Lutheran (EL
* as of August 19, AD 2009, a liberal protestant SECT, not part of the holy, catholic and apostolic CHURCH.
Be rooted in Christ!
Posted on 06/25/2010 8:00:38 PM PDT by SmithL
Church members cried, argued and finally, after nine months of dissolving ties with the largestLutheran denomination in the country, the members of Zion Lutheran Church in Mission Valley believe they are home.
"When you have faith, it doesn't mean that things are easy." said Henry Wood, the church council president. "We're taking a step in the direction of what the church once was."
Ninety-five percent of the Zion Lutheran Church voted to sever ties with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in September, a month after the denomination approved a controversial social statement on same-sex relationships.
"What they did was to throw the authority of scripture under the bus," said the Rev. David Couchman, pastor of Zion Lutheran.
The church was the first to leave after the ELCA approved the statement, which allows churches to "recognize, support and hold publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships."
A separate resolution also addressed finding a way for people in those relationships to serve as rostered leaders.
Those at Zion Lutheran hold that sexuality was not the issue.
Couchman, who follows church political actions with watchful eyes, believes the denomination put themselves above scripture.
"It's not a gay issue," he said. "The issue is the challenge the ELCA put forward to the authority of scripture, and when the assembly voted on this gay issue, they effectively raised themselves above scriptural authority. That was the straw that broke the camel's back for us."
What's happened at Zion Lutheran is a part of a national trend.
As of June 1, 140 churches - a handful of which are local - have broken away from the ELCA, said Bishop Ray Tiemann of the Southwest Texas Synod.
Churches in Port Lavaca, Tivoli, Yorktown and Yoakum have also taken their first steps to leave. St. Andrew EvangelicalLutheran Church in Weesatche has completely left.
Nationwide, the ELCA is working to revise its budget, citing church departures as one reason for a $4.6 million decrease in mission support funds, according to an ELCA news release.
The process to leave the ELCA is complicated and churches risk losing their buildings if they don't pick another Lutheran body to join.
On June 13, Zion Lutheran completed the journey and settled on the conservative Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - which does not ordain women.
"We wanted to get to a place where we felt secure, where we would tell our congregation, 'look, you won't have to do this 20 years from now,'" Couchman said. "They actually believe what scripture says and they go by it. Therefore, there are restrictions."
The Lutheran Church - Missouri Senate, the second-largest Lutheran body in North America, received about 50 inquires from churches looking for new homes since the controversial statement by the ELCA.
The Lutheran Congregations in Missions for Christ more than doubled its numbers with 241 new congregations, who mostly all cited leaving the ELCA.
"The ELCA has decidedly made some decisions as an organization that have created the feeling from some of its membership that they have left scripture behind in favor of culture norms," said Sharon MacFadyen, administrative coordinator with the denomination.
Ripples of the social statement continue to be felt, but at First English Lutheran Church in Victoria, it has not divided the church enough for the congregation to leave.
"While there are people who aren't necessarily happy with what happened at this point, we are not ready to move," said the Rev. Jerry Wirtley, church pastor.
Wirtley cited the ELCA's established disaster response and world mission projects as the biggest reasons for staying.
"The ELCA as a whole has done wonderful ministry and keeps moving forward," he said. "That's not to say that we agree. We don't see eye-to-eye on everything with everything that happens, but the church keeps moving forward and doing ministry."
Zion Lutheran completed the journey and settled on the conservative Lutheran Church - Missouri SynodMaybe over 50 congregations have inquired about the LCMS, this is the first I'm aware of that actually moved to the Missouri Synod.
“The ELCA as a whole has done wonderful ministry and keeps moving forward,” he said. “That’s not to say that we agree. We don’t see eye-to-eye on everything with everything that happens, but the church keeps moving forward and doing ministry.”
My take for layman: “They don’t believe in God or the Bible but they are just sooooo nice!
Mel
And the Lickety Split continues...
hooray for yet another victory of sola scriptura...</sarcasm>
* as of August 19, AD 2009, a liberal protestant SECT, not part of the holy, catholic and apostolic CHURCH.
Be rooted in Christ!
Welcome to the LCMS. I worry about your migration to us the same way that conservative towns are wary about California transplants.
Are many Lutherans moving over to Catholcism? Just curious.
Not this one. During confirmation we learn much about Martin Luther and his attempt to fix the corruption within the Catholic Church at that time. Indulgences and such. I can only speak for myself when I say that I need no human to intercede between myself and my Lord.
The paying for indulgences was wrong.
But, tell me now, have you never asked anyone to pray for you?
Sounds like you might not believe in prayer.
**The paying for indulgences was wrong.**
BTW, that is not how indulgences work today.
Now, it’s the ELCA that’s peddling its own indulgences, so to speak.
Hold on their a minute. You just took a monumental jump there. I was referring to confession. No where did I mention prayer. I have many people praying for me. I need it.
I’m not Catholic.
“Nationwide, the ELCA is working to revise its budget, citing church departures as one reason for a $4.6 million decrease in mission support funds, according to an ELCA news release.”
So an “evangelical” church can no longer afford to evangelize because they made a PC social agenda their priority.
They’ve lost the vision.
Thank you! Fortunately, my LCMS church was not quite so reserved in it's welcome to us two years ago.
And I would think that conservative towns would welcome people from CA who left because they were sick of liberal politics and spending and who understood where that path leads. Many of us leaving the ELCA find great relief, even joy, in a church that is unafraid to stand on the Word and the Confessions and are eager to protect rather than undermine that stand.
Not to mention that I found a few of the more liberal movers and shakers in the ELCA to be former LCMS. Go figure.
That only took five hundred years.
Sounds like you might not believe in prayer.
You have nailed it, Lutheran aversion to indulgences sold by the Catholic Church even though it was/is wrong, was really because Lutherans see no efficacy in prayer.
I wasn’t aware of that. True of all Lutherans? Or ELCA only?
ELCAspeak translation of "ministry": environmentalism, social "justice," eliminating all masculine pronouns in ELCA hymnbooks and liturgy, asserting that every other faith has equal validity with Christianity, etc., etc., ad apostasiam.
I don't think that conclusion is warranted. Martin Luther wouldn't have subscribed to it, in any event.
Martin Luther on prayer: EXCERPTS FROM TABLE TALK, 'EPISTLE SERMON, FOURTH SUNDAY IN ADVENT,' AND 'TREATISE ON GOOD WORKS'
Unceasing Prayer
There is no Christian who does not have time to pray without ceasing. But I mean the spiritual praying, that is; no one is so heavily burdened with his labor, but that if he will he can, while working, speak with God in his heart, lay before Him his need and that of other men, ask for help, make petition, and in all this exercise and strengthen his faith.
Praying in Faith
Prayer is a special exercise of faith. Faith makes the prayer acceptable because it believes that either the prayer will be answered, or that something better will be given instead. This is why James says, "Let him who asks of God not waver in faith, for if he wavers, let him not think that he shall receive anything from the Lord." This is a clear statement which says directly; he who does not trust will receive nothing, neither that which he asks nor anything better.
Laying the Need - Not Prescribing the Answer
From this it follows that the one who prays correctly never doubts that the prayer will be answered, even if the very thing for which one prays is not given. For we are to lay our need before God in prayer but not prescribe to God a measure, manner, time, or place. We must leave that to God, for he may wish to give it to us in another, perhaps better, way than we think is best. Frequently we do not know what to pray as St. Paul says in Romans 8, and we know that God's ways are above all that we can ever understand as he says in Ephesians 3. Therefore, we should have no doubt that our prayer is acceptable and heard, and we must leave to God the measure, manner, time, and place, for God will surely do what is right.
What a Great Gift We Have in Prayer
No one can believe how powerful prayer is and what it can effect, except those who have learned it by experience. It is important when we have a need to go to God in prayer. I know, whenever I have prayed earnestly, that I have been heard and have obtained more than I prayed for. God sometimes delays, hut He always comes.
It is amazing that a poor human creature is able to speak with God's high Majesty in heaven and not be afraid. When we pray, the heart and the conscience must not pull away from God because of our sins and our unworthiness, or stand in doubt, or be scared away. When we pray we must hold fast and believe that God has heard our prayer. It was for this reason that the ancients defined prayer as an Ascensus mentis ad Deum, "a climbing up of the heart unto God. "
This Lutheran believes in the power of prayer, as do most that I have encountered. I am not sure how you are arriving at that conclusion.
Who told you that?
Never heard anything like that in 51 years of being a Lutheran.
What an odd peripheral view! Never occurred to me that we didn’t believe in prayer! I was reared from my first breath in the (American Lutheran) Christian faith. I was always taught that people who bought indulgences were (pridefully, of one’s own strength) trying to purchase God’s favor and forgiveness instead of humbling oneself and asking the Father and trusting him to respond with abundant mercy and grace.
The Apology to the Augusburg Confession addresses this in ¶XXIV.93-96 (page 267 in the Tappert edition):
We know that the ancients spoke of prayer for the dead. We do not forbid this, but rather we reject the transfer of the Lord's Supper to the dead ex opera operato.
There are many references in the Book of Concord repudiating Masses and indulgences for the dead. The numbers refer to pages in the Tappert edition, followed by paragraph number:
58.22
184.15
251.11
261.64
265.89
278.53
294.12
I posted a somewhat tongue-in-cheek reply to the resident Catholic not figuring I needed a sarcasm tag
My last non-zot post:
The Semi-Permeable Membranes of the Various Protestantisms Thursday, June 17, 2010 9:29:31 PM · 230 of 283
xone to presently no screen name
Matthew 11
11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Where is John the Baptist's rosary? Or veneration? Jesus' mom didn't rate this from her Son.
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I apologize for the confusion.
Very instructive and helpful! Thank you for the references. Hubby has also responded to my “understanding” of indulgences by saying it was a much more complex issue, but he comes at it from a historical perspective.
I like learning that we can pray for the dead - that the Father listens. I’ve known Lutherans to use this issue to distinguish themselves from Catholics. In my heart I’ve wanted to do this as I remember. But until now I’ve found no definitive answer to that question from a Lutheran.
Thank you!
Ah, that’s my problem. I can’t tell the players without a denominational scorecard, so I often don’t see tongues protruding from cheeks.
It’s not like I ever got called out because someone didn’t recognize sarcasm.
pax
Sorry - now that you have pointed it out, it does look like sarcasm. ;-)
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