Posted on 06/18/2010 2:43:23 AM PDT by markomalley
I don't have "my own" history ZC. I have no theology to defend, no official truth to peddle. I am a skeptic because I know men habitually lie and distort things to promote their own agenda.
I also don't go by 'heard otherwise" because to me that is, well, hearsay, in other words worthless. If you have documented evidence that the Jews were actively converting pagans to Noachide laws I would be happy to see it. However, I doubt that such efforts had significant results or otherwise it wouldn't be such an obscure headline.
[Kosta: Judaism is alien to every other nation. It is the ultimate xenophobic religion. It is only for the Jews]
ZC: Having G-d associated in an especial way with one nation is the only way to assure universality and objectivity [sic]
Universality, I can see that, but not "objectivity."
All "universal" religions degenerate into localized tribal religions.
Judaism was not a monolithic faith, and isn't even today. Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism some 400 years before Christ, and then was further split into religious political factions following the Maccabean Revolt and the events that preceded it.
The very acceptance of evil as not being directly caused and ordained by God as punishment for nonobservance and idolatry was a major development in the Jewish way of thinking that radically differs from Judaism preceding the Maccabean Revolt.
Along with apocalypticism of the time came the belief in the resurrection of the dead, an alien concept to the Judaism of Moses.
What you call Judaism today is but a vestige of only one political religious (man-made) faction that survived — the Pharisees, who monopolized Judaism as their own (because they could).
And even that does not guarantee "universalism." The only thing Judaism shares universally is its rejection of Jesus as being either divine or the messiah.
I can't argue with that, but one's faith is not in the manner (custom) of worship but in the substance of worship. Which is why the Church has theology and catechism, so that everyone around the world believes in the same thing regardless of how they worship or what language they worship in. You will not find any difference in the theology of any Orthodox Church or of the Catholic Church Churches in communion with Rome.
Judaism and Protestantism don't have a magisterium to ensure uniformity of belief. Judaism and Protestantism pretty much share the idea that each man is his own "pope." Ask any Jew what he or she believes about afterlife and you will probably get as many different answers as the number of people you ask. Ask a Protestant what is meant by "rewards" in heaven and you will get the same variety.
So, there is no universality let alone objectivity when it comes to subjective beliefs that require axiomatic, a priori acceptance of things "unseen."
The only way to ensure that the One True G-d is to be worshiped is to have Him worshiped explicitly as the Jewish G-d
I can see that being an axiomatic truth for the Jews, but how does that apply to the Gentiles? It requires conviction that the God of Israel is the one true God. Based on what? A book written by the Jews, for the Jews and about the Jews?
The True G-d will be acknowledged by what amounts to Jewish spiritual conquest of the world
Which is is precisely why the Evangelicals aggressively proselytize and why the Muslims believe that the whole world should be Muslim. The idea is the same, Jews, Christians and Muslims all claim to believe in the same God of Abraham, except that their idea of how this God of theirs will be acknowledged as the "True God" differs.
The Jews believe the meshiyah will demonstrate the power of the Hebrew God by defeating all Jewish enemies (victories were always attributed to God's favor). Which hardly constitutes a "spiritual" conquest.
The Evangelical Christians believe it is their duty to preach and win people over with promises of salvation and rewards in heaven, and the Muslims simply believe that God of Abraham left it to them to bring the world to believe in him either through willing conversion and by eliminating those who believe in a different God.
Much of the Muslim way of thinking is in line with the Jewish scripture's prescribed treatment of nations that worship idols. So, you can't say the Muzzies reinvented the wheel. They are just doing what God directed the Israelites to do with those pesky Canaanites and anyone like them.
Thus, the "people of the Book" (Jews and Christians) can be spared until they accept Islam, but others have to be converted or die.
Now that we have almost 3 billion Christians, and 1.2 billion Muslims, we can safely say that the Jewish "spiritual conquest" is about half way there...for what it's worth.
Nope. "Conquest" meaning giving up all other religions whatsoever and observing only the Noachide Laws--a spiritual "colony," if you will.
Well, first, that's not the meaning of the the word 'conquest' and, second, why should anyone drop their rleigion and embrace the religion (God) prescribed by the Jews?
Spiritual conquest.
and, second, why should anyone drop their rleigion and embrace the religion (God) prescribed by the Jews?
You do remember that I'm a fundie, right? So when I tell you it's because it's true and that's what G-d mandates, perhaps you'll pretend that you understand.
And again, the non-Jews will not adopt Judaism--they'll adopt the Seven Noachide Laws. But this will still require the jettisoning of chr*stianity, islam, or any other religion.
So ZC,
Do you think GOD has a religion?
Do you think Angels have a Religion?
Do you think Religion exists in heaven?
Do you think if Life exists beyond our’s they have a religion? or practice Orthodoxy Judaism?
What is the point of GOD keeping people entrapped in *Religion* when they can be free and all Knowing in GOD’s wisdom in Perfection when he free’s the world from evil, physical death and im-perfection?
Lastly..Do you think it was GOD’s intention to have a religion for the First Man and Woman created...
Thank you in advance for your reply.....
Yes.
Yes to all what I asked?
Tara . . . our worldviews are so far about that we can’t even have a conversation. Why do you care what I believe?
IMO Noahide Laws or Noahidism is not really different from
Orthodox Judaism, as you cannot undrstand love and Grace from GOD unless you go deeper into hebrew scriptures, and that is why I think most Pagans were never interested in the Noahide Laws....
Since GOD is LOVE first before he is a Teacher of Philosophy, Law and Physics, people were looking for the *Love of GOD* and how that could impact there broken lives
and that is why Jesus came for the lame, the sick, the Lepors the ones that were considered (Un-important) by the Jewish Teachers of the *Law*
What makes people want GOD is Love not Law, but when you convert your heart twoards GOD’s love then your conversion prompts you to do his law out of Love not a robotic mind.
That's just my point, CZ. What is "spiritual" about the meshiyah warrior king defeating Israel's enemies and convincing the world the God of Israel is one true God? It seems more like might-is-right type of "spirituality."
You do remember that I'm a fundie, right? So when I tell you it's because it's true and that's what G-d mandates, perhaps you'll pretend that you understand.
But you are not a fundie, ZC. You used to be. You left Christianity and now you don't have a religion to be identified with. Now you simply follow the Noachide laws as a righteous ("acceptable") Gentile who gets—as I see it—to enjoy the crumbs of Judaism.
And again, the non-Jews will not adopt Judaism--they'll adopt the Seven Noachide Laws. But this will still require the jettisoning of chr*stianity, islam, or any other religion
That's about as believable as saying the Jews will convert to Christ at the very last moment...
I care about how other’s feel and think even when that differs 100% from what I believe....
I talk to many Atheists, sometimes I am attacked beyond compare, however sometimes I see a hardcore atheist come to know kindness and love of GOD and that one person makes it all the worth while..
I am not trying to change what you believe, just understand it....
Healthy Dialogue in religion I have never shyed away from I embrace it...
The Jewish Scriptures are primarily for Jews. Non-Jews are forbidden to "delve deeply" into any part of Torah other than what they are commanded in the Noachide Laws. As a matter of fact, the translation of the Hebrew Bible into another language for the first time is actually one of the things mourned on `Asarah BeTevet.
Your chr*stian terms and assumptions simply do not apply. I'm sorry if you can't understand that, but that's the way it is. The Torah is not a reaction to the sin of Adam; it preceded the Creation by 974 generations (and no, I do not understand it either). The universe is entirely derivative from the Torah. Basically, the world was created so the Jews could observe the Torah. That's quite a difference from the chr*stian conception of the Torah as a reaction to the sin of Adam and as a "foreshadowing" of chr*stianity.
While there is certainly such a thing as "grace" I am not at all sure that it is identical to the chr*stian concept of "grace," which has so many assumptions built into it of "the devil" taking over the world, G-d having to buy it back (???), and people born in slavery to the devil and not having a relationship with G-d at all until they are "born again." The whole concept of G-d having an enemy of evil counterpart of some kind is alien to the Jewish worldview. It isn't even monotheistic.
I don't know if I can explain anything in a way that you will understand it. I've been a Noachide for twenty years and am still learning. All I can say is that your chr*stian assumptions simply do not apply.
Is that enough?
So may I ask you, how does a Noahide find the Love of GOD in the 7 Noahide Laws?
Also are you saying GOD is about Law for human beings first before anything else?
You said you still are learning after 20 years....Is GOD’s intention to make it that difficult for human beings to have a relationship with him?
Again I don’t mean to frustrate you, just understand what you are saying....
There is a very big difference. Noahide laws are for the non-Jews. Judaism is only for the Jews. Different laws; different standards.
What makes people want GOD is Love not Law...
According to the Jewish Bible (aka the Old Testament), God wanted specific people for himself, not the other way around.
SO why does GOD need any Gentiles at all?
Why doesn’t he just keep the Jews and destroy all the Gentiles?
What do you mean I don't have a religion to be identified with? Noachism is a religion. It is the "one true religion" of all non-Jews. The fact that most people have never heard of it doesn't change a thing.
I am a "fundie" because I regard religious truth as factual truth. It isn't some "special" type of truth that is removed from the rest of reality--some sort of allegoric or parabolic truth or something like that. At basis that is what fundamentalism is: the acceptance of the facticity of religious truth. Plus of course there's the fact that I believe the Torah is actually true and corresponds to reality in history and science as well as "religion."
I simply do not understand why people have such a hard time accepting that Noachism is G-d's authorized religion for all non-Jewish humanity. For some reason the rest of you seem to think it's a sort of "second class" something or other. Do you think that every Catholic/Orthodox chr*stian is supposed to be a priest/bishop/monk/nun? Do you think the laity is picking up the crumbs from the only people G-d really cares about? The Jewish People are simply the clergy of the human race. Naturally they have special rules that apply to them just as people in "holy orders" have extra rules to follow. But without a laity a priesthood means nothing, and Israel's priesthood would mean nothing without the rest of the human race over which to sere as priests.
What's the deal? Does it bother you that for the first time in my life I am satisfied and all my questions (the ones for which answers exist in this life) have been answered? What you see as an "unnatural" existence as a Noachide (neither Jewish nor any other religion) is in fact what G-d wills for all non-Jewish humanity. If you can't grasp that then I can't help you.
I'm sorry, but chr*stianity has never been anything other than a big disappointment in all its forms. Fundamentalist Protestantism demands a mystical "new birth" that one can never be sure he has experienced (if you've had it you'll know, but you can not have it and think you do!) and liturgical chr*stianity is too blasted strange for anything (I'm sorry, but none of it makes any sense, and as a non-Irish/Italian/Greek/Russian/whatever I always felt like a stranger who was more tolerated than anything else). Why you can't see such things in chr*stianity and insist on seeing it in Noachism I don't know, other than you had the happy accident of being born into the "family." What's the difference between subservience to the traditional chr*stian ethnic groups and subservience to Israel? I'm sorry; I choose the latter. If that offends you, there really isn't anything I can do about it other than not care.
Why doesn’t he just keep the Jews and destroy all the Gentiles?
::facepalm::
Okay. I'm out of this conversation. Bye-bye.
According to the Bible all humans are God's creatures, made in his image, but not necessarily his chosen people. He eternally wants Gentiles to live by and obey the Noahide laws. That is part of the Covenant he made with Noah after the Flood for "for all future generations." (Gen 9:12)
Then, later own, for other reasons, God selected Jews to be his priestly nation.
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