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Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorance of Christ - Gospel of John Bible Study
The Ignorant Fishermen Blog ^ | 7/12/10 | DJP I.F.

Posted on 07/12/2010 2:35:43 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman

Who do you say that Jesus is? Do your thoughts, upbringing, religious background, or personal beliefs about Jesus line up with God’s Christ of the HOLY SCRIPTURES? You might ask, “Well, does it make a difference? My friend, I say unto you, it surely does!

TAKE THE JESUS CHALLENGE

The Bible is the final AUTHORITY on who Jesus Christ is. It is God’s absolute instruction manual and blueprint for life. If you reject the authority of the Word of God, my friend, you are doomed. There is no hope for your lost, sinful condition. The Bible teaches that “All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). All! You need to know the True Savior, not a make-believe one. It’s that serious. Don’t let your deceitful heart and pride ruin you and keep you from God’s redemption found in Jesus Christ.

Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorance of Christ!

Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify [speak] of me" (John 5:39).

The purpose of this Bible study is to bring a person through God’s simple plan of salvation using only the Gospel of John. When a Gospel of John is handed out to a person, it is a good idea to give the person this study along with it. The study was written in such a way (question/ answer format) that the person can see for themselves what the Bible really says about who Jesus Christ is, what He has done for us, and the necessity of putting our faith in Him.

For the person doing this study, please answer the following questions by looking up the Bible verses which are given, all of which can be found in the Gospel of John.

(Excerpt) Read more at theignorantfishermen.com ...


TOPICS: Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: biblestudy
The best Book of the Bible... the Gospel of John... get your Bible and dig in!
1 posted on 07/12/2010 2:35:46 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

the scriptures rock, but let’s also realize just as importantly:

1 Timothy 3:15:

“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the **church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”**


2 posted on 07/12/2010 2:38:25 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: raygunfan

Of a truth...!

My friend, Here is another great truth... The “church” is an organism not an organization.. Romans 12:5, Eph 1:22-23, 5:30, Col 1:18 etc...

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/lochurch/lochurch.htm


3 posted on 07/12/2010 2:49:13 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

the apostles were appointed by Jesus, 12 to be exact, to carry out his mission.

so Jesus has many, many followers, but instead of relying on some sort of ‘community of believers’ he called out 12 specific indivuduals to guide his flock. Even in Jesus’ time there was a structured church. the church could not exist if Jesus had not been around to start it himself and he did, but he left it in the hands of Peter (Mt 16:13-19).

and you can see there was a church, with a specific structure of leaders that were called by God to lead the church. This is the Catholic definition of church.

Now, if the church is founded upon the leaders then it is safe to say that “the church” can also mean “the leaders” or “the one’s with teaching authority” called the Magisterium.


4 posted on 07/12/2010 2:56:17 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

by the way, why did you change the scripture to say ‘a’ truth, when the word of God clearly says ‘OF’ truth.

You are radically changing the plain meaning of the word of God.

why?


5 posted on 07/12/2010 3:01:16 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: raygunfan; The Ignorant Fisherman
and you can see there was a church, with a specific structure of leaders that were called by God to lead the church. This is the Catholic definition of church. Now, if the church is founded upon the leaders then it is safe to say that “the church” can also mean “the leaders” or “the one’s with teaching authority” called the Magisterium.

Or is it all those called out by YHvH ?

A study of the word "church", in the Koine Greek : Ekklesia.

Was the "church" started at the YHvH commanded
Feast day of Shavuot (pentecost) as some say ?

or

Did the "church" exist earlier ?

Using the LXX as a guide we see that the Ekklesia
is first used in Deuteronomy 4:10

NAsbU Deuteronomy 4:10 "Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God
at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let
them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on
the earth, and that they may teach their children.'
Also see : Deu 4:10, Deu 9:10, Deu 18:16, Deu 23:3, Deu 23:4, Deu 23:9, Deu 31:30,
Jos 9:2, Jda 20.2, Jda 21:5, Jda 21:8, Jdg 20:2 Jdg 21:5, Jdg 21:8, 1 Sa 17:47,
1 Sa 19:20, 1 Ki 8:14, 1 Ki 8:22, 1 Ki 8:55, 1 Ki 8:65, 1 Ch 13:2, 1 Ch 13:4, 1 Ch 28:2,
1 Ch 28:8
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
6 posted on 07/12/2010 3:16:10 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
I love John because there is no other scripture which cuts to the chase like this verse:

John 10:30 I and my father are one.

That teed off some Jews let me tell ya!

7 posted on 07/12/2010 3:49:41 PM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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To: raygunfan

?........

of “a” truth is a popular phrase... do not look to deep into it.. lol


8 posted on 07/12/2010 4:00:29 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: sirchtruth
John 1, 8... gets into that.. that is still the problem today... but one day they will understand (Zech 12:9-14)

Always remember we (goys) have a great debt to the Jew (Romans 9-11) and that the first fruits of the called out assembly i.e., “the Church were Sons of Abraham. We were never taught that as children in the church along with a great many other Biblical realities that I attended. Psalm 110 - So many biblical truths in the New Testament point to this great Psalm! He's Almighty God.

9 posted on 07/12/2010 4:23:11 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: raygunfan

One was Judus.... who did not have a saving relationship to Him... Paul was added in later as he tells us.

True... there was leaders ship… but what I gave you was the BIBLICAL DEFINITION of the church. Which one will you follow after? That is the question we all must ask our selves.

Actually.. the “church” - the Called out assembly.. Was born on Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Christ Acts 1-2

When Israel as a nation rejected the Kingdom offer and Kingship of their Messiah and crucified Him under Gentile hands (Matt 27:25, Daniel 9:25-27)... The “church” was established under Christ on Pentecost by the Holy spirit (Acts 1-2) made up solely of Jewish men and women. Gentile were later added to the BODY later on Acts 10 and Romans 9-11 gets into that in much detail. He spoke about the church briefly but none of his disciples knew what He was talking about. They were waiting for Him to establish the Kingdom with Israel at the head of the nations (Acts 1).. that was their understanding. Remember that Peter, John, Andrew, James etc… were all JEWS….

No offence my friend… study your Bible a put aside the Catholic traditions. In the end that is what Almighty God will go by. (Matt 7:21-23, 15)


10 posted on 07/12/2010 4:28:25 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

It’s all Jewish my friend.... That is the window in which we must all look through for proper understanding and insight into the Holy Scripture’s.. led acourse by the Ruach HaKodesh!


11 posted on 07/12/2010 4:31:17 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

It’s been said before, if all that had survived of the New Testament over the ages was the books of John and Romans we would still have all we need for a complete NT doctrine. You can’t beat them. It’s difficult to read John 6 and believe that Paul had probably never read it when he wrote Romans. Then you remember both had the same author.


12 posted on 07/12/2010 7:19:40 PM PDT by circlecity
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

You wrote:

“No offence my friend… study your Bible a put aside the Catholic traditions.”

Okay, then stop using Catholic quotes. The following, “Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorance of Christ” is from a Catholic saint - St. Jerome.


13 posted on 07/12/2010 8:41:59 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: sirchtruth
John 10:30 I and my father are one. That teed off some Jews let me tell ya!

How do you square that verse with this one?

Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped...

14 posted on 07/12/2010 8:49:37 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
How do you square that verse with this one? Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped...

Excellent question! Read the next 2 verses. Besides, I'm not sure your quoting the scripture correctly.

Phil 2:6 Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God. (King James)

This is God humbling himself, lowering himself to the status of man so he could do what was required to save us. The love God has shown us knows no bounds and is extremely beyond reproach.

God is Jesus.

15 posted on 07/13/2010 5:25:59 AM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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To: sirchtruth
God is Jesus.

G-d says otherwise.

Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other!

Deuteronomy 32:39 See, now, that I, I am He -- and no god is with Me.

I Kings 8:60 So that all the nations of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other!

II Kings 19:19 Now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all kingdoms on earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God

Isaiah 40:18 To whom then will you liken God? To what likeness will you compare unto Him?

Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will you liken Me, that I should be his equal?" says the Holy One.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another. Neither My praise to graven images!

Isaiah 43:10-11 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior."

Isaiah 44:6-8 This is what the Lord says, Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty, "I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God! Who then is like Me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before Me . . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Isaiah 45:5-6 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God; I will strengthen you . . . . In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other!

Isaiah 45:21-22 . . . Who announced this from before, who declared it from the distant past? Is it not I, the Lord, and there is no God apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other!

Isaiah 46:5 To whom shall you liken Me and make Me equal and compare Me that we may be alike?

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the first things of old, that I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me.

Isaiah 48:11 . . . My honor I will not give to another.

Hosea 13:4 I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no god but Me, no savior except Me!

Psalm 73:25 Whom have I in heaven but You? Earth has nothing I desire besides You.

Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the Lord; You made the heavens, the heaven of the heavens and all their host, the earth and all that is upon it, the seas and all that is in them, and You give life to all, and the heavenly host bow down before You.

I Chronicles 17:20 O Lord, there is none like You, neither is there any god beside You, according to all that we have heard with our ears!

16 posted on 07/13/2010 1:00:39 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
Ok, those are some excellent verses. Jesus is another name for God. It's the name ABOVE all the other names for God such as: LOVE, SPIRIT, THE ETERNAL ONE, I AM, ADONAI, ELOHIM. Oh, BTW Elohim is plural, basically meaning God(s)...go figure that one out!

Why do you think some wanted to stone Jesus? It wasn't because he was bad mouthing them! Jesus would have been blaspheming himself if he wasn't God. Here's a question for you: Who can give eternal life?

Words mean things.

I can show you a plethora of verses were Jesus claims to be God. And those verses you are pointing out just reinforce Yeshua's claims.

I understand you may not believe Jesus is God, but there is no denying he claimed to be the ONE and ONLY God.

Thanks for those verses, they are great!

17 posted on 07/13/2010 1:58:25 PM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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To: vladimir998
my friend... don't get offended.. I did not say that in a condescending manner or demeanor.. I just suggested that you study the Holy Scriptures and see the contradictions in Catholic theology. I was born and raised Roman Catholic.. it wasn't until I got serious about God and my relationship to him that I started reading the Bible and saw for my self the great contradictions...

what do you have to lose....?

God Speed!

18 posted on 07/13/2010 2:49:08 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

You wrote:

“my friend... don’t get offended..”

I’m not offended so much as disappointed.

“I did not say that in a condescending manner or demeanor..”

That isn’t the problem.

“I just suggested that you study the Holy Scriptures and see the contradictions in Catholic theology.”

I have studied the scriptures and have discovered there are no such contradictions. Your assumption that I have never studied scriptures and your assumption that there are contradictions between the faith and the word is what I have a problem with.

“I was born and raised Roman Catholic..”

I don’t care. That sort of a comment always seems to be a preamble to an expression of ignorance (and I am not trying to offend you).

“it wasn’t until I got serious about God and my relationship to him that I started reading the Bible and saw for my self the great contradictions...”

And there is the ignorance. I have studied the scriptures in some detail. I do not claim to be an expert, but I certainly have invested more time and resources (and prayer certainly) to the study of God’s Word than many other people have. What I have discovered again and again is that the Catholic Church has been right all along.


19 posted on 07/13/2010 3:02:00 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: sirchtruth
Jesus is another name for God

Funny, G-d never mentions that...ever. Wouldnt you think that G-d, lets say at Sinai in particular, would say....Here is the law, the first of the Ten commandments is you shalt have no other gods before us? Instead of me? Or hey, I am the LORD your G-d, I am three-in-one? One day I will send my Son, who is really me? No...

So, we are expect to believe this: G-d gives us the Law, tells us He is alone, the only Savior etc, tells us in Deut 30, we can do the Law, it isnt in heaven, not across the sea, but near to us the we may DO IT! Tells us the Law is forever, Ps 111 (and many other)......THEN 1500 years later, says See! You cant do the law! (Even though I said you could). And I am sending my self in the flesh, (even though I said I am not a man) And he is my son and me, so forget about all the times I declared my singularity!

So, G-d lies to us about doing the law, lies to us about his nature, tricks us into floundering with the law for 1500 years....Only to send a perfect god-man being to cheat and do it perfect....this is the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob? The G-d of the universe?

Then, in a final act of perfidity, God then says, oh in the end of days, I will rebuild my Temple (Ezek 43/44) and restore the sin sacrifice, (Ezek 44)

Jer 33: 16In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Zech 14: 21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein..."

And why would G-d do this, when after Jesus came he told us to stop doing the Law (Paul), after Jesus was the once-for-all sacrifice? Sacrifices return? The Law returns?

And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. (Ezekiel 11:19-20)

My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. (Ezekiel 37:24)

Even the Goyim? The nations?

And many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths," for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3)

19O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

ADONAI, ELOHIM. Oh, BTW Elohim is plural, basically meaning God(s)...go figure that one out!

You dont know any Hebrew, do you.

There are many words in Hebrew that have a plural suffix -IM and are a singular entity or thing. Example: Water..Mayim.... Sky...Shamayim... Life...Chayim...

It in no way implies multiple lives, skys or waters....just like Elohim is one G-d, with implied vastness or greatness with a plural ending.

Here's a question for you: Who can give eternal life?

HaShem לַיהוָה and Him only. No Man. And the man from Nazareth gave no one eternal life. He may have claimed to be G-d but G-d says He is alone. And as listed above, the Christian narrative is contrary to scripture. Otherwise, G-d would not have said the Law is forever and Sacrifices would not be returning.

Shalom

20 posted on 07/13/2010 3:27:55 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960

Your post is the first outright Jewish attack on Christianity I’ve seen on Free Republic. You should be so proud! s/


21 posted on 07/13/2010 3:37:30 PM PDT by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis "Ya gotta saddle up your boys; Ya gotta draw a hard line")
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To: BnBlFlag

Why you almost sound offended! Isnt this type of polemic good for both parties? I think so. And I have a lot of FRiends that enjoy that type of back and forth discussion. Some are even pastors. Join in if you would like!


22 posted on 07/13/2010 3:48:03 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
First of all let me say, I immensely enjoy this discussion and I'm sure I will learn something.

Wouldn't you think that G-d, lets say at Sinai in particular, would say....Here is the law, the first of the Ten commandments is you shalt have no other gods before us?

Gen 1:26 And God said let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness...Hmmmm.

Since it appears you do not believe, nor grasp NT scripture, I'm not sure how to answer your sarcastic bombast.

There are many words in Hebrew that have a plural suffix -IM and are a singular entity or thing. Example: Water..Mayim.... Sky...Shamayim... Life...Chayim...

I hardly know any Hebrew but why use a plural suffix another way? I find it interesting a plural suffix implies Vastness or Greatness. The words you are using make sense, but calling something plural and not using it in the true sense of a plural doesn't. I'm not familiar enough with Hebrew in this area to know. I have not heard this before. I'll definitely look into it. All I know is, God certainly is vast and great!

HaShem לַיהוָה and Him only. No Man. And the man from Nazareth gave no one eternal life. He may have claimed to be G-d but G-d says He is alone.

Ok, so you are intoning this statement by Jesus is not true?

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me and I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish...

You can deny who Jesus is all you want, but I would encourage you to seek the one who claims to be God, was alive, died, and rose again. There also seems to be a matter of all those fulfilled prophecies too, and about a dozen other evidences showing Jesus is who he claims to be...

You would be wise to check out Genesis 5 and get the Hebrew meanings of those 10 names in the genealogy. And really look at them together. It might open your eyes a little, because at the very least you have to ask the question: How could this message come to pass over thousands of years out of the venerated Torah!?

One last thing - Do you believe the OT teaches a Messiah will come one day and die for the worlds sin?

23 posted on 07/13/2010 6:43:44 PM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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To: sirchtruth
First of all let me say, I immensely enjoy this discussion and I'm sure I will learn something.

Great me too, we all learn and that is good. As I told the other dude, it is a polemic not an "attack". I have seen Catholic vs Evangelical that is much more intense! And the Mormon threads??

Gen 1:26 And God said let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness...Hmmmm.

Okay, this is one of the most common "proof texts" for the Trinity for obvious reasons. Here is the commentary by Rashi, the famous 12th century Rabbi.

From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, (Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]

Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]

And this type of commentary is uniform thoughout the Jewish teaches. Rabbi Singer also comments the following:

Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.

If you had attended any one of my lectures you would know that the New International Version is hardly a Bible that can be construed as being friendly to Judaism. Yet, the NIV Study Bible also writes in its commentary on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our . . . Our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court. (see 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18)2

Charles Caldwell Ryrie, a highly regarded dispensationalist professor of Biblical Studies at the Philadelphia College of Bible and author of the widely read Bible commentary, The Ryrie Study Bible, writes in his short and to-the-point annotation on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our. Plurals of majesty.

The Liberty Annotated Study Bible, a Bible commentary published by the Reverend Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, similarly remarks on this verse,

The plural pronoun “Us” is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax.

The 10-volume commentary by Keil and Delitzsch is considered by many to be the most influential exposition on the “Old Testament” in evangelical circles. Yet in its commentary on Genesis 1:26, we find,

The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity; modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis . . . No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis . . . .

The question that immediately comes to mind is: What would compel these evangelical scholars -- all of whom are Trinitarian -- to determinedly conclude that Genesis 1:26 does not suggest the Trinity, but rather a majestic address to the angelic hosts of heaven? Why would the comments of the above conservative Christian writers so perfectly harmonize with the Jewish teaching on this verse?

The answer to this question is simple. If you search the Bible you will find that when the Almighty speaks of “us” or “our,” He is addressing His ministering angels. In fact, only two chapters later, God continues to use the pronoun “us” as He speaks with His angels. At the end of the third chapter of Genesis the Almighty relates to His angels that Adam and his wife have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and must therefore be prevented from eating from the Tree of Life as well; for if man would gain access to the Tree of Life he will “become like one of us.” The Creator then instructs his angels known as Cherubim to stand at the gate of the Garden of Eden waving a flaming sword so that mankind is prevented from entering the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life.

So, in the instances where the Heavenly court is addressed, usually invoking action that G-d is taking, is just like the Medeval Kings of Europe....saying something like..."let us do such and such...

Also, even the muzzies agree with this part of Torah.

Since it appears you do not believe, nor grasp NT scripture, I'm not sure how to answer your sarcastic bombast.

Oops...your the second person person to say that! Ahhh, dont take the bombast seriously...:o)

God certainly is vast and great!

Yes! And I personally think that the Hebrew, is clever in that regard...how else do you verbally describe the vastness of G-d...or the sky (also heaven)...by using a plural suffix!

Ok, so you are intoning this statement by Jesus is not true? John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me and I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish...

If Jesus really said that, (Jesus being god should have written his own books), and he meant that he personally gives eternal life, yeah...that would be a problem. Maybe he meant that he gives eternal life by his message, like a reformer, telling people to follow Torah but not by rote but through love, justice and humility....if that is what he meant...great!

You would be wise to check out Genesis 5 and get the Hebrew meanings of those 10 names in the genealogy. And really look at them together. It might open your eyes a little, because at the very least you have to ask the question: How could this message come to pass over thousands of years out of the venerated Torah!?

I will! Thanks for the suggestion.

One last thing - Do you believe the OT teaches a Messiah will come one day and die for the worlds sin?

Well no, not exactly. There is a messiah ben Joseph who is thought to suffer on behalf of the Jewish people and die. But he doesnt die for the worlds sins...no man can die for another mans sins.

Deuteronomy 24:16 it specifically says this: The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Exodus 32:30-35, Moses tries to offer himself as an atonement for the sins of the people. To be written out of God's book, means to be written out of the Book of Life, which means Moses was asking to die for the sins of the People. God's response was "No, it does not work that way, each man dies for his own sin:"

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Anyway, I think I know why you asked that question:

Suffering Servant of Isaiah

24 posted on 07/14/2010 11:08:25 AM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: vladimir998
my friend.. I was not calling you ignorant...at-tall...etc.. we see things different when it comes to some Scripture truth.. especially on salvation... i was just challenging you to take a deeper look into the Scriptures on many Catholic teachings etc... If you challenged me to do the same I would not take it in a bad way at all... sorry the wording of that email offended you.. If we were talking in person it would have sounded alot different as the email read... That is why emails stink.
25 posted on 07/14/2010 2:54:16 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: circlecity

I agree...

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/romans/romans.htm


26 posted on 07/14/2010 2:56:28 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify [speak] of me" (John 5:39).

This is a great example of why cherry-picking your verses is such a bad thing. Here's the entire sentence (of which you only quoted about half):

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (John 5:39-40)

The basic sense of the entire sentence is different from what you're saying. Jesus is talking about how one achieves eternal life -- it comes from having a relationship with Jesus, not through book learning.

To make the context absolutely clear, Jesus is talking about the Old Testament in this passage. And it certainly does bear witness about Jesus. The OT was not the only way that people knew about Him at the time, however, nor after His death and resurrection. After all, John's Gospel wasn't written until much, much later -- and yet people came to Know Christ just the same. You need to be careful about making such a broad claim.

I'll go further: Scripture is a great way to know about Christ, but that isn't the same as knowing Him. When Jesus referred to "coming to me," he meant it in the latter sense: to know him. If one only knows about Jesus from reading Scripture, I would suggest that he is still ignorant of Christ.

For people like us, "knowing Christ" depends quite a lot on the Holy Spirit....

27 posted on 07/14/2010 3:16:28 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

You wrote:

“my friend.. I was not calling you ignorant...at-tall...etc.. we see things different when it comes to some Scripture truth.. especially on salvation...”

I understand.

“i was just challenging you to take a deeper look into the Scriptures on many Catholic teachings etc...”

Already have.

“If you challenged me to do the same I would not take it in a bad way at all...”

Perhaps not, but the assumption you are making is the problem - not how you would handle something said to you.

“sorry the wording of that email offended you.. If we were talking in person it would have sounded alot different as the email read... That is why emails stink.”

They don’t stink. They are just limited.


28 posted on 07/14/2010 3:56:37 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: blasater1960
Okay, this is one of the most common "proof texts" for the Trinity for obvious reasons. Here is the commentary by Rashi, the famous 12th century Rabbi.

Alright, so what the Rabbi is saying is God was referring to angels? I've heard this before. I don't buy it. And the reason is because I believe Jesus is who he say he is. However, is the Rabbi's explanation plausible, Yes. I do not think there is 3 separate beings as our logic dictates, but when God speaks, I have found the truth may be beyond the obvious.

how else do you verbally describe the vastness of G-d...or the sky (also heaven)...by using a plural suffix!

I don't understand this? In English if I want to describe the vastness of the sky I don't use a plural. However, I do understand Hebrew uses things differently and I know this to be the case. The language is really ultra intriguing.

If Jesus really said that, (Jesus being god should have written his own books), and he meant that he personally gives eternal life, yeah...that would be a problem.

Well, then it is a problem for you because he either said it or he didn't. And he said much more stating he is, "I AM" and you know what that means! The problem you have is your only conclusion is Jesus was either lying, or it's all fabricated. That's a whole bunch of evidence to deny. I think the OT points directly to Jesus. I mean it's designed too. (Link Below)

There is a messiah ben Joseph who is thought to suffer on behalf of the Jewish people and die. But he doesn't die for the worlds sins....

Oh wow! I never heard that. When was he supposedly around?

Deuteronomy 24:16 it specifically says this: The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

This gets off the beaten track a little, but what was the whole thing about Abraham and Isaac God commanded? Oh, and then God himself provides the sacrifice on most likely the very same spot Jesus was crucified. Yes, man does not die for anothers sin, but if only God can forgive sin, and you will surely die (be separated from God) in your sin, how can God be true to his word without providing a sacrifice? Blood is required for the remission of sins, is it not?

On another note - This is simply fascinating to me: I just pulled this page because it was the simplest to review...There's others which go much more in depth. Genesis 5 Names

29 posted on 07/14/2010 4:30:15 PM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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To: sirchtruth
Alright, so what the Rabbi is saying is God was referring to angels? I've heard this before. I don't buy it. And the reason is because I believe Jesus is who he say he is.

Angels and heavenly court. Yeah, it is difficult to "buy it" when a person is a trinitarian. There are so many verses that contradict the trinitarian view, people hold on to that one to the bitter end...:o)

However, I do understand Hebrew uses things differently and I know this to be the case. The language is really ultra intriguing.

Yes! In addition to reading right-to-left and having no vowels, the Hebrew langauge is constructed from a relatively few number of root words. It is an efficient langauge. The root words are interesting when a person is parsing text because you can sometimes get hints of deeper meanings by analyzing root meanings. If that makes sense...

I think the OT points directly to Jesus. I mean it's designed too.

Well of course you do, the way Jesus is painted into the scriptures, it would make any reasonable person think it is talking about him. Problem is...it isnt! For example:

OT- The seed of a woman...supposed to be Jesus vs Satan. It isnt.

OT-The virgin birth-...supposed to foretell Mary giving birth to Jesus.....It isnt.

OT-For unto us a child is born....supposed to be Jesus...It isnt, it is Hezekiah

OT-IS 53 the suffering servant...supposed to be Jesus...can't possibly be Jesus.

OT-Psalm 22 ....they pierced my hands and feet.....it doesnt say that in the Hebrew. Not even close

OT-Zech 12:10...they will look upon me who they have pierced...it doesnt say that in the Hebrew....plus this is a future event.

So when a person see these, in addition to the fact that G-d forbids human sacrifice, human vicarious atonement, doesnt require a blood sacrifice, says the law is forever, sacrifices are returning basically every major tenent of Christianty is overturned by the OT, not reinforced. A person just has to have the honesty to look at the Hebrew in it's correct context and translation, then the OT says nothing Christological.

There is a messiah ben Joseph who is thought to suffer on behalf of the Jewish people and die. But he doesn't die for the worlds sins.... Oh wow! I never heard that. When was he supposedly around?

Hasnt happened yet. Some believe he is the personage in Zech 12:10....again, Zech 12:10 doesnt say in Hebrew what the Christian bibles say. Much different. Here is a link.

Messiah ben Yosef

Oh, and then God himself provides the sacrifice on most likely the very same spot Jesus was crucified.

NO! Jesus was killed at golgotha, outside the city. Abraham offered up Issac on Mt Moriah, the exact spot of the Temple Alter.

Blood is required for the remission of sins, is it not?

NO! The book of Hebrews is misquoting Lev 17:10-11. If you read Lev 17:1-14, G-d is making abundantly clear, do not eat blood!....Dont eat it, dont cook with it, dont do anything with it other than sprinkle it on the alter or pour it out on the ground. Why? Because the life is in the blood. And blood is used in an atonement, under CERTAIN, circumstances. Mostly, UNintentional sins...in only less than tens cases or so, intentional sins.

The key thing is, Lev 17 does NOT say that blood is the ONLY way to remit sins (like it says in Hebrews)

Lev 5:11 'If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah [a] of fine flour for a sin offering. He must not put oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering. 12 He is to bring it to the priest, who shall take a handful of it as a memorial portion and burn it on the altar on top of the offerings made to the LORD by fire. It is a sin offering. 13 In this way the priest will make atonement for him for any of these sins he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

G-d knows that there will be long periods without a temple and sacrifice

Hos 3 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

So the bible says in many places, for forgiveness of sins, we are to pray, repent, charity, fast.....all of these are means of forgiveness. No blood required.!

Thanks for the 5 name link....checking it now.

30 posted on 07/14/2010 9:02:13 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
So the bible says in many places, for forgiveness of sins, we are to pray, repent, charity, fast.....all of these are means of forgiveness. No blood required!

It's not that I'm disagreeing with what you wrote, but there is blood sacrifice. One of the reasons you don't see me quoting too much scripture is not because I can't, it's because there is too much I could quote. Also, it's important to try to grasp the ideas with in the spirit of the text in total. (All the verse surrounding the topic) With that said, let me point this one out to you.

Leviticus 1:2-5, 2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. 3If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. 4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. 5And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

And they did this for how many years in the temple? Even to the point of charlatan's trying to sell unblemished animals!

You and I both know animal sacrifice, or more succinctly, death was NECESSARY for remission of sin. Do you discard this? Yes, there were other things, but God gives CLEAR instructions to Moses of what was required.

In my mind if you cast this requirement away, you are not being honest with yourself, and it causes me to question whether or not you can, or want to see the whole plan God developed for mankind? It's one thing to not believe, it's another to deny the facts right in front of you. Blood sacrifice was most certainly required for the remission of sin as laid out in OT scripture. It only makes sense based on what God said in the past. Sin is death. (He doesn't take that back)

Going a little backwards here, even if you take Jesus out of the equation you still have to contend with all those prophecies. You still have to acknowledge God's direction and all the signs he's given. Think about this.

The supreme being says: If you do this you will die and be separated from me forever.

One of the few things God can NOT do is lie. So, he loves us enough to give us a way back to him without breaking his word. In the OT way, something HAD to fulfill the requirement for sin, so as to not make him a liar.

The bible is a message to mankind. It basically says, I'm God, I love you. I've set things up for you in a way, despite your evil hearts, which allows you to come back to me. Even if you take the NT out of the equation, as one of God's chosen, (Jewish) you are still searching for the redemptive end plan. You must acknowledge God's whole work, not just a couple of verses here or there which you might think cast aside other declarations by God. I'm only talking right now about what is in the OT.

In my view YOU are purposely avoiding half of the message by not relying on God's grace, but his law! Grace involves spirit. I challenge you search your heart and tell me if God hasn't provided GRACE. Almost all of scripture points to this...

Do you think the OT teaches these three things physically, as well as conceptual: (I'm not talking about the trinity)

The Mind - The Heart - The Spirit - The Soul?

LOL! I must have finish writing this whole thing an hour ago, but keep going back and adding things...;->

Thanks for your links.

31 posted on 07/15/2010 7:27:15 AM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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To: sirchtruth
You and I both know animal sacrifice, or more succinctly, death was NECESSARY for remission of sin. Do you discard this? Yes, there were other things, but God gives CLEAR instructions to Moses of what was required.

In my mind if you cast this requirement away, you are not being honest with yourself, and it causes me to question whether or not you can, or want to see the whole plan God developed for mankind? It's one thing to not believe, it's another to deny the facts right in front of you. Blood sacrifice was most certainly required for the remission of sin as laid out in OT scripture. It only makes sense based on what God said in the past. Sin is death. (He doesn't take that back)

Okay, lets go through this carefully, this is important. It isnt that I discard it. On the contrary. But while we are in this period of exile, there isnt that option. Sacrifice is obviously necessary when there is a temple and alter. G-d, for his own purposes put it on a sliding scale, depending on what a person is capable of offering. A the top of the scale bulls and goats, at the bottom, turtle doves and at the very bottom, fine flour. There is a "cost" to sin. This is done when G-ds glory resides among us in the temple.

Now when are in a period of exile. No temple, no alter. Now what?

Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their G-d, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. (repeat)

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of G-d [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou wilt not despise.

Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. [This] also shall please the LORD better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs.

Exodus 30:16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.(Charity)

Prayer, repentance, fasting

Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed G-d, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. [6] For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. [7] And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: [8] But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto G-d: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. [9] Who can tell if G-d will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? [10] And G-d saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and G-d repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. (All of Nineveh was spared...forgiven....no blood sacrifice!)

2 Chronicles 6:24 And if thy people Israel be put to the worse before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee; and shall return and confess thy name, and pray and make supplication before thee in this house; [25] Then hear thou from the heavens, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest to them and to their fathers. [26] When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou dost afflict them; [27] Then hear thou from heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, when thou hast taught them the good way, wherein they should walk; and send rain upon thy land, which thou hast given unto thy people for an inheritance.

2 Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; [14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Okay, so there are examples of forgiveness of sin, with and without the temple. When the people were exiled to Babylon, did they all go to hell because they couldnt offer a blood sacrifice? NO! G-d gave them the above means of forgiveness. In this long exile, that is now coming an end, did the Jews of the last 2000 years go to hell? No! They obtained forgiveness through, prayer, repentance, charity and fasting.

Is the entire world better off when there is a temple with sacrifices? Yes!

And that is why the Temple, Beit HaMikdash, is returning! This a major problem for the Christian narrative! Read Ezekiel 43/44. The temple will be rebuilt, G-ds presence will once again dwell among us! Scarifices will be offered!

Jer 33: 16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it [c] will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.' 17 For this is what the LORD says:'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18 nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.'

Zech 14:21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them.

Ezek 44: 4 Then the man brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple. I looked and saw the glory of the LORD filling the temple of the LORD, and I fell facedown. 5 The LORD said to me, "Son of man, look carefully, listen closely and give attention to everything I tell you concerning all the regulations regarding the temple of the LORD

9Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel. (Interesting, the law of circumcision applies to gentiles in the 3rd temple!)

23And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. 24And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths. (We are not dead to the law as Paul insists)

29They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering: and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.

So, back to your original statement about the sacrifice being necessary, yes! When there is a temple and G-ds holy presence is dwelling in the temple, you bet! And it IS RETURNING! So, the 60,000 dollar question is, what about Jesus? He was supposed to be the last sacrifice...the Once for all sacrifice.....but sacrfices ARE returning? So, there is a fatal problem for the church. Jesus (who couldnt be a sacrifice anyways, no human sacrifices, no human vicarious atonement)....was not the last sacrifice...

In my view YOU are purposely avoiding half of the message by not relying on God's grace, but his law! Grace involves spirit. I challenge you search your heart and tell me if God hasn't provided GRACE. Almost all of scripture points to this.

You can see from my above statements that I accept it all! There is a time coming (very soon) when all will be restored by Moshiach ben David. And regarding Grace. Yes! Big time important. But that is where the Church has misunderstood the OT system. The Church has taught Law/Gospel and Sin/Grace as OT/NT divisions. But what I maintain is that G-d has always extended Grace to his people. Even under the sacrificial system, it is ultimately grace and mercy of G-d that saves us from sin.

28 Yet give attention to your servant's prayer and his plea for mercy, O LORD my God. Hear the cry and the prayer that your servant is praying in your presence this day. 29 May your eyes be open toward this temple night and day, this place of which you said, 'My Name shall be there,' so that you will hear the prayer your servant prays toward this place. 30 Hear the supplication of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place. Hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

G-d asks us to do the law, tells us we can do it, but knows we cant do it perfectly, nor do we have to! We repent (teshuvah), pray, give charity and do our best to do the Mitzvot (commandments) and that act of doing the mitzvot, helps to repair the world, make it a better place, doing the mitzvot elevates the physical into the spiritual. Even the mundane acts of washing your hands is an opportuniy to thank G-d. Setting apart shellfish and pig meat is an opportunity to thank G-d, to acknowlege his Kingship, a reminder that He is in control, we just dont do what WE want. And when we do these things, it is a pleasure! Not a curse. The world is a better place and G-d will return to his dwelling place on earth....then all mankind will benefit from the house for all nations!

32 posted on 07/15/2010 11:15:57 AM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
Okay, lets go through this carefully, this is important. It isnt that I discard it. On the contrary. But while we are in this period of exile, there isnt that option. Sacrifice is obviously necessary when there is a temple and alter. G-d, for his own purposes put it on a sliding scale, depending on what a person is capable of offering. A the top of the scale bulls and goats, at the bottom, turtle doves and at the very bottom, fine flour. There is a "cost" to sin. This is done when G-ds glory resides among us in the temple.

Ok, I see what you're saying here. I understand more readily when you say "exile" based on your belief. It almost makes perfect sense based on what I believe and the little I know about the Jewish religion. I definitely understand based on the scriptures you quote where you are coming from. However you're leaving a multitude of things aside which are also in scripture (OT) and in the signs of scripture. Now, here's my problem. I know I can search throughout scripture and find tit for tat, but I think it's important I don't just do that, but try earnestly to understand your viewpoint, which I'm pretty sure I do. The only thing is I have to show you why and give a reason for you to see what I see. If a blood sacrifice offering is not required then God's grace is...however there has to be an atonement for sin or God's word do not ring true.

And that is why the Temple, Beit HaMikdash, is returning! This a major problem for the Christian narrative! Read Ezekiel 43/44. The temple will be rebuilt, G-ds presence will once again dwell among us! Scarifices will be offered!

I beleive the temple will be rebuilt and have no problem at all with it. In fact most Christians believe it will be rebuilt.

So, the 60,000 dollar question is, what about Jesus? He was supposed to be the last sacrifice...the Once for all sacrifice.....but sacrfices ARE returning? So, there is a fatal problem for the church. Jesus (who couldnt be a sacrifice anyways, no human sacrifices, no human vicarious atonement)....was not the last sacrifice...

Because you have stated ONLY God can forgive sin and is so stated, Jesus is God. If you believe Jesus no problem. God actually has another plan for the Jewish people, however you still have confess Jesus is Lord.

Even under the sacrificial system, it is ultimately grace and mercy of G-d that saves us from sin.

Yes, we agree on this, however there still has to be atonement, that's where the Messiah comes in. Even the rabbi's of old taught this! The temple was destroyed in 70ad...Why hasn't another one been built yet?

It's such a pleasure discussing this with someone who is solely of the Jewish faith! My perspective is quite different bantering with you than say a Mormon or someone from another faith.

I am on a search to locate scriptures in the OT to show you. I have learned quite a bit in this discussion, thank you.

33 posted on 07/15/2010 12:49:53 PM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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To: sirchtruth
If a blood sacrifice offering is not required then God's grace is...however there has to be an atonement for sin or God's word do not ring true.

Well I would tend to agree with you there. The upcoming sacrificial system return, will bring back the blood atonement, which G-d apparently requires when his shekhinah resides on earth and dwells among us.

During our exile, now 2000 years but coming to an end B"H., G-d had to give us an alternative atonement which has been two fold. One, is the previous mentioned post, prayer repentance, charity etc. The other fact is that G-d has afflicted the Jewish people for 2000 years. It has not been an easy exile.

In Isaiah 54, the prophet recounts how Israel, in the singular, is "despised," "forsaken," and "afflicted."

Isaiah 40: 1Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

Israel has recieved twice what she deserved...6 million Jews, 1.5 million children butchered and up in smoke? I'd say that would apply to getting twice what she deserved...

Psalm 90:14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days. 15Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil. 16Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.

Isaiah 14:32 What answer shall be given to the envoys of that nation? "The LORD has established Zion, and in her his afflicted people will find refuge."

Isaiah 49:13 Shout for joy, O heavens; rejoice, O earth; burst into song, O mountains! For the LORD comforts his people and will have compassion on his afflicted ones.

Isaiah 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

Micah 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Nahum 1:12 Thus saith the LORD; Though they be quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more.

So there you have a list of verses where G-d is afflicting his people....paid for their sins by affliction.

The temple was destroyed in 70ad...Why hasn't another one been built yet?

Well, one can only speculate...my thought is that technology had to catch up with prophecy. If Israel had restored it's temple say, in AD 400, they still would have been an agrarian society subject to big powers, Rome or Ottomans etc. But now look at Israel! It is one of the intellectual capitals, more companies and patents per capita than anyplace on the planet. And now Israel has the ability through her military technological might, to defend herself. (Including nukes). So, in a war of Gog-Magog, and all nations coming against Jerusalem and Judah, now Israel has the technology, coupled with G-ds miracles, to fullfill all of scripture....my hunch!

It's such a pleasure discussing this with someone who is solely of the Jewish faith! My perspective is quite different bantering with you than say a Mormon or someone from another faith.

Great, thoroughly enjoying your dialogue as well! Thanks for that.

34 posted on 07/15/2010 2:08:04 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
Speaking of the temple being rebuilt, I remember seeing an article several years ago about a Red Calf. I keep hearing about Israel starting to rebuild, but somehow never hear anything else.

I think certain things have to be in place before it happens. Can you expound on this a little?

35 posted on 07/16/2010 7:05:23 AM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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To: sirchtruth
Speaking of the temple being rebuilt, I remember seeing an article several years ago about a Red Calf. I keep hearing about Israel starting to rebuild, but somehow never hear anything else.

Sure! Many of the implements for the Temple are already made and ready to go! The breast plates of the High Priest, the priestly garments, the golden menorah, the Laver (for hand washing) the preistly crown. Rabbi Richman has a lot of information at his website. He is on the Sanhedrin that is reforming.

All here: Temple Institute

36 posted on 07/16/2010 8:02:55 AM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
He is on the Sanhedrin that is reforming.

Sanhedrin. I haven't heard that word in a while!
Thanks for the link. What did you think of Genesis 5?

37 posted on 07/16/2010 9:26:15 AM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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To: sirchtruth
What did you think of Genesis 5?

It is interesting...I need to spend more time analyzing how they came up with their word bank and such. I am a little suspicious but willing to give it a honest assessment!

38 posted on 07/16/2010 10:49:50 AM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
I need to spend more time analyzing how they came up with their word bank and such. I am a little suspicious but willing to give it a honest assessment!

Great. I would love for someone to investigate (Especially someone who might know (Hebrew) just to satisfy my own curiosity. I mean are those Hebrew names translated correctly? I believe they are based on what I have seen and heard.

I not talking about Genesis 5, but there is just so much conjecture out there you really have to keep an open mind and heart. Thanks.

39 posted on 07/16/2010 12:34:55 PM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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