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How did Jacob see *GOD* Face to Face? Genesis 32:30
Vanity | July 5th, 2010 | TaraP

Posted on 07/05/2010 11:10:25 AM PDT by TaraP

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To: Tzfat
"There is no such word in the Hebrew text of Genesis 32:31..."

I was referring to verse 30.

51 posted on 07/05/2010 12:41:44 PM PDT by circlecity
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To: Guyin4Os

Yep - a growing exegetical problem with many who think they have really latched on to something.

The two words being compared and connected are in no-way connected in reality. Very dangerous method of “interpreting”...


52 posted on 07/05/2010 12:45:29 PM PDT by TheBattman (They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature...)
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To: Tzfat

Oh, OK. I know a lot of it from Show Business. It is an extremely colorful and expressive language, but it is, of course, the language of Diaspora, which, Thank G-d, is no more.

Leo Rosen wrote a book called “The Joys of Yiddish” which has a lot of very humorous stories and proverbs from the language.

A lot of American English words are from this rapidly disappearing language, and people don’t even realize it.

The word “Boss” is from Yiddish.
The word “OK” is from Lakota! (not my Tribe, but nearby!):-)

Shalom!


53 posted on 07/05/2010 12:46:22 PM PDT by left that other site (Your Mi'KMaq Paddy Whacky Bass Playing Biker Buddy)
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To: fish hawk
One possibility could be that we are made as a trinity: Body, Spirit, and Soul.

That would be the most logical and exegetically correct.

54 posted on 07/05/2010 12:48:03 PM PDT by TheBattman (They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature...)
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To: Greenbow

He saw Christ face to face, not the Father


55 posted on 07/05/2010 1:34:08 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Greenbow

Why is Everything blasphemy??

Do you even know the meaning?


56 posted on 07/05/2010 1:46:36 PM PDT by plinyelder ("I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born." -- Ronald Reagan)
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To: fish hawk

So many Christians are unaware that Christian theologists believe Jesus came many times to men in the OT.

He is usually described as “The Angel of the Lord”.

For instance, in the fire with Daniel. If you read the verses where it talks about this particular angel, you can usually see a verse or two down where the Angel will make or act as God, for instance, accepting worship, or declaring something only God can say.


57 posted on 07/05/2010 1:54:28 PM PDT by I still care (I believe in the universality of freedom -George Bush, asked if he regrets going to war.)
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To: TaraP
Because he did. So did others.

Gen. 32: 30 I have seen God face to face.
Ex. 3: 6 Moses . . . was afraid to look upon God.
Ex. 19: 11 Lord will come down in the sight of all the people.
Ex. 19: 21 charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze.
Ex. 24: 11 nobles of the children of Israel . . . saw God.
Ex. 33: 11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face.
Num. 12: 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth.
Deut. 34: 10 Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
Judg. 13: 22 We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
1 Kgs. 11: 9 Lord . . . had appeared unto him twice.
Isa. 6: 5 mine eyes have seen . . . the Lord.
Matt. 11: 27 Father . . . to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
John 14: 21 I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Acts 7: 56 I see . . . the Son of man standing on the right hand.
Heb. 12: 14 holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
1 Jn. 3: 2 we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Rev. 1: 17 when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.
Rev. 22: 4 they shall see his face.

58 posted on 07/05/2010 1:54:51 PM PDT by Ripliancum ("As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free")
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To: Greenbow

He, as so many others in the Old Testament accounts of history, saw the Second Person of the Trinity. It is called a Christophany.


59 posted on 07/05/2010 2:00:31 PM PDT by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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To: TaraP
“I am saying what Jesus said...
The Kingdom of GOD is within you and outside of you”

What Jesus said, in Greek, was “entoV umwn”, which Thayer’s and many translations read as “among you (plural)” or
“in your midst”, which agrees with the context and N.T. understanding of what the kingdom is.

60 posted on 07/05/2010 2:32:28 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: TaraP
Yes..because that is how we signal the Holy Spirit through prayer...

Through the pineal gland? Care to document that? This is nuts.

EPHESIANS 6:12
PSALM 139:

This gland is involved in the regulation of melatonin synthesis. It acts as a link between the nervous system and the endocrine (hormonal) system. A rhythmic melatonin signal from the pineal controls photoperiod (day length differences of summer and winter) responses in many species showing seasonal cycles in reproduction, moulting and other processes.

The biblical quotes don't have a thing to do with the pineal gland. And vice versa.

This is still nutty.

61 posted on 07/05/2010 2:37:23 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: TaraP

I know that I am saved. Are you?


62 posted on 07/05/2010 2:40:20 PM PDT by Greenbow (Trust in God.)
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To: Lee N. Field

What part of you connects with the *Spirit of GOD*?


63 posted on 07/05/2010 2:40:24 PM PDT by TaraP (He never offered our victories without fighting but he said help would always come in time)
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To: fish hawk
One possibility could be that we are made as a trinity: Body, Spirit, and Soul.

That's a reasonable conclusion, since it's true...

64 posted on 07/05/2010 2:41:10 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: plinyelder

Believing the truth of God as revealed through Scripture is not blasphemy. No one needs to know more than that.


65 posted on 07/05/2010 2:41:38 PM PDT by Greenbow (Trust in God.)
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To: Greenbow

Of course I know I am saved..Jesus Christ is my reedemer who I put all my trust and salvation into...


66 posted on 07/05/2010 2:41:42 PM PDT by TaraP (He never offered our victories without fighting but he said help would always come in time)
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To: Tzfat
Jacob said, "רָאִיתִי" [rayiti], which can mean, "I see, I behold, I perceive" etc. The word does not always mean to see with the eye.

The phrase "face to face" as it appears in your English Bible does NOT say that in Hebrew. It is NOT a mechanical translation as you imply. It is "פָּנִים אֶל־פָּנִים" [panyim-el panyim] which literally means: "sides to sides." The word "face" is not found in the Hebrew. Also, the word "panyim" here is is PLURAL, eg. "sides to sides." Even if it meant "face" it would be "faces to faces."

Lastly, the word "אֱ-הִים" [ekohim] often means "G0d" but is also used for angels.

Although many will agree that the translation of "I saw G0d face to face" is acceptible - it is NOT literal as you imply.

This is what the verse says in the English translation...

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

But since it's wrong, perhaps you would be willing to post the actual accurate verse translated from the accurate Hebrew into English so we could see what the sentence actually says...

The KJV translaters claim they used the same Hebrew words that are used in the Jewish Hebrew Bibles...And the Hebrew words don't match what you posted...

Perhaps you could tell us the source of your Hebrew words as well...

67 posted on 07/05/2010 2:54:18 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: RnMomof7

That is not what it says.


68 posted on 07/05/2010 3:14:00 PM PDT by papabrody
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To: TaraP; All
Do you all have any thoughts on this scripture?

Well, one point of view is this:

To put it in context: Note that it was G-d who told Rebecca that Esau would serve Jacob. Then we have the birthright given to Jacob (legitimately, Esau gives it away) and Jacob recieves the blessing by trickery. And now Esau is ticked-off!

Genesis 27: 41And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

Jacob gets out of Dodge and ends up with Laban and his daughters. Does his time there and is commanded to return home by an Angel!

After an encounter with Laban, Angels arrive! He knows he is to meet up with Esau again and he is afraid! He knows Esau's temper! he says this:

11Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, and the mother with the children.

But before he meets with Esau, he wrestles with another Angel all night long. Why? When the Angel is unable to defeat him, Jacob asks for his blessing. Why? Because he obtained his first blessing through trickery...now he seeks an honest blessing....and gets it!

It is thought that this Angel was Esau's guardian Angel, sent by G-d to right the wrong.

When Esau meets Jacob (Israel) he is filled with joy, not anger! And Jacob tries to give Esau tribute and says this:

10And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

The connection: "I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God" just as his encounter with the Angel the night before.

69 posted on 07/05/2010 3:17:17 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: papabrody

Isn’t Jesus God?

The entire OT is about Christ.. also scripture tells us that no man has seen God and lived..

The entire incident with jacob was about Christ


70 posted on 07/05/2010 3:17:59 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: circlecity

I was referring to verse 31 in Hebrew, which corresponds to verse 30 in English. You are incorrect, the word “lifnay” is not the word. The word is “panyim” and it does not “literally mean” “in front of.”


71 posted on 07/05/2010 3:35:02 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: blasater1960

Okay you said: The connection: “I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God” just as his encounter with the Angel the night before.
But how?

Through a dream? a vision? a face to face how we as poeople of today would see someone face to face? or through his
Pineal Gland?

Let me put it this way...Atheists will say constantly no proof of G-D, the Bible just ancient fairytales, etc...If you cannot find GOD first within yourself, how can you find him out of yourself?

When the Philistines captured the Arc of the Covenant they did not know how to worship Yahweh so they died, so the Pineal Gland where we enact prayer through faith must be what Jacob was speaking of?


72 posted on 07/05/2010 3:40:19 PM PDT by TaraP (He never offered our victories without fighting but he said help would always come in time)
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To: norge

agreed


73 posted on 07/05/2010 3:50:07 PM PDT by fish hawk (Hussein Obama: Golf/Gulf, not very good at either.)
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To: Tzfat

agreed


74 posted on 07/05/2010 3:50:58 PM PDT by fish hawk (Hussein Obama: Golf/Gulf, not very good at either.)
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To: TaraP

Put the bong down.


75 posted on 07/05/2010 3:52:21 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Iscool
Perhaps you could tell us the source of your Hebrew words as well...

The Hebrew text of B'reshit. When one speaks Hebrew, one does not need the English translation to read it. You said that the phrase was "literal" correlated to your doctrinal perspective. That statement as not true. You are welcome to your tradition, but don't accuse others of bblasphemy based on your lack of knowledge of the original Hebrew.
76 posted on 07/05/2010 4:23:14 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: count-your-change
What Jesus said, in Greek

LOL! You think He was speaking Greek? Now that is funny. "Jesus" the Greek!
77 posted on 07/05/2010 4:27:38 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Lurker

I do not do things like that...


78 posted on 07/05/2010 4:28:00 PM PDT by TaraP (He never offered our victories without fighting but he said help would always come in time)
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To: Tzfat

Do you understand English?


79 posted on 07/05/2010 4:33:07 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: TaraP
"But how?"

Through the face of the Angel. When a person has encounter with an Angel sent by G-d, it is as if it is a face-to-face with G-d.

"so the Pineal Gland where we enact prayer through faith must be what Jacob was speaking of?"

I have never heard of that...I will have to check it out..

80 posted on 07/05/2010 5:49:30 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: TaraP

The Zohar is a serious book. No silliness there...


81 posted on 07/05/2010 6:24:28 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: count-your-change
Do you understand English?

LOL. I suspect better than you understand Hebrew. But if by your question you were meaning to be rude, then might I suggest that you try again in Hebrew... or better yet, do it in Greek. Hellenistic "Jesus" might even overlook it if you did it in Greek!
82 posted on 07/05/2010 6:29:48 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: TaraP

My opinion is that we relate to God through our God-given spirit. It cannot be through a physical organ (Pineal Gland) as many other mammals also have this gland and the same function of sleep and seasonal rythmns are specific to it in them as well. Besides, if the Lord used a person’s pineal to communicate, what happens to someone who has his removed due to disease, he can’t pray anymore? The science also says this gland is normally calcified by the time we reach adulthood.


83 posted on 07/05/2010 6:34:54 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Tzfat

And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] “I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved.”

From the Chumash the Lubavitchers use. No Rashi commentary either. Pretty self-explanatory.

As they say “Don’t mess with the Zohar.”


84 posted on 07/05/2010 6:38:37 PM PDT by papabrody
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To: TaraP

In further reading about the “third eye”, as the pineal gland is often referred, it is believed by the New-Agers and other occults to be the way humans can interact with the gods or goddesses. I would stay away from that junk if I were you.


85 posted on 07/05/2010 6:44:31 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: TaraP

I forgot to add the wink to my previous reply. Seriously, the Zohar has some rather odd things in it. It is a lot of fun, but I would not use it for definitive answers.


86 posted on 07/05/2010 6:53:57 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat; Greenbow; TaraP; Soothesayer9; Jack Hydrazine; surroundedinCT; RnMomof7; plinyelder; ...
You were saying ...

Ah, no. Please put down the English Bible and rethink what what "literally means" ...really means.

Well, before you "put down the English Bible" - I would suggest reading this ... :-)

Genesis Chapter 32

24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the
breaking of day.

25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the
socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He
wrestled with him.

26 And He said, "Let Me go, for the day breaks." But he said, "I will
not let You go unless You bless me!"

27 So He said to him, "What is your name?" He said, "Jacob."

28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;
for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

29 Then Jacob asked, saying, "Tell me Your name, I pray." And He said,
"Why is it that you ask about My name?" And He blessed him there.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God
face to face, and my life is preserved."

31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on
his hip.

32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle
that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket
of Jacob's hip in the muscle that shrank.

It's pretty clear that's about as "face-to-face" as someone can get ... LOL ...

87 posted on 07/05/2010 7:04:39 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
It's pretty clear that's about as "face-to-face" as someone can get

Spoken as one who hasn't any experience with a Semitic culture or language. I could show you the silliness of your English argument, by showing you the silliness English idioms, but it would be wasted... So, just do yourself a favor and pick up an interlinear Bible and educate yourself. In the long run, it will be less embarassing for you.
88 posted on 07/05/2010 7:11:10 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: boatbums

I realize that *New Age* stuff uses biblical and mystical idioms for their beliefs....I am more or less asking if the Scientific and Biblical meanings go hand and hand, which I think they do, sice we are created in the image and likeness of G-D.

I think the Shroud of Turin is what triggers my biblical and spiritual curiosity. If we connect to G-D in the Spiritual it must come to us via somewhere...That is why I asked about the Pineal Gland.


89 posted on 07/05/2010 7:25:32 PM PDT by TaraP (He never offered our victories without fighting but he said help would always come in time)
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To: Star Traveler

Kissing close in a headlock would be pretty face to face alright! LOL.

Will be interesting to find out exactly what did go on.

The Scripture is at least as mysterious as it is informative.


90 posted on 07/05/2010 7:37:08 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Star Traveler

Learn Hebrew and go study the Torah with the rabbis. You will learn way, way, way more than what any Christian can teach you.

Jews have always defined God as spirit and not flesh. Many Jews have died sticking with that belief because the nations wanted God to be a flesh-and-blood God.


91 posted on 07/05/2010 7:41:12 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

There are *Hidden Meanings* in scripture, so yes Hebrew does address those meanings....Just like the word *Death* when we think of that to mean *We cease to exist* any longer, but G-D does not see it that way..Death is seperation Soul from Physical body...

*Obliterate* is how G-D sees something or someone who will cease to exist.


92 posted on 07/05/2010 7:52:49 PM PDT by TaraP (He never offered our victories without fighting but he said help would always come in time)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
Learn Hebrew and go study the Torah with the rabbis. You will learn way, way, way more than what any Christian can teach you.

Don't confuse him. He thinks that he can understand pshat by reading the King James Version. Their blindness is caused by failing to look past their bias and let the language of the Bible to speak for itself. Self-induced myopia.
93 posted on 07/05/2010 8:13:50 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat

Yeah, well I like pointing them in the right direction even if they aren’t interested in really knowing or going there.

When ever Christians bring up the whole man-is-God-is-man issue I just like to ask about his outstretched arm and hand reaching down from low earth orbit to part the Yam Suf and defeat the Paraoh’s Egyptian army.

Man wanting to elevate himself to the status of God and man trying to lower the status of God by making him physical has been a problem from the very beginning of time. When mankind will ever figure it out only He knows.


94 posted on 07/05/2010 8:24:58 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Tzfat

Do you understand English was a serious question since you only used part of the sentence I wrote. Anyone who does understand English knows what a parenthetical phrase is and knows “in Greek” is such a phrase set off by commas.

That means that I was quoting, in Greek, Jesus’ words no matter what language he actually used at the time.

Just as English translations quote his words, in English, no matter what language he was speaking at the time.

If I were attempting to be rude there would be no doubt as I would use some silliness like “LOL...LOL”


95 posted on 07/05/2010 8:54:21 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Star Traveler
It's pretty clear that's about as "face-to-face" as someone can get

Exactly. Furthermore, "Pani-El" means literally, "Face of God." (Not the peneal gland).

96 posted on 07/05/2010 9:07:35 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Tzfat
The Hebrew text of B'reshit. When one speaks Hebrew, one does not need the English translation to read it.

You said that the phrase was "literal" correlated to your doctrinal perspective. That statement as not true.

I didn't make that statement...And there was no mention of doctrine...

You are welcome to your tradition, but don't accuse others of bblasphemy based on your lack of knowledge of the original Hebrew.

I didn't accuse you or anyone of blasphemy...I asked you to translate the verse in English from 'your' Hebrew source...Maybe you can't do that with your 'new age' Greek texts...

97 posted on 07/05/2010 10:08:31 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: count-your-change
That means that I was quoting, in Greek, Jesus’ words no matter what language he actually used at the time.

I apologize for misunderstanding.
98 posted on 07/06/2010 3:52:17 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Iscool
I asked you to translate the verse in English from 'your' Hebrew source

Well, it isn't "my" Hebrew source. It is from the Mesorah - where 95% of all Bibles get their Hebrew Scriptures, but here you go, transliterated in a literal, mechanical translation:

vayikra Ya'akov shem hamakom p'niel ki-raiti ekohim panyim el-panyim vatinatzel nafshi

And called Jacob name the place sides of Ek because I perceived/saw/sensed Ekohim sides to sides and rescued/preserved my soul.

I have circumlocuted reference to G-d by adding a koof ["k"], although the word is also used for angels. I have provided multiple words where there is no direct translation. Ask anyone who speaks modern or biblical Hebrew and they will vouch for the mechanical translation. As you can see, Hebrew is very concise.
99 posted on 07/06/2010 4:15:25 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Guyin4Os
No, it literally means "sides of G-d." there is no Hebrew word for "face." Even if we translate "panyim" as "face" it is plural, so "faces."

When you say "literally" you must do a mechanical translation. So in the case it is "sides of G-d."
100 posted on 07/06/2010 6:19:34 AM PDT by Tzfat
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