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The Catholic Mass in 155 A.D.
YouTube ^

Posted on 07/25/2010 10:11:59 AM PDT by NYer

Click the following link:

Mass 155 A.D.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Worship
KEYWORDS: eucharist

1 posted on 07/25/2010 10:12:03 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 07/25/2010 10:12:33 AM PDT by NYer ("God dwells in our midst, in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar." St. Maximilian Kolbe)
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To: NYer

interesting, the catholic church mass was then, is now, and will be...the same...

odd, thought we catholics made that up....

do we have any instructions from 155 a.d. for any protestant ‘services’????


3 posted on 07/25/2010 10:16:57 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: NYer
I took a class in song as worship a couple years ago ..one of the points made was the early Catholic church did not have pews or kneelers.. they were more in the style of the orthodox that stand during the service.. also quite was not demanded, people walked around and often greeted each other during the service.. the only song at that time came from the priest.. not there was no priesthood at the time of Justin Martyr he called the one reading scripture, teaching and then officiation at the Lords supper "the president ".

We have to be careful when we equate the early services with the mass.. there was no prescribed responses and the communal prayers were not in Latin, but the native tongue. There were no vestments or relics on the altar or many of the other Jewish practices that the church later incorporated.

4 posted on 07/25/2010 10:25:41 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me)
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To: NYer
FYI: The Mass of the Early Christians by Mike Aquilina

ML/NJ

5 posted on 07/25/2010 10:27:13 AM PDT by ml/nj
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To: NYer

If anyone would like to read the whole letter...

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.x.ii.iii.html


6 posted on 07/25/2010 10:32:41 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: raygunfan

We have instructions for Pagan services from thousands of years before any Christian service ever happened. If the age of a religion is the only basis of spiritual truth, I guess we’re all heathens.


7 posted on 07/25/2010 10:34:03 AM PDT by Julia H. (Freedom of speech and freedom from criticism are mutually exclusive.)
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To: Julia H.

No, the Catholic Church has never been about following some historical model to the letter, because the New Covenant was literally that: new.

The early Catholic liturgy was a combination of Jewish practice and a few pagan overlays; as the Church advanced, some services became more elaborate and Christianized certain pagan practices (carrying a processional parasol over the Pope on his way to a basilica, a church where he celebrated mass, for example).

The problem with Vatican II is that it rejected 2000 years of development in exchange for a fanciful version of the 2nd century.


8 posted on 07/25/2010 10:41:27 AM PDT by livius
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To: raygunfan

Divine Liturgy in the Orthodox churches has changed little over the centuries. In 155 AD, it was Catholic Liturgy, although not Roman Catholic Liturgy. We are Catholics too.


9 posted on 07/25/2010 11:01:00 AM PDT by firebasecody (Orthodoxy, telling it straight since AD 33)
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To: NYer

Beautiful. Thank you for posting.

That video describes perfectly what we do every week in our non-denominational fundamentalist protestant congregation.

Song, prayer, reading and meditating on the Word, communion with the Lord.

All these years, and it’s still the same.


10 posted on 07/25/2010 11:02:28 AM PDT by Jedidah
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To: raygunfan

No. Apostasy, the “falling away,” had not yet occurred. The church was still young and adherant to the simplicity of the Gospel and the pattern set by Christ and his apostles.

There was not yet anything to “protest.”

I Tim. 4:1-3.


11 posted on 07/25/2010 11:06:19 AM PDT by Jedidah
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To: raygunfan
do we have any instructions from 155 a.d. for any protestant ‘services’????

As a matter of fact yes we do: Nicea, August 24, A.D. 325, 7:41 p.m. "That was powerful preaching, Brother Athanasius. Powerful! Amen! I want to invite any of you folks in the back to approach the altar here and receive the Lord into your hearts. Just come on up. We've got brothers and sisters up here who can lead you through the Sinner's Prayer. Amen! And as this Council of Nicea comes to an end, I want to remind Brother Eusebius to bring the grape juice for tomorrow's closing communion service . .

You can read the rest of here: http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.4/coverstory.html

12 posted on 07/25/2010 11:06:39 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: raygunfan
raygunfan askes the question:do we have any instructions from 155 a.d. for any protestant ‘services’????

Answer: Yes, it's called the Holy Bible

13 posted on 07/25/2010 11:06:59 AM PDT by fatboy
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To: fatboy

AMEN!!!


14 posted on 07/25/2010 11:16:48 AM PDT by small voice in the wilderness (Defending the Indefensible. The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: RnMomof7

one of our priests once said the mass is like the early Jewish rituals


15 posted on 07/25/2010 12:01:19 PM PDT by silverleaf (Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.)
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To: fatboy

fatboy:

You mean the Sacred Scriptures that were not yet codified into the NT canon that was eventually settled at the Councils of Rome (382 AD), Hippo (393 AD), Carthage (397 AD) which are attested to in the writings of St. Augustine and Pope Innocent.

So what did the early Church Liturgy look like, well the essentials are laid out in Acts 2:42 “the devoted themselves to the teachings of the Apostles and to the communal life and to the Breaking of the bread and to the Prayers.”

So teachings of the Apostles would eventually relate to what books were allowed to be read in the Liturgy, the Prayers [well what are those prayers], early works such as the Didache (90-95AD) give us an insight and of course breaking of the bread is “Without A Doubt” a clear indication that the Holy Eucharist was heart and center of Christian Liturgy/Worship.

tsk, tsk,


16 posted on 07/25/2010 12:15:09 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: fatboy; raygunfan; small voice in the wilderness
Answer: Yes, it's called the Holy Bible

Wrong. The "Holy Bible" of the Catholic Church had to wait another 150 or years to be completed by the Church, and that of the Protesters another 1,300 years.

Individual churches in the 2nd century AD had various writings that make up the current Bibles, but they also had many writings that don't. Justin Martyr himself only references the Gospels.

17 posted on 07/25/2010 1:01:18 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: NYer

Good Post! They believed in the real presence being eaten. They knew what it meant from the Apostles. “Truly, truly this is my Body.”


18 posted on 07/25/2010 1:13:08 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: RnMomof7

You are right about the kneelers & pews, but

1) there actually were prescribed responses to the liturgy back then. I’ll have to look up the exact reference.

2) there were relics on the altar—the Eucharist in the catacombs was offered right on the tombs of the martyrs for exactly that purpose. That’s where our modern custom of relics in the altar comes from.

3) the liturgy in Rome was, as far as we know, offered in Greek for the first 200 years or so. Which was not, obviously, the language of your typical Roman. So even back then, if you were an uneducated Roman, you were very likely going to a liturgy in a foreign tongue and not your native one.


19 posted on 07/25/2010 1:28:32 PM PDT by Claud
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To: kosta50
Yes, and the Bereans "were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11.

Perhaps they searched other writings themselves and compared them to scripture and found out those things were not so.

20 posted on 07/25/2010 1:28:48 PM PDT by small voice in the wilderness (Defending the Indefensible. The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: raygunfan
do we have any instructions from 155 a.d. for any protestant ‘services’????

No but the photos from 155 a.d. really came out good. :-)

21 posted on 07/25/2010 1:34:40 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: NYer; Irisshlass; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

22 posted on 07/25/2010 1:37:08 PM PDT by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: silverleaf

Hmmm! Jesus is a Jew. Of course much of the church forgets this and the Jewish leaders want it that way.


23 posted on 07/25/2010 1:38:40 PM PDT by the_daug
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To: RnMomof7

Someone at that class lied to you.

1) There was a priesthood since AD 33.

2) It’s true there were no kneelers of pews - one of the reasons being there were very few church buildings so there were few permanent things built in worship spaces. Don’t forget, the Romans were still actively persecuting the Church at this point.

3) People still amble about and even great each other at Latin Masses today but they do so out of necessity and with decorum.

4) We still refer to the “presiding” priest today, but he is a priest and was in Justin Martyr’s time too. Most people forget that Martyr was writing for a non-Christian audience of one - the emperor - and so he used words the emperor could understand. If anyone says that Martyr’s use of “president” means there was no priesthood, then he is a moron and forgetting who Martyr was writing to.

5) There were prescribed responses - this we know from Martyr himself. Martyr, for instance, wrote, “The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”.”
Obviously “Amen” was the expected, nay, the prescribed response. To say otherwise would be an expression of ignorance.

6)You wrote, “...communal prayers were not in Latin, but the native tongue.”

And what was the native tongue of several million people in the Roman Empire? R-O-M-A-N Empire. Latin, was it not? Not everyone spoke Latin, but many people did. I am sure that Koine Greek was used first - and that’s why we still have Koine Greek prayers in the Latin Mass (it’s called the Kyrie).

7)You wrote, “There were no vestments or relics on the altar or many of the other Jewish practices that the church later incorporated.”

Uh, the vestments that the Church uses to this day are largely from Roman dress - i.e. they were the clothes worn then and became vestments. They were not foisted on the Church. Fashions changed and what the piests wore didn’t. Also, the vestments are a great deal like what Jewish priests wore. Also, relics were present there whenever possible. Look at the catacombs. Mass was siad right there with the relics of the saints because that’s where they were buried!!!

I hope you can get your money back. You were robbed by your teacher.


24 posted on 07/25/2010 2:11:17 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: small voice in the wilderness
Of course, the Bereans only had the Old Testament. If all they needed was the Old Testament then what was the point of writing the New one?
25 posted on 07/25/2010 2:19:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: NYer
The requirement for priests ended in 70 CE
with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

26 posted on 07/25/2010 2:21:31 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: kosta50; small voice in the wilderness
Of course, the Bereans only had the Old Testament. If all they needed was the Old Testament then what was the point of writing the New one?

It is commentary on the Tanach.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
27 posted on 07/25/2010 2:23:50 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: fatboy

St. Paul talks about meeting in people’s homes for a service (Mass) (likewise the other apostles held these services on Sundays) and that was a long time before the Canon of the Bible was decided.

So which comes first? The Church of St. Paul and the other apostles?? Or the Bible??

The Catholic Church wins this one! Christ ordained the apostles the first Bishops before his Ascension into heaven!


28 posted on 07/25/2010 3:00:42 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; small voice in the wilderness; Zionist Conspirator; blasater1960
It is commentary on the Tanach

Sorry, Uri'el, The New Testament is not a "commentary" on the Tanach. And if it is were, the real Jews (not Protestant Christians pretending to be Jews), will tell you it's a horrible distortion of the Tanakh and the Jewish faith to which the Bereans belonged.

29 posted on 07/25/2010 3:26:20 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: Salvation
No Salvation. You can not prove Sunday was made the Sabbath in scripture. It is a point that the Roman Catholic say the Protestant churches pay homage by not in fact keeping the scriptures by following Seventh day Sabbaths.

"Does the Bible support the change to Sunday? “Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” Rome’s Challenge"

30 posted on 07/25/2010 3:39:33 PM PDT by the_daug
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
The requirement for priests ended in 70 CE with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Wrong. “And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me’” (Luke 22:19). At that moment, Christ ordained the Apostles to share the fullness of his high priesthood. He instituted the sacrament of holy orders at the same time he is instituted the sacrament of the Eucharist, thus showing their intimate connection.

31 posted on 07/25/2010 3:46:48 PM PDT by NYer ("God dwells in our midst, in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar." St. Maximilian Kolbe)
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To: RnMomof7
the early Catholic church did not have pews or kneelers

True. Pews are a Protestant invention, necessitated by the long sermons you guys are into. No pews in St. Peters to this day, for example.

not there was no priesthood at the time of Justin Martyr

Sure there was. J.M. came 50 years after Ignatius of Antioch, and Ignatius mentions the threefold division of the clergy: episcopoi ("overseers", bishops), presbyteroi ("elders", priests), and diakonoi (deacons).

there was no prescribed responses

Read Hyppolytus of Rome. There most certainly were some prescribed responses.

the communal prayers were not in Latin, but the native tongue

No, they were in Greek, which wasn't the "native tongue" in the West. Later on, they were translated into the "native tongue," which was of course Latin.

There were no vestments

Again, this is wrong. Clerical dress as we know it today developed from the common dress of the upper-class Roman at that time. It's secular dress that has changed since then. If you could be transported back to a Christian service of the 2nd or 3rd Century, you would discover that the "president" was dressed something like this:

He wears a linen tunic (compare to the priest's alb of today) and over it a toga (compare to the chasuble of today). The men in the congregation dressed much the same. Over time, secular dress for men has changed greatly. Priestly dress has changed, too, but much less.

relics on the altar

Again, quite commonly Mass was celebrated in the catacombs, on the tombs of the martyrs, which is where the practice of incorporating a relic in the altar originated.

32 posted on 07/25/2010 4:08:28 PM PDT by Campion
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To: kosta50
Sorry, Uri'el, The New Testament is not a "commentary" on the Tanach. And if it is were, the real Jews (not Protestant Christians pretending to be Jews), will tell you it's a horrible distortion of the Tanakh and the Jewish faith to which the Bereans belonged.

True, though it's hard to be too angry at American Fundamentalists when their philo-Semitism seems so much more in tune with the whole bible than the traditional anti-Semitism of other chr*stians. And the Ethiopian Church is a little Judaically syncretistic as well (I've read somewhere that they claim to be the only chr*stian church in existence that is totally free of Marcionism).

Unfortunately, American "Bible chr*stians" accept the TaNa"KH, not on its own terms, but because it's part of the Protestant bible. They seem mentally/emotionally unable to think of a Hebrew Bible without a "new testament" tacked onto it.

Such nice people, but so frustrating!

33 posted on 07/25/2010 6:25:08 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (. . . Lo' `al-halechem levaddo yichyeh ha'adam, ki `al-kol-motza' fi HaShem yichyeh ha'adam.)
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To: raygunfan

Much like the Catholic church, there was no such thing as a Protestant church in 155 A.D.


34 posted on 07/25/2010 6:27:23 PM PDT by Grunthor (My coffee creamer is fat free because I am not.)
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To: NYer
U-2012>The requirement for priests ended in 70 CE with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Wrong. “And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me’” (Luke 22:19). At that moment, Christ ordained the Apostles to share the fullness of his high priesthood. He instituted the sacrament of holy orders at the same time he is instituted the sacrament of the Eucharist, thus showing their intimate connection.

The plain text would suggest the annual
celebration of Passover is what is to be
done in remembrance of the Jewish Messiah.

Since the "last supper" was in fact a Pesach Seder .

Passover was and is a YHvH commanded feast.

A Passover Seder does not require a Priest
as it is a Family celebration.

So all of the Roman "church" eisegesis is bogus.

Seek the face of YHvH in His Holy Word.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
35 posted on 07/25/2010 6:36:15 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: kosta50
U-2012>It is commentary on the Tanach

Sorry, Uri'el, The New Testament is not a "commentary" on the Tanach. And if it is were, the real Jews (not Protestant Christians pretending to be Jews), will tell you it's a horrible distortion of the Tanakh and the Jewish faith to which the Bereans belonged.

If one reads with the illumination of the Ru'ach haKodesh
one will see the seamlessness of the Word of G-d.

If one reads the NT through the lens of the Paganism of Nicea
the Tanach will appear as a distortion.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
36 posted on 07/25/2010 6:53:31 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; kosta50
Sorry, Uri'el, The New Testament is not a "commentary" on the Tanach.

Exactly right...the Greek (NT) testament is more often than not a misquotation, out of context interpretation of the Jewish law and prophets. They are not seamless at all.

Just like Mormonism is a misquoted, taken out of context interpretation of the "NT" and the "OT" resulting in a false doctrine of Christianity. Christianity does the same to Judaism.

37 posted on 07/25/2010 8:48:55 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
True, though it's hard to be too angry at American Fundamentalists when their philo-Semitism seems so much more in tune with the whole bible than the traditional anti-Semitism of other chr*stians

As long as one remembers that their philo-Semitism is not really "philo" anything but a belief based on the New Testament that it is their divine duty to convert all the Jews to Christ before the second coming...

38 posted on 07/25/2010 9:18:32 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: blasater1960; UriĀ’el-2012
the Greek (NT) testament is more often than not a misquotation, out of context interpretation of the Jewish law and prophets. They are not seamless at all

Exactly. Not something they teach in Sunday school is it? :)

Just like Mormonism is a misquoted, taken out of context interpretation of the "NT" and the "OT" resulting in a false doctrine of Christianity. Christianity does the same to Judaism

I use the same analogy all the time. Most mainline Christians consider Mormonism a cult precisely for all the reasons you mentioned above—it's a distortion of a distortion.

39 posted on 07/25/2010 9:22:46 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: raygunfan

Hmmm...your right, not one word about “services”. Or Mass, either. What is described there is exactly what we did in our “protestant” service this morning. In remembrance of Christ.


40 posted on 07/25/2010 9:25:45 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
If one reads with the illumination of the Ru'ach haKodesh one will see the seamlessness of the Word of G-d. If one reads the NT through the lens of the Paganism of Nicea the Tanach will appear as a distortion.

Every observant Jew of any denomination will tell you that the NT is not a "commentary" on the Tanakh, but nothing short of distortion.

41 posted on 07/25/2010 9:26:16 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: blasater1960
.the Greek (NT) testament is more often than not a misquotation, out of context interpretation of the Jewish law and prophets. They are not seamless at all.

I guess I've been blessed by YHvH,
who has stripped away all the man made
traditions of the
Pharisees and the Greek Pagans
and pointed me only to His Word.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
42 posted on 07/26/2010 8:27:30 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: kosta50
U-2012>If one reads with the illumination of the Ru'ach haKodesh one will see the seamlessness of the Word of G-d. If one reads the NT through the lens of the Paganism of Nicea the Tanach will appear as a distortion.

Every observant Jew of any denomination will tell you that the NT is not a "commentary" on the Tanakh, but nothing short of distortion.

Do you speak for the Karaites ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
43 posted on 07/26/2010 8:39:09 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
Do you speak for the Karaites ?

No, I am simply saying what every Jewish or Noachide site says or observant Jews has told me about the New Testament.

44 posted on 07/26/2010 10:11:56 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: fatboy

The Bible as you know it didn’t exist in 155 A.D.


45 posted on 07/26/2010 10:17:40 AM PDT by Lorica
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To: Jedidah
That video describes perfectly what we do every week in our non-denominational fundamentalist protestant congregation.

Song, prayer, reading and meditating on the Word, communion with the Lord.

All these years, and it’s still the same.

I don't think so.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 A.D.)

I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible. (Letter to Romans 7:3)

Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery... (Letter to Philadelphians 4:1)

They [the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrn 7:1)


46 posted on 07/26/2010 10:22:33 AM PDT by Lorica
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To: vladimir998

-—”You were robbed by your teacher.”-—

We expect as much from a class called “song as worship”. Bet we can pretty much guess what the “songs” (note, not “hymns”) are too.

As soon as I read that post, even with the obvious sincerity and goodwill of the poster, I was hoping someone would refute the errors. Thanks.


47 posted on 07/27/2010 8:01:18 PM PDT by baa39
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To: firebasecody

yes, you are. We are all orthodox in belief, members of the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church


48 posted on 08/18/2010 7:48:09 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: NYer; MODELSHIPS

Fascinating. Thank you, NYer


49 posted on 09/04/2011 10:07:01 PM PDT by Cronos (John 6:61-64: Jesus rebukes those who think the Eucharist is just a symbol/metaphor, repeats: Jn8:15)
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To: firebasecody; raygunfan

Of course you are — by no means could you be clubbed with our “p” friends. Both of us are part of the ONE Holy Apostolic Catholic Church


50 posted on 09/04/2011 10:08:45 PM PDT by Cronos (John 6:61-64: Jesus rebukes those who think the Eucharist is just a symbol/metaphor, repeats: Jn8:15)
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