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Salvadoran Catholic Church asks President Funes to veto Bible reading in schools (Translated)
La Prensa Grafica (El Salvador) ^ | July 11, 2010 | Stefany Jovel with reporting from Loida Martínez

Posted on 07/11/2010 12:05:34 PM PDT by ConservativeMind

"On behalf of the Catholic Church in El Salvador and society in general, we ask Mr. President to use his executive power to veto the decree referred to upholding the rule of law and democracy of our Salvadoran society"

The Episcopal Conference of El Salvador (CEDES) demanded on Sunday the president Mauricio Funes veto a legislative decree that compels us to read the Bible in schools, believing that "violates" the "religious freedom" enshrined in the Constitution.

The CEDES Funes makes the call under in the coming days must be punished, veto or observe the legislative decree 411 which provides read the Bible in classrooms to combat violence.

The education of children in the faith, according to the bishops, "is a right and duty" of parents, aided by ministers of religion.

"We are interested in reading the Bible, but not as imposing liability in the schools, hopefully becoming more read the Bible is more understood, more practiced," says the shepherd.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: moralabsolutes
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To: BenKenobi

41 posted on 07/11/2010 2:13:35 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Anyone pushing Romney must love socialism...Piss on Romney and his enablers!!" ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: ConservativeMind

“Apparently the Catholic church is afraid people will hear the true Word without their baggage added onto it.”

Something I am coming to understand is a “tradition” in that church.

42 posted on 07/11/2010 2:13:51 PM PDT by Grunthor (I like you but when the zombies chase us, I'm tripping you.)
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To: Tax-chick
Because religious education and discipleship belong in the family and in the church - whatever church the family chooses - not in government institutions. I would oppose mandatory Bible reading in the county schools for which I pay taxes, for the same reason. State imposition of any religious practice is unsuitable.

A religiously neutral education is **impossible**. All schools must choose between either a godless worldview or a God-centered one. Neither are religiously neutral in content or consequences. Therefore government schools should be BANNED!

Solution: Begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education. Get government OUT of the education business. It is impossible to be religiously neutral.

43 posted on 07/11/2010 2:15:43 PM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: wintertime

I agree. Government run education is an invention of communism. Public schools should be privatized and all parents should choose where their children are educated. That creates a true subsidiary relationship that government should have.

44 posted on 07/11/2010 2:19:02 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Anyone pushing Romney must love socialism...Piss on Romney and his enablers!!" ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: ConservativeMind

Last sentence of article: “Este domingo, el arzobispo de San Salvador, José Luis Escobar, rechazó la posición de pastores evangélicos que acusan a la iglesia católica de temer a la lectura de la Biblia porque no la alienta entre sus feligreses.”

This Sunday, the archbishop of San Salvador, José Luis Escobar, rejected the position of evangelical pastors who accuse the Catholic Church of fearing the reading of the Bible because it does not encourage it among its parishioners.

Obviously not all “protestants” were against the new law requiring (only) reading of the Bible.

45 posted on 07/11/2010 2:22:14 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: ConservativeMind

Parties that are officially atheist cannot, of course, vote for such a law. This doesn’t mean that a law mandating Bible readings selected by the state as part of a larger government policy initiative is a good idea for believers.

46 posted on 07/11/2010 2:27:43 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: Tax-chick

**OF COURSE Salvadoran Catholics have a perfectly good Spanish Bible (a number of versions) available to them. I own one, myself, “Latinoamerica, Edicion Pastoral.” Half the people in our Spanish charismatic prayer/Bible study group are Salvadoran. They know their Bible quite well.**

Thanks so much — and a lot of other posters thank you too.

47 posted on 07/11/2010 2:32:31 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: wintertime
A religiously neutral education is **impossible**. All schools must choose between either a godless worldview or a God-centered one. Neither are religiously neutral in content or consequences.

I agree.

And in the bigger picture, the insinuation of government into ever more areas of life that should be the private preserve of individuals, families, congregations and communities is something that all conservatives should oppose.

48 posted on 07/11/2010 2:33:59 PM PDT by Tax-chick (We made a proactive decision to postpone the originally scheduled nightlife activities.)
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To: BenKenobi

Many are following in your footsteps, too, Ben.

Welcome home to you and to all who are on their way! I know that they are out there reading threads, because I get notes and questions from them. Big smile...........................

49 posted on 07/11/2010 2:34:51 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ConservativeMind

Why then is the Catholic Church against it? Is this Catholic organization representative of the Catholic Church in El Salvador?

50 posted on 07/11/2010 2:37:38 PM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: Salvation

You’re welcome. I sympathize with the government of El Salvador. Crime and violence, especially gangs, are a serious problem in El Salvador, and of course among Salvadorans in the US as well. However, having students read, perhaps, the Sermon on the Mount - with no discussion, no examples, no effort to apply the words to the problem of violence in their society - seems likely to be of little effect. Maybe they’d learn a new vocabulary word.

It’s almost magical thinking ... *just* listening to a few words from the Bible is expected to address a serious societal issue.

51 posted on 07/11/2010 2:45:12 PM PDT by Tax-chick (We made a proactive decision to postpone the originally scheduled nightlife activities.)
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To: wintertime

I agree. There is no such thing as “values free” or “religion free” education. The default position now, pretending to be neutral, is aggressive atheism with subsequent hedonism, marxism, etc - all based on atheism.

I’m not opposed to government schools in the sense of very local community government - town, or sections of town. Blocks. But no fedgov or entire state controlled schools, no no no.

52 posted on 07/11/2010 3:02:31 PM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: Salvation

Not all Protestant churches have caved on these matters. Not by a long shot. To say “educate yourself” on that shows ignorance, or a desire to do away with the truth.

53 posted on 07/11/2010 3:10:33 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Natural Law

“Because it opens the door for mandatory reading of the Koran too. “

Not necessarily.

It could; but also, it could be the best weapon against Al Qaeda we’ve seen in a long time.

54 posted on 07/11/2010 3:11:44 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Salvation

What one officially teaches is one things; what they effectually convey is another. As long a church does not actually Biblically discipline (1Cor. 4:21; 5:9-13; Rm. 16:17; 2Thes. 3:6,14,15; 1Tim. 1:20; 6:5; 2Jn. 1:10) those who promote immorality, from Kerry to Pelosi to the commoners in the pews, but treat them as members, then it effectively is a liberal church, as that is what predominates wherever it reigns for long, in contrast to its evangelical adversaries, even in their present condition. .Differences Between Denominations


    Evangelicals versus Catholics, from various formal studies, spanning 1992 to 2009 (see sources here).

  • 73% (highest) of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly affirm that Christ was sinless on earth, with Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists being tied at 33%, and the lowest being among Episcopalians with just 28%

  • 64% of those in Assemblies of God churches (versus only 9% of Catholics) strongly DISAGREE that if a person is generally good, or does enough good things for others they will earn a place in Heaven [salvation on the basis of merit].

  • 56% of Assemblies of God (versus 17% Catholics) Christians strongly DISAGREE that Satan is just a symbol of evil [rather than a real being].

  • Catholics and Mainline Protestants tend towards more belief in a more Distant God.

  • Evangelical Protestants and Black Protestants tend towards belief in a more Authoritarian God.

  • Among 7,441 Protestant pastors. Asked if they believed that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God: 87% of Methodists said no. 95% of Episcopalians said no. 82% of Presbyterians said NO. 67% of American Baptists said no

  • Bible Reading: the highest was 75%, by those going to a Pentecostal/Foursquare church who reported they had read the Bible during the past week (besides at church), while the lowest was among Catholics at 23%

  • Volunteer church work (during past 7 days): Assemblies of God were highest at 30%, with the lowest going to Catholics at 12%.

  • Donating Money (during the last month): Church of Christ churches were the highest at 29%, with Catholics being the lowest at 12%

  • American evangelicals gave four times as much, per person, to churches as did all other church donors in 2001. 88 percent of evangelicals and 73 percent of all Protestants donated to churches.

  • By denomination, 61% of the those associated with an Assemblies of God church said they had shared their faith at least once during the past year, followed by 61% of those who attend a Pentecostal/Foursquare church, and ending 14% among Episcopalians and just 10% among Roman Catholics

  • 25% of Evangelical Christians read the Bible on a daily basis along with 20% of other Protestants. Just 7% of Catholics do the same. At the other extreme, 44% of Catholics rarely or never read the Bible along with only 7% of Evangelical Christians and 13% of other Protestants.

  • 91% of Evangelical Christians and 63% of other Protestants and 25% of Catholics consider themselves to be born again,

  • 44% of Evangelical Christians reflect at least daily on the meaning of Scripture in their lives. 36% of other Protestants and 22% of Catholics do the same.

  • 52% of Evangelical Christians have had a meaningful discussion about their faith with a non-Christian during the past month. 28% of other Protestants and 18% of Catholics also have held such a discussion.

  • 68% of Evangelical Christians attend a regular Bible Study or participate in some other small-group activity. 47% of other Protestants take part in small groups related to their faith, along with 24% of Catholics.

  • 39 percent of Catholics affirmed not attending church is a sin, versus 23 percent of Protestants.

  • Weekly Church attendance: Evangelicals showed the highest participation of approx 60 percent (30% more than once a week). Catholics were at 45 percent (9% more than once a week), and Jews 15 percent.

  • The highest percentage of those who strongly agree they have a personal responsibility to share their faith was found among believers in Pentecostal/Foursquare churches (73%)

  • 81% of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly agree that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches , followed by 77% of Assemblies of God believers, and ending with 26% of Catholics and 22% of Episcopalians.

  • 40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59%

  • Committed Roman Catholics (church attendance weekly or almost) versus Non-R.C.:

  • Abortion: 24% R.C. vs. 19% Non-R.C.; Sex between unmarried couples: 53% vs. 30%; Baby out of wedlock: 48% vs. 29%; Homosexual relations: 44% vs. 21%; Gambling: 67% vs. 40%; Divorce: 63 vs. 46%

  • Catholics broke with their Church's teachings more than most other groups, with just six out of 10 Catholics affirming that God is "a person with whom people can have a relationship", and three in 10 describing God as an "impersonal force."

  • Only 33% of Catholics strongly affirmed that Christ was sinless on earth

  • 88% of Catholics believe that they can practice artificial means of birth control and still be considered good Catholics.

  • 70 % of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus [it is, of His death], indicating they do not believe it is Jesus actual body and blood

  • Only 30% of Catholics said believe they are really and truly receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

  • 26 percent of Catholics polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivoval position on abortion

  • Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants.

  • 46 percent of Catholics who say they attend mass weekly accept Church teaching on abortion; 43 percent accept the all-male priesthood; and 30 percent see contraception as morally wrong.

  • 31% of faithful Catholics (those who attend church weekly) say abortion should be legal either in "many" or in "all" cases.

  • 73 percent of Catholics rejected Catholic teaching artificial methods of birth control.

  • Only 20 percent strongly agreed with the Church teaching that only men may be ordained.

  • 59% of all Catholic women of childbearing age practice contraception—a rate of usage statistically equivalent to that of the general population (60%).

  • 66% of Catholics supported women's ordination to the priesthood, and 73% approved of the way John Paul II leads the church.

  • 80% of Catholics believe it is possible to disagree with the pope on official positions on morality and still be a good Catholic.

  • 77 % of Catholics polled "believe a person can be a good Catholic without going to Mass every Sunday, 65 percent believe good Catholics can divorce and remarry, and 53 percent believe Catholics can have abortions and remain in good standing.

  • 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations; 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never.

  • 44 percent of the priests said "definitely" a homosexual subculture'--defined as a `definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary'--exists in their diocese or religious order

  • 50 percent of Protestants affirmed gambling was a sin, versus 15 percent of Catholics; that getting drunk was a sin: 63 percent of Protestants, 28 percent of Catholics; gossip: 70 percent to 45 percent: homosexual activity or sex: 72 percent to 42 percent.

  • 39 percent of Roman Catholics and 79 percent of born-again, evangelical or fundamentalist Americans affirm that homosexual behavior is sinful.

  • 79 percent of American Jews, 58 percent of Catholics and 56 percent of mainline Protestants favor acceptance of homosexuality, versus 39 percent of members of historically black churches, 27 percent of Muslims and 26 percent of the evangelical Protestants. U.S.

  • Evangelical Churches (17%), had the lowest percentage of souls aged 18-29, versus Unaffiliated (31%), Muslims (29%), Historically Black Churches (24%), Mormons (24%) and Other Faiths (24%). Mainline Churches had the greater percentage (23%) of souls 65 and older.

  • 2% of Mainline Churches, 77% of Catholics and 53% of Evangelical Churches affirmed, "There is MORE than one true way to interpret the teachings of my religion."

  • 50% of Evangelicals considered themselves Republican or leaned toward that party, 34% Democratic or leaned thereto; 9% Independents.

  • 48% of Catholics considered themselves Democrats or leaned toward that party, 33% Republican or leaned thereto; 10% Independent.

  • Based upon exit polling, 74 percent of Evangelicals voted for McCain in 2008, with 25 percent for Obama. (Another measure put the percentage of evangelicals at 23 percent, with 73 percent voting for McCain, 26 percent for Obama.)

  • Catholics overall supported Obama over McCain by a nine-point margin (54% vs. 45%)

  • 37% of Catholics were registered as Democrats, 27% Republican, and 31% as Independents.

  • 77 percent of Black Protestants said they vote Democratic, whether they attended weekly services or not.

  • The 16 most Catholic states contain 24 of the most liberal cities. Excluding (Maryland 26th), predominately Roman Catholic states contain all but one (Seattle WA) of the 30 most liberal cities. Of states in which S. Baptists are the single largest denomination none (of the 30 cities) were found (the term “liberal: being defined according to individual contributions to PACs, election returns and the number of homosexual households:

  • (See HERE for Table of casual Religio-Political relations. And HERE for Correlation between faith, ideology, politics, environment, money.)


55 posted on 07/11/2010 3:12:22 PM PDT by daniel1212 ("Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out " (Acts 3:19))
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To: Tax-chick

“State imposition of any religious practice is unsuitable. “

Firstly, the American public schools had Bible reading for decades, many decades. My pastor grew up in a Maine public school where the Bible was read every day, and they all stood and recited the Lord’s Prayer.

Secondly, the state imposes religious practice every day. Everything they teach has a religious component in one way or another. The ABSENCE of Scripture is in itself a state imposition of religious teaching. It teaches that we can all get along without the Bible just fine; that it has no impact on anything we learn; and that we are the final arbiters of truth, right and wrong.

So, the school will always impose religion. The question is, which religion?

56 posted on 07/11/2010 3:14:35 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: elpadre; ConservativeMind; narses

Even the Unitarian (a religion that effectively denied Christ and the Divine authority of the Bible, but, unlike its later form, at that time overall upheld general Biblical morality) “Father of the Common School,” Horace Mann (May 4, 1796 — August 02, 1859), who became Massachusetts Secretary of Education in 1837, not only understood the impossibility of separating education from religious moral beliefs, but held that it was lawful to teach the truths of the general Christian faith, asserting that the “laws of Massachusetts required the teaching of the basic moral doctrines of Christianity.” Mann, who supported prohibition of alcohol and intemperance, slavery and lotteries, ( dreaded “intellectual eminence when separated from virtue”, that education, if taught without moral responsibilities, would produce more evil than it inherited. (William Jeynes, “American educational history: school, society, and the common good,” p. 149, 150)

Mann evidenced that he rightly understood that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment did not prohibit officially favoring the general, common Christian faith and its morality, but that it forbade official sanction of one particular sect by distinctively favoring its doctrinal distinctions, stating that “it may not be easy theoretically, to draw the line between those views of religious truth and of Christian faith which is common to all, and may, therefore, with propriety be inculcated in schools, and those which, being peculiar to individual sects, are therefore by law excluded; still it is believed that no practical difficulty occurs in the conduct of our schools in this regard.” (Stephen V. Monsma, J. Christopher Soper, “The Challenge of Pluralism: Church and State in Five Democracies”, The Unites States, cp. 2, p. 21) To critics who were alarmed at the concept of secular schools, he assured that his system “inculcates all Christian morals; it founds its morals on the basis of religion; it welcomes the religion of the Bible...,” but he did exhort that Bible reading be without comment to discourage sectarian bickering. (Mann, Twelfth Annual Report for 1848 of the Secretary of the Board of Education of Massachusetts. Reprinted in Blau 183-84.

Considered second to Mann in his schooling endeavor was Henry Barnard, who was raised in a deeply religious family, and who saw his involvement in education “as part of the providence of God”. Like the majority of Americans, he believed that democracy and education went together in “the cause of truth—the cause of justice — the cause of liberty— the cause of patriotism — the cause of religion.” (Jeynes, p. 154)

By 1890, schools nationwide saw 95 percent of children between the ages of five and thirteen enrolled for at least a few months out of the year, though less than 5 percent of adolescents went to high school, and even fewer entered college. In addition, while there existed thousands of local schools, nearly one thousand colleges and universities (or varying quality), and scores of normal schools which trained teachers, a nationwide educational “system” had yet to be realized by the end of the 1800’s. Education was largely locally managed, as the federal bureau of education, while collecting information about the condition of education, possessed no control over local schools. Education agencies on the state level were small, and its few employees had little or no power over local school districts. School systems in large cities could also function with little oversight, such as in Baltimore, where the public schools in 1890 employed only two superintendents for the entire district of 1,200 teachers. Despite this, public schools across America were notably similar, with children learning both the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic, and the basics of good behavior – the latter being enforced when necessary by corporal punishment. Schools were important community institutions, and reflected the values of of parents and churches, such as honesty, industry, patriot-ism, responsibility, respect for adults, and courtesy. Memorization, recitation, chants and rhymes were often used in teaching subjects, while solving mathematical problems in one’s head was promoted. This inculcation of basic education and self-discipline was purposed to promote good moral citizenry, people who would be honestly employed, and make wise and informed choices, and overall progress in an individualistic, competitive and democratic society, and who would contribute to the vitality of their community and country. (Diane Ravitch, “Left Back A Century of Failed School Reforms” Simon & Schuster)

As regards higher education, the overwhelming majority of the first private colleges of this country were founded as Christian institutions to teach the Gospel. (, “How Christians Started the Ivy League”) Harvard, Yale and Princeton are three examples. All three were established to teach young men to be pastors. The founders of Harvard College, established in 1636, professed that, “All knowledge without Christ was vain.” After requiring literacy in Latin, the second requirement in “Harvard Lawes” of 1642 was that “Every one shall consider the main end of his life and studies to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life. (Joh. 17:3) The overall religious nature of colleges and universities continued at least until the Civil War. Even State colleges had significant religious (most always Christian) components, such as mandatory religion courses and attendance at chapel services, while large numbers of their faculties had formal religious training. (Ringenberg, 1984; Marsden and Longfield, 1962; Ronald W. Fagan and Raymond G. DeVries, “The practice of sociology at Christian liberal arts colleges and universities”; The American Sociologist, June, 1994)

57 posted on 07/11/2010 3:14:55 PM PDT by daniel1212 ("Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out " (Acts 3:19))
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To: Persevero
State-sanctioned secularism as religion

It is perceived by some that outlawing formal religion results in replacing it with a functional ideological equivalent. Secularity as a condition of a non-ecclesiastical state may be distinguished with secularism as an ideology, with key Supreme court decisions being used to infer state favor toward the nonreligious, resulting in a "religion-free education" which "indoctrinates" the young into viewing secularism as the only frame of reference.[45]

Paul G. Kussrow and Loren Vannest ask, Is a religiously neutral public school education an oxymoron?, and see notable Supreme court Establishment Clause decisions (such as Engel v. Vatale, l962) as in essence creating "a legal fiction--a myth of religious neutrality." They argue that "Philosophy and religion blur when dealing with these basics, such as truth, while pointing to the ultimate questions and answers in life," and that, "Any discussion of a secular-religious distinction is self-refuting. For someone's values are always being advocated even in so called "neutral" settings."

Removing formal God (and morality) based religion from the public schools is seen to have the effect of supplanting it with Secular Humanism. This in turn promotes pantheism, the worship of nature with its evolutionary hypothesis, and the rejection of moral absolutes (especially those of the Bible), resulting in a dangerous ever-morphing morality and decline of beneficial traditional morality.[46]

In support of this understanding, declarations by humanists such as John J. Dunphy, are often invoked:

I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith...These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach,...The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new—the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism...[47]

Kussrow and Vannest argue that "since atheism is a religion under the establishment clause, (Malnak v. Yogi, l977), given the above facts, secular humanism must be considered a religion for the purposes of the First Amendment (Gove v. Mead School District, l985)", noting that "the American Humanist Association even has a religious tax exemption status approved by the Federal government."[48] In United States v. Kauten (2d Cir. 1943), conscientious objector status was granted to Mathias Kauten, not due to his belief in God, but on the basis of his “religious conscience.”[49]

Other evidence indicates that U.S. courts have moved from a generally substantive definition of religion, in which the religion affirms a transcendent deity, to a functional definition of religion, which Secular Humanism has been defined by some courts to be. In the Torcaso v. Watkins case in 1961, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of a Maryland notary public who was disqualified from office because he would not declare a belief in God. The Court argued that theistic religions could not be favored by the Court over non-theistic religions.

In the light of such, James Davison Hunter argues that,

To be legally consistent the courts will either have to articulate a constitutional double standard or apply the functional definition of religion to the no establishment clause just as they have to the free exercise [clause]. The latter would mean that secularistic faiths and ideologies would be rigorously prohibited from receiving even indirect support from the state, which needless to say would have enormous implications for public education.[50]


58 posted on 07/11/2010 3:18:19 PM PDT by daniel1212 ("Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out " (Acts 3:19))
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To: Tax-chick

RE: “And in the bigger picture, the insinuation of government into ever more areas of life that should be the private preserve of individuals, families, congregations and communities is something that all conservatives should oppose.”

Yet the evidence of this thread is that many of the posters on this thread will welcome that as long as it offers them an opportunity to poke the Catholic Church in the eye. It really outs their actual agenda. Shows you how shallow they hold conservative values. Liberals at heart.

59 posted on 07/11/2010 3:20:56 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Anyone pushing Romney must love socialism...Piss on Romney and his enablers!!" ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: Salvation
Salvation you are being too all inclusive here...besides the catholic church leadership may stand on these issues but I assure you it's membership does there own thing as they want and will...they just don't seek anyones approval on it. Generally their abortions are private or and hidden as are most of the activities (sins) committed because they are told if they don't stay with the catholic church their salvation is lost or they hide and lie...maintaining their church affiliation. Their sins they keep hidden.
60 posted on 07/11/2010 3:21:24 PM PDT by caww
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