MORMON CHRISTOLOGY: A CHRIST-TEST FOR CHRISTIAN IDENTITY - OPEN

ONTRUTH.com ^ | 2000 | Cky J. Carrigan

[T Minus Four]

I always like the very diplomatic way the Catholic Church says things...

Yup. Just like Jesus.

[ejonesie22]

I was married in the Greek Orthodox Church in Mobile Al in 1988, and I was a practicing Methodist at that time. All I had to provide was a copy of my Baptism record.

Later I converted, again I was not re baptized, the Methodist record stood as acknowledgment of my commitment TO THE SAME CHRIST. (emphasis added for our LDS friends)

I cannot think of two traditions that could be seen as being "opposites" more than the GOA and the Methodist Church, yet in the end they stand for the same thing.

[ejonesie22]

Yet the Arians did not prevail...

Sometimes God knows what he is doing...

[Blowtorch]

I was referring to differences related to the nature of Christ, not in denominational differences in general. I would say that the predominant belief among Christian groups is fairly consistent, and all of them at odds with Mormonism.

Separating Christ belief from denominational belief is tricky, but in doing so you do have a point. My point is that the LDS church may desire camaraderie with traditional Christian denominations, but in the end doesn't need their consensus to call themselves Christians. My belief is that trying to have personal relationship with Christ makes you a Christian, however misguided your church or doctrine may be. So being Baptist doesn't make you any more or less Christian than being Mormon, except in the eyes of the world. God will judge our hearts. Far to many people are too busy judging others, Mormons included. Regretfully, there is a degree of being judgmental when you call others judgmental, so I am guilty of the same.

[Colofornian]

Christ said we must be born of the body and of the spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Sounds like work to me.

(Yeah, be sure to emphasize every Mothers' Day to your Mom how much labor you had to do in that hospital room yay # of years ago)

[Colofornian]

I’m going to worry about the log in my eye(and it’s a sequoia) before I start passing judgment on other peoples beliefs.

Translation: So if you have kids, or will have kids, you won't advise them to steer clear of...
...premarital sex -- homosexual or heterosexual...
...cohabitation...
...substance abuse...
...etc...
...All because you've got constant eye logjams?

Tell us: What beliefs and convictions will you take a stand on? (And why, if any, some but not apparently others? IOW: Where do you draw the line and why?)

[greyfoxx39]

My point is that the LDS church may desire camaraderie with traditional Christian denominations, but in the end doesn't need their consensus to call themselves Christians.

I really don't care if mormons wish to call themselves "blue-faced magic underwear gods-to-be" as long as they stop demanding that Christians call mormons Christians! They have been happy to be at the end of the "Christian" line for 170 years in their desire to not be associated with the "abominable gentiles", and NOW they are shoving and browbeating in order to force their way to the FRONT of the Christian line because they actually, really believe mormonism to be superior to any other belief.

 

The Seven Deadly Heresies (Excerpt)

"Now, in order to have things in perspective, let me identify the three greatest heresies in all Christendom. They do not prevail among us, fortunately, but they are part of the gross and universal darkness that covers the earth and blots out from the minds of men those truths upon which salvation rests.

The greatest truth known to man is that there is a God in heaven who is infinite and eternal; that he is the creator, upholder, and preserver of all things; that he created us and the sidereal heavens and ordained and established a plan of salvation whereby we might advance and progress and become like him. The truth pertaining to him is that he is our Father in heaven, that he has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, that he is a literal person, and that if we believe and obey his laws we can gain the exaltation that he possesses. Now that is the greatest truth and the most glorious concept known to the human mind, and the reverse of it is the greatest heresy in all Christendom.

The Christian heresy, where God is concerned, is that Deity is a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space; that he is three beings in one; that he is uncreated, incorporeal, and incomprehensible; that he is without body, parts, or passions; that he is a spirit nothingness that is everywhere and nowhere in particular present. These are concepts written in the creeds had in the churches of the world.

The second greatest truth in all eternity pertains to the divine sonship of the Lord, Jesus Christ. It includes the eternal verity that he was foreordained in the councils of eternity to come to earth and be the redeemer of men, to come and ransom men from the temporal and spiritual death brought upon them by the fall of Adam. This second greatest truth is that Christ worked out the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice because of which all men are raised in immortality and those who believe and obey are raised also unto eternal life.

Now the second greatest heresy in all Christendom is designed to destroy the glories and wonders of the infinite and eternal atonement. It is that men are saved by some kind of lip service, by the grace of God, without work and without effort on their part.

The third greatest truth known to mankind is that the Holy Spirit of God is a revelator and a sanctifier, that he is a personage of spirit, that his assigned ministry and work in the eternal Godhead is to bear record of the Father and of the Son, to reveal them and their truths to men. His work is to cleanse and perfect human souls, to burn dross and evil out of human souls as though by fire. We call that the baptism of fire.

Now the opposite of that is the third greatest heresy in all Christendom. It is that revelation has ceased, that God's mouth is closed, that the Holy Ghost no longer inspires men, that the gifts of the Spirit were done away with after the death of the ancient apostles, and that we no longer need to follow the course they charted. "

MORE AT LINK TO BYU ARTICLE

[Le Chien Rouge]

‘if you have kids, or will have kids’

-—Not going to have Kids, I’m smart enough to know I would be a horrible parent-—

‘What beliefs and convictions will you take a stand on’

the Sanctity of Life and devotion to God.

My crisis in my Roman Catholic faith is my own personal cross I must carry alone and I need to focus on strengthening my faith and devotion to God, Individually, before I ‘discuss’ others beliefs.

Perhaps ‘judgment’ was a poor choice of words....and I’n not your enemy.

[Blowtorch]

I take note then that by skipping the other points, you are unable to disagree with my observations on other evangelical denominations and their common view of Jesus. That is good to know.

I agreed with that point in my post 44. As to your other point that we are saved by grace, that belief is also held by Mormons. But as you know, faith without works is dead, so glossing over works as "out of the picture" is not biblical. I don't mean to skip over other comments but have other things - more later.

[Blowtorch]

I really don't care if mormons wish to call themselves "blue-faced magic underwear gods-to-be" as long as they stop demanding that Christians call mormons Christians!

I attend LDS church weekly and have never heard any leader or member for that matter make such a demand. We call ourselves Christian, but that is freedom of religion. Your point is valid in that we can call ourselves anything we want, but regarding your word "demand," if you have anything that resembles that in your arsenal, feel free to show it. I haven't seen it.

[Godzilla]

I agreed with that point in my post 44.

No, not from what I went back and read, nor did 44 address the specific points of doctrine.

As to your other point that we are saved by grace, that belief is also held by Mormons.

Once again you miss the cavat mormons place upon the use of grace - AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. Thus works is placed in front of grace as a means of earning it. Please note that grace is something given - not earned or deserved - within Christianity. So to make this statement is grossly incorrect and displays clear ignorance of mormon and Christian doctrines.

But as you know, faith without works is dead, so glossing over works as "out of the picture" is not biblical. I don't mean to skip over other comments but have other things - more later.

Context blow - what came first - faith or works? In James faith comes first and "works" are a later expression coming from that faith. In no place in the bible will you find WORKS as a REQUIREMENT to be saved - none. You should read what Paul teaches about works blow.

We are saved FOR works not BY works - and that is a significant difference between Christians and mormons.

[Blowtorch]

Yes, after all we can do. Are we not free agents to act? Are ordinances such as baptism not necessary? Why was Jesus then baptized? He both commanded us to be born of the water and of the spirit and was baptized himself. It makes a clear point, Christ, having no need for baptism was yet baptized. He practiced what he taught. More later my thorough debater.

[ejonesie22]

Only an LDS member would view baptism as work...

[Godzilla]

Yes, after all we can do.

Mormon concept - not biblical.

Are ordinances such as baptism not necessary?

No. The thief on the cross wasn't able to be baptized, yet Jesus promised him salvation anyway. The jailer came to Paul asking what was necessary to be saved, didn't include baptism, nor were gentiles Peter came to - yet they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before water baptism.

He both commanded us to be born of the water and of the spirit and was baptized himself.

That baptism wasn't in existance at the time blow - since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. The whole context of this is that the water, refers to the natural birth process.

It makes a clear point, Christ, having no need for baptism was yet baptized. He practiced what he taught.

Ah - there was no Savior nor sacrifice on the cross at that point blow. Jesus was following OT and current Jewish principles and practices at that time. Tell us, unto who was Jesus baptized into? Did Jesus need to be 'saved'. If all that was necessary was a dunking, then Jesus' sacrifice was not necessary - only baptism was needed.

In Matt. 3:15, Jesus tells us that His baptism was "to fulfill all righteousness". The basic action of baptism is identification, so Jesus identified with righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Jesus’ day, when a Gentile would convert to Judaism, he would have to be publicly baptized to identify him as a convert. Obviously, Jesus was not converting to anything.

Secondly, Jesus' baptism served as an official and public inauguration of His earthly ministry (John 1:26-27, 31). It was at this time that Jesus was revealed to Israel as their Messiah.

[greyfoxx39]

I am not anti-Mormon, I just have a huge problem with the church pretending to be the way the truth and the light. By doing this they have led millions away from the True Jesus.

I have a huge problem with the way mormonism parses "salvation". They will tell innocents that mormon belief is that everyone will be "saved", and hide the fact that "saved" in mormon belief means resurrected to a "kingdom" with several levels, and the ONLY souls that reach what most Christians believe to be salvation, dwelling in the presence of God and His Son, are those who reach "exaltation" through the "restored gospel" of the mormon church.

These souls must be baptized, alive or dead by proxy, by the "proper authority" (mormon of course), confirmed into the mormon church and either they or their proxies must take part in certain rituals in the mormon temple and live up to the "covenants" made there.

Those who reject mormonism will be condemned to the "telestial kingdom"

The Telestial Kingdom

The Lord compared telestial glory to that of the stars (see D&C 76:81). Those who shall inherit this kingdom are those who:

• Rejected the gospel (mormonism), the testimony of Jesus, the prophets, and the everlasting covenant (see D&C 76:82, 101).

• Were liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers (see D&C 76:103).

• Loved “and [made] a lie” (D&C 76:103).

Among other blessings and limitations, those who inherit the telestial kingdom will:

• Suffer the wrath of God on earth (see D&C 76:104) and not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, which will take place after the Millennium (see D&C 76:85). 3

• Be denied the Savior’s fulness (see D&C 76:86).

• Be able to receive the Holy Ghost through the ministration of beings in higher glories (see D&C 76:86–88).

• Never be able to come where God and Christ dwell

Messages from the Doctrine and Covenants: The Three Degrees of Glory

[Blowtorch]

Excuse you. Did you not read how I used the word? I tried clearing this up once for you, but you are being dishonest now. Maybe you should consult a dictionary and the religious sense of the word rather than degrading it to terms understood by laymen. I thought you were a religious person.

[ejonesie22]

That “works” is the plural of “work” is English 101.

That one would try and make hay out of such a fact in order to prove some convoluted ill conceived point in order to not deal with the facts of their position is Mormonism 101...

[Blowtorch]

No. The thief on the cross wasn't able to be baptized, yet Jesus promised him salvation anyway. The jailer came to Paul asking what was necessary to be saved, didn't include baptism, nor were gentiles Peter came to - yet they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before water baptism.

The early members of the church were baptized. Why, if it was not necessary. Many Bible versus state this. I will quote them if you'd like. Please clarify the intention behind their baptism if it is not necessary. I'll address your other points and more later.

[Blowtorch]

You are not engaged in serious debate but attack only. That is not Christian of you.

[Colofornian]

I attend LDS church weekly and have never heard any leader or member for that matter make such a demand. We call ourselves Christian, but that is freedom of religion.

Then I guess, 'Torch, you have absolutely zero objections to the fLDS calling themselves LDS and Mormon, right?

Wait. (I guess Mormon "prophets" do object...which, based upon the phrasing you chose, means your "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley wasn't into "freedom of religion" for the fLDS, eh?)

Tell us, 'Torch, how consistent you are: Do you consider the following statements to reflect the same type of "freedom of religion" sentiments you've just espoused?

Hinckley quote #1: There is no such thing as a “Mormon Fundamentalist.” It is a contradiction to use the two words together. Source: Ensign, Nov. 1998

Hinckley quote #2: Sept. 8, 1998 airing of Larry King Live show:
KING: But when the word [polygamy] is mentioned, when you hear the word, you think Mormon, right?
HINCKLEY: You do it mistakenly. They have no connection to us whatsoever. They don't belong to the church. There are actually no Mormon fundamentalists.

Paragon Defender recently added this thread - Myths and Reality - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ... the clip he linked to has Hinckley saying that the term “Mormon” should NEVER be applied to these other religions and there is no such thing as a “Mormon Fundamentalist.”

Don't you find that interesting, 'Torch? I mean would you say we were practicing your style of "religious freedom" if we said that "Christian" should NEVER be applied to these other (Mormon) religions and there is no such thing as a "Mormon Christian"???

So I'd like to know if your "Freedom of religion" has only a "one-way street" sign attached to it.