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Holy mess: 11 million Irish Americans leave Catholic Church
Irish Central ^ | September 25, 2009 | Niall O'Dowd

Posted on 07/25/2010 10:44:46 AM PDT by Gamecock

A new survey shows 34 million Americans, or 15 percent of the population, say they have no religion.

Even more significant is that one-third of those, about 11 million people, are Irish Americans.

The survey by professors at Trinity College in Hartford, CT, does not explain why Irish Catholics are by far the highest number of people who are losing their religion every year in America.

We can only surmise the reasons for this, but I have some definite ideas. Think church sex scandals. Let's look at the timeline first. The number of non-religious or "Nones" has nearly doubled between 1990 and now.

* In 1990, Nones accounted for 8.2 percent of the population

* In 2001 they accounted for 14.2 percent

* As of 2009, they account for 15 percent

The report estimates that the figure will grow to 25 percent in 10 years time — making non-religion the largest "religion" in America.

Why are so many Irish Catholics leaving the faith? The obvious reason to me is the church sex scandals. They disproportionately affected Irish Catholics and most of the abusers we read about were Irish Catholic priests.

Certainly, based on evidence from Ireland where hundreds of thousands have fled the church and vocations have plummeted after the church scandals there, America with a similar experience is unlikely to be any different.

There has been such incredible scrutiny of the church from every angle and the church has responded so poorly since the scandals began that it is hardly surprising that people are leaving.

For instance, the Boston archdiocese, a hub of Irish Catholicism in America, has been riven by deep scandals that surely have turned many parishioners off

It is only my opinion but Irish Catholics had a deep and almost mystical attachment to the church and followed her rules more devoutly than other groups.

"Rome dictates and Ireland takes" was the old saw about how devoutly the Irish followed the signals from the Vatican.

Once that trust was broken — indeed shattered — it was always likely that many would turn away.

We are told that the leavers are "young, male and independent" and that almost all of them were identified as Catholic at age 12.

The loss of faith by Irish Americans has been profound and will require an incredible effort to win the faithful departed back. The church has a massive struggle on its hands.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History
KEYWORDS: catholic; crossingthetiber; diplomacy; ireland; irish; romancatholicism; vatican
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1 posted on 07/25/2010 10:44:50 AM PDT by Gamecock
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Quix; metmom; TSgt; Alex Murphy

!


2 posted on 07/25/2010 10:47:14 AM PDT by Gamecock ("God leads us to eternal life not by our merits but according to his mercy." - Augustine)
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To: Gamecock

I think it’s more about NOT being a member of one particular parish church than being a Catholic.


3 posted on 07/25/2010 10:48:20 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (What)
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To: Gamecock

If 2% of priests,acting immorally,can cause so many to “lose” their faith then it couldn’t have been very strong to begin with.


4 posted on 07/25/2010 10:51:33 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (''I don't regret setting bombs,I feel we didn't do enough.'' ->Bill Ayers,Hussein's mentor,9/11/01)
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To: Gamecock; Quix
The first step toward recovery is halting the disease.

Thank God for an exodus from dead tradition.


Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

5 posted on 07/25/2010 10:52:07 AM PDT by The Comedian (Evil can only succeed if good men don't point at it and laugh.)
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To: Gamecock

It’s not the same America their ancestors came to.


6 posted on 07/25/2010 10:53:46 AM PDT by wastedyears (The Founders revolted for less.)
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To: Gamecock
"Why are so many Irish Catholics leaving the faith? "

O'Dowd seems to equate leaving the church with "leaving the faith." And, he seems to think Irish and Catholic are joined at the hip, as though there are no Irish who are not Catholic (or were until recently) Are these a correct assumptions?

7 posted on 07/25/2010 10:55:36 AM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
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To: Gamecock

Not to worry—12 million Mexicans will take their place.


8 posted on 07/25/2010 10:58:32 AM PDT by Palladin (Obama to BP: "Did you plug the hole, Daddy?")
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To: Gamecock
This thesis contradicts human psychology. the fact is that Irish Catholics live in overwhelmingly liberal urban areas with high taxes and costs of living. The decision to not pay for parochial school is an easy one to make and an easy one to justify. The children grow up without a Catholic education and fall away. All the ones I know fit this description precisely. The scandals are an excellent justification, but an ex post facto justification.
9 posted on 07/25/2010 10:58:41 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Gamecock
This is an example of an inability to interpret data and the willingness to extrapolate to a desired conclusion. At its basis there isn't even a definition of terms or isolation of variables. How are "Irish" defined? Is it anyone with an Irish surname? Is it anyone who is of 100% Irish heritage, 75%, 50%, 12.5%, 1%? Notre Dame fans?

And how is "left" defined? Is is a permanent separation or only temporary? Is it a conversion to another faith or denomination, is it agnosticism or full blown atheism?

Like a Rorschach test or an afternoon discussing cloud images, at best this study will only serve as fodder for those who wish to prove a pointless point.

10 posted on 07/25/2010 11:03:36 AM PDT by Natural Law (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Gamecock

Americans of Irish descent disproportionly live in very Blue areas - Massachusetts, NH, Vermont, RI, and the Northern counties of NY and parts of NJ.

I’m not sure if the cart is leading the horse or vice versa.

I do know that I am a person of faith, coming from these areas, but lots of people that called themselves Catholics up there were never more than Easter and Christmas mass Catholics. It only takes a small nudge from the secular progressive community, like an elitist college experience where faith is looked down on, to push someone over into agnostism.

In any case I see a spiritual blackness over that area of the country. People are searching, but so many of them won’t even hear the gospel message because it just is so “uncool”. They don’t know what to believe - they seek it out in modern spiritual SP humanistic stuff, but it leaves them unsatisfied. I’ve seen it. They are the center of their own universes and don’t know where to turn when real trouble comes.


11 posted on 07/25/2010 11:07:33 AM PDT by I still care (I believe in the universality of freedom -George Bush, asked if he regrets going to war.)
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To: Gamecock

Think John Kerry and you’ll understand why so many are leaving. To many CINO being Catholic is Cultural and not a sign of their personal faith. You have such people leaving for two reasons and the reasons actually are opposed to each other. One reason is for the Church emphasizing that support for the culture of death can not be reconciled with Catholic teaching. They leave because it is useless to pretend anymore.

But the other group leaving, Irish or otherwise, did not see their faith as only a cultural exercise and they are the ones who have been wounded either directly or indirectly by the scandals. They have not lost their faith in God but the behavior of some in the Church has so tested them and given them such great pain that the bitterness, anger and sadness they feel only grows if they remain in the Church. They usually leave to find another place of worship and they keep their faith in God.

To me it is better they leave and keep their faith then have it killed by the wrongs done by other Catholics, clergy or lay.


12 posted on 07/25/2010 11:09:41 AM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Gamecock
I believe sex scandals have been catastrophic for the Catholic Church.

I think a generation of liberal 'anything goes' bishops has hurt a great deal. So many of these outspoken bishops were economic half wits who and big government enablers and have hurt the cause. They came close to driving me away.

There are other social issues for which they have spoken that would have helped if they had simply put socks in them.

I'm more religious today, by far, than I was when I attended the seminary over forty years ago. Hence, I've stuck around. My own personal journey has not been due to anything Catholic hierarchy in this country has offered.

I believe the Catholic Church can recover but won't until the teachers of Catholicism do so based on the New Testament and not on desire for good social feelings.

Religion is a personal matter. My personal "Amazing Grace" is the Gospel of John.

13 posted on 07/25/2010 11:12:53 AM PDT by stevem
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To: Gamecock

Serious question here: What are the criteria for being an “Irish American”? Anyone know? My anscestors on both sides came from Ulster and were Presbyterians. Of course, that was more than two centuries ago. Am I an “Irish American”?


14 posted on 07/25/2010 11:15:57 AM PDT by Gurn (Remember Mountain Meadows.)
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To: Gamecock

Let me suggest that it was not scandal that caused this, but the perpetual mistake of the church: improper involvement in the secular world.

The side effect of doing this is the creation of “social Catholics”. People who are indifferent to the religion, but want in on the secular influence and business connections of the church.

In short order, this hypocrisy breeds active dislike for the church, some even despising it and its doctrines.

Catholics who would have left because of scandal would not be mad at the church. Instead they would be saddened and disappointed.

But social Catholics are angry with the church. They hate that they had to pretend to be Catholic, to get “Catholic benefits”. And if you go down the list of what the church supports, they will oppose every one of those things, just because.

They also demand things they know the church will reject, because it would be harmful to the church. Then they sneer when the church is constant in its beliefs.

And yet they still call themselves “Catholic.”


15 posted on 07/25/2010 11:18:55 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: Gamecock
The sex scandals involving a tiny minority of clergy are a red herring. It was Paul who taught us that there will always be "wolves" within the church so even at 2%, that number is impressively tiny, even with the media doing everything in its power to make it look as if every Catholic priest, deacon, nun and whatnot are abusing children.

I think the real problem is that whenever someone hears the term "Irish Catholic," they think of flamingly liberal sexually immoral drunks who kill people and get away with it, i.e., people like Ted Kennedy. No one thinks of "Irish Catholic" as meaning anything religious anymore.

16 posted on 07/25/2010 11:23:12 AM PDT by pnh102 (Regarding liberalism, always attribute to malice what you think can be explained by stupidity. - Me)
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To: Gamecock

John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

That’s it in a nutshell.


17 posted on 07/25/2010 11:24:31 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Catholics still call those who have left the RCC *Catholic*.

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic, in the RCC mind.


18 posted on 07/25/2010 11:27:19 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
Then they sneer when the church is constant in its beliefs.

My personal sneer lies in the fact that the church is not constant in their beliefs.

19 posted on 07/25/2010 11:33:23 AM PDT by OldNavyVet (One trillion days, at 365 days per year, is 2,739,726,027 years ... almost 3 billion years)
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To: Gamecock
Well, one thing to consider is that from US census to US census there were major demographic shifts in the US population. If I am not mistaken, in the 1960s-1990s, weren't most Catholics in the US Irish and Italians anyway? If most of the Catholics in the US were Irish, then the problems of the US Catholic Church 1960s and 1970s would have been primarily an Irish problem anyway. (It would be helpful to see a graph of the numbers of Irish leaving the Church and the exact year of their departure. Did it happen all in a spurt?)

In any case, the point is that most Catholics leaving the Church were probably Irish, because most Catholics in the US used to be Irish. It's only in the last two decades that hispanics have challenged the Irish and Italians for that title. After hispanics have been exposed to atheistic culture that is being peddled by the mainstream media as intensely as Americans have, they'll probably overtake the Irish in leaving the US Catholic Church. (IIRC, this process is accelerating even in Mexico). But who knows? Perhaps, the economic disaster and political turmoil will make people turn back to God.

In any case, the culture of the US since 1960 has been gradually trying to ween Americans off Religion in general and has only accelerated with every decade since the 60's. The trend probably holds across the board in all denominations. (Another thing to consider is that the Irish populations were primarily located in cities which makes it easier to expose them to anti-religious/Communist propaganda.

Another possibility to consider is this. The author lists "mysticism" as a reason for Irish devotion to the Church. If we accept that as true, then the changes to the liturgy, rites, and traditions of the Church following Vatican II would have almost certainly played a part in the loss of their faith.

In summary, you could probably say this. In Mexico, there probably has been a serious loss of Catholics who are hispanic (because most Catholics in Mexcio are hispanic). In Italy, most of the people who leave the Church are probably ethnic Italians because most Catholics there are Italians. The same is probably true of the US Catholics who until recently were probably mostly Irish. However, I bet if you look at all of these countries, there is probably a serious loss of members in all of them. It is the materialistic, selfish culture that has brought this on. It makes everyone leave, and which race leaves the Church probably just depends on who the largest race in each individual country is. It is probable that the race has nothing to do with their leaving the Church at all. The reason for their leaving is probably a loss of faith in God caused by the communist/progressive, selfish, indulgent ideologies that are winning the culture war through mainstream media brainwashing. Meanwhile, the Church shoots itself in the foot by getting lax on serious crimes and butchering its own liturgy, while simultaneously supporting the same ideologies that are undermining them from the pulpit.

20 posted on 07/25/2010 11:36:19 AM PDT by old republic
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To: Gurn

I believe if you can trace your roots to Ireland then you can call yourself an “Irish American”. That being said, you would also refer to yourself as “orange Irish”. This term simply denotes that you are not Catholic but protestant. I am not sure what percentage can really make you one or not but simply a value of your Irish heritage.


21 posted on 07/25/2010 11:37:50 AM PDT by momtothree
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To: momtothree

Yeah, we’re much more of the “Scots” in “Scots-Irish.” :-)


22 posted on 07/25/2010 11:41:09 AM PDT by Gurn (Remember Mountain Meadows.)
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To: Gamecock

Two big factors:

1. The Kennedys.

2. Irish Catholics assimilated.


23 posted on 07/25/2010 11:50:13 AM PDT by LibFreeOrDie (Obama promised a gold mine, but will give us the shaft.)
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To: Gamecock

A lot of people didn’t like Vatican II changes, didn’t like folk Masses, Mass of the Faithful, hand clapping, guitar playing, etc.. They like and miss traditional Mass. Plus secular culture has waged unrelenting war against the Church for most of my adult life, but sooner or later, Catholics who’ve stopped going to Mass will feel that tap on the shoulder from God and they’ll return to the faith.


24 posted on 07/25/2010 11:53:18 AM PDT by hershey
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To: lastchance
Think John Kerry and you’ll understand why so many are leaving. To many CINO being Catholic is Cultural and not a sign of their personal faith. You have such people leaving for two reasons and the reasons actually are opposed to each other. One reason is for the Church emphasizing that support for the culture of death can not be reconciled with Catholic teaching. They leave because it is useless to pretend anymore.

NAILED IT RIGHT THERE.

My parish in St. Louis counts Claire McCaskill (D-Missouri) as an esteemed parishoner. Pro-abort, but since she donates big bucks, they ignore her VOTES. Further, our archidiocese holds out the local mafia bosses as great Catholics. Again, they donate big bucks, therefore they are granted legitimacy by the Church.

25 posted on 07/25/2010 12:04:59 PM PDT by demsux (Obama: THE job destroyer)
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To: Sacajaweau

yes, you are right.
I am Catholic born and bred and proud of it. I will die a Catholic born and bred and proud of it. I have my faith and my belief in God.
THAT is what is important. The church has gone over the edge and thank God we have enough strong faith to remain a born and bred Catholic with the church making a mockery of everything. Our faith and love is between us and our God. No one else.


26 posted on 07/25/2010 12:08:42 PM PDT by cubreporter ( Trust Rush and you won't go wrong.)
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To: stevem

God bless you friend. It IS personal and you feel the way we do. The church itself has been despicable in our eyes for a long, long time. I will not go sit in a church and take part in the circus like atmosphere that goes on in so many parishes. It’s church not an entertainment arena. We pray quietly at home. We see God in the birds, the sky, the rain, the sun, all of nature, the children and the love and goodness we see in many others. THAT’S what religion and faith is all about. Not some building filled with frills. The money wasted in the church and the money wasted in lawsuits is mind boggling and we want no part of it. We carry Jesus in our hearts and always have ... now we do it on our own without a building.


27 posted on 07/25/2010 12:13:14 PM PDT by cubreporter ( Trust Rush and you won't go wrong.)
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To: demsux

follow the money. It will always show what is really going on.


28 posted on 07/25/2010 12:15:43 PM PDT by cubreporter ( Trust Rush and you won't go wrong.)
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To: OldNavyVet
My personal sneer lies in the fact that the church is not constant in their beliefs.

The Church as an organization used to be really firm in its stated beliefs until the aftermath of the Second Vatican Council. Before Vatican II, bishops played hardball and the threat of excommunication was a lot more potent. It wasn't the wishy-washy automatic kind that everyone just ignores and goes to communion anyway. Back in the day, they used a more dramatic, and publicly declared Rite of Excommunication in which the bishop publicly smashed a candle representing the excommunicant's baptism candle, and then publicly declared him to be damned with the devil unless they repented while a funeral bell tolled, and the Gospel was slammed shut. (This rite was suppressed after the revision of Canon Law in 1983, it was apparently considered to be hurtful of feelings). However, it definitely left no doubt in anyone's mind of whether you could receive communion or not.

In any case, lots of things changed in the years following Vatican II and the laxity of enforcement and teaching that ensued. Most bishops would not enforce/teach the Churches beliefs, and if they did, many wouldn't enforce the teachings anyway. Worse yet, some clergy even worked against Church beliefs outright without fear of punishment. Consequently, there was a loss of the sense of sin in society. It's not that the Church has changed its beliefs, it's that many who are Catholic don't believe the Church's teachings and ignore them and teach what they want to.

29 posted on 07/25/2010 12:25:11 PM PDT by old republic
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To: cubreporter
I have my faith and my belief in God....Our faith and love is between us and our God.

I find it hard to imagine a situation in which things will end up badly for someone who believes in God and loves Him. A pure love of God, is definitely a sure sign of saving grace.

30 posted on 07/25/2010 12:33:15 PM PDT by old republic
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To: old republic

Amen.


31 posted on 07/25/2010 12:55:56 PM PDT by cubreporter ( Trust Rush and you won't go wrong.)
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To: Gamecock

I don’t see where it should be of concern. After all, God knew this would happen before He even created these people...yet He still created them.


32 posted on 07/25/2010 12:56:42 PM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to...otherwise, things would be different)
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To: Gamecock

The number of non-religious or “Nones” has nearly doubled between 1990 and now.

* In 1990, Nones accounted for 8.2 percent of the population

* In 2001 they accounted for 14.2 percent

* As of 2009, they account for 15 percent


Some would say the news media has done it’s job. Others would blame the sex abuse victims. I blame Satan. How he loves to destroy the proud.


33 posted on 07/25/2010 1:16:58 PM PDT by Grunthor (My coffee creamer is fat free because I am not.)
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To: Gurn

“Serious question here: What are the criteria for being an “Irish American”? Anyone know? My anscestors on both sides came from Ulster and were Presbyterians. Of course, that was more than two centuries ago. Am I an “Irish American”?”

Given the time frame they came to the U.S. and the fact that they were Ulster Presbyterians, I can say with almost 100% certainty that they were Ulster Scots known here as Scots-Irish.


34 posted on 07/25/2010 1:18:05 PM PDT by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis "Ya gotta saddle up your boys; Ya gotta draw a hard line")
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To: Gamecock

Too many of the Irish Americans are in NYC and Boston and have been corrupted over the years.


35 posted on 07/25/2010 1:18:56 PM PDT by Tanniker Smith (There is neither honesty, manhood nor good fellowship in thee.)
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To: Gamecock

“The survey by professors at Trinity College in Hartford, CT, does not explain why Irish Catholics are by far the highest number of people who are losing their religion every year in America.”

Liberalism. The Irish Catholics - although hated and scorned when they first came here - blended in within two generations. They were white, spoke English, and understood Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture. They became successes and adopted liberalism. Since the 1950s this was increasingly obvious. Most Irish Americans are much more dedicated to the Democratic Party than the Church and have been for two generations already.


36 posted on 07/25/2010 1:47:31 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: metmom

Sounds like organized crime.


37 posted on 07/25/2010 1:52:06 PM PDT by Gamecock ("God leads us to eternal life not by our merits but according to his mercy." - Augustine)
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It is because they are Democrats. Statism, abortion, and homosexual marriage are their new gods.
38 posted on 07/25/2010 1:58:17 PM PDT by Godwin1
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To: Gamecock; boatbums; Iscool; RnMomof7; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; count-your-change; the_conscience; ...

Incredible.....

Catholics condemn other Catholics for leaving a church which doesn’t hold true to its stated beliefs, whose priests are scandalizing it with pedophilia, mafioso and corrupt, immoral politicians who remain in the church are held in esteem as *good Catholics*, and a blind eye is turned towards their violation of church doctrine by the clergy which participates in immorality itself.

And then lay Catholics can’t figure out why people would want to leave.

Did it ever occur to them that the Catholic church itself is giving people plenty of justification for leaving? If it won’t take its own stated beliefs seriously, why should anyone else?


39 posted on 07/25/2010 2:12:27 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

“We are born spiritually blind, and cannot be restored without a miracle of grace. This is your case, whoever you are, that are not born again.” A.W. Pink


40 posted on 07/25/2010 2:17:30 PM PDT by Gamecock ("God leads us to eternal life not by our merits but according to his mercy." - Augustine)
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To: metmom

“We are born spiritually blind, and cannot be restored without a miracle of grace. This is your case, whoever you are, that are not born again.” A.W. Pink


41 posted on 07/25/2010 2:17:34 PM PDT by Gamecock ("God leads us to eternal life not by our merits but according to his mercy." - Augustine)
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To: BnBlFlag

A very valid question. The answer is probably whoever self-identifies as “Irish” and checks the box on the census is listed as being that ethnic group. There probably is no need for the claim to be valid. The stats also might not account for the fact that the Census allows you to claim more than one ethnic identification. (I think the more recent US censuses allow you to claim more than one ethnic identity now, but some of the earlier census sheets probably only let you choose one.) Of course, I am presuming that this article is getting their statistics solely drawn from the Bureau of the Census.


42 posted on 07/25/2010 2:36:57 PM PDT by old republic
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To: Gamecock

HORRIFIC.

I expect, however, in a flash, a whole gaggle of weaselly RC’s will be on here to explain how

1 + 1 does NOT equal 2 etc. in compiling such statistics.

I keep forgetting that the Vatican math and statistics texts are also rubbery.


43 posted on 07/25/2010 3:04:20 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: The Comedian

The first step toward recovery is halting the disease.
Thank God for an exodus from dead tradition.


INDEED.

THX BRO.


44 posted on 07/25/2010 3:05:02 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: old republic
A lot of American Catholics have Irish ancestry but I don't know if it's correct to say that "most Catholics" are Irish. At any rate now there is so much intermarriage that a lot of people have mixed ancestries--I read somewhere that Dennis Kucinich is part-Irish (his surname is Croatian). In the colonial era there were some English Catholics in America (think Charles Carroll of Carrollton, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, who was a Catholic).

In the mid- 19th century there were lots of Irish and German Catholic immigrants, then later Italians, Poles, Lithuanians, Lebanese, French Canadians, and many other nationalities. In the 20th century there were Hispanic and Filipino Catholic immigrants.

So whether the Irish are a majority of American Catholics is hard to say--I would guess they might be #1 in numbers (unless German-Americans are) but probably not a majority.

I had one great-great-grandmother who was an Irish immigrant (O'Brien) but I don't think of myself as Irish-American.

45 posted on 07/25/2010 3:22:22 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: metmom

“Did it ever occur to them that the Catholic church itself is giving people plenty of justification for leaving? If it won’t take its own stated beliefs seriously, why should anyone else?”

Precisely!!


46 posted on 07/25/2010 3:32:32 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom
And then lay Catholics can’t figure out why people would want to leave.

If corrupt clergy is sufficient to make them "want to leave," it's a cinch they didn't really believe and know what they believed in the first place.

Seriously: either it's true or it's not. If it's not, it's time to get out. If it is, someone else's failure to live up to it doesn't make it anything less than true. Or, put another way: if one Judas didn't make Jesus a fraud, a thousand Judases don't make him a fraud, either.

The truth of the matter is that Catholics haven't been properly catechized for close to 50 years. Add that to the "vicarious Christianity" outlook that many Christians -- not only Catholics -- have ["holiness is for priests or nuns or ministers; I go to church one hour a week and that's enough"], and it's a miracle of God's grace that any stayed.

47 posted on 07/25/2010 3:50:48 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion

There’s a big difference between the laity being hypocrites and the clergy.

If the clergy and leaders of the Church don’t even live what they teach and claim to believe, it does seriously cut into their credibility. Why should anyone think that what they say is true if they don’t live like they believe it themselves?

It boggles the mind that Catholics expect and demand that one stay in a corrupt, hypocritical organization when there are other churches out there. But then again, being told that the church you belong to is what matters in your salvation, it shouldn’t really come as a surprise.

People are waking up to the fact that church membership is not a requirement for salvation, that faith in Christ is.


48 posted on 07/25/2010 3:56:50 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
People are waking up to the fact that church membership is not a requirement for salvation, that faith in Christ is.

Amazing how a seemingly little mistake like that can damn you.

Church - pretty important!

49 posted on 07/25/2010 5:19:31 PM PDT by cmj328 (Got ruthless?)
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To: metmom
I also wonder why so many refuse to accept Vatican II proclamations. Did not the ruling magisterium of cardinals, bishops and the Pope at that time all come to an agreement on the statements that came out of this council? What happened to the infallibility of the Church? I have heard many Freepers state emphatically that the Catholic Church has been constant in its truth for “2000 years”, yet why is there so must dissension in the rank and file?

I hear the words but I sure don't see the proof behind them.

My conversion from Roman Catholicism came from a direct response to hearing the Gospel from the word of God after a simple prayer asking him for the truth. I was not angry nor disillusioned. I was seeking the truth that, in my heart, I knew I had not heard yet. Once I did, I knew there was no going back.

50 posted on 07/25/2010 5:31:05 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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