Posted on 06/17/2010 4:24:08 PM PDT by Ken4TA
In the first invasion of Judah by Babylon, long before the captivity of the whole nation, the leaders and most promising young men were carted off to Babylon where they were trained and used in various capacities. Since the defeat and captivity of the nation was according to Divine purpose as punishment for the nation’s disobedience, the faithful citizens cooperated and were elevated to places of leadership in Babylon, where they continued to serve God and thus prove helpful to their own people. Such was the case of Daniel.
Daniel had already learned from the book of Jeremiah that the captivity was to last 70 years (Dan. 9:2). But it was left to Daniel to reveal the timetable for the coming of the Christ, which is recorded in chapter 9, verses 24–27.
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy” (Vs. 24).
The seventy weeks are generally understood to mean seventy weeks of years for a total of 490 years. It was to begin when Cyrus gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem. “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times” (Vs. 25).
This is a total of 69 weeks, or 483 years. While there is some disagreement as to the exact time the decree of Cyrus was issued, there is common belief that this 69 weeks measured up to the time of Christ. But what of the 70th week, did it follow the 69th, as one would certainly expect it to, since Daniel was giving a prophecy to be fulfilled in 70 weeks, or is the 70th week yet in the future? The text gives the answer.
“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” (Vs. 26–27).
A predominant doctrine of prophetic preaching today holds that these two verses in the prophecy are yet to be fulfilled, and that the 70th week refers to an Antichrist who will make a covenant with the Jews, offer sacrifices in a rebuilt temple at Jerusalem and then break the covenant after three and a half years, causing the sacrifices to cease. Besides focusing attention on worthless speculations, such a futurist concept denies the fulfillment which has already occurred, and thus diminishes the “faith once and for all delivered”.
The principle revelation of the prophecy is the cross of Christ and the end of Israel as a nation, signaled by the destruction of the city. The time was “determined” as 490 years after the decree of Cyrus. But if one is to separate the last seven years from the first 483, then nothing is determined and the prophecy loses its significance.
For the timing to have any meaning, it must all be taken together; the 7 weeks, plus the 62 weeks, plus the final 1 week. Note then it says that “after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off” (Vs. 26). This can only mean the death of Christ. This is exactly what “cut off” means, as Isaiah said: “He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due” (Isa. 53:8).
Daniel said this would be “AFTER” the first 69 weeks, and not during them, which means that the 70th week was to see the death of Christ. It was in the “midst of the week,” the 70th week, that sacrifices were to cease. The week is made up of seven years. Christ was sacrificed in its “midst” after 3 ½ years of ministry, and never again is there to be a blood-sacrifice for sins. Not only is this something that has already happened, it can NEVER happen again.
Now notice how the different parts of the prophecy are fulfilled:
1. During the first prophetic seven weeks (or 49 years) Jerusalem was restored and the streets and wall were rebuilt in the time of Nehemiah and Ezra. These were “troublous times” because of strong opposition from enemies.
2. At the end of the 69th week, the “most Holy” was anointed. Gabriel, Peter and John all spoke of Jesus as the Holy One. Jesus spoke of His own anointing in the first public message He gave: “The spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me…” (Luke 4:18–22). Peter affirmed this fact (Acts 10:38).
3. The Messiah was “cut off.” This is an obvious reference to our Lord’s crucifixion and death, already mentioned.
4. In killing Christ the Jews also fulfilled the prophecy “to finish transgression.” This was the final transgression that filled the cup of sin for the nation. Jesus told the Jews, “Fill you up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of Gehenna? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some of them you shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall you scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city, that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zecharias son of Barachias, whom you slew between the temple and the altar…” (Matt. 23:32–36). The corruption of Israel, which cause their 70 year captivity, became even worse as they returned to Jerusalem with the Babylonian traditions (known as the Talmud), which Jesus said they had used to replace the commandments of God. But His judgment was delayed, delayed until they should “fill up” the measure of sin and “finish transgression” in finally killing the Son of God.
5. In dying Jesus made an end of sins. “But now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” (Heb. 9:26). This doesn’t mean that all sinning stops at the point of His death. It does mean that because of His death all who are forgiven of sin, are forgiven because of the just penalty paid in Christ’s death.
6. By His death He “made reconciliation for the sins of the people” (Heb. 2:17 and II Cor. 5:19).
7. By Christ’s death and resurrection He brought in “everlasting righteousness.” “For He who knew no sin He made to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him” (II Cor. 5:21). None of these things can be done in the future which were accomplished “by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb. 10:10).
8. By fulfilling what was prophesied in the Old Testament, Christ “sealed up prophecy and vision” (Read Acts 3:18).
9. Christ, who was called the messenger of the covenant (Mal. 3:1), confirmed the covenant in His own blood. At the last supper He said, “This is my blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matt. 26:28). Christ is called the “Mediator of the new covenant” (Heb. 8:6, 9:14–15). Any forecast of a restored covenant with the Old Testament system of sacrifices contradicts a multitude of Biblical affirmations that the law of Moses was abrogated permanently for the establishment of the New Covenant (Col. 2:14 and Gal. 3:24–25).
10. Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease by being Himself the final sacrifice. “He, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Heb. 10:12). The fact that this was to occur in the middle of the 70th week has special significance, as it gives a specific time for the death of Christ. This gives understanding to the statements of Jesus with regard to the time of his death. “Mine hour is not yet come,” He said (John 2:4, 7:6). Just before his betrayal He said, “my time is at hand” (Matt. 26:18), and finally, “the hour is come” (John 17:1, Matt. 26:45). So ended the first half of the 70th week. But for another three and a half years Christ continued to minister to His people through the apostles, “the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following” (Mark 16:20). Then came the conversion of Cornelius, the Roman, and after that the gospel began to be preached to all the nations (Gentiles) as had been promised.
11. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple did not come within the 70 weeks, but was part of the overall prophecy concerning the end of the nation. As God had given Nineveh 40 days to repent, He gave Israel 40 years to repent, but when they failed to do so He brought destruction to them through the Roman general, Titus. The siege, begun in 67 AD let to the worst abominations a people ever inflicted upon each other, fulfilling Christ’s prophecy of a time of tribulation never known before or afterwards in all history. The final destruction of the temple and the city came in 70 AD. The promise to ancient Israel was the promise of Christ. But Israel had proven faithless and rebellious, so Daniel foresaw His coming not only as bringing in the blessing of reconciliation for iniquity and the sealing of the New Covenant by His death, but also as judgment upon the rebels.
The fulfillment of God’s prophecies constitute an irrefutable body of evidence that God’s word is true. The Most Holy has been anointed. Jesus is the Christ, with the name above every name. He is the fulfillment of prophecy. From the cross He said, “It is finished.” There is no more to be done for the redemption of man than the proclamation of this good news until He comes again.
And what are we to look forward to? Certainly not the fantastic and sensational improvisations that have men examining every national figure for signs of “the antichrist,” nor to the counterfeit nation of Israel and a rebuilt “temple.” (The church is the temple of God.) Rather we are to look to the next promised act of Christ: His coming in judgment to separate the wheat from the tares, to give immortality to all His faithful ones and destroy all the rebels.
The reward of Christ is not a temporal government, not even if it should last a thousand years. The reward is eternal; eternal life in a new creation that will stand forever. The church will not fail nor be replaced like ancient Jerusalem and the temple. The reward is for those who hold to the faith established by the covenant sealed by the death of Christ. There are no other covenants to follow.
The message of the church today is the message of salvation and reconciliation by Christ’s death. It is salvation from sin to righteousness and from death to immortal life.
1. The Promise to Abraham
2. The Millennial Syndrome
3. Daniel’s Prophecy
>>>Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem...<<< (from v. 25)
As long as verse 23 remains "cut off" from these types of commentaries/interpretations, there will be no understanding.
I’ve always found Daniel interesting and that’s a good summary of the prophecy. It shows why Jesus was born at the time he was and not fifty or something years earlier or later. It also gave those looking for the messiah a general time frame to expect him.
Cheers.
Just what are you trying to say? Verse 23 is not a part of 24-27, it's the introduction, of which verse 22 is also to be included.
Exactly! The ministry of Jesus started the 70th week of the prophecy. Israel's people were looking for the Messiah's appearance with great expectation; thinking that he would be their King and overthrow the Roman occupation of Israel. That was not to be. They were looking for a wrong sort of King and Savior.
Bless you!
For the most part this analysis of the prophecy is correct. The best way to analyze this prophecy is to start off with the passover date 14 Nisan 3790 which is the exact date of “cut off” of the Messiah. That date is the exact date of the middle of the 70th week. If you go back 486.5 years from that date you get 3303.5 which is 1 Nisan 3303. That year is the 7th year of Artexerxes. Ezra 7:7
My question remains from post #37 from your thread “The promise to Abraham”. I repeat for the 3rd or 4th time. Where in the Bible and what date have the house of Judah and house of Israel been reunited in the land of the Abrahamic land covenant since 721 BC ?
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
understood by whom????
Cyrus gave the command for the Temple to be rebuilt not Jerusalem. And given that Cyrus died circa 530 BC, how does 490 get you anywhere close to the time of Jesus' ministry???
As far as the rest, it is mostly a jumbled mess of replacement theology word salad.
All tribes of Israel were reunited in the building of the temple in Jerusalem when Cyrus gave the command to do so. That happened at the end of the 70 years Israel and Judah were captive in Babylon.
understood by whom????
By most students of the Bible!
Cyrus gave the command for the Temple to be rebuilt not Jerusalem. And given that Cyrus died circa 530 BC, how does 490 get you anywhere close to the time of Jesus' ministry???
Read your Bible. Check out Daniel 9:25 for starters.
As far as the rest, it is mostly a jumbled mess of replacement theology word salad.
Rhetoric! I guess the same could be said of Dispensationalism; and most other groups on their end-time theology.
The Bible does not say that. If you think it does show me where???
Read your Bible. Check out Daniel 9:25 for starters.
Get real and learn some math -- your numbers don't add up -- much less your jumbled bible salad. According to your theology and math, the Messiah would have had to come numbers in 53BC -- LOL.
Laugh all you want! I find it intersting to notice that C. I. Scofield originally favored using the decree of Artaxerxes, until he read Martin Anstey's book, "Romance of Bible Chronology" which contained a system of chronology far superior to any of the former systems, for it dates were based only on the Scriptures. Scofield pointed out that the decree of Cyrus is the correct starting point of the 70 weeks prophecy. He then accepted this conclusion and rejected the erroneous chronology based on Ptolemy. He pointed this out in his book "What Do The Prophets Say?" (page 142) published in 1918: ""Whatever confusion has existed at this point has been due to following the Ptolemaic instead of the Biblical chronology, as Anstey in his 'Romance of Bible Chronology'." But he never corrected the dates in his Scofield Bible notes!
You should read a little more instead of blindly following erroneous statements made by those who follow the notes in various books and propagated by influencial preachers, teachers, and church pastors.
Regardless of this, Christ came on God's schedule just as is recorded in the Bible - which is from Cyrus' command to rebuild Jerusalem; which also included the temple.
So then the Messiah came in 53 BC??? Wow -- you replacement theology propagators are something else.
Scofield pointed out that the decree of Cyrus is the correct starting point of the 70 weeks prophecy.
A replacement theology teaching assistant citing C. I. Scofield as an authority!!!
Will wonders never cease!!!
So then the Messiah came in 53 BC??? Wow -- you replacement theology propagators are something else.
Hmmm...it seems you don't read or believe what the Bible has to say. You're replacement theology replaces what God has revealed - sad, very sad; that's all I can say.
"Scofield pointed out that the decree of Cyrus is the correct starting point of the 70 weeks prophecy."
A replacement theology teaching assistant citing C. I. Scofield as an authority!!!
Will wonders never cease!!!
Nope, not as long as you continue to disbelieve the Bible and are insistent on using you're replacement theology for God's word!
Maybe you should be arguing with those propagating erroneous teachings....???? - like Dispensationalists, JW's, and all who teach speculative and sensational end-time teachings?
I'm waiting for you to show me how 536 BC [Cyrus' Decree] less 483 years [69 weeks of years] gets you to any other Messianic Coming other than 53 BC.
Don't you have some replacement math to go along with your replacement theology???
On last time! Let me quote someone else, as you won't just believe me :-)
We believe the evidence is clear that it was CYRUS who gave the commandment which restored the people to Jerusalem so that it could be built - both the city and the temple. However, there is a teaching that is commonly held - especially by dispensationalists - the the 70 weeks are NOT to be counted from the decree of Cyrus, but from a much later decree. According to the dates given by Ussher, the twentieth year of Artaxerxes (when letters were given to Nehemiah to go to Jerusalem) would come closer to the time required by the prophecy - so as to measure unto the time that Christ was revealed to Israel. For this reason, some have chosen this as the starting point of the 70 weeks prophecy. (Anderson, The Coming Prince, page 124.)
But instead of seeking a later decree from that of Cyrus, we feel what should be questioned is they system of dates that some have used in this connection. The fact is that the chronological systems of Ussher, Lloyd, and others that seek to date this period, have all been based on the "cannon" of Ptolemy, a list of Persian kings and the supposed length of time that they reigned. Mauro says: "Ptolemy does not even pretend to have had any facts as to the length of thePersian period (that is to say, from Darius and Cyrus down to Alexander the Great)"; his dates are based on "calculations or guesses made by Eratosthenes, and on certain vague floating traditions." (Mauro, The Seventy weeks and the Great Tribulation, pages 22, 24). Nevertheless, dates based on Ptolemy are often quotred as though they had some special authority.
"He (Cyrus) is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to JERUSALEM thou shalt be BUILT; and to the TEMPLE, thy foundation shall be laid" (Isa. 44:28).
"I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: HE SHALL BUILD MY CITY, and shall, let go my captives, not for price nor reward" (Isa. 45:14).
According to Josephus, Cyrus wrote: "God almighty has appointed me to be king of the habitable earth..he indeed foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in the country of Judea." After Cyrus had read the prophey in Isaiah, "He called for the most eminent Jews that were in Babylon, and said to them, that he gave them leave to go back to their own country, and to REBULD THEIR CITY JERUSALEM, and THE TEMPLE of God." (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XI, 1, 2, 3.)
Read Ezra, chapter one, which records the proclamation that was made by Cyrus; chapter two, which gives a list of those that returned; chapter 3, which tells us that the "people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem" (v. 1), Built an altar, and made offerings. "But the foundation of the temple of the Lord was not yet laid" (v. 6). However they began making arrangements for its building "according to the grant that they had of Cyrus" (v. 7). Two years and two months after their return, "All the people shoulted with a great shout...because the foundation of the house of the Lord was laid" (vs. 8-11).
Think: 2 years and 2 months passed away before they even laid the foundations! Do you assume that the people were just sitting around during that time? Or were they building homes during that time? Read Chapter 4, verses 11-16, then verse 24; then continue reading until your eyes are sore!
Naw, the time that Cyrus gave the command was the end of the 70 years captivity and the start of the 70 weeks prophecy!
Does your replacement theology really want to go by what the Bible and history tells us? If so, have at it, it doesn't really bother me.
You say:
All tribes of Israel were reunited in the building of the temple in Jerusalem when Cyrus gave the command to do so. That happened at the end of the 70 years Israel and Judah were captive in Babylon.
If that is so, then where is or who was the the king spoken of in
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Why does Isaiah say they will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, if the people of the Babylonian captivity returned only from Babylon?
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
If the whole house of Israel and house of Judah returned to Jerusalem after 70 years of captivity, then why does Yeshua say
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
It’s obvious that the entire house of Israel was not in Jerusalem at that time.
If the whole house of Israel returned to the physical promised land of the Abrahamic pact, then why does Paul, who was sent to preach to the Gentile nations, use the term “our fathers” when speaking to the Corinthians of a far away land.
1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
If all the 2 houses returned after the 70 years in “Babylon”, why does Zechariah say they will be taken out of “Egypt and Assyria”? When did that occur. Any history book, date, anything you can show.
Zec 10:10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
"24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer , and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish ; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof: 27 That saith to the deep, Be dry , and I will dry up thy rivers: 28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid."
The Lord didn't say that Cyrus would "say it". He said that He would "say it".
And Isaiah 45:14 refers not to Cyrus but to the "son" of Cyrus.
You are still avoiding the mathematical insufficiency of your proposition which calls for the Messiah to have arrived in 53 BC.
Doesn't that bother you at all????
If the return from Babylonian Diaspora was the again the second time, then when was the first time???
Ya gotta love Fruchtenbaum but Scythian you need to be able to put what he says into your own words because most will not run out and buy his book based upon it’s picture.
The second time hasn’t occurred yet. We know that because only a portion of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah returned after the 70 year Babylonian captivity. The majority of the house of Israel was dispersed in 721BC by the Assyrians. Those have never, up to now, returned to that land. They certainly weren’t captives of Babylon since they were dispersed over 100 years before Nebuchudnezzar was ever king.
Ken4TA says that all the peoples of both houses have returned in past history. I disagree. That’s my reason for post 19.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
that is so, then where is who was the the king spoken of in Eze 37:22 I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
That King was Jesus. When he walked the earth his ministry was to all twelve tribes and the tribe of Levite. They were all represented in Judea.
Why does Isaiah say they will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, if the people of the Babylonian captivity returned only from Babylon? Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Because when Jesus walked the earth the situation in Judea contained all twelve tribes, and they all came for certain feast days (at least a representive of them did). Read Acts 2:1-11 - These were all of the various tribes of Israel.
If the whole house of Israel and house of Judah returned to Jerusalem after 70 years of captivity, then why does Yeshua say Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It’s obvious that the entire house of Israel was not in Jerusalem at that time.
All Israel were "lost sheep", although there were a remnant faithful to God. He was sent, not to the Gentiles, but to the people of Isral who lived in Judea and in every nation of the world at that time. His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years, and the apostles continued it for the next 3 1/2 years before it was expanded to include the Gentiles - starting with Cornelius. That, BTW, was the 70 week of the prophecy of Daniel.
If the whole house of Israel returned to the physical promised land of the Abrahamic pact, then why does Paul, who was sent to preach to the Gentile nations, use the term “our fathers” when speaking to the Corinthians of a far away land. 1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
Paul was speaking of "his fathers" because he was of one of the tribes of Israel just as some of those he preached to were of the tribes of Israel. There were also many Gentiles also listening to him, as the record shows.
If all the 2 houses returned after the 70 years in “Babylon”, why does Zechariah say they will be taken out of “Egypt and Assyria”? When did that occur. Any history book, date, anything you can show. Zec 10:10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.
I think you are combining two separate "returns". I don't have the time right now to explain further. Sorry. I'll put it on my note-pad for later look-up. But by the time I'm able to do so (I've got a full plate right now and am on a fairly strick schedule) this thread will probably be dead. I'm just telling things as they are, not making an excuse to run from responding.
You ask some very good questions. Keep doing so on everything you don't have all knowledge on. God bless.
Not one bit :-) This is just a discussion, and a learning situation, for both of us, I hope.
I gave you plenty of information concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the building of the temple. Maybe you should take some time out and read the whole books of Ezra and Nehemiah, not forgetting to read the references to Kings and Chronicles found in most study Bibles.
This is Isaiah speaking of the same return from the nations that is spoken about by Ezra and Nehamiah.
Ken4TA says that all the peoples of both houses have returned in past history.
Sorry, I never said "ALL" of the peoples of both houses have returned in past history. I said there was a representation of all Israel, i.e., the twelve tribes plus the tribe of Levi. We know for a fact that not "ALL" of the Israelites, the ten tribes and Judea which inluded Benjamin, returned from Babylon - many stayed because they had built their home there. For an example of this, Read Peter's letters - there were still Israelites in Babylon around 60-65 AD, hundreds of years later. Not only that, but there were thousands of Israelites in Egypt and other nations that never returned to Jerusalem. That is history's record. Thank you, and God bless you in your search for truth.
Where do you get this from? It's not scriptural. You find no mention of any tribe but Judah, Benjamin and Levi in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah which chronicle the return from Babylon.
There, updated it for you.
If that's the case then why does Josephus say this:
[Antiquities Book XI, Chapter V, Paragraph II] When Esdras had received this epistle, he was very joyful, and began to worship God, and confessed that he had been the cause of the king's great favor to him, and that for the same reason he gave all the thanks to God. So he read the epistle at Babylon to those Jews that were there; but he kept the epistle itself, and sent a copy of it to all those of his own nation that were in Media. And when these Jews had understood what piety the king had towards God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased; nay, many of them took their effects with them, and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers. Now there came a great number of priests, and Levites, and porters, and sacred singers, and sacred servants to Esdras. So he gathered those that were in the captivity together beyond Euphrates, and staid there three days, and ordained a fast for them, that they might make their prayers to God for their preservation, that they might suffer no misfortunes by the way, either from their enemies, or from any other ill accident; for Esdras had said beforehand that he had told the king how God would preserve them, and so he had not thought fit to request that he would send horsemen to conduct them. So when they had finished their prayers, they removed from Euphrates on the twelfth day of the first month of the seventh year of the reign of Xerxes, and they came to Jerusalem on the fifth month of the same year. Now Esdras presented the sacred money to the treasurers, who were of the family of the priests, of silver six hundred and fifty talents, vessels of silver one hundred talents, vessels of gold twenty talents, vessels of brass, that was more precious than gold, (8) twelve talents by weight; for these Presents had been made by the king and his counselors, and by all the Israelites that staid at Babylon. So when Esdras had delivered these things to the priests, he gave to God, as the appointed sacrifices of whole burnt-offerings, twelve bulls on account of the common preservation of the people, ninety rams, seventy-two lambs, and twelve kids of the goats, for the remission of sins. He also delivered the king's epistle to the king's officers, and to the governors of Celesyria and Phoenicia; and as they were under a necessity of doing what was enjoined by him, they honored our nation, and were assistant to them in all their necessities.
Those two tribes (subject to the Romans).....of course would have been Judah and Benjamin since Levi was not counted. As a priestly tribe they were dispersed among the others.
[Acts 2:1-11] Where in this scripture does it say there were Israelites from every tribe in Jerusalem for Shavuot?
Gee, for nearly 2000 years it has been understood almost universally that the True Israel is made up of all the Saints of God going back Seth and ending with the last of the Elect to be redeemed. If there is any replacement theology going on, its the Dispensationalists replacing the Truth of the Gospel for regurgitated OT Judaism.
You say:
That King was Jesus. When he walked the earth his ministry was to all twelve tribes and the tribe of Levite. They were all represented in Judea.
Incorrect. He was not a King the first time. He was Messiah. He is King when he returns.
You say:
Because when Jesus walked the earth the situation in Judea contained all twelve tribes, and they all came for certain feast days (at least a representive of them did). Read Acts 2:1-11 - These were all of the various tribes of Israel.
The small nation of Israel is a long way from encompassing the four corners of the earth. Your answer is not logical nor in agreeance with Isaiah 11 speaking of the Kingdom at Yeshua’s second coming, in verse 10 “islands of the sea”. The land of Israel is not an island of the sea. I think you may want to reconsider.
You say:
All Israel were “lost sheep”, although there were a remnant faithful to God. He was sent, not to the Gentiles, but to the people of Israel who lived in Judea and in every nation of the world at that time. His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years, and the apostles continued it for the next 3 1/2 years before it was expanded to include the Gentiles - starting with Cornelius. That, BTW, was the 70 week of the prophecy of Daniel.
Thank You. You finally agree that not all of the house of Israel was in the land of Israel during the time of Yeshua but were located as you now admit “in every nation of the world at that time.” So it now becomes obvious that the gathering from the “four corners of the earth” and “the second time” applies to the house of Israel, dispersed in 721BC, and who Paul went to preach to in the Gentile nations. The “second time” referring when they return to the land inheritance (Kingdom on earth) with the house of Judah who was dispersed in 70 AD.
You say:
Paul was speaking of “his fathers” because he was of one of the tribes of Israel just as some of those he preached to were of the tribes of Israel. There were also many Gentiles also listening to him, as the record shows.
We’re on the same track (ignoring the his or our fathers). Main point is that yes, he was speaking to some of his distant cousins from the 10 “lost” tribes (house of Israel) whom he hadn’t seen or heard of since the 721BC dispersal to the four corners of the earth.
Blessings in your search for the TRUTH
He goes by the name "Son of David" (v24), others call Him Jesus Christ. You may want to look at (v25) "...they, their children, and their children's children forever and my servant David shall be their prince forever (v26) "...it shall be an everlasting covenant... (v28) "...My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."
Since when does "forever", "everlasting" and "forevermore" become a synonym for "one thousand years" ?
Why does Isaiah say they will be gathered from the four corners of the earth,
Because the Gentile nations, grafted into the tree of Abraham fulfill the mystery of including people of all the nations.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
It’s obvious that the entire house of Israel was not in Jerusalem at that time.
Actually, its obvious you are wresting Scripture. The woman of Canaan, a Greek, sought healing from our LORD for her daughter. (v23) our LORD tests her faith, (v24) our LORD refers to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" as the Jews, to whom Jesus's ministry clearly was confined to. This idea is reinforced with the exchange in vv 25-27.
You really need to read the parable of the wicked vinedressers (Mk 12:1-12), then the parable of the wedding feast. It is clear in these parables that the scope of our LORD's ministry was to the Jews. The times of the Gentiles being grafted into the True Israel began at Pentacost. The lost sheep, clearly refers to the Elect within the Jewish community who were given by the Father to the Son.
I promise that in your distorted and perverted view of the Church, you will never find a literal fulfillment of that which you adamantly claim is there but is not.
In ref. to post 28.
You ask:
Where do you get this from? It’s not scriptural. You find no mention of any tribe but Judah, Benjamin and Levi in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah which chronicle the return from Babylon.
There appears two places that indicate there were some members of the house of Israel that were living with the house of Judah in the southern Kingdom. See 1Kings 12:17; Eze. 37:16 (judah ...children of Israel).
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
No one disagrees with that. We all know that folks from every tribe (Ten Tribes) went south also....to escape the Paqan practices of Jereboam and his sons [II Chronicles 11:16]....but they were absorbed into Judah (verse 17) and overtime became known as Jews themselves.
When the folks returned from Babylon 400 years later....the descendants of these Israelites who went south were now considered Jews. Their tribal lineage was now of Judah and they became Jews as did their brothers from Levi and Benjamin.
And that is why Ezra and Nehemiah do not mention them.
You say:
If that is so, then where is or who was the the king spoken of in Ezekiel 37:22?
Yes, Emanuel down from David will be King forever.
You say:
Why does Isaiah say they will be gathered from the four corners of the earth,
Yes, the 10 tribes are part of the Gentiles
You say:
“ our LORD refers to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” as the Jews,
Nope, you will not find a single verse in the Bible where the house of Israel are Jews. That is as fundamental as 1, 2, 3. The house of Judah are Jews and Benjamites.
Your parables don’t mention anything about the sheep or the shepherd.
Shutting down this thread. Got enough. It’s over.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH.
I am not so sure about the Levi’s becoming Jews. We’re talking genetic makeup. Genetic makeup from one tribe can not be changed to another. Currently DNA testing is being done to restore the Levites to their sanctuary duties as priests in the coming third temple.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
If today....you were to ask an Israelie what Tribe he is of, the answer would be.....Judah, Benjamin or Levi. The answer would be the same of any Jew living anywhere in the world. These three tribes melded together to become the Southern Kingdom after the problems with Jereboam [II Chronicles 11]. Verse 1 tells us that Benjamin and Judah were already prepared to make war against their brother tribes of Israel.....and then were joined by Levi (verse 13) to complete the kingdom ruled by Rehoboam, Judah. This is where the term Jew originates and the folks from the other tribes (verse 16) had, by the time of the Babylonian captivity and return (400 years later) intermarried so much (through successive generations) that their previous bloodlines of the north were diluted... to the point of non existence.
This is not to say that Levi remained somewhat pure with limited intermarriage.....but they were still known as Jews. Still are! When the Books of the Kings and Chronicles were written after the return from Babylon (500 B.C.).......some say by Ezra himself, it is noted that the Ten Tribes of the North are still located in Assyria [II Kings 17:22-23] and this is why you see none of those tribes listed as returning from Babylon in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. It's because they didn't! And.....today, their descendants are spread worldwide [Amos 9:9]....thinking they are Gentiles [Hosea 1:10].....and this is where you find Israel today. Worldwide! You find most of Judah living in a little country on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea.... surrounded by enemies!
Good. That means that I can have the last word to correct, in small part, your mountain of errors.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH.
Which is interesting for you to say, since your brand of teaching is constantly evolving - literally, day-by-day. Truth doesn't evolve, its eternal. Speaking of evolving, it is interesting that three dangerous world views came out of Europe right there in the mid 1800s: Evolution, Marxism and Dispensationalism. Each one of these heresies target specific doctrine and teachings of the Scriptures: in order, Origin/Fall, our relationship with God, and Redemption. And history has shown the extensive damage these teachings have wrought.
Here is an example of the folly:
Yes, the 10 tribes are part of the Gentiles
Riddle me this, in Acts 2, there are the descendants of Abraham gathered together. The holy spirit enters the room and we read "each man heard [the gospel] in their own tongue." Now if all of these people were locals (residing in and about Judah) why did they need to hear the gospel in something other than the local Aramaic? Answer: Because they were from points all around the known world. God divinely gathered them together to hear the gospel preached so that they could take it back to their homes and evangelize their own people, that is how we read in Collosians 1 where the whole world heard the Gospel preached.
Making up "truth" is no replacement for the Truth.
Yeh right!!!
I guess that's what Jesus should have called the Apostles' question to Him in Acts 1:6 regarding the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel [after 40 days of teaching them on the subject of the Kingdom of God] instead of telling them that the time for it's restoration was not yet but was in His Father's hands, O Theophilus.
BTW -- Welcome to Freerepublic.
Uncle Chip,
It should be rather clear by now that this nineteenth century invention that the Gentile-only church is some sort of Plan B by God is a thin veneer to cover the old Jewish misunderstanding of God.
The Jews and Dispensationalists both want:
Am I missing anything here? Am I mischaracterizing both what the OT Jews and the modern Darbyites fantasize?
Those of us, the theophilus, understand that God's Kingdom has been fulfilled, the last enemy is Death, our LORD entered the Holy Place once for all in a temple not built with human hands (Hebrews 9) and He presently reigns over all Creation. Its the Dispensationalists that categorically reject all of this NT teaching and yearn for a return to the shadows and corrupted things.
Here is the problem with your question. It does not address the fact that these folks were Jews.....and not people of the dispersed northern ten tribes.....which are (and never were) called (in scripture) Jews!
Here is Young's Literal translation for your passage: [Acts 2:5] And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven,
2453. Ioudaios (ee-oo-dah'-yos) from Iouda (in the sense of Ioudas as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah
This is the mistake some folks constantly make. The Northern Ten Tribes were not Jewish. Yes....they were Israelites and so are Jews.....(one of the original twelve tribes), but the Northern Kingdom was never considered Jewish! Only the descendants of Judah, Benjamin and Levi are ever referred to as Jews in scripture.
Here is what Justin Martyr says in the second century: ************************************************************
[First Apology, Chapter XXXII] CHRIST PREDICTED BY MOSES. Moses then, who was the first of the prophets, spoke in these very words: "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He come for whom it is reserved; and He shall be the desire of the nations, binding His foal to the vine, washing His robe in the blood of the grape." It is yours to make accurate inquiry, and ascertain up to whose time the Jews had a lawgiver and king of their own. Up to the time of Jesus Christ, who taught us, and interpreted the prophecies which were not yet understood, [they had a lawgiver] as was foretold by the holy and divine Spirit of prophecy through Moses, "that a ruler would not fail the Jews until He should come for whom the kingdom was reserved" (for Judah was the forefather of the Jews, from whom also they have their name of Jews); and after He (i.e., Christ) appeared, you began to rule the Jews, and gained possession of all their territory. And the prophecy, "He shall be the expectation of the nations," signified that there would be some of all nations who should look for Him to come again. And this indeed you can see for yourselves, and be convinced of by fact. For of all races of men there are some who look for Him who was crucified in Judaea, and after whose crucifixion the land was straightway surrendered to you as spoil of war. And the prophecy, "binding His foal to the vine, and washing His robe in the blood of the grape," was a significant symbol of the things that were to happen to Christ, and of what He was to do. For the foal of an ass stood bound to a vine at the entrance of a village, and He ordered His acquaintances to bring it to Him then; and when it was brought, He mounted and sat upon it, and entered Jerusalem, where was the vast temple of the Jews which was afterwards destroyed by you. And after this He was crucified, that the rest of the prophecy might be fulfilled. For this "washing His robe in the blood of the grape" was predictive of the passion He was to endure, cleansing by His blood those who believe on Him. For what is called by the Divine Spirit through the prophet "His robe," are those men who believe in Him in whom abideth the seed of God, the Word. And what is spoken of as "the blood of the grape," signifies that He who should appear would have blood, though not of the seed of man, but of the power of God. And the first power after God the Father and Lord of all is the Word, who is also the Son; and of Him we will, in what follows, relate how He took flesh and became man. For as man did not make the blood of the vine, but God, so it was hereby intimated that the blood should not be of human seed, but of divine power, as we have said above. And Isaiah, another prophet, foretelling the same things in other words, spoke thus: "A star shall rise out of Jacob, and a flower shall spring from the root of Jesse; and His arm shall the nations trust." And a star of light has arisen, and a flower has sprung from the root of Jesse--this Christ. For by the power of God He was conceived by a virgin of the seed of Jacob, who was the father of Judah, who, as we have shown, was the father of the Jews; and Jesse was His forefather according to the oracle, and He was the son of Jacob and Judah according to lineal descent. ************************************************************
Now.....I don't have to be reminded that Justin is not scripture......but some folks have just got to get it together on this issue because it's so obvious where the misunderstanding comes from.
I haven’t found very much about this topic in the scriptures, but your logic and the verses you mention concerning some of the Northern Israelites living in the Southern Judah are certainly verified in 2 Chron 11. I also noticed that Paul in Romans 11:1 says he’s from Benjamin but in Acts 21:39 he also calls himself a Jew, which seems to verify what you say about Benjamin and Levi all becoming called Jews. My opinion is they called themselves Jews because they were living or were residents of the nation or house of Judah. That would be similar to me saying that I am French since I am of French ancestry, but I am an American because of my nationality or residency. Interesting topic, but not much Biblical or other historical info about this. Thanks.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
An observation in your last two posts:
Yet another absurdity of the Theory of Dispensationalism: If the Levites are one of the "Lost Ten Tribes" who are considered "Gentiles", then the Levites cannot enter in to the temple and are confined to the "Court of the Gentiles". Good luck with getting into the Holy Place.
Also, I hope that they are not confining that DNA testing to only Levites, for according to Ezekiel 40:46, these fellas are required to be "sons of Zadok". This may required a creative use of the Bible Codes to help sift through the DNA signatures to find the right ones. Its been quite a while since the Babylonian Exile.
You will have to do better than that -- like deal with the meaning of those words of Jesus and the Apostles in Acts 1 regarding the time of the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel.
The Lord did help me, that's why I reject the dispensationalistic interpretation (rather, the esegesis that they do).
Here is the problem with your question. It does not address the fact that these folks were Jews.....and not people of the dispersed northern ten tribes.....which are (and never were) called (in scripture) Jews!
Sadly, you are very much misinformed. I have a few days' worth of reading on just the various renderings of the word "Jew" in the OT and by each of the authors of the NT. The scholarly debate on John's use of it alone is itself lengthy. If it was bundled up so simply as you state, well...
Without going into the boring academic (unless you really want to go there), I want to question your fundamentals regarding this red herring of the "lost ten tribes". First I want to point out that it is silly because no one knows what happened to the ten lost tribes, and this is yet another marketing opportunity for the Prophecy Hucksters to exploit. For generations, scholars have been fascinated by the intellectual pursuit of these folks. It seems that everyone wants to be a member of one of the lost tribes. I can name dozens of ethnic groups and regional cultures who claim some link. Heck, the Afghanistan people have this believable tale of intrigue that lays claim to being one of the lost tribes.
First of all, Judah, Benjamin, Levi and a remnant of Simeon were loyal to Reheboam and stayed in the Southern Kingdom. In 2 Chron 5:9, we read that the Joseph tribes (Mannaseh and Ephraim) joined up with even more of Simeon and fled into Judah during Asa's reign. In 30:1-11 we read that those not taken captive by the Assyrians (20% taken?) Dan, Ephraim, Manasseh, Asher and Zebulun went to Jerusalem. Careful analysis will show you that when the northern kingdom was being plundered the southern kingdom grew by five times. Any guess who might have moved there?
The point being, is that the ten tribes weren't lost, a remnant of each of them found their way into Judah, so they were there during the fun of the Babylon siege, captivity and thereafter.
As for the text of Acts 2, I am disappointed in that you didn't bother to really read it. Here is what I found: v5 "Judeans dwelling in Jerusalem", v10 "Jews and proselytes", v14 "Men of Judea...", v22 "Men of Israel", v29,37 "Men and bretheren...of the patriarch David" (remember David ruled over all tribes). Then we have this statement: v36 "Let all the house of Israel know...". Wern't there two Kingdoms? Judea and what was that other one? Hmmm.. The one in the north that had the other nine... Oh, right, "Israel".
I await your response. :)
So you say. Where, specifically is there a mischaracterization ? Waving it off without explanation isn't a recognized technique in discussion. Otherwise, it is safe to assume that you concede the argument and plead "no contest".
Where???? It is in your inability to deal with what I just said about the words of Jesus and the Apostles in Acts 1 regarding the time of the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel.
Waving it off without explanation isn't a recognized technique in discussion.
like the way you waved off the words of Jesus and the Apostles about the time of the restoration of the Kingdome of Israel in Acts 1.
Otherwise, it is safe to assume that you concede the argument and plead "no contest".
Oh get over yourself. So it is safe for me to assume the same???
Don't throw your prejudiced strawman judgments out there and expect others to spend all their valuable time dissecting them for you.
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