Skip to comments.Salvadoran Catholic Church asks President Funes to veto Bible reading in schools (Translated)
Posted on 07/11/2010 12:05:34 PM PDT by ConservativeMind
"On behalf of the Catholic Church in El Salvador and society in general, we ask Mr. President to use his executive power to veto the decree referred to upholding the rule of law and democracy of our Salvadoran society"
The Episcopal Conference of El Salvador (CEDES) demanded on Sunday the president Mauricio Funes veto a legislative decree that compels us to read the Bible in schools, believing that "violates" the "religious freedom" enshrined in the Constitution.
The CEDES Funes makes the call under in the coming days must be punished, veto or observe the legislative decree 411 which provides read the Bible in classrooms to combat violence.
The education of children in the faith, according to the bishops, "is a right and duty" of parents, aided by ministers of religion.
"We are interested in reading the Bible, but not as imposing liability in the schools, hopefully becoming more read the Bible is more understood, more practiced," says the shepherd.
(Excerpt) Read more at translate.google.com ...
YeaH, I thought so as well...some points not yet clear, I need to look closer at... but all in all very interesting.
No such thing as apostolic succession in the NT church ...
Cause that is what they are told to believe.. isn't that enough for you?
“Education should be private.”
I’ll agree with you there. Possibly I could go with literacy and citizenship classes provided by the government, with the justification that they need a literate citizenship that knows their rights and responsibilities.
But as long as it is public, there is a religion being taught. The prevailing religion being taught today is secular humanism. That is the dominant religion of this nation, in my opinion. It must be stopped, and I advocate Christianity to stop it. Bible reading is a good start.
St. Paul was talking about preaching. He spoke about Christ to his hearers, personally, engaging in debate, answering questions, delivering his testimony. He didn’t expect that reading state-chosen selections of the Bible to schoolchildren would transform the society of the Roman Empire.
I kind of agree with that on "principle in a vacuum," as it were. However, that's the justification used by our government, and yet it's clear that our *rulers* in fact have a vested interest in an illiterate subject population that has no concept of legitimate rights or any responsibilities ... and conveniently, that's what our government schools produce in large numbers. This tells us something about government.
As to your second paragraph, we're not talking about the US. The subject is El Salvador. Although I know a couple dozen Salvadorans, I know nothing about what public schools are like in their home country.
On principle, I do not like mixing government with religion. Satan quotes Scripture to his purposes, and so can government. Make the subjects pacificist, or make them theocratic-militarist. Make them obedient to the state, or make them detached from political involvement. Make them accept polygamy or incest. All of that can be done if they take their religion just from the excerpts of the Bible the state chooses to present.
The original post, describing the bible reading in El Salvador, reeks with the mendacity usually served in these anti Catholic threads. Notice how once challenged regarding the validity and misleading nature of their duplicity these anti christian bigots fall to support their mendacious contentions which fall like lightning from the sky. These alleged Christians have used pagan tactics for years but as Christ commanded we must love all.
<< Romans 10 >>
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Paul preached the word.. that is what saves
The literal Greek translation says "so then the faith is by a report, and the report through a saying of God,"
I have read a study that the majority of Catholics do not believe they are receiving the actual body of Christ some years ago, I believe from a Catholic source, I also have read that Catholics have more abortions than Protestants.. but the rest is pretty new to me
Indeed - the Bible, and what he told them it meant. The Jewish people had the Old Testament, all that there was of “Scripture” at the time. Jesus said to their teachers, “You search the Scriptures, thinking that in them you have eternal life, and yet it is they that testify to Me.” Even today, Jews and Christians read the same Old Testament, and draw drastically different conclusions from it.
The benefit of Bible readings, unsupported by anything else, is tenuous from a religious perspective. From a “language arts” perspective, it is all gain if they use an excellent Spanish version. The one I have is the “middle school” version, I think, compared to what I hear some of our other parishioners reading. In English, I use the RSV, but my Spanish is not up to that level of subtle vocabulary.
Now these people are all professionals...attended Mass faithfully and often spoke of this. How much they enjoyed it. “Faithful” catholics as one might say. But they had little if any understanding of the scriptures. “Too hard to understand”...and one actually asked “What does it mean to be born again”. You can bet those of us Christians wasted no time praying then and explained to her what this is.
My point is the four of us Christians spoke freely about Christ and the things of God. The catholics offered little to these conversations and clearly were awkward trying to ... generally asked more questions. They were illiterate of the things of God for the most part. Their faith rested entirely on belonging to the church alone...and that is generally how it is when I speak with catholics....FR is the exception to that and greatly so. At the least they know what their church teaches and most understand why they believe what they do...even if we disagree.
Oh, yeah, that’s the most cogent response of the Catholics on this thread.
I love it when Catholics can’t take it.
By the way, 90+% of El Salvador is Catholic, and I’M FOR THE CATHOLIC TAKE ON THIS IN CLASSROOMS AS LONG AS THE BIBLE IS STRICTLY BEING READ FROM!
I’ve stated that in prior posts and someone like you says the crazy things you do.
Perhaps the poster has a more substantive answer, but i will check back tomorrow. Have a God night.
The Bible is a book, not a person.
If it speaks for itself, then it hasn't spoken very clearly, since there manifestly is widespread disagreement as to what it says.
Even if we stipulate that your premise is unproblematic, it is impossible for teachers or anyone else to refrain from comment on something as important as Scripture. Even the tone of voice in which it is read will convey much information about the reader's estimation.
The fact that in this case the passages read will be carefully prescreened by a government agency indicates that bias is already at work.
The Bible is not intended to be a tool of worldly policy.
Sola Ecclesia Romanus
Only the Church of Rome is the Rule of Faith
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
YOu completely ignore the possibility that the Holy Spirit may have some say in the matter...
The bible is not a novel...It's a spiritual book...
Do you agree the first bible message should be from the Apocrypha of the OT since the protestant types have been deprived of God's word for so many years?
Here's the real verse...
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
The verse is a command to 'search the scriptures'...Search the scriptures because you think you have eternal life even tho you do not have His WORDS abiding in you...
God says you're wrong...
That is why Christians need to have an authoritative source not some self imagined visit from the Holy Spirit where wild imaginations rule the day.
Twice in a row, you're wrong...And I guess we can take that as confirmation that you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit and are not led by the Spirit as well...
By believing agenda driven anti-Christian statistical sites I can discern your visits have been from the darker side and so you must attack what is of God by attacking His Bride.
Without the Holy Spirit, you have no Spiritual discernment...
Pay attention to post 116...All the characteristics you diss are the characteristics of a Christian, according to the God of the scriptures...
Make that post 118...It will help you in the long run...Read the surrounding verses (in a bible) as well...
It is sad that you believe reading Bible verses out loud makes for an occasion that is a “PRIDEFUL SELF DELUSIONAL STATE OF MIND OCCASIONED BY SATAN.”
It is also sad that you believe, contrary to the even the Catholic church’s teaching, that the Apocrypha is Scripture from God. Last I heard, not even the Pope believed that it was worthy of being Canonized.
Just sad what passes for a Catholic nowadays.
This is the big lie put about by the "Sola Scriptura" clique. There are a myriad of opinions on what certain passages from Scripture mean. What you mean is that when you read the Bible, its meaning appears obvious and it speaks for itself. It also speaks for itself to the guy who just opened up a new storefront church in the local strip mall.
However, his views on certain passages of Scripture are not the same as yours, despite the fact that you both agree that the Bible speaks for itself and that Sola Scriptura is the only way to go.
Scripture itself, says that certain parts are not easy to understand.
And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Peter 3: 15-17
I have had inspirations from the Holy Spirit and was told that your sold is in danger of eternal damnation for speaking falsehoods which is contrary to biblical mandates. My soul is prayed for and paid for by Jesus. I am pray up and paid up and asking Jesus to forgive those like you who do damage to his Church. I pray to the Holy Ghost to see if He can change your sinful and PRIDEFUL disposition.
Perhaps your protestant interpretive abilities could be utilized in other spheres as divination. What you think?
OK these prideful protestants don't whisper but who's counten.
From bronx2 -
“That is why Christians need to have an authoritative source not some self imagined visit from the Holy Spirit where wild imaginations rule the day.”
“I have had inspirations from the Holy Spirit and was told that your sold is in danger of eternal damnation for speaking falsehoods which is contrary to biblical mandates.”
You are one of the funniest Catholics I've yet met! A constant contradiction!
Doesn't say it's impossible to understand...And it points out that only the unlearned and unstable not only don't understand it but they pervert what they don't understand...
And Peter obviously isn't suggesting the learned are Harvard graduates...Peter is speaking of 'learned in the scriptures'...
And by perusing your catechism, this verse would include just about every Catholic out there...
The Catholic church uses the same source of authority as the Pharisees did..2 source authority for doctrine ( the torahs.. written and oral ) . As we see Jesus kept pointing men back to the written word of God
Yes, I understand this now and it has certainly clarified why the focus on the authority of their church. But I disagree with that fully. The catholic church does not have the final say in interpretation of scripture....And they do not have the authority to claim any traditions as God breathed as the scriptures are. And certainly the catholic church today hardly reflects that of the apostles teachings or it would have been presented as so in the scriptures. I might say some other things but am concerned my post would be pulled. Still it is truly profound what I have learned on these threads..Thank you.
Seems to me there was a great deal more to the Reformation and solid reasons for that than I was aware...but I am certainly learning!
I do not understand the area of forgiveness in the catholic church. It seems they go to confession to a Priest or screen, (I assume a computer or such), at least once a year.....so they can have a years of sins built up before they can know forgiveness? Then they have to go thru a process of reconciliation as well, also involving a Priest? Can they not just go directly to Christ? and if they can then why do they need the Priest in the first place?
Further they cannot do mass if they haven’t been to confession, which means they cannot take communion that whole year as well.
I ask this because I was reading a list of catholic “duties” requiring that mass and confession need only be done once a year....I’ll assume more often if one wants to but required just once a year. It just seems complicated.
Why would you ask a non-Catholic questions about Catholic beliefs? Do you ask or expect liberals to give you an accurate explanation of conservatism?
I ask those I think might be familiar with the subject....not necessarily involved with. Many are quite familiar with the catholic practices and are capable of responding. Besides, the site I found that information on was a catholic site and you’d think they could make their own writing understandable. It wasn’t and thus I brought it here.
Interesting that you would comment as you have. Thank you for your interest.
By the way I don’t see you stepping up to the plate and answering my catholic questions.
Confession is supposed to be once a month. The way it used to happen is that people would line up for confession prior to taking mass.
Yes, we can confess to God, but Catholics believe that the priest can offer absolution through the sacrament.
What do you mean absolution? Didn’t Christ already pay all that needs to be paid and it is in Him we have forgiveness? What more is needed and why?
When we as Christians sin and act against Christ, we need to confess our since and be reconciled with Him. This is done through the sacrament of confession, where the Priest absolves you in the name of Christ.
How about reading from the Quran in public schools in regions of Michigan where Muslims are a majority?
A government with the power to promote a particular religious “take” on things also has the power to promote other religious viewpoints, or to forbid particular religious viewpoints.
Perhaps that is why our founders thought that an individuals “freedom of conscience” should not be intruded upon by the power of the State.
First of all, this is only concerning the Bible, so I would hope that Muslims are offended and leave. El Salvador is 90+% Catholic, so no, I’m not worried about the Quran or the Book of Mormon being read aloud in school. Central American is seeing its own Muslim influx and if they were required to read aloud from the Bible, they’d poop a brick.
If we had such a requirement here, I highly doubt other religions would ever get a foothold.
I personally don’t have a problem with other faiths, but this country, if we had continued to maintain its original faith structure, would be better off. It got us to the 1950s and then we went to hell in a handbasket with laws being turned upside down (like abortion from nothingness).
If I went to a Muslim country, I wouldn’t expect them to mandate Christianity on me, but I would make sure I was allowed to practice my faith if it wasn’t Islam. The same should be acceptable in El Salvador or even here.
Remember, virtually all of our colonies were states with state religions. Why are you appalled at such a concept?
Would you please, using even a Catholic Bible, give us references as to where such a concept comes from?
There’s no ‘Catholic bible’. There just the Bible.
There are two passages which refer to Confession of Sins.
Christ says to Peter, whatcosver you bind on earth shall be bound in heaved, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed on heaven.
As the priests are the successors of the Apostles, they also hold this authority.
‘As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’
This is why priests can hold confessions, and can absolve, by the Power of Christ in them.
...the first part I do agree with...We confess our sin to Christ because He is the one we have sinned against. But I wouldn't go to my neighbor to confess a sin against a family member...I'd go to the family member directly because they alone are in the position to forgive me, the neighbor has no power to forgive...but the offended party does.
You say the Priest is the one doing the forgiving? But that cannot be possible....otherwise Christ's sacrifice is made null and void...useless....as Christ is our Priest, and coming King...not any man no matter what authority he may imagine he has. It's just not possible for a man to absolve us of guilt. None have been given that authority after Christ....and even before Christ an animal sacrifice of blood was required.... as is said."there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood" The catholic Priest doesn't shed His blood...not a drop.
So you see the confusion when the catholics think a priest is required....Since Jesus Christ shed His blood...and said.."come unto me"...for forgiveness...then the way is open for us to go directly. At the crucifixion the huge curtain dividing the holy of holies from the people, and where only the Priesthood could enter (and that by sacrifice of blood even for themselves), was torn from top to bottom so all people could enter without the Priesthood. Jesus said.."It is finished" and the curtain was torn. We are now free to enter the throneroom of God thru Christ...not a Priesthood...No man could rent that curtain from the top. Christ's crucifixion opened the way right then and there at Calvary. So why do you look to a Priest? It makes no sense given the huge sacrifice of Christ.
Well I have Christ in me as do all believers but we do not claim that...only Christ does. I have been sent out by the authority of Christ as have all believers willing to do so...but we do not have the power to forgive sins against Christ nor to grant salvation...that is done thru Christ and by the power of His spirit...we simply give the message....as Paul stated...Christ crucified, dead and buried..rose from the dead...ascended where he sits at the right hand of God the Father.. We are witness to that.. not the one giving the forgiveness nor do we dare to think we have saved anyone...that is the work of Christ. I do not believe the catholic Priests hold any power whatsoever to forgive or absolve anyone. The priesthood was done away with at Calvary....completely and wholly fulfilled in Christ.
“I do not believe the catholic Priests hold any power whatsoever to forgive or absolve anyone. The priesthood was done away with at Calvary.’
Then how do you interpret the citation from John? It’s pretty clear from me that Christ created his new priesthood.
Let me show you what Priesthood is NEW:
Since we have ‘confidence’ to enter the most Holy Place by the Blood of Jesus,...by a NEW and living way....opened for us through the curtain, that is His body, and since we have a Great High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God.......(near to Him not thru another priest, thru Christ our High Priest)... Heb.10:19-22
(The curtain was torn in two...top to bottom....which symbolizes the body of Christ....like the curtain His body was torn to open the way into the Divine Presence...the Priesthood was done and over...kaput!)
Holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest whom we confess....Heb.3:1...
Jesus...destined BY GOD to be High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.....Heb.5:10..(not man appointed God appointed.)
For it is declared: You are a Priest forever in the order of Melchizedek...... THE FORMER REGULATION IS SET ASIDE because it was WEAK AND USELESS,....and a better hope is introduced by which we draw near to God... Heb7:17-18....(Priesthood of men is done.)
Following very important:
...It was not without an oath!.... Others became priests WITHOUT an oath, but He became a priest WITH AN OATH when God said to Him:.....The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind “You are a Priest forever”
.......because of this OATH, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. Now there have been many of those priests,... since death prevented them from continuing in office...(they died)....but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent Priesthood, therefore...He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because ....He lives to intercede for them....Heb7:20-25 (Jesus directly intercedes for us)
THE LAW appoints as high priests MEN WHO ARE WEAK.
THE OATH, CAME AFTER THE LAW..appointed THE SON
who has been made perfect forever. Heb7:28
(We are no longer under the LAW of the priesthood of men but a NEW covenant)
By calling this covenant New, He has made
the first one OBSOLETE and AGING
and will soon disappear.....Heb8:13...(and it did).
And a New covenenant preached by new men, the Apostles, of whom the priests of the Catholic church are the descendents.
Christ granted them an office and an authority which stems from his sacrifice on the cross which continues on through this day.
Nope...You might want to go here to link below...new thread....challeges both catholics and protestants...but no the catholic church does not have the Apostolic sucession nor the authority it claims and it cannot be proven as everybody knows...but surely the catholic leadership will claim otherwise as they have thru the centuries.
I am sorry you didn’t give more thought to my post...some real Gems there if you are sensitive to God’s spirit. Let Gods word be true and every man a lier.
One other thing...you know you catholics and the mormons and the muslums will be duking it out one day for all three claim the same thing. So somebody has got to be wrong!...
Thee church, thee leadership, thee keys to the kingdom, thee scriptures. You all say the same thing.
I wonder if all three will ‘fall’ under the one world religion as catholics have already acknowleged the Muslum God...and Mormons have acknowledged the Christian God......not to many steps left to merge as one...not to mention Hinduism which will accept any faith to begin with...and this along with the world council of churches will make it complete.
You’re right. I believe the Catholic church is right. I have no problem saying that I believe mormons and Muslims are wrong and we have it right.