Posted on 06/18/2010 2:43:23 AM PDT by markomalley
Maybe that's precisely the reason why there are a lot more Christians then Noahides.
Um . . . the Noachide Laws are named for Noach, under whose covenant we still live to this day.
You forget that Cain killed Abel, and for 130 years (until the birth of Seth) the only human beings in the world (aside from Adam and Eve themselves) were the descendants of Cain. True, only eight (nine if you count `Og) were saved from the Flood, but why blame G-d's Laws for the fact that people didn't obey them?
If you're going to judge the Noachide Laws a failure because of how humanity turned out, then J*sus was certainly a failure as well. He lived two thousand years ago and look what's happened!
I know that people have a lot of different theories on this, but who do you think was the mother/mothers of Cain's children?
::Facepalm:: Duh! His twin sister!
Why do so many people have a problem with Cain marrying his sister when Adam's children were the only people in existence?
I don't have a problem with this. Where do you see that she was his twin?
If you read here, you will see that the Catholic position is that she was his sister (though it makes no mention of a twin):
http://drbo.org/chapter/01004.htm
I have just always wondered why there was no mention of Adam having a daughter (or maybe there was and I missed it).
I’ve always been somewhat intrigued by the theories that Cain never died (though I know that many believe that the man killed in Genesis 4:23 is Cain) and still wanders the earth.
But how is Jesus a faliure?
Christianity is the largest faith in the world, and it has especially grown in Asian and African Countries.....
Human Beings are stubborn have the potential to embrace all the 7 deadly sins at any time in their life on earth.
Pride is excessive belief in one’s own abilities, that interferes with the individual’s recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.
Envy is the desire for others’ traits, status, abilities, or situation.
Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.
Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.
Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.
Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.
Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.
The problem I see with Noahide and Orthodox Judaism, although I think people who believe this way are proably wonderful great individuals.. not perfect but GOD abiding.
I don’t see the *Heart of GOD* in religious doctrine
or Orthodoxy Judaism...
Put it this way.....Before Jesus came...How did the Pharisees look at other’s? Why did they seperate, ignore, even kill the *Ones* who were sick, lepors, samaritans, etc.
They were great with all this *Religious Doctrine* and trying to be *Acceptable* to GOD with there works, but where was the LOVE of GOD in there life? Read the Tanakh which I know you have, much violence in there....
Christinaity flourished because People could have a real live personal experience with GOD through the Holy Spirit.
Where there was Hate people found Love in Christ
Where there was hopelessness people found hope in Christ
Where there was selfishness people found being self less in Christ
Where people were trapped by addiction, lust and ego, people found *Freedom* in Christ.
Where there was sickness people found healing in Christ.
*The *LAW* of GOD brings *Order* to a world where *Chaos* would be the norm....
I love GOD not because of his LAWS but because of his LOVE
which penetrates my heart, consummes my mind, and gives me PEACE that surpasses all Man’s understanding.
ZC,
Did you ever feel the Love of the Holy Spirit when you were a Christian?
Christianity is the largest faith in the world, and it has especially grown in Asian and African Countries.....
First, you said the Noachide Laws were a failure because mankind had to be destroyed in the Flood (though the Noachide Laws, as such, were not given until after the Flood). If you're going to judge the Noachide Laws by the moral chaos of that period, you'll have to judge J*sus by the moral chaos of this period.
And there's no such thing as a single chr*stian religion. There are zillions and zillions of religions that call themselves "chr*stian," having absolutely nothing whatsoever in common but a vocabulary--and even then, the words don't mean the same.
Human Beings are stubborn have the potential to embrace all the 7 deadly sins at any time in their life on earth.
And you think this discovery is original on your part? You've obviously never read the Prayer of Solomon in which he mentioned that there is no one who doesn't sin.
BTW, without those laws you so look down on there would be no such thing as sin.
Pride is excessive belief in one’s own abilities, that interferes with the individual’s recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.
Judaism/Noachism is not a "salvational" religion at all, so you can drop the "unless you accept J*sus you'll never be good enough to get into Heaven" stuff. It is a statutory religion. The afterlife in Judaism is a much more esoteric doctrine than it is in chr*stianity. The world was created for the specific purpose of the Jewish People observing Torah, which affects all the spiritual plains. Every mitzvah unleashes positive forces and every sin unleashes negative forces.
Envy is the desire for others’ traits, status, abilities, or situation.
Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.
Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.
Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.
Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.
Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.
The problem I see with Noahide and Orthodox Judaism, although I think people who believe this way are proably wonderful great individuals.. not perfect but GOD abiding.
I don’t see the *Heart of GOD* in religious doctrine or Orthodoxy Judaism...
Unfortunately, whether or not you see the "Heart of G-d" is immaterial.
Put it this way.....Before Jesus came...How did the Pharisees look at other’s? Why did they seperate, ignore, even kill the *Ones* who were sick, lepors, samaritans, etc.
Where in the world did you ever get the idea that Orthodox Judaism commands the killing of sick people? That isn't more of that "Judaeo-Masonry" stuff, is it?
What is translated "leprosy" in the English Bible isn't Hansen's disease (leprosy) at all, but tzara`at, a supernatural punishment for slander. And it wasn't catching; it merely rendered the victim ritually impure, and ritual impurity is catching. People didn't die from tzara`at; they merely had to perform the correct rituals when it went away.
They were great with all this *Religious Doctrine* and trying to be *Acceptable* to GOD with there works, but where was the LOVE of GOD in there life? Read the Tanakh which I know you have, much violence in there....
So you're sitting in judgment on the Word of G-d because you think it's too "violent?" Now you're the one who sounds like a liberal. Don't liberals say that the Biblical G-d was so "mean?"
And I fail to see the difference between the "works" of the Torah and Noachism and the works of chr*stianity (masses, rituals, confessions, rosaries, novenas, holidays, fastings, pilgrimages, holy wars, etc.) except for the fact that the works of Torah and Noachism come from the Mouth of G-d but those of chr*stianity were made up by men who adapted them from pagan religions!
Christinaity flourished because People could have a real live personal experience with GOD through the Holy Spirit.
I'm sorry, but as kosta told us chr*stianity flourished because it was imposed on people by force and then maintained the same way (Spanish Inquisition, etc.).
Where there was Hate people found Love in Christ Where there was hopelessness people found hope in Christ Where there was selfishness people found being self less in Christ
Where people were trapped by addiction, lust and ego, people found *Freedom* in Christ. Where there was sickness people found healing in Christ.
*The *LAW* of GOD brings *Order* to a world where *Chaos* would be the norm....
I love GOD not because of his LAWS but because of his LOVE which penetrates my heart, consummes my mind, and gives me PEACE that surpasses all Man’s understanding.
What you're saying is basically you don't understand my religion and you're going to keep after me until one of the two of us is converted. Is that it?
I can't help what your experiences have been. I don't live my life by your experiences. As a matter of fact, experiences are subjective. All kinds of people can have different experiences of the same thing (I never knew peace as a chr*stian; only after accepting G-d's Laws was I finally able to rest). Perhaps you need to re-read the commandment against following one's heart?
What we go by is G-d's Revelation. The only time that G-d spoke to an entire nation at once (G-d--not someone claiming he spoke for G-d or someone claiming to be G-d, G-d forbid!) was at Mt. Sinai. That is the Ultimate Revelation. No other religion in history has ever stood, or shall ever stand, on such a strong, objective footing.
That you find J*sus attractive has nothing to do with it. Santa Claus is pretty attractive too, but he doesn't exist.
I stand with the G-d Who spoke at Sinai, as experienced by three million people. I reject all other religions based on all other revelations altogether.
ZC,
Did you ever feel the Love of the Holy Spirit when you were a Christian?
Which kind? A Fundamentalist Protestant? A Catholic? When I was attending an Armenian church?
What you don't realize is that feelings don't matter. I KNOW that the G-d of Israel historically spoke to that nation. THAT is what matters.
I am not the one who picked this quarrel. Why does my belief upset you so much? Why am I any worse than a Catholic, an Eastern Orthodox, or a mormon? I advise you to argue with them and straighten out the various chr*stian divisions before you begin arguing with me.
Hm. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The truth about Jesus. Pretty good summary in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds (Link).
Is that pretty close to what you have in mind?
Cordially,
No, not really. You’ve described where the gospel is unveiled, and the Person who embodies the gospel, but you haven’t explained what Roman Catholics consider to be “the gospel.” I’m thinking maybe a sentence or two summarizing the RC understanding of “the gospel.”
I can think of other, shorter summaries, which are not identical, but which do express facets of the Gospel:
I'm interested in your views on this.
At the RCIA Open House there were a large number of people that had an interest. They were people who had learned of the Church through family or friends. They just suddenly had questions and wanted to learn more. Same way my 10 year old said, “I want to get baptized in your church.” Which is why we will be taking the classes..
I guess I was looking for something very specific like, “Jesus, the incarnation of God Himself, lived a perfectly sinless life and through His sacrificial death reconciled to Himself those whom He has chosen and called, who have placed their faith in Him.”
Or something like that. It’s kind of clumsy the way I put it.
The gospel lays out what Jesus has accomplished, and how we might become adopted into His family. We really should try to clearly convey that gospel; vagueness isn’t helpful.
Just wanted to see what Roman Catholics emphasize in their understanding of the gospel. And better understand why Roman Catholics either evangelize or don’t evangelize those currently bound for hell.
ZC,
First off I am not quarreling with you? nor am I trying to convert you or judge you, just trying to understand one person’s faith to another, so please don’ read into things that are not there or that you imagine.
And you are correct, there are many versions of the Christian Faith..But Jesus the Christ had one message that he is the Lamb of GOD who takes away the Sins of the World and through his atoning blood sacrafice we could all (Jew and Gentile) could be reconciled to a Holy Just GOD.
I realize many have changed, tweeked, doctrine to satisfy there own religious dogma.
Judaism in itself is a religion based on Torah not perfection as we know the Jewish People have been punished numerous times in the Bible due to there dis-obedience. However GOD chose the Jews to give them his inspired word, the Holy Bible, the Law, Jesus Christ ands the Gospels ALL based, planted and rooted in *Judaism*
You are interested in the Legalism of GOD I believe, and I am concerned with the Love of GOD. Liberal? ME hardly...However I speak to many young atheists who not only reject GOD but HATE GOD with a ungodly passion because of the Old Testament, and when I speak to them about the Love of GOD, the love and sacrafice of Jesus Christ the hope in him that is where I see a *SOFTENING* of there heart.
My parents wanted me to obey them but first they wanted me to love them, and that love was prompted me to want to obey them..Does GOD want anything less from his children?
People change because of LOVE not because of LAW..The LAW just forces people to do what is right when they don’t want to....
I don’t need any religion to find the beauty, the love the Peace in GOD, I find it in my heart and how I respond to the world and other’s.
That is how I think Heaven is, and where I hope to go when I leave this world....
Catholics (like me) who fail to evangelize, fail to do so because of sin. Namely--- taking an inner inventory --- Pride, Anger, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Avarice, and especially Sloth.
Yup, I hear you. I share the same sin.
People change because of LOVE not because of LAW
"And thou shalt love the L-rd they G-d with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy might."
Let us conclude our conversation at this point of agreement.
Be well.
Amen ZC!
Blessings to you!
Peace and Shalom..:)
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