Posted on 07/18/2010 9:29:44 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
God vindicated by the Gospel Posted on July 19, 2010 by billrandles
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.( Romans 1:16-17)
The Gospel , Paul tells us, is a revelation of the Righteousness of God. In it, the ways of God are vindicated, they are utterly consistent, God has remained absolutely true to His Holy character.
The fall of man into sin and condemnation, presented a challenge to the very nature of God himself. God is love- therefore in mercy He would save man from the power and effects of sin. Yet God is Holy- He hates and resists to the uttermost all that is evil, corrupt, false, and twisted.
God is not like (fallen) man, who can live with contradictions within himself. We don’t live with absolute integrity, we fall short of our own ideals, we have conflicts within our being, that we just accept as “being human”.
Not so God, who never denies Himself. He is absolute in all of His perfections. He is not “part Holy” and “part Love”- He is absolute Holiness, simultaneously He is true and absolute Love. God has no parts. He is.
This is the problem sin presented. How can a holy God forgive and receive unholy sinners? Love calls for the forgiveness of sinners, Holiness calls for the eternal judgment of sinners. Will He forsake Holiness for Love? Or Love for Holiness?
God revealed this problem to Moses when He revealed His glory to Him by declaring His name;
And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.Exodus 34:6-7
Notice the paradox? How can God on the one hand, forgive sin and iniquity, and transgression; and on the other hand “By no means clear the guilty”? How can God be Love and Holy at the same time? As Psalm 85 proclaims, how can Mercy and truth meet together ? This is the problem that the gospel has addressed.
In the cross of Jesus, which is the heart of the gospel, we see the of mercy and truth, Love and Holiness. The horror of Jesus’ abandonment by God, the crown of thorns, the humiliating and accursed criminal’s death on the tree- this is the revelation of the Holiness of God!
“By no means did He clear the guilty”, God’s holy indignation and wrath against all of the sin of the world, is revealed in the horror of Calvary. God judged all of us , the guilty, in the person of His Son!
The cross also is the revelation of the Love of God, God is Love! Vicarious sacrifice, substitution, “the just for the unjust to bring us to God”, as Peter put it, is the ultimate reality. The center of heaven’s worship, in the very throne room of God, is the adoration of the Lamb with the very marks of slaughter, who “loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood”(Rev 1:5).
Romans goes on to say that the Gospel shows God to be “Just and the Justifier of him who believes in Jesus.” God had to save us in a Righteous way, A holy God could not even pardon sinners without satisfying in an adequate way the Claims of the broken law of God, the offended holiness of God, the shattered image of God!
In the Gospel God is vindicated- by the cross, the Holiness of God was upheld, he didn’t “clear the guilty” he punished us in our substitute- the crucified Jesus. And yet has there ever been such a revelation of the Holy love of God as the cross? God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son! Hallelujah!
It goes further. Whom did God choose to suffer for our sins, to be our substitute to receive His Holy wrath? The short answer is Jesus, His Son. But who is Jesus? He is part of the Trinity, three images of the same God.
In other words, He sacrificed and punished Himself!
Well presented, sir. I don’t mean the brevity of that comment to minimize the message, I just don’t know what else to say.
>>> God vindicated by the Gospel
That’s a relief. I was worried the Gospels would have an anti-religious message.
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
ACTS 4:12
Notice the paradox? How can God on the one hand, forgive sin and iniquity, and transgression; and on the other hand “By no means clear the guilty”? How can God be Love and Holy at the same time? As Psalm 85 proclaims, how can Mercy and truth meet together ? This is the problem that the gospel has addressed.
Actually, I dont believe there is a paradox there. G-d always has forgiven those who love Him, pray for forgiveness, repent and seek to do his commands. He does not forgive those who hate him and maintain their evil ways.( He clears those who repent, but does not clear those who do not repent (from Yoma 86a, targumim)). So the plain meaning of the text does not present a problem that needs to be fixed.
The gospel attempts to fix a non-problem. The gospel is essentially saying that G-d let the people suffer under a flawed system, for 1500 years to prove a point. That unless you are G-d in the flesh you cant do it. What is the point of G-d doing His own law perfectly? And no, his humanity couldnt sin. A personage that is 100% God and 100% man, can not sin. Mans nature would be fully immersed in G-ds nature and could could never sin. The set-up of man to fail at Sinai would therefore be duplicitous and directly contradicts Deuteronomy 30 and whole of Tanakh. The law is forever.
In order to save us from himself.
"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] " declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
LOL
Praise God-thank you for the encouragement-
Jesus, the sacrafice God offered of and to Himself- “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
The idea that the Torah was an elementary, preparatory system to be replaced with something greater at some future date is a chr*stian assumption. It is not self-evidently true. As a matter of fact, the notion that the "new testament" is divinely-inspired scripture with the authority to authoritatively interpret the Hebrew Bible is a chr*stian assumption as well. It is no more self-evidently true than the notion that the "book of mormon" has the authority to explain the Bible.
Appeals to the Bible to prove that the Bible is the word of G-d are a logical fallacy. Only G-d can be taken on His own authority. Protestants accept the Bible because the Bible tells them to. Liturgical chr*stians accept the Bible because their churches tell them to. Only Orthodox Jews (and Noachides) accept the Bible because G-d Himself told them to. In other words, please do not waste your and my valuable time "proving" anything by quoting the "new testament." Before it can be accepted the "new testament" must be proven, and you cannot prove it by quoting its claims about itself.
The notion that the Hebrew Bible teaches that blood atonement is necessary for sin is a chr*stian fallacy. For one, only Israel is commanded to bring offerings. The entire non-Jewish population, while it is permitted to bring the qorban `olah (the whole burnt offering), is not required to bring them. Yet non-Jews have been able to be forgiven of their sins throughout all of pre-chr*stian history. And I realize you will say, "yes, because J*sus was going to die for them," but this is your claim. Your claim is useless without proof.
There are many different kinds of offerings. Some are vegetable offerings. Some are drink offerings. Some are meal offerings (what do you say when Catholics claim these "prefigure" their consecrated host?).
There are various kinds of sacrifices for sin. One is the chatt'at which is conventionally translated "sin offering." Some are fixed, to be brought on certain occasions. Others are to be brought for specific sins. However, in order to qualify for a chatta't, a sin must be inadvertant. There is no chatta't for an intentional sin.
The reduction of the entire complex of laws concerning the `Avodat HaShem to a prefiguring of J*sus dying on the cross is merely a chr*stian claim that can only be believed if it is already believed. Plus it's terribly simple-minded.
And finally, until the past few hundred years chr*stianity did not teach that J*sus died in the sinner's place. This is Protestant doctrine, unknown to the ancient forms of chr*stianity. Roman Catholicism doesn't believe in vicarious punishment but rather in vicarious merit. J*sus allegedly vicariously merited salvation and grace because fallen man cannot, and this salvation and these graces allegedly are dispensed through the church and its ceremonial.
And the ancient Eastern and Oriental churches don't even believe in this. They claim that this notion of vicariousness is the invention of a medieval theologian named Anselm and that J*sus' death was not a vicarious punishment or a vicarious merit but a ransom paid to the devil so that man could be set free. As a matter of fact, the ancient Eastern churches don't even believe in original sin.
Finally, Divine Revelation isn't progressive. If it were, there would be no way to tell when the new "revelations" would stop coming. Revelation is regressive. Instead of building up from a preparatory Torah to a "final glorious" revelation that comes later, the Ultimate Revelation comes first and all revelations after that are progressively lower, not higher. The Jewish religion comes from the Torah, not the Prophets. The Torah has more authority than all prophets put together. To be a legitimate Prophet one must acknowledge the supremacy of the Torah; any "prophet" who does not and claims to have a greater revelation is to be put to death.
G-d wrote the Torah. It was not written by Moses or by any man, not even under Divine Inspiration. It is entirely the work of G-d. G-d dictated it to Moses letter-for-letter and Moses wrote it down. The later books of the Biblical canon are of lesser authority. The Prophets were not written by G-d Himself but by prophets under the spirit of Nevi'ah (prophecy), which is lower than Torah. And the Ketuvim (Hagiographa) are a step lower still, being written under Ruach HaQodesh. These later books do not build upon a preparatory foundation and lead to something else but are merely prophecies of the future--not of new, superior religions, but merely future events. That is why the Men of the Great Assembly canonized them. Only the Torah was never canonized by a human authority. The Na"KH was canonized by the Men of the Great Assembly. The "new testament" was canonized by the ancient church. If you accept one of these you must logically accept the authority of the body that canonized them. Because only the Torah was actually written by G-d and nothing can ever be higher.
As I said, ordinarily I'd just shake my head and move on, but 1)I hate to see people trapped in a "chr*stianity" that didn't exist until a few hundred years ago while the "real" chr*stians laugh at them; 2)I used to believe as you do; and 3)whether you realize it or not tonight and tomorrow is Tish`ah Be'Av, the day that marks the destruction of both Temples and it was very insulting and insensitive for you to post such stuff on this occasion.
If you want to see where in the Torah J*sus is probably alluded to, my advice is to look at Deuteronomy 13. I'd say that passage describes him pretty well.
Briefly my friend, - * I didn’t cite the New Testament to make my point, I cited the prophet Jeremiah!
* I realise that Tish Ba Av is approaching(the twentieth?) -I meant no offense- please
* Jesus is not in Deuteronomy 13- he is in Deuteronomy 18 The Prophet like unto Moshe Rabbinu
I appreciate your friendship and I have been enriched by our dialogue I hope it continues- Pastor Bill
Thanks ZC ... well-said again for the umpteenth time...magritte
But the only reason you believe Jeremiah was prophesying J*sus is because the "new testament" says this and you assume the truth of the "new testament" with no external proof or testimony.
* I realise that Tish Ba Av is approaching(the twentieth?) -I meant no offense- please
It's the ninth. Thank you for understanding my objection.
* Jesus is not in Deuteronomy 13- he is in Deuteronomy 18 The Prophet like unto Moshe Rabbinu
Again, the reason you believe this is that this is what the "new testament" teaches and you assume its authority to state authoritatively that J*sus was the fulfillment of the prophecies.
Deuteronomy 18 contains the mitzvah to listen to a prophet. It refers to any prophet, beginning with Mosheh's successor Yehoshu`a. However, five chapters earlier it was declared that any "prophet" who tries to start a new religion or replace the Torah with anything is to be put to death. Internally, Deuteronomy doesn't authorize J*sus in any way. You believe it does because the "new testament" tells you to. And the only reason you believe the "new testament" belongs in the bible is that that's what you've believed all your life.
I recognize that I'm engaging in a fruitless battle here (though at one time I believed people could be persuaded to understand). But the thing is that no matter what I say, your Protestant Bible will always have a "new testament," and that's all that matters to you. How it got there isn't important. All you know is it's between those two covers, and that's all that matters. It's a good thing no one added a quran or a book of mormon to it because if you'd grown up with that you'd assume that as well!
I'm sorry if all that sounded snarky. One reason I react this way to this "reasoning in a circle" is that I've been there myself.
I appreciate your friendship and I have been enriched by our dialogue I hope it continues- Pastor Bill
I appreciate the sincerity of your intentions and your non-combative tone. Thank you.
I should end this post here but I neglected to make one important point in my last post to you. I am well aware of the Protestant belief that G-d created an absolutely perfect and holy world, that He couldn't have created a world of any other kind without being implicated in evil, that the only reason there is sin and evil in the world is because it was mucked up by an evil supernatural enemy, and that G-d must either now damn everyone or else come up with a loophole such as Protestants believe in.
The problem is that the physical world was not created as perfect and sinless as G-d because by definition nothing ever can be. He didn't reproduce Himself when He created. By creating a physical universe, by giving man free will, and by giving him a moral code he was free to obey or disobey G-d created a world that had the possibility of evil built into it from the very beginning. In fact, Genesis alludes to the fact that G-d Himself created the Evil Inclination (just as He did the Good Inclination) and implanted it in 'Adam. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a fallen, rebellious angel who is at war with G-d. Angels by definition are not free moral beings. They do their job. One of Sama'el's jobs is to be HaSatan. And as we all know from personal experience, he does it very well.
This is not to mean that the sin in Eden didn't affect both Adam and Eve and the entire universe in a huge way. We know nothing of the world that existed before the sin. But this sin did not introduce imperfection into the world. Imperfection was built in. G-d in no way has to damn everyone, found chr*stianity, or else (G-d forbid) "tumble from His Throne of Holiness" as so many Evangelical Protestants insist.
The ground and the moon sinned before Adam and Eve did. Do you think they're going to hell?
Again, I thank you for your understanding attitude and apologize for any cruelty or snarkiness in my own.
May G-d lead us, and the world, into ever greater understanding.
Okay, I thought you might quote Jeremiah....:o) The problem with that passage is that A) It hasnt happened yet
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
34 goes with the preceding verses...and 34 hasnt happened yet, so 33 hasnt happened yet.
and B)Even with the new covenant, G-d doesnt say the Law is done away with. The law is still valid even afterwards! If a person takes in total the messianic scriptures in the Tanakh, certain things become readily apparent. A) The law is forever, B) The Temple will be rebuilt C) Sacrifices are returning. All three of which are problematic for the church.
The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. (Psalm 111:7-8)
And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. (Ezekiel 11:19-20)
My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. (Ezekiel 37:24)
B) Ezekiel 43/44
44:15 " 'But the priests, who are Levites and descendants of Zadok and who faithfully carried out the duties of my sanctuary when the Israelites went astray from me, are to come near to minister before me; they are to stand before me to offer sacrifices of fat and blood, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 They alone are to enter my sanctuary; they alone are to come near my table to minister before me and perform my service.
44: They will eat the grain offerings, the sin offerings and the guilt offerings; and everything in Israel devoted [a] to the LORD will belong to them.
This is in the messianic era.
16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it [c] will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.' 17 For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18 nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.' "
Messianic era sacrifices
Zech 14: 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them.
The Gentiles must be cicumcisized to enter the 3rd Temple. Of the heart and the flesh! further proof the Law is in tact. This is a problem for Pauline doctrine.
Ezek 44: 9Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Ezek 44: 23And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. 24And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
Again, Pauline doctrine directly contradicts the word of G-d here.
So, Christian doctrine would have to grapple with the above and could only come to the conclusion that G-ds "progressive revelation goes from Law to Grace to Law.....or see that HaShem G-d has been consistent all along...the Law is forever...in the messianic era sacrfices return... and even the Gentiles will come to Jerusalem to learn the Law.
And many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths," for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3)
Have an easy fast by the way...
I have to concur with ZC here....Actually, Jesus would apply to both 13 and 18..
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." 21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
There are many NT things that would apply here. But one I have yet to get an answer from anyone is this:
13For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15He who has ears, let him hear.
10The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
So Jesus says John the baptist is Elijah, but John says he is not Elijah.
John 1:21They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."
Mark 15:35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said, "Listen, he's calling Elijah."
Why would he be calling Elijah if he was John the Baptist?
Luke 9:33 As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, "Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." (He did not know what he was saying.)
Why didnt they say, hey, there is Moses and John the baptist?
I think it is important that you continue to clarify the essential difference between Judaism and Christianity. Western Christians, especially the Evangelicals tend to think of themselves as real close to the Jews, some even calling themselves "Zionists". If they only realized that what they preach and teach is utterly disassociated with Judaism they would cease their charade.
Christians feel that somehow they know Judaism because their Bible is mostly the Jewish Bible, that Paul was a "Jewish" scholar, and so on. I used to compare Christianity to Judaism as Latter day Saints to Christianity, and that is not even a shadow of the distortion Christianity created out of Judaism.
Thanks for the ping.
Hopefully by becoming Noachides.
Thank you Zinc- I learn so much from interchange with you guys-
* I know Tish ba av is the 9th of Av, i was asking if it is on the 20th of July this year-
*Isaiah told us that “if we make His(Messiah’s)life a sacrifice for the sin- He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands, and by his knowledge shall He justify the many...Is 53”
*True , offerings were only made by Israel, (unless you count Abel) that is because they are the prisetly nation
*did they not offer 70 Bulls for the nations?
* could the mercy seat be approached without blood?
* How can there be mercy without blood offerings?
* Is Rabbinism what Jeremiah prophesied of when He declared “My people have committed two evils, they hae forsaken ME the fountain of living water and have hewn out cisterns that cannot hold water”
* Doesn’t Daniel Nine teach that the Messiah had to come a generation before the temple was destroyed?
Isaiah told us that “if we make His(Messiah’s)life a sacrifice for the sin- He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands, and by his knowledge shall He justify the many...Is 53”
Did you notice what you just did? You inserted the word "messiah" where it doesn't exist. You assume from the get-go that Isaiah 53 is speaking about the messiah because the "new testament" tells you this. This is, in fact, a perfect illustration of your approach to the entire TaNa"KH. You do not believe in chr*stianity because of Isaiah 53. You believe in it because your bible has a "new testament" in it and you automatically read every passage of the Hebrew Bible with its claims in mind.
*True , offerings were only made by Israel, (unless you count Abel) that is because they are the prisetly nation *did they not offer 70 Bulls for the nations?
*could the mercy seat be approached without blood?
*How can there be mercy without blood offerings?
Again, you are simply, for the most part, repeating what you read and accept in the Epistle to the Hebrews. If you did not already accept the book of Hebrews on its own authority these things would not be so "obvious."
When you refer to the mercy seat you are not dealing with guilt offerings or sin offerings at all, but the Yom Kippur ritual. Try for a moment to approach Yom Kippur without the "new testament" and the book of Hebrews in the back of your mind. Now consider this: the past two thousand years is not the only time the Israelites were without a Temple and without sacrifices. The First Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians and for seventy years there were no sacrifices, no mercy seat, and no Temple. How did the Israelites obtain forgiveness of their sins? They had to repent! Daniel (whom you think of as a proto-chr*stian) in fact davnened three times a day just as Jews do today.
Now consider this: in the book of Deuteronomy (Parashat Ki-Tavo', Deut. 26:1-29:8) there is a very long, terrifying section in which Moses warns the people of being dispersed far from their land among the nations of the earth. Now guess what this means? No Temple! No offerings! Now look at why this situation comes about. Is it because the Israelites "rejected the messiah?" Nonsense! The Book of Deuteronomy is very clear on this. Exile (which by definition means loss of the Temple and its sacrifices) is a punishment for forsaking the Torah. It's right there in black-and-white, my friend. If Israel deviates from the Torah ("to the right hand or to the left") they risk being deported from their homeland to the ends of the earth with no Temple and no offerings. But what does Moses tell them at the end of this frightening section? If they REPENT and RETURN to HaShem (which by definition means the Torah) then they will be restored, which by definition means the Temple will be rebuilt and the sacrificial rituals resumed.
How in the world any chr*stian, having read this, can with a straight face claim that the Torah was temporary, that the Temple was destroyed because it wasn't needed any more, and that exile is a punishment for clinging to the Torah rather than forsaking it for the new "religion" of "the messiah" is absolutely beyond me.
Oh wait . . . it's because the "new testament" says so, and the "new testament" is the "word of G-d" or else it would never have ended up in the Thomas Nelson Protestant bible and good chr*stians would have never grown up believing it. [/sarcasm (with apologies)]
*Is Rabbinism what Jeremiah prophesied of when He declared “My people have committed two evils, they hae forsaken ME the fountain of living water and have hewn out cisterns that cannot hold water”
Now Pastor Bill . . . you know better than that. The sin that led to the destruction of the First Temple and which Jeremiah here condemns is idol worship. That chr*stians can read this and place Torah observance (after it is "done away with," G-d forbid) on a par with idol worship is another one of the mysteries of life.
After the First Churban idol worship (and its counterpart and corrective, prophecy) were removed from Israel. Israel hasn't worshiped idols since then--except for the liberalism of the last three hundred years or so.
*Doesn’t Daniel Nine teach that the Messiah had to come a generation before the temple was destroyed?
Why do you think Daniel 9 teaches that? (That's a rhetorical question.)
Chr*stians don't understand anything about the messiah, so they don't understand that he can come in any generation. In each generation there is someone who is qualified to me mashiach should HaShem decide it's time. As a matter of fact, mashiach (short for hamelekh hamashiach) simply means "the anointed king" and refers to the King of Israel. Sha'ul HaMelekh was hamelekh hamashiach. David HaMelekh was hamelekh hamashiach. Shelomoh HaMelekh was in fact the very first Mashiach Ben David, since that term merely means a king of Israel descended from David. In fact, the reigning Davidic king in the days when Isaiah and Jeremiah were prophesying were already HaMelekh HaMashiach Ben David.
But I understand that you are not referring to any anointed king, but an eschatological anointed king. Yes, there is a concept of an anointed king in the "end of days," and this is what Jews and chr*stians mean when they speak of "the messiah." But the chr*stian understanding of who this figure is and what he does is distorted by the Hellenistic, pagan concepts of chr*stianity and the "new testament." The eschatological messiah. This figure will complete the Jewish Mission by conquering the world and subjugating all mankind to the One True G-d. Since the Temple has been destroyed and the Jews scattered, he must also regather them, rebuild the Temple, and restore the Torah in its fullness. He doesn't do away with the Torah (you don't "fulfill" something by doing away with it!). He will fulfill the Torah literally. All Torah laws, not just the few that can be observed today, will be restored in all their fullness. There will be a Sanhedrion. There will be a Temple service. There will be a red heifer. The ceremony of the water drawing will be observed during Sukkot. This is what is meant by fulfilling the Torah! How in the world can any person claim that "fulfilling" the Torah means abolishing it because it has "served its prophetic and pedagogical purpose?"
Does the Book of Daniel say that this messiah must come within a certain period of time? First of all, though Daniel was a Prophet, the Book of Daniel was not written under the Spirit of Prophecy but under Ruach HaQodesh ("the holy spirit") which is one step below prophecy. Secondly, the vast majority of all prophecies are contingent. They are warnings that can be averted or promises that can be temporarily withheld because of sin. Jonah told the Ninevites that their city would be destroyed. It wasn't because they repented. Who knows how many prophesied disasters have been diverted or how many promises were withheld by G-d because the people showed that they were not yet ready?
Now Pastor Bill, please give me your undivided attention for what I am about to say.
In my past two posts I raised very important, essential issues which you have ignored in order to raise the usual chr*stian talking points about Isaiah and Daniel. Why have you done this? I ask you in all sincerity to consider the following points:
Read Deuteronomy 13.
The Torah was written by G-d in its entirety. It is not temporary, it is not preparatory. It is the highest and ultimate revelation (Divine Revelation is regressive, not progressive).
No legitimate prophet who has ever lived has ever prophesied of a day when the Torah will be "obsolete" or replaced with something else because it has fulfilled its allegedly prophetic and pedagogical purpose.
G-d does not have to either damn everyone in existence or else damn Himself in their place in order not to "topple from His Throne of Holiness because He created a world in which sin is possible. He did not create a world as perfect and holy as Himself (by definition nothing can be). The first sin was committed not by a "fallen" man but by the "perfect" first man. G-d Himself created the evil inclination and placed it within man, and created HaSatan and gave him his job. G-d and G-d alone is in total and complete control of both the forces of good and the forces of evil. There is no "evil gxd" from whom the world has to be purchased or redeemed or ransomed.
Chr*stianity never taught that J*sus fulfilled a vicarious function until Anselm in the Middle Ages came up with the idea that he vicariously "merited" mankind's salvation by dying on the cross--these merits to be accessed through church ritual and ceremonial. And no chr*stian believed that J*sus was vicariously damned in place of the individual sinner until the Protestant Reformation at the very earliest. To this day Eastern and Oriental chr*stians don't even believe in "original sin."
Protestantism is not identical to the chr*stianity that existed before Constantine. Chr*stians were already (for example) praying to Mary in Egypt in the third century for protection from persecution. Constantine did not rule the world and there have always been chr*stian churches that were never under the Roman Empire at any time (for example, the Indian chr*stians who were allegedly converted by the Apostle Thomas). These chr*stians, though not Roman Catholics, nevertheless have confessions, prayers to saints, "the mass," priests, sacraments, rituals, etc., and teach that salvation is a lifelong process of obedience to chr*stian ritual that has merely replaced Jewish ritual (and they don't believe that J*sus died in anyone's place, either). When the Portuguese Catholics arrived in southwestern India in 1498 they didn't find Southern Baptists or Pentecostals. They found a 1446-year old ritualized chr*stianity much like theirs that had never been under Constantine or under Rome. Protestantism is based on nothing but myths and moonbeams. If you want to be a "real chr*stian," perhaps you should submit yourself for conversion to the Coptic, Armenian, Indian, or Syrian church. But since they teach that you can never know you are saved, that all J*sus did was replace one ritual with another, and that our entire life is spent walking a tightrope over hell, I am afraid you will be greatly disappointed.
Before you invoke Isaiah or "kiss the son" or "unto us a child is born" or "by his stripes we are healed," please consider and deal with these points first!
You are a very polite and kind person to debate with. Thank you.
“”Chr*stianity never taught that J*sus fulfilled a vicarious function until Anselm in the Middle Ages came up with the idea that he vicariously “merited” mankind’s salvation by dying on the cross-””
Not true ZC, Blessed Anselm DIFINED this over time .
The Nicean Creed and various church Fathers spoke about this.
Example from Saint Gregory Nazianzen, Second Oration on Easter
“Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but in my judgment well worth enquiring into. To Whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was It shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause? If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone altogether. But if to the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed; and next, On what principle did the Blood of His Only begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being offered by his Father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in the place of the human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things? So much we have said of Christ; the greater part of what we might say shall be reverenced with silence. But that brazen serpent Numbers 21:9 was hung up as a remedy for the biting serpents, not as a type of Him that suffered for us, but as a contrast; and it saved those that looked upon it, not because they believed it to live, but because it was killed, and killed with it the powers that were subject to it, being destroyed as it deserved. And what is the fitting epitaph for it from us? “O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?” You are overthrown by the Cross; you are slain by Him who is the Giver of life; you are without breath, dead, without motion, even though you keep the form of a serpent lifted up on high on a pole.”-Saint Gregory Nazianzen 383 ad
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310245.htm
From Saint Augustine...
Christ has no sin in the sense of deserving death, but he bore for our sakes sin in the sense of death as brought on human nature of human sin. This is what hung on the tree; this is what was cursed by Moses [Deut 21:23 ]. Thus was death condemned that its reign might cease and cursed that it might be destroyed. By Christ’s taking our sin in this sense, in condemnation is our deliverance, while to remain in subjection to sin is to be condemned. [Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, XIV.3, NPNF, IV, p. 208]
Irenaues,Athanasis and others had similar things to say on this ,so it is NOT correct to say the Church never taught on this
Isaiah told us that “if we make His(Messiah’s)life a sacrifice for the sin- He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands, and by his knowledge shall He justify the many...Is 53
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
First point. The Hebrew renderings are completely different throughout the 4th servant song. But even using the NIV or KJV, significant errors can be pointed out.
He is called a guilt offering (not in the Hebrew). A guilt offering is for A) Unitentional sin and B) very few intentional sins, cheating your neighbor, not returning lost items, bearing false witness and a couple of others. So, if this pertains to Jesus, that means he covers very few intentional and unintentional sins.
Guilt offerings are primarily Rams, or Female lamb (ewe) or goat. Jesus was not any of those.
"He shall see his seed" this Hebrew word here never refers to spiritual children, only physical biological children or decendants. Jesus had no children.
"His days shall be prolonged"....Jesus died young. And it makes no sense for G-d to promise G-d prolonged days.
"And by his knowlege"....knowlege? Shouldnt that read, by his blood we are justified?
I would ask you to please review these mere 6 pages of exegesis.
“”G-d Himself created the evil inclination and placed it within man, and created HaSatan and gave him his job””.
You need to call this a free will that God gave to man,not say God created the evil or God is not perfection and would have evil in Him. Evil is an imperfection,ZC
From Saint Thomas Aquinas.....
That God is Universal Perfection
AS all perfection and nobility is in a thing inasmuch as the thing is, so every defect is in a thing inasmuch as the thing in some manner is not. As then God has being in its totality, so not-being is totally removed from Him, because the measure in which a thing has being is the measure of its removal from not-being. Therefore all defect is absent from God: He is therefore universal perfection.
2. Everything imperfect must proceed from something perfect: therefore the First Being must be most perfect.
3. Everything is perfect inasmuch as it is in actuality; imperfect, inasmuch as it is in potentiality, with privation of actuality. That then which is nowise in potentiality, but is pure actuality, must be most perfect; and such is God.*
4. Nothing acts except inasmuch as it is in actuality: action therefore follows the measure of actuality in the agent. It is impossible therefore for any effect that is brought into being by action to be of a nobler actuality than is the actuality of the agent. It is possible though for the actuality of the effect to be less perfect than the actuality of the acting cause, inasmuch as action may be weakened on the part of the object to which it is terminated, or upon which it is spent. Now in the category of efficient causation everything is reducible ultimately to one cause, which is God, of whom are all things. Everything therefore that actually is in any other thing must be found in God much more eminently than in the thing itself; God then is most perfect.
Hence the answer given to Moses by the Lord, when he sought to see the divine face or glory: I will show thee all good (Exod. xxxiii, 19).
Dear Freind,
The following is how the early Church understood Scripture through typology of Scripture and Jesus fulfilling messianic prophecies.
The NT type is always superior to the OT antitype because it is revealed in Christ
MESSIANIC PROPHECIES FULFILLED BY JESUS CHRIST
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html
General Prophecies Concerning the Coming of Jesus
Gen. 49:10; Mic. 5:2 - a kingdom and ruler of Israel shall come from Judah - Mattt. 1:1-2, Luke 3:23,33 - Jesus is from the line of Judah.
Deut. 18:18 - He will be raised up as a prophet - Matt. 21:11, Luke 7:16; John 6:14; 7:40 - Jesus is identified as this prophet.
Psalm 2:6 - He will be a King - Matt. 21:5; John 18:36-37 - Jesus is this King.
Psalm 2:7 - you are my Son, today I have begotten you - Matt. 3:17; Acts 13:33 - God the Father said this about Jesus the Son.
Psalm 69:4; Isaiah 49:7 - He will be hated without a cause - John 15:25 - Jesus was hated without a cause.
Psalm 69:9 - zeal for thy house has consumed me - John 2:16-17 - zeal consumed Jesus as He drove out the traders.
Psalm 78:2 - He will speak in parables - Matt. 13:34-35 - Jesus spoke in parables.
Psalm 110:1; Jer. 23:6 - He will be called Lord - Matt. 22:43-45; Luke 2:11; Heb. 1:10 - Jesus is called Lord by the Lord.
Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 8:14; 28:16 - He will be the stone rejected by the builders - Acts 4:10-11; Rom. 9:32-33; 1 Peter 2:7-8 - Jesus is the stone rejected by the builders.
Psalm 118:26; Hag.2:7-9; Mal. 3:1 - He will come to the Temple - Matt. 21:12; John 2:13-17 - Jesus so came to the Temple.
Psalm 132:11; Jer. 23:5 - He, the king, shall come from the House of David - Matt. 1:1; Luke 3:23,31 - Jesus is the son of David.
Isaiah 6:9-10 - they hear but do not understand and see but do not perceive - Matt. 13:14-15; John 12:38-41 - this is why Jesus used parables.
Isaiah 7:14 - He will be born of a young virgin woman - Matt. 1:18, 24-25; Luke 1:26-35 - Jesus was born of the young virgin Mary.
Isaiah 9:1 - His ministry will make Galilee glorious - Matt 4:12-17 - Jesus begins His ministry in Galilee.
Isaiah 9:6 - a woman shall bear a son called Emmanuel (”God is with us”) - Luke 1:35 - Jesus is this one, the Son of God.
Isaiah 11:2 - the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him - Matt. 3:16-17 - the Spirit of God descended upon Jesus like a dove.
Isaiah 32:3-4; 35:5-6- His ministry will include miracles curing the blind, deaf, lame and dumb - Matt. 9:32-35 - Jesus so cured the blind, deaf, lame and dumb.
Isaiah 33:22 - He will be a judge - John 5:30 - Jesus is the judge who judges justly.
Isaiah 40:3; Mal. 3:1 - He will be preceded by a messenger - Mat. 3:1-3; 11:10; Luke 1:17; John 1:23 - Jesus was so preceded (by Saint John the Baptist).
Isaiah 53:3 - He will be rejected by His people - John 1:11; 7:5 - Jesus was rejected by His own people.
Isaiah 61:1-2 - the Spirit of the Lord is upon Him - Luke 4:21 - Jesus says that He has fulfilled this prophecy.
Zech. 9:9 - He will triumphantly enter Jerusalem on an ass - Matt. 21:5; Luke 19:35-38; John 12:14-17 - Jesus so entered Jerusalem.
Mic. 5:2 - Israel’s ruler shall come from Bethlehem - Matt. 2:1,4-8; Luke 2:4-7 - Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus in His Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension
Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.
Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.
Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.
Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.
Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus’ hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.
Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus’ garments among them.
Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus’ garments.
Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 - He will be raised to life on the third day - Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 - Jesus was raised to life on the third day.
Psalm 34:20 - He will not have broken bones - John 19:33,36 - none of Jesus’ bones were broken.
Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - He will be betrayed by a friend - Matt. 10:4; 26:20-25; Mark 14:18-21; John 13:18 - Jesus was betrayed by a friend.
Psalm 68:18 - He will ascend into heaven - Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:9 - Jesus ascended into heaven.
Psalm 68:20 - He will escape the powers of death - Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 - Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.
Psalm 69:21 - they will give Him vinegar to drink - Matt. 27:34,48; Mark 15:23,36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29 - they gave Jesus vinegar to drink.
Psalm 110:1 - He will sit at the right hand of God - Heb. 1:3; Acts 2:34-35 - Jesus sits at the right hand of God.
Isaiah 50:6 - He will be spat upon - Matt. 26:67; Mark 15:19 - Jesus was spat upon.
Isaiah 50:6; Mic. 5:1 - the ruler of Israel’s cheek will be struck - Matt. 26:67; Luke 22:63; John 18:22 - Jesus was so struck and beaten.
Isaiah 53:5; Zech. 13:6 - He was wounded, bruised and scourged for us - Matt. 27:26; Mark 15:15; John 19:1 - Jesus was wounded, bruised and scourged for us.
Isaiah 53:7 - He will remain silent before His accusers - Matt. 27:12,14; Mark 14:61;15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9 - Jesus remained silent before His accusers.
Isaiah 53:8-10; Dan. 9:26 - the anointed one shall be cut off and die - Luke 23:46; 24:7; John 19:30 - Jesus the Messiah died.
Isaiah 53:9 - He will be buried in a rich man’s tomb - Matt. 27:57-60; Mark 15:42-46; Luke 23:50-53; John 19:38-42 - Jesus was buried in a rich man’s tomb (the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea).
Isaiah 53:12 - He will make intercession for the transgressors - Luke 23:34,43 - Jesus made intercession for the transgressors on the cross.
Amos 8:9 - God will darken the earth at noon - Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44-45 - there was darkness at noon at Jesus’ crucifixion and death.
Jonah 1:17 - three nights and days in the belly of the whale foreshadows Jesus’ death and rising on the third day.
Mic. 1:8 - He will lament and wail, and will go stripped and naked - John 19:23-24 - Jesus lamented and was stripped and naked.
Zech. 11:12-13 - He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - Matt. 26:15 - Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
Zech. 11:13 - the pieces of silver are cast into God’s house - Matt. 27:5 - Judas threw the pieces of silver into the Temple.
Zech. 12:10 - His side will be pierced - John 19:34, 37 - Jesus’ side was pierced.
Zech. 13:7 - He will be forsaken by His disciples who will scatter - Matt. 26:31, Mark. 14:50 - Jesus’ disciples forsook Him and scattered.
Beautiful, thank you-
“Now Pastor Bill, please give me your undivided attention for what I am about to say.
In my past two posts I raised very important, essential issues which you have ignored in order to raise the usual chr*stian talking points about Isaiah and Daniel. Why have you done this? I ask you in all sincerity to consider the following points:”
I am not avoiding anything, I am just needing time to ponder before I answer-
Superb post.
SFA, most perfect being can only make most perfect things, by definiton. Nothing imperfect can come out of perfectio or else it's not perfection.
Actually they do, ZC, they just don't believe the Augustinian interpretation of Rom 5:12 that we somehow "inherit" the sin of Adam. Eastern Churches hold that Adam's sin is Adam's sin, and his and Eve's sin ontologically changed the first humans into mortal souls. We are mortal because mortal parents have mrotla children...(soemthing like dogs cna only have dogs, and frogs can only have frogs)
We are fallen because our parents are fallen. Another way to look at our fallen nature is to compare us to a drug-addicted newborn delivered by a drug-addicted mother. You are born addicted because of her sin, you have the propensity for it, but at birth your mother's sin is not your sin. You bear no guilt except for your own sins.
Why is it that Jesus fullfilled "messianic prophecies" that could be done by anyone but none of the prophecies that could only be done by Mashiach ben David?
Like the ingathering of the exiles, world peace, universal knowlege of G-d, restoring the throne of David, offering sacrifices permanently, Gentiles streaming to Jerusalem to learn the law and G-ds ways. If he would have done those things, then he would have been "The Messiah", of course minus the god-man thing, virgin birth thing, the ceremonial eating his flesh and drinking his blood thing, the trinity thing etc....
True,but perfection is a first cause coming from God. Adam was from God and perfect with a free will,thus sin came from Adam when he freely CHOSE to sin ,not from God. God creates perfect and free angels as well,they can choose to have pride like lucifer,thus the imperfection is not from God who's first cause is perfection
First of all dear friend,ANYONE can say the Torah is fabricated as well.,you accept it being from God based on FAITH . We do the same regarding the Bible.We base our beliefs on faith through the witness of Christian history as well
Secondly, typologies of Jesus also pertain to Abraham,Adam, Moses etc... they are foreshadowing of something greater-Incarnate God -Jesus
Here is an example of Jesus Moses Typology
THE TYPOLOGY OF MOSES AND JESUS
| MOSES | JESUS |
| Pharaoh tried to kill him as a baby (Ex 1:22). |
King Herod tried to kill baby Jesus (Mt 2:16). |
| He was hidden from the Pharaoh (Ex 2:2). |
An angel said to hide the Jesus from the King Herod (Mt 2:13). |
| Moses was sent into Egypt to preserve his life (Ex 2:3-4). | Jesus was taken into Egypt to preserve His life (Mt 2:13-15). |
| Moses was saved by women: his mother (Ex 2:3), Miriam (Ex 2:4), and Pharaoh's daughter (Ex 2:5-10). | Jesus was saved and helped by His mother, Mary (Mt 2:14). |
| Pharaoh's daughter adopted Moses and named him (Ex 2:10). | Joseph adopted Jesus and named him (Mt 1:25). |
| MMoses became a prince of Egypt (Ex 2:10). |
Jesus is the Prince of Peace (Is 9:5; Mt 28:18; Lk 2:14). |
| There was a long period of silence from his childhood to his adulthood. | There was a long period of silence from Jesus' childhood to His adulthood. |
| Moses had a secret identity = a prince who was a Hebrew slave. | Messianic secret = Jesus is the Son of God. |
| HHe tried to save a Hebrew kinsman (Ex 2:11-12). |
Jesus came to save His Hebrew kinsman first (Mk 7:26-28). |
| MMoses went from being a prince to a pauper (Ex 2:15-19). | Jesus went from being God to being man (Jn 1:1-3; Mk 6:3). |
| He saved women at a well (Ex 2:15-19). | He saved a woman at a well (Jn chapter 4). |
| He became a shepherd (Ex 3:1). | Jesus is the Good Shepherd (Jn 10:11). |
| Moses' mission was to redeem Israel from slavery (Ex 3:7-10). | Jesus' mission is to redeem mankind from slavery to sin (Heb 1:1-4). |
| Moses was loved and supported in his ministry by his sister Miriam [Hebrew = Miryam] (Ex15:20-21). | Jesus was loved and supported in his ministry by His mother Mary [Hebrew = Miryam] and was assisted in his ministry by women (Lk 8:3). |
| He was often rejected by his own people. | Jesus was often rejected by His own people. |
| Moses gave God's law on Mt. Sinai (Ex 20:1-31:18; 34:1-35). | Jesus gave the new law from the Mt. of Beatitudes (Mt chapter 5). |
| Moses spent 40 days fasting on the mountain (Ex 24:18; 34:28). | Jesus spent 40 days fasting in the desert wilderness (Mt 4:2). |
| Moses performed signs/ miracles (Ex 4:8-9, 17). | Jesus performed signs/miracles (Jn 20:30). |
| Moses offered his life for the salvation of his people after the sin of the Golden Calf (Ex 32:33-33). | Jesus offered His life for the salvation of the world (Is 53:12; Rom 5:12; 6:10; 2 Cor 5:15-21; Col 1:19-20; 2:14-15; 1 Jn 1:7; 2:2; etc). |
ping
FSA, dear brother, no sin can come from something perfect. If Adam was perfect he could not have sinned. A perfect being has a perfect will. But, if Adam were perfect, he would have been God, with a perfect will and unable to sin. If Adam was not created perfect than God created imperfection, a corrupt product. And corruption means sin. But the Bible doesn't say God created anything perfect, only exceedingly good/pleasing/acceptable (cf Gen 1:31). So, we have a logical problem here, no matter how you look at it.
SFA: First of all dear friend,ANYONE can say the Torah is fabricated as well.,you accept it being from God based on FAITH . We do the same regarding the Bible.We base our beliefs on faith through the witness of Christian history as well
Blasater is right that the "concordance" could be a fabrication, but SFA is right that the Torah could be just as well. Let's show some proof that's not based entirely on blind faith.
“”A perfect being has a perfect will.””
Agreed.
Perhaps I need to re phrase this using an Blessed Aquinas example...
That God knows Evil Things by Saint Thomas Aquinas
WHEN good is known, the opposite evil is known. But God knows all particular good things, to which evil things are opposed: therefore God knows evil things.
2. The ideas of contraries, as ideas in the mind, are not contrary to one another: otherwise they could not be together in the mind, or be known together: the idea therefore whereby evil is known is not inconsistent with good, but rather belongs to the idea of good (ratio qua cognoscitur malum ad rationem boni pertinet).* If then in God, on account of His absolute perfection, there are found all ideas of goodness (rationes bonitatis, as has been proved , It follows that there is in Him the idea (ratio) whereby evil is known.
3. Truth is the good of the understanding: for an understanding is called good inasmuch as it knows the truth. But truth is not only to the effect that good is good, but also that evil is evil: for as it is true that what is, is, so it is true that what is not, is not. The good of the understanding therefore consists even in the knowledge of evil. But since the divine understanding is perfect in goodness, there cannot be wanting to it any of the perfections of understanding; and therefore there is present to it the knowledge of things evil.
4. God knows the distinction of things . But in the notion of distinction there is negation: for those things are distinct, of which one is not another: hence the first things that are of themselves distinct, mutually involve the exclusion of one another, by reason of which fast negative propositions are immediately verified of them, e.g., ‘No quantity is a substance.’ God then knows negation. But privation is a sort of negation: He therefore knows privation, and consequently evil, which is nothing else than a privation of due perfection.
8. In us the knowledge of evil things is never blameworthy in mere point of knowledge, that is in the judgement that is passed about evil things, but accidentally, inasmuch as by the observation of evil things one is sometimes inclined to evil. But that cannot be in God; and therefore there is nothing to prevent His knowing evil.
With this agrees what is said, that Evil surpasseth not [God’s] wisdom (Wisd. vii 30) and, Hell and perdition are before the Lord (Prov. xv, 11) and, My offences are not hidden from thee (Ps. lxviii, 6); and, He knoweth the vanity of men, and seeing doth he not consider iniquity? (Job xi, 11.)
It is to be observed however that if God’s knowledge were so limited as that His knowledge of Himself did not involve His knowing other beings of finite and partial goodness, at that rate He would nowise know privation or evil: because to the good which is God Himself there is no privation opposed, since privation and its opposite are naturally about the same object; and so to that which is pure actuality no privation is opposed, and consequently no evil either. Hence on the supposition that God knows Himself alone, by knowing the excellences of His own being, He will not know evil.* But because in knowing Himself He knows beings in which privations naturally occur, He must know the opposite privations, and the evils opposite to particular goods.
It must be further observed that as God, without any argumentative process, knows other beings by knowing Himself, so there is no need of His knowledge being argumentative in coming to the knowledge of evil things through good things: for good is as it were the ground of the knowledge of evil, evil being nothing else than privation of good: hence what is evil is known through what is good as things are known through their definitions, not as conclusions through their premises.
From Aquinas....
A thing is perfect in so far as it is in actuality: therefore it will be imperfect inasmuch as it is failing in actuality. Evil therefore is either a privation, or includes a privation, or is nothing. But the subject of privation is potentiality; and that cannot be in God: therefore neither can evil.
This truth also Holy Scripture confirms, saying: God is light, and there is no darkness in Him, (I John i, 5) Far from God impiety, and iniquity from the Almighty (Job xxxiv, 10).
Here is just a sample of what I mean that these prophecies are either not messianic, about someone else, bad hebrew translation or some such thing.
Gen. 49:10; Mic. 5:2 - a kingdom and ruler of Israel shall come from Judah ......Jesus was not from the tribe of Judah. He had no biological father and tribal affilation is never from the mother...even when adopted. Even if Joseph was his father he still couldnt be messiah due to Matthews flawed genealogy going through a cursed king whos children were forbidden from the throne of David.
Deut. 18:18 - He will be raised up as a prophet.....This is Joshua not Jesus
Psalm 2:6 - He will be a King ...Jesus never sat on the throne of David.
Psalm 2:7 - you are my Son, today I have begotten you ...This is David not Jesus
Psalm 69:4; Isaiah 49:7 - He will be hated without a cause...This "person" is identified 4 verses back. He said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor."
Psalm 110:1...Abraham not Jesus. Jer23:6 Jesus was never called the "lord our righteousness"
Hag 2: Hasnt happened yet..it is talking about G-ds presence in the future temple.
Psalm 132:11;Solomon...not Jesus
Isaiah 6:9-10 - they hear but do not understand and see but do not perceive -.....parables have long been a teaching tool...not messianic.
Isaiah 9:6 - a woman shall bear a son called Emmanuel ....Jesus was not named Emmanuel. Many Hebrew named contain the name of G-d.
Isaiah 11: 22 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD ....G-d fears G-d? This is not about Jesus.
Isaiah 32:3-4; 35:5-6 Hasnt happened yet. These are messianic era events.
Psalm 22 All of Psalm 22 is either about David and his trials or in some cases Israel....it is not messianic.
Zech. 11:12-13 - He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver .....Zech 11 is not about betrayal
Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born -......This is a corruption of the Hebrew. It doesnt say "pierced" is says "like a Lion" they have surrounded hy hands and feet. This can easily be seen by reading related verses in Psalm 22......Zech 12:10 is about a future general who will be killed in battle, gog and magog, the beloved general will mourned like in the days of megiddo. Read the account of megiddo.
So, I could, if time permitted show how every single one of these does not pertain to Jesus. This is how the church "paints" Jesus into the scripture.
The real Mashiach ben David, when he comes will not have to prove a typology. He will be messiah based upon his ACCOMPLISHMENTS. There will be no do-overs, no second chances. As a matter of fact, no one can be crowned King Mashiach unless he has fulfilled the requirements...ALL OFF THEM. The "exhaustive and exclusive" requirements. Rebuild the temple...ingather the exiles...restore the lost tribes...universal knowlege of G-d...Gentiles learning the law in Jerusalem...Gentiles abondoning their false faiths....sacrifices restored continually...only cirmcumcized flesh going to the temple.
Those are the real requirements. Anyone who falls short...like Jesus...is a failed messiah. Period. WHEN those things are accomplished...THEN you will know the messiah.
Christians are risking their souls by putting their faith in a messiah who didnt complete his tasks...2000 years ago.
“”Jesus was not from the tribe of Judah. “”
From Christological Titles in the New Testament
http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Christological_Titles.htm
The Hebrews were a loose confederation of “tribes,” not a monarchy. God was considered their king. The first human “kings” were Saul, David, and Solomon. Thereafter, the “Kings of Israel” and the “Kings of Judah” ruled over separate realms. After the Babylonian exile, “Judah” was usually called “Judea,” the land of the “Jews.” The exact title “King of the Jews” is not used in the OT, but obviously there were many “kings” over the people.
NT: The phrase “King of the Jews” is only applied to Jesus, once at his birth (Matt 2:2) and 17 times at his trial and crucifixion (Mark 15:2, and in all 4 Gospels, but only by opponents). Jesus is also called “King of Israel” four times (Matt 27:42; Mark 15:32; John 1:49; 12:13). Jesus himself refuses to be made king (Matt 4:8-10; John 6:15), but often speaks of the “Kingdom of God” and uses kings as characters in his parables. The inscription place on the cross above Jesus’ head said “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews” (John 19:19; cf. Mark 15:2-26; Matt 27:11-37; Luke 3-38), from which is derived the common abbreviation INRI (from the Latin “Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum”).
As for the rest of your comments,you should have seen my post #34 to understand that many of the OT prophets were a TYPE(Typology) of Christ. I will try and post more if it if I can find time
“”So, I could, if time permitted show how every single one of these does not pertain to Jesus. This is how the church “paints” Jesus into the scripture.””
The Apostles knew Jewish Scripture and literally saw the fulfillment through Christ. Considering there were not many literate people back in that day,it’s quite amazing they got all these typologies and prophecies fulfilled written so accurate.
I think it;s cognitive dissidence seeing through the eyes of the modern world in thinking it was possible to paint Jesus into Scripture in the first century
I wish you a peaceful day!
I'm afraid that's what you and I are up against.
I would argue they either knew just enough to be dangerous or willfully were in error.
MATTHEW’S ERRORS, DISTORTIONS & MISQUOTATIONS
Hugh Fogelman
Over twenty times in the gospel of Matthew, the unknown author goes out of his way to tell of prophecy fulfillment. By doing so, the author of Matthew had to misquote, misinterpret verses in his favor, take verses out of context, or simply make them up to reach his goal. Comparing what the author of Matthew wrote to the Old Testament―the Hebrew Bible; we find the following:
CONTRADICTS OLD TESTAMENT Matthew 1:2―15 – His list of generations does not agree with l Chronicles Ch. 1―3 Matt. 1:16 – Trying so hard to make Jesus appear to come from David's lineage that he ignored Jewish law. The Hebrew bible states that a Hebrew's genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one’s PHYSICAL father (Numbers 1:18 Jeremiah 33:17) Matt.5:43 – had Jesus say, “thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy.” Leviticus 19:18 does not mention any enemy, only “…love thy neighbour as thyself.” Matt. 15:11 – “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” Contradicted by all the dietary laws in the Hebrew bible.
MISQUOTING, TAKING OUT OF CONTEXT AND ALTERING ISAIAH Matt. 1:23 – Mistakenly uses the Septuagint word for virgin instead of Hebrew “Alma” Matt. 1:23 – Misquotes Isaiah 7:14, “they” will call Jesus Immanuel, whereas Isaiah wrote “his mother” would call him Immanuel – not “they.” Matt. 3:3 – Misinterprets and alters Isaiah 40:3 – “Prepare the way of the Lord.” Not so. Matt. 4:15 – Added “Galilee of the Gentiles” to Isaiah 9:1―2. Not in the Hebrew Tanakh. Matt. 8:17 – Took Isaiah 53:4 out of context – Isaiah was relating to a leper (nagua). Matt. 12:17―21 – Taking Isaiah 42:1―4 out of context – the Servant was Israel four times. And then changes verse 21 to read: "and in his name shall the gentiles trust" (Isaiah 42.1―4). Matt. 13.14―15 – Took out of context Isaiah 6:9―10 of people being “blind”
MISQUOTING AND DISTORTING JEWISH PROPHETS Matt. 2:5―6 – Misinterprets Micah 5:2 ― the Messiah coming from Bethlehem. It was David a Bethlemite, born in Bethlehem and from his seed would come the messiah. Matt. 2:15 –Taking Hosea 11:1 out of context, Jesus being called out of Egypt Matt. 2:17―18 – Distorts meaning of Jeremiah 31:1―17 of Rachel weeping. Matt. 11.10 – By changing the pronoun in Malachi 3.1 “before ME” or “before YOU”? Matt. 13:35 – The Christ will speak in parables – distorting Psalm 78:2 Matt. 21:1―7 – Jesus riding on two donkeys at the same time – good trick ― (Zechariah 9:9) Matt. 22:43―44 – Capitalizes the second lord – altering the meaning of Psalm 110:1 Matt. 23:35 Mistakenly gave Zechariah’s father the wrong son. Zechariah was the son of Jehoiada, not Barachiah. II Chronicles 24:20――21 Matt. 27:9 – Quoted the wrong prophet ― was not Jeremiah but Zechariah Matt. 27:9 – Book of Zechariah was never about any “potter’s field”
CONTRADICTS OTHER GOSPELS Matt 2.12 – Contradicts Luke about going to Egypt after Jesus’ birth. Matt 9:9 – Becoming one of the 12 conflicts with Luke and John. Matt 27:57-66 ― Disagrees with Mark, Luke and John at the “burial scene”
MAKING UP STORIES Matt Chapter 2 not verified by any other writer and not logical Matt 2:16 – Got mixed up about Pharaoh & Herod’s Killing of the innocent babies (read the infanticide in Exodus 1:15―22 regarding Pharaoh being told of the Messiah) Matt 2:23 – Jesus dwelt in a city called Nazareth that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, he shall be called a Nazarene”. No prophet ever said this. Matt 23:37 ― [thou] that killest the prophets. Which prophets did the Jewish people kill? Matt 27:51 ― And behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain – event never happened Matt 27:52 ― The graves were opened and the dead went to Jerusalem – never happened Matthew 9:9 ―The author wrote in the third person. This was unusual as no other author wrote that way. Makes one wonder if Matthew himself wrote this book.
Christians should clearly see that the author of Matthew was not inspired by the Christian god - Would the Holy Spirit, as Christians claim, make such gross mistakes ― that is, if the Spirit were guiding the writing of such a document? Why would the Holy Spirit use such an ignorant man to write a so-called “inspired” document ― a man who does not even know the only bible of the time ― the Hebrew bible.
Two things are known:
(1) Matthew, IF he was Jewish, knew very little Hebrew and did not understand the Hebrew Bible, and
(2) He knew very little about Jewish law, since he relied so much on the Greek Septuagint.
The author of Matthew was using the Septuagint 'LXX'―the Greek version of the Hebrew bible compiled in the 2nd century BCE for the Greek―speaking Jews of the Diaspora.
The Jewish Scribes and rabbis only translated the first five books of Moses in the LXX Septuagint. There is no record who wrote the rest of the Hebrew bible, presumably they were not Jews. That means that the Greeks translated Isaiah and the prophets and are responsible for the changing of the word “young woman” in the Hebrew to “virgin” in the Greek ― a blatant mistranslation.
Mathew wrote; “…from the blood of righteous Abel unto Zacharias, son of Barachias, whom you slew between the temple and the altar” (23:35). According to Tanakh, it was Zechariah (Zacharias) son of Jehoiada who was killed by the Temple (ll Chronicles 24:20―21). There is no evidence in the Hebrew bible or in any other writings that Zechariah the Prophet was murdered, let alone killed in the Temple. The First Temple had already been destroyed in Zechariah's time.
In FP, G-d is perfection. He can (as you said) only create perfection. Any and all imperfections in the world and in mankind do not come from G-d at all but rather "an enemy hath done this." G-d being holy (and evidently obsessive-compulsive as well), He can do nothing but damn and destroy that which is imperfect. The notion that one must be personally held responsible for the sin of Adam is nonsense. Rather the sin of Adam rendered all future generations evil and loathsome, something G-d cannot allow to live and yet remain holy. Thus the vicarious damnation of a divine scapegoat. Now either you take advantage of this offer or you must go yourself. It has nothing to do with ethnic or cultural bigotry--it is simply "fact." Everyone deserves to go to hell but the "born-again" chr*stian cannot go there because you can't go to hell if you're already there.
This is FP's interpretation of Paul's anti-Torah philosophy taken to its logical conclusion. Can you now understand the utter puzzlement of FP's at Catholics and Protestants insisting on the "necessity of good works" and keeping the Ten Commandments? After all, to quote the Encyclopedia Britannica's article on Protestantism, devoting time to improving one's character traits and overcoming one's faults is like trying to cure smallpox by scratching off the scabs. To make another illustration, the fact that Joseph Stalin exhibited more symptoms than Mother Teresa doesn't change the fact that they both had the disease and are both in hell (unless one or both of them took advantage of the loophole before dying).
Contemporary FPism's railing against abortion, homosexuality, and immorality is really a bit of a new thing. Not too long ago their bete noir wasn't sin but the "false doctrine" that G-d judges people according to their works and behavior and therefore that human actions are important. To them the Devil does not tempt to sin, but to virtue. He seeks to damn souls not by entangling them in sin (since everyone is damned anyway, why would he need to do that?) but by distracting them from the loophole. He does this by promoting "false religions"--define as any religion that says one must do good and avoid evil. The absolute uniqueness of this doctrine is taken by them as another proof that they are the one true religion: they are the only ones preaching this while all other religions basically teach the same thing. Even the universal human instinct to do good and avoid evil is dismissed in the words of Solomon: "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is the ways of death." Human moral instincts teach us that we should do good and avoid evil. It "seems right unto a man." The entire world rejects J*sus because the world rejects antinomian loophole-ism. To FP's, accepting J*sus is essentially identical to accepting antinomian loophole-ism.
The late Dr. Adrian Rogers, a very well thought of and orthodox Southern Baptist Fundamentalist, had a saying: "The worst form of badness is human goodness." Communism is the perfect villain in the FP worldview because it is "good." It aims to bring about "justice" and "love" and "peace." Could anything be more diabolical? Satan is not a prince of darkness masquerading as an angel of light--he is an angel of light. The light itself is evil. The light is illusory. The light distracts from the truth that salvation is via an antinomian loophole and not through anything else whatsoever.
Since the ultimate act of antinomian worship has always been ritual sin (what better way could one illustrate one's rejection of the meaning of human activity in salvation?) I actually have a theory that this background is one reason some Fundamentalist kids become Satanists. They're not rebelling against their parents or against G-d. They're rebelling against the "angel of light," the beautiful creature with the good intentions who tried to liberate mankind and now inspires man to improve himself. What better way to spit in the face of such a hateful notion? In my own rural Bible-belt county there is a private compound out in the boondocks owned by such people where they sacrifice dogs and do no telling what.
Before you are tempted to sneer or throw up your hands in horror, consider that the traditional chr*stian antinomianism--doing away with Jewish law and ceremonial while insisting on the "natural moral law" and chr*stian positive law--is inherently hypocritical. If chr*stianity's only purpose was to replace one legal-ritual system with another, then what was the point? The heck with it! (Why do you think I became a Noachide?)
At any rate, the liberals have actually arrested this radical antinomian tendency by supporting moral decadence. Now, thanks to the libs, you're actually not supposed to be "gay" (in spite of the fact that you're equally damned whether you're "gay" or not).
This worldview also explains one of the most paradoxical, maddening, most characteristic, and most logical quirks of FP's (which drives everyone else crazy): their pride at being the only people in the world who aren't proud (because they're relying on J*sus' vicarious damnation rather than any goodness or even avoidance of sin on their own part to "get them to Heaven").
It's amazing how little about American Fundamentalist Protestants most people know. It's a fascinating topic.
SFA, you said Adam was created perfect. How did eprfect become imperfect? And if Adam were created perfect wouldn’t he be a god? Perfection does not become imperfection.
Everything is open to an interpretation,dear friend,even your Torah since they don't possess a SINGLE autograph to authenticate them we are relying on TRADITION and FAITH,so your faith is NO different in this respect
This is why Catholicism/ Eastern Orthodoxy is NOT a religion of a book only(Bible)We base our faith on how the early Christians lived,loved and suffered persecution for their faith in Christ and the Church He founded.
I should have said sinless which is why I agreed with you in post #36
Can't get nothing past you. LOL!
Well that is true to a point. But keep in mind the following. The "OT" is considered to be truth by Christians, so therefore the "NT" must conform to the "OT" truths. They must be in harmony. They are not. And it is an easily demonstrable fact. Read this earlier post and tell me how that "OT" messianic era prophecy can possibly be in harmony with "NT" messianic era interpretations. It is impossible. Post 16
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