of the holy Spirit was proof of it (Acts 2:29–33) that they cried out on the Day of Pentecost, “What must we do?” No such earnest desire was ever expressed as long as they held hopes of an earthly rule by Messiah. The same alternative exists today. The person who lives in hopes, ever so zealously, for the day when peace reigns on the present earth, where man may live in full satisfaction of his carnal desires in this life — that person can hardly obey the word of Jesus given by Paul: “…seek the things that are above where Christ is…set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. For you died and your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col. 3:1–3). Therefore the world seeks to confuse the issue, to distort the meaning of the kingdom and present false hopes to the ignorant and to keep as many in the dark as possible. For this reason the preaching of false prophetic signs is popular with the world, but the presentation of the cross and its true meaning is as despised as ever.

Christian Duty. What of the Christian’s present duty toward his neighbor? No one argues against this duty, leastwise this writer. Certainly the person with his heart set on pleasing God cannot be indifferent to the cry of the fatherless child or the plea of the hungry and naked. It is just this fact, that the saint has his heart set on spiritual and eternal things rather than earthly, that enables him to turn loose of his hard-earned money to give to the church for the preaching of the gospel and to give alms for the needy. But such charity, giving to the needy who asks, has nothing to do with the welfare state, the robbing of the industrious to ease the way of the slothful and the destruction of just government by the foolish cries of the so-called underprivileged.

The man with his heart set on the true kingdom, which is not of this world, is quite willing to forego the satisfaction of power and pleasure, which the world’s possessions seem to guarantee, that the might help a fellow man. On the contrary, the panting after an earthly Utopia paves the way for all kinds of pressure groups trying to bring it about where they each may get their fair share. Their number is legion, more than anyone knows.

Christ’s Rule. Is there not, then, a millennium? None is mentioned in scripture, although there is mention in Revelation a reign of one thousand years. “Millennium” is derived from two Latin words, mille, meaning thousand and annum, meaning year; hence literally a thousand years. (By-the-way, the thousand years mentioned in Revelation is written in the plural, “thousands.” Thousands of what? Thousands of years! It is man that puts the “a” before it, and translates it as a thousand years, singular.) — But in Revelation twenty, in any case, the language is figurative or spiritual and not natural: Satan is bound with a “chain,” saints sit on thrones, Satan is a dragon, or a serpent, and the saints are all in one camp! The term “thousands” is also used figuratively. It denotes vastness and in some cases the total of whatever it is applied to (Deut. 1:10–11); Psa. 50:10). “The cattle on a thousand hills” are said to belong to the Lord, but so are all the cattle upon every hill! A thousand hills simply represents all the hills. “One day with the Lord is as a thousand years” (II Peter 3:9). All the years of time are as only a day to the Lord. The thousands of years of Revelation refers to the entire time of Christ’s present reign; that is, from the day He ascended to heaven to begin His rule over heaven and earth (Mt. 28:18) until the day He returns, destroys His enemies in judgment, and returns the Kingdom to the Father (I Cor. 15:28).

The thousands-of-years reign in Revelation tells us that as Christians in this world of tribulation and opposition we are, nevertheless, victorious. The victory is not physical nor political, as viewed from a carnal viewpoint, but the kind of victory mentioned by John: “This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith” (I John 5:4). Such a victory may be enjoyed even when we are suffering from physical losses, from illness or oppression. Even the Christian who is bed-ridden and denied the blessing of health may still be reigning with Christ in the spiritual sense. This is why Paul says that we are “made to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6).

According to Paul the present world travails and groans in pain and will do so until the coming of Christ and the transformation of all God’s sons into His own likeness. It is the Christian’s privilege and glory to be part of Christ’s kingdom, to suffer with Him now, but to be glorified with Him when He comes (Rom 8:22, 17). The apostle writes that we are not to be looking for signs of the fulfillment of carnal desires but rather that we should be “looking unto Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith, who for the joy that was set before He endured the cross, despising shame, and has sat down on the right hand of the throne of God” (Heb. 12:1–2).

The Psalmist wrote of Christ, “Rule thou in the midst of your enemies” (Psa. 110:2). Indeed he rules today in the face of tremendous opposition and wicked enemies who grow more bitter and vicious every day.

Paul explained that “the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink (things of an earthly kingdom) but righteousness, and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14:17). John instructs us to “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world” (I John 2:15).

Paul, divinely inspired, expressed the purpose of a Christian, “…in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal” (Titus 1:2).

The search for signs is a sickness, the Millennial Syndrome. It is cured when we renounce men’s traditions and believe that Christ is the fulfillment of the prophets and is now King of Kings and Lord of Lords.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; kingdom; millennial
"The apostle Peter set forth the fact that the prophecy of one sitting on David’s throne was fulfilled by Christ, and that the pouring forth of the holy Spirit was proof of it (Acts 2:29–33) that they cried out on the Day of Pentecost, “What must we do?” No such earnest desire was ever expressed as long as they held hopes of an earthly rule by Messiah. The same alternative exists today." (Curtis Dickinson) Can one deny this?
1 posted on 06/15/2010 3:57:43 PM PDT by Ken4TA
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To: Ken4TA

Interesting article. Bookmarked for later consideration. Thanks!


2 posted on 06/15/2010 4:19:13 PM PDT by cvq3842
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To: cvq3842

‘fed a few people, and taught us to share with the person who comes to us in need, He refused to encourage any seeking after the goods of the world. He offered no political solutions to world problems and denounced ambition for worldly equality and plenty. ————————

I couldn’t go any further..


3 posted on 06/15/2010 4:36:59 PM PDT by Freddd (CNN is down to Three Hundred Thousand viewers. But they worked for it.)
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To: Ken4TA
The preaching of an earthly kingdom of carnal satisfaction ...

You cannot be serious ...

4 posted on 06/15/2010 4:48:00 PM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: Ken4TA
We use articles like this in Sunday School to illustrate what happens when you ignore sound theological method.

Thanks for another teachable moment ...

5 posted on 06/15/2010 4:50:30 PM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: Ken4TA
By-the-way, the thousand years mentioned in Revelation is written in the plural, “thousands.” Thousands of what? Thousands of years! It is man that puts the “a” before it, and translates it as a thousand years, singular.

All first year Greek students ... your assignment is to write a 10 sentence paper describing why this is nonsense. Papers due tomorrow morning.

6 posted on 06/15/2010 5:06:46 PM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: Ken4TA
"Kingdom Now" drivel.

In order to have a legitimate Kingdom there must be the right to rule, which Jesus has; there must be a domain... ie, subjects, which Jesus has; and there must be an exercise of that rule, which Jesus is not doing. He currently sits at the Right Hand of God the Father, UNTIL His enemies are made a footstool for his feet. THEN he will come to earth and bring God's will to exercise His rule as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

If Jesus Christ reigned right now, His followers would actually follow Him and His enemies would not only fear Him, but would bow down and acknowledge Him as Lord, to the glory of God, The Father

7 posted on 06/15/2010 5:29:28 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Ken4TA

But what if Christ actually is going to return physically to this earth - as scripture indicates he will - and reign on earth for a thousand years? Rev. 20. What if the earthly millennial reign is the inheritance of the saints? and since the NT emphasizes faith so much, how vital it is to believe “right,” have you thought that you may be forfeiting your inheritance by your disbelief?


8 posted on 06/15/2010 5:31:35 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: Guyin4Os
I spent a few minutes surveying the site there. Lots of articles. This person denies the judgement of unbelievers, denies the immortality of the soul, denies the millenium ... generally has an approach to Scripture that emphasizes simple word studies and draws conclusions based upon that.

Unfortunately it is quite easy to abuse Bible search software. This site is recommended for research purposes only, contains lots of false doctrine.

9 posted on 06/15/2010 6:54:56 PM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: dartuser
You cannot be serious ...

But I am :-)

10 posted on 06/15/2010 7:53:15 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Freddd
"‘fed a few people, and taught us to share with the person who comes to us in need, He refused to encourage any seeking after the goods of the world. He offered no political solutions to world problems and denounced ambition for worldly equality and plenty. ————————"

I couldn’t go any further..

Then you've missed a lot of the message.

11 posted on 06/15/2010 7:54:42 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: cvq3842
Interesting article. Bookmarked for later consideration. Thanks!

You're very welcome.

12 posted on 06/15/2010 7:55:41 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: dartuser
We use articles like this in Sunday School to illustrate what happens when you ignore sound theological method.
Thanks for another teachable moment ...

I don't know if I'd want to be in your class...disregarding what Jesus and the writers of the NT say doesn't fit well with me.

13 posted on 06/15/2010 7:58:06 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: dartuser
All first year Greek students ... your assignment is to write a 10 sentence paper describing why this is nonsense. Papers due tomorrow morning.

Read this! It explains why there are thousands of thousands who have investigated this issue and have accepted it. You may learn something - but you surely don't have to accept it. I'm not that dogmatic :-)

14 posted on 06/15/2010 8:03:17 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Guyin4Os
"Kingdom Now" drivel.

I certainly wouldn't treat Jesus' testimony as "drivel".

In order to have a legitimate Kingdom there must be the right to rule, which Jesus has; there must be a domain... ie, subjects, which Jesus has; and there must be an exercise of that rule, which Jesus is not doing.

Hmmm...Guess what - Jesus is ruling right now, and even better, Christians are ruling with him! That's what the Bible has to say - I leave it up to your great knowledge of the Scriptures, for surely you must have found some verses that tell you Jesus in not in charge of his subjects?

If Jesus Christ reigned right now, His followers would actually follow Him and His enemies would not only fear Him, but would bow down and acknowledge Him as Lord, to the glory of God, The Father.

Jesus is now reigning and His followers really follow Him! They take up the cross and follow Jesus because He is the "head", i.e., the ruler of His "called out assembly" of saints. As for His enemies, when He comes again, they will be destroyed along with this world, just as II Pet. 3:1-18 tells us. Paul said similar things in II Thess. 1:3-10 and 2:1-12

15 posted on 06/15/2010 8:20:27 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: sasportas
But what if Christ actually is going to return physically to this earth - as scripture indicates he will - and reign on earth for a thousand years? Rev. 20. What if the earthly millennial reign is the inheritance of the saints? and since the NT emphasizes faith so much, how vital it is to believe “right,” have you thought that you may be forfeiting your inheritance by your disbelief?

Christ is ACTUALLY going to return physically to this earth, just as Scriptures tell us. But reigning for a short "thousand years"? Naw. His return is to resurrect the righteous and unrighteous for reward or punishment. Our inheritance is not just for "a thousand years", but forever in a new earth in new heavens. I have no fear of forfeiting my inheritance, for I believe Jesus with my whole being: looking forward to having an immortal, powerful, spiritual body just as Christ Jesus received at His resurrection - for the apostle John says that when we see Him we will be like Him. Don't you have that same hope?

16 posted on 06/15/2010 8:29:32 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: dartuser; Guyin4Os
Couldn't help but say a word here.

I spent a few minutes surveying the site there. Lots of articles. This person denies the judgement of unbelievers, denies the immortality of the soul, denies the millenium ... generally has an approach to Scripture that emphasizes simple word studies and draws conclusions based upon that.

A few minutes doesn't allow you the time to absorb what all the articles have to say. After all there are over 350 articles. Not a single article denies the judgement of unbelievers.

But yes, some articles talking about the "soul" do deny its immortality - but that is with the correct definition of what a "soul" really is: it is not an entity found within a human body (nor animal body, for they too are called "living souls/creatures"). Man doesn't HAVE a "soul", man IS a soul - it's that simple!

And yes, I guess you could call what these articles say (or at least most of them - there are some that do look for a millennial period), indicate that they are amillennial for the most part.

Actually, all the articles are based upon "conditionalist" theology, which are never considered for what they really say. At one time we were of the traditionalist viewpoint - we accepted it because is was said to rest upon what the Bible had to say. But a closer investigation of the scriptures indicated that we were mistaken in that assumption. A careful, harmonious and exegetical study doesn't show the viewpoints of millennialists to be correct. We have changed once and do not mind changing again, but we were evidently wrong once through lack of careful study adn do not wish to repeat the same mistake. Mere assertions and denunciations will not refute the evidence presented in the articles on this web-site.

We do address the words recorded in the Bible, for as Jesus said, “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” (John 12:47–48).

We are still waiting for anyone to actually address what is said in any of the articles found on our web-site. Instead all we get is stuff like what this is responding to. O'well, it takes all kinds...

17 posted on 06/15/2010 9:11:06 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA
Jesus is ruling right now, and even better, Christians are ruling with him!

Utter nonsense. I have taught 1st graders in Sunday School who would laugh at this silly statement and then refute it with a simple question, "if we are ruling with Him, why don't the bad people do what we say?" We WILL rule with Him, to be sure. But what we are doing right now isn't "ruling."

Clean up your theology... it is leaving a mess all over the place.

18 posted on 06/15/2010 11:06:15 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: dartuser
This person denies the judgement of unbelievers, denies the immortality of the soul, denies the millenium...

Thanks. Yeah, folks who deny the millennium often have to deny a lot of other central teachings of scripture in order to give their theology symmetry. The result is often a melange of feel-goodism, laced with universalism and sung to doctrine-free songs of "worship" like "Kumbaya."

19 posted on 06/15/2010 11:11:05 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os

I don’t think this site is in the universalism camp ... they are in the “total destruction” camp. They definitely develop a systematic theology on this site, and seem to ignore Biblical theology ... which typically wraps you around the axle in a hurry.


20 posted on 06/16/2010 4:57:40 AM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: Ken4TA

Naw.

You made my point, I said you were an unbeliever. You don’t believe Rev. 20, if so, you are an unbeliever. It says a thousand years, but you say “naw.”

You don’t believe it, nor the resurrection of the righteous at the beginning of the thousand years, with the resurrection of the unrighteous at it’s end. Another “naw.” Instead you believe in a general resurrection - without a thousand years separating the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

As to the thousand years being the ONLY inheritance, the new heavens and earth, beyond the thousand years, is also the inheritance of the saints...as the Revelation also plainly says.

Both the millennial and the new heavens and earth are our inheritance, but you deny the first. If you don’t believe the millennial is our inheritance, then won’t get an inheritance you don’t believe in.


21 posted on 06/16/2010 9:39:46 AM PDT by sasportas
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To: sasportas
What a post! You certainly don't have any idea of what we believe concerning the first and second resurrections.

I do think you need to to a lot more studying of what the scriptures have to say about the end times and the return of Jesus.

22 posted on 06/16/2010 10:57:51 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Guyin4Os
"Jesus is ruling right now, and even better, Christians are ruling with him!'

Utter nonsense. I have taught 1st graders in Sunday School who would laugh at this silly statement and then refute it with a simple question, "if we are ruling with Him, why don't the bad people do what we say?" We WILL rule with Him, to be sure. But what we are doing right now isn't "ruling."

LOL! I realize you don't understand what I said, so you're forgiven. Think: Jesus is now King, sitting on his throne. What purpose is that if he is not ruling his subjects? Jesus' subjects, Christians, rule with Christ by spreading the gospel. In spreading the gospel those who don't believe and obey it are already judged; Christians heaping coals of fire on their heads (figuratively) - yet, by repenting and obeying the gospel they can be saved from God's judgement - second death. You may not understand this in my opinion, but it can be backed up with many scriptures which I don't have the time to produce herein. Maybe later..."ruling" may not be the best word here :-)

23 posted on 06/16/2010 12:55:58 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: All
Many don't understand what the "first resurrection" is. Here is what Curtis says - in part, for there is much more that he reveals in other articles.

First Resurrection – just a small part of what Curtis Dickinson has to say.

The faithful saints in the church at Smyrna were told not to fear the devil, for if they were faithful they would “not be hurt of the second death” (Rev. 2:10–11). The reason was that they had experienced the first resurrection by their obedience to the Gospel and the guilt of their sin had been borne by Jesus. Their resurrection would be to eternal life. Partake of the first resurrection and you escape the second death, the destruction by fire. Reject the first resurrection and you must die twice: the temporal death all must suffer because of our mortal nature, and the second and final death because of sin.

The first resurrection take place when the believer obeys the gospel, dies to sin and is raised to a new life. “Or are you ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death that like as Christ was raised from the death through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:3–4). When we are raised from the grave at Jesus’ command, it will be our second resurrection, only it will be to immortality. Paul wrote that we who are in Christ are no longer under condemnation (Rom. 8:1), but are “in the spirit” which gives life and we already have the first fruits of the spirit. Still, he said, we are waiting, “waiting for our adoption, to wit the redemption of our body” (Rom. 8:23).

Eternal and immortal life is assured the righteous in this life because they are “in Christ” and have experienced the first resurrection from a state of deadly sin into a life “hid with Christ in God” (Col. 3:3). Therefore, “when Christ, who is our life shall be manifested, then shall you also with him be manifested in Glory” (Col. 3:4).

Such is the glory and triumph portrayed in the revelation given to John on the isle of Patmos. It is not given to confuse us nor to stir speculations as to the time of Christ’s coming, but to show us that in spite of all the beastly opposition the world can mount against Christ, the victory is assured to Him and His chosen.

24 posted on 06/16/2010 1:05:18 PM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: sasportas
You made my point, I said you were an unbeliever. You don’t believe Rev. 20, if so, you are an unbeliever. It says a thousand years, but you say “naw.”

But I absolutely DO believe Rev. 20! I just question why Wescott & Hort have changed the term translated as "a thousand" years from xilioi, a plural adjective, to xilia, a singular noun! The oldest Greek manuscripts have the term as "ho xilioi etos", which translates as "the thousands (of) years". Just how does one go from "thousands" to "thousand" and remain true to the recorded words used by Jesus given to John?

Both the millennial and the new heavens and earth are our inheritance, but you deny the first.

I deny neither! We are living in the thousands of years right now having been seated with Christ, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-7. We Christians have been resurrected to walk in "newness of life" - the first resurrection - just as Paul said in Romans 6 1-10.

There are two deaths for every living being: natural death and spiritual death (so to speak). All men are destined to die once, and then the judgment. Unbelievers die naturally, then will die again in the lake of fire (which is the second death) after the resurrection of the last day. However, believers will die twice while on this earth: once naturally, and once spiritually (dead to sin - which is the first resurrection of what was once dead); then at the resurrection of the last day to be made immortal (our reward) to live forever on the New Earth in the New Heavens. See unbelievers: Two deaths, one resurrection. Believers: Two deaths, two resurrections. Easy to explain, hard to believe!

25 posted on 06/16/2010 3:59:09 PM PDT by Ken4TA
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To: Ken4TA
Christians, rule with Christ by spreading the gospel

Again, utter nonsense. Ruling is ruling. Reigning is reigning. Sharing the gospel is neither.

Sharing the gospel is our mandate in this particular period of time so that when the Kingdom IS established on the earth, it will have enough people to administer it properly.

26 posted on 06/16/2010 9:23:37 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os
"Christians, rule with Christ by spreading the gospel"

Again, utter nonsense. Ruling is ruling. Reigning is reigning. Sharing the gospel is neither.

Huh? Who can "reign" without "ruling"? BTW, haven't you read that we Christians (right now) are "reigning with Christ" who is seated on the throne of David?

27 posted on 06/17/2010 11:07:05 AM PDT by Ken4TA
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To: Ken4TA
...who is seated on the throne of David?

The right hand of the Father is not the throne of David. Messiah is sitting there UNTIL His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. THEN he returns and rebuilds the fallen throne of David, on which he will sit and from which he will judge the nations.

28 posted on 06/17/2010 12:46:18 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os
The right hand of the Father is not the throne of David. Messiah is sitting there UNTIL His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. THEN he returns and rebuilds the fallen throne of David, on which he will sit and from which he will judge the nations.

Actually, you are saying that the David's throne is empty? Right? But I say that Jesus is sitting on the throne of David right now. I admit that takes some study to find. Anyway, David's throne is God's throne, and Jesus is the one that was raised from the dead to sit on that throne. Scriptures say that Jesus is now sitting on that throne - in heaven. I don't have the time at present to show you all the scriptures that back my statement up - maybe later. But I'll stand firm on what I said.

29 posted on 06/17/2010 1:44:04 PM PDT by Ken4TA
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To: Ken4TA
Actually, you are saying that the David's throne is empty? Right? But I say that Jesus is sitting on the throne of David right now. I admit that takes some study to find. Anyway, David's throne is God's throne, and Jesus is the one that was raised from the dead to sit on that throne. Scriptures say that Jesus is now sitting on that throne - in heaven. I don't have the time at present to show you all the scriptures that back my statement up - maybe later. But I'll stand firm on what I said.

It is true that Jesus was raised from the dead so that he could sit on David's throne. Just not right away.

David's throne is not God's throne. David's throne is David's throne. Jesus as the son of David will sit on David's throne. Jesus now sits at the right hand of God, the Father. When He returns, He will sit on His glorious throne and will judge the nations. And THEN you can rule with Him. :)

30 posted on 06/17/2010 2:02:55 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os
David's throne is not God's throne. David's throne is David's throne. Jesus as the son of David will sit on David's throne. Jesus now sits at the right hand of God, the Father. When He returns, He will sit on His glorious throne and will judge the nations. And THEN you can rule with Him. :)

Explain this: "Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father,..." (I Chr. 29:23). When God ruled the Hebrews there was no King but Him, and the only throne was the one God sat upon in Heaven. But when the people complained about having no King as the other nations do, God let them have a King and he sat upon the Lord's (Jehovah no less!) throne! Thusly we find that David's throne is actually God's throne. Jesus now sits with the Father on His throne, reigning over His subjects. That's as short as I can make it :-)

31 posted on 06/17/2010 2:50:23 PM PDT by Ken4TA
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To: Ken4TA

So you are saying that David sat at God’s right hand?


32 posted on 06/17/2010 3:27:13 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os
So you are saying that David sat at God’s right hand?

Absolutely not. David sat on God's throne as King over God's chosen people.

33 posted on 06/17/2010 4:06:17 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Ken4TA
I asked: So you are saying that David sat at God’s right hand?

You replied: Absolutely not. David sat on God's throne as King over God's chosen people.

Ok, the throne David sat on was not at the right hand of God the Father. And yet, Jesus, who sits at the right hand of God, the Father is sitting on David's throne. Do you realize how convoluted that is. In order to make your theology coherent, you are going to have to get your thrones straight.

34 posted on 06/17/2010 10:05:51 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os
Ok, the throne David sat on was not at the right hand of God the Father. And yet, Jesus, who sits at the right hand of God, the Father is sitting on David's throne. Do you realize how convoluted that is. In order to make your theology coherent, you are going to have to get your thrones straight.

Before there was a "King" in Israel, God reigned from His throne and the people knew it. But they wanted a "King" just like the other nations wanted - so, God's throne became available to "man" to sit on it and reign over the nations people. That throne became "David's Throne" on earth even though it is God's Throne. God revealed that one of David's seeds will one day reign on that "throne"; and it happened when Jesus assended up to heaven to sit on it with the Father. You've seen the strong verses that indicate that conclusion - how do you understand them?

35 posted on 06/18/2010 7:03:48 AM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Ken4TA

Those verses only indicate the conclusion if the conclusion is first assumed. You asked me how I understand certain verses. It is better to inquire about my understanding of the Davidic Covenant, which can ONLY be understood in the light of the Son of David ruling on the earth. The book of the Revelation affixes a time-period to the length of his earthly rule, a millennium. Attempts of amillennialists to disregard that time period fall flat.


36 posted on 06/19/2010 1:45:59 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os
Those verses only indicate the conclusion if the conclusion is first assumed. You asked me how I understand certain verses. It is better to inquire about my understanding of the Davidic Covenant, which can ONLY be understood in the light of the Son of David ruling on the earth. The book of the Revelation affixes a time-period to the length of his earthly rule, a millennium. Attempts of amillennialists to disregard that time period fall flat.

Read Acts 2:22-36. Understand that David's throne is promised to Jesus - and that David saw ahead that the one to sit on his throne was the Christ Jesus. Jesus ascended into heaven to sit on that throne. Jesus is immortal and can die no more, so he now reigns instead of anyone else; at the approval of God the Father, for the Father has given all power to Jesus to rule over heaven and earth.

Explain how you get that Jesus is to reign only during the so-called "one thousand years" mentioned in Rev. 20? Why would He need to do that? Who is He going to reign over, expecially with a "rod of iron"?

37 posted on 06/19/2010 2:39:14 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Ken4TA
Who is He going to reign over, expecially with a "rod of iron"?

The Nations... as the King of Kings.

The Acts passage does not explicitly state that the right hand of God is the throne of David... you read it into the passage.

38 posted on 06/19/2010 4:01:09 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os
The Acts passage does not explicitly state that the right hand of God is the throne of David... you read it into the passage.

I feel your pain.

39 posted on 06/19/2010 4:19:14 PM PDT by dartuser ("Palin 2012 ... nothing else will do.")
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To: Guyin4Os
"Who is He going to reign over, expecially with a "rod of iron"?"

The Nations... as the King of Kings.

Hmmm....If all the saints are already resurrected and given immortality, then I take it that all the nations of the world are unsaved people, right? And that Jesus is going to rule them with a rod of iron? Interesting thought!

The Acts passage does not explicitly state that the right hand of God is the throne of David... you read it into the passage.

True, that I have to admit. But then when one considers that the OT tells us that David sat on the throne of God on earth, and that when Jesus returns it is not to result in forgiveness of sin but instead judgment, it is easy to see that Davids prodigy is Jesus as Acts tells us. One must take into consideration that Jesus was emphatic in saying that His return was to raise all the dead, some for everlasting life and others for judgment. Going by your thoughts, the dead ones raised for judgment will be ruled for 1,000 years by Jesus with a rod of iron - no saved people around.

Don't know if I got that correct, but Peter tells us that at Jesus' coming this earth will be destroyed along with all unrighteous men; and there will be a "new earth in new heavens" for the righteous to live on. Does that passage from Peter's second letter fit in with your schedule?

I would say that I don't have the same viewpoint as you about the time period of Revelation 20. I don't take it as a mere 1,000 years; mainly because the word translated as 1,000 actually is a plural term meaning "thousands". I have done a preliminary study on this issue, and it's available on my website for anyone to read and respond to if they wish.

40 posted on 06/19/2010 6:49:15 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Guyin4Os
It is better to inquire about my understanding of the Davidic Covenant, which can ONLY be understood in the light of the Son of David ruling on the earth.

In further thinking on the above, let me say that I don't really understand what you mean by the above. Thusly, I can't intelligently comment much on it except to give my own viewpoint. Sorry, I guess you will need to expound more on the above idea.

41 posted on 06/19/2010 6:53:48 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Ken4TA
When you disagree with someone on a viewpoint, it is expedient that you first learn what that viewpoint is. Understanding comes first. Disagreement comes later. Therefore I would encourage you to learn the millennial view so that you won't argue against a mischaracterization of it.

Example: Going by your thoughts, the dead ones raised for judgment will be ruled for 1,000 years by Jesus.

I don't know anyone who believes this.

42 posted on 06/20/2010 6:38:35 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os
Example: Going by your thoughts, the dead ones raised for judgment will be ruled for 1,000 years by Jesus.

Sorry, I mispoke there. That's what I get for not reviewing what I wrote and hit the "already previewed" box and then "post" - bad decision. It was supposed to be the "dead ones raised for rewards will be ruled for 1,000 years by Jesus" - with a "rod of iron"? Why? They are saved, are they not? And where do you find what goes on in this 1,000 year period in the Bible? There are many more questions that could be asked of the dispensational and pre-millennial viewpoints.

43 posted on 06/20/2010 7:35:27 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Guyin4Os
When you disagree with someone on a viewpoint, it is expedient that you first learn what that viewpoint is. Understanding comes first. Disagreement comes later.

And do you really understand my viewpoint?

44 posted on 06/20/2010 7:37:35 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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To: Ken4TA
And do you really understand my viewpoint?

Yes, you believe that the "millennium" is now, Christ is reigning from the right hand of the throne of God, that when He returns, there will be a new heavens and new earth. This view is typically called "amillennialism." But that title is really a misnomer, since those who hold the view believe we are in the "millennial" reign of Christ now. You view the 1000 years mentioned in the book of the Revelation as symbolic of the period of time between the ascension of Christ and his return. He will return and judge the living and the dead and then install the eternal state.

I understand the view... and since I utilize a literal hermeneutic, I reject the view. (I do like my friends who hold the view though... I don't reject them) :)

45 posted on 06/20/2010 9:23:07 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Guyin4Os
Yes, you believe that the "millennium" is now, Christ is reigning from the right hand of the throne of God, that when He returns, there will be a new heavens and new earth. This view is typically called "amillennialism." But that title is really a misnomer, since those who hold the view believe we are in the "millennial" reign of Christ now.

Actually, my view is of the "Historicist" viewpoint. We look at the views of futurism as a misunderstanding of many prophecies and the changing of the terms used by the writers of Scripture to produce a contorted view of what is said. Using the tools of hermeneutics, such as exegesis and etymology, and looking at how the terms were used at the time employed, we feel our viewpoint is more viable than the other viewpoints. Do we "condemn" other viewpoints? Absolutely not. Most of the end time viewpoints are not what salvation is all about. I do not believe that ignoring all that has happened in history and attempting to place all of them into the future provides a satisfactory answer.

As for me understanding futuristic viewpoints, well, I hear many variations of each of them, some contradictory in themselves. It, at times, is very confusing. It seems that not all individual in any one particular strain of belief understands it the way another one in the same strain of belief does. Do you understand that?

46 posted on 06/20/2010 9:44:07 PM PDT by Ken4TA (Truth hurts, especially when it goes against what one believes.)
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