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Palinís people: The rise of Rick Warren and the mega-church Bible Belt.
The New Statesman ^ | July 26, 2010 | Rob Blackhurst

Posted on 07/25/2010 11:49:46 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

"Everybody sing ee-oo," declaims the clean-cut thirtysomething at the front of the vast auditorium. Ten thousand Californian voices respond. Over a backing of soaring power chords, the soloist launches into an ecstatic, 1980s-style anthem: "If you're alive and you've been redeemed,/Rise and sing, rise and sing."

Pastor Rick Warren, America's most im­portant religious leader since Billy Graham, emerges from the wings, wearing jeans and a short-sleeved shirt, a trimmed CEO beard and a little more weight than his doctor might recommend. When he speaks, his words are as warm as the Orange County sunshine: the homily is a practical one, advising fathers to pay their children more attention. On gigantic television screens, Jesus on the cross tells John to look after His mother when he dies.

This talent for presenting simple biblical lessons for a suburban age is behind The Purpose-Driven Life, Warren's book detailing his 40-day plan for "Christian living in the 21st century", which is on the shelf of almost every evange­lical household in the US. It has become one of the bestselling non-fiction hardbacks in American history, turning the pastor into a sort of spiritual Oprah, with trademarked books and podcasts and appearances at Wal-Mart. Warren's face has been on the cover of Time; and he was chosen to offer the prayers at Barack Obama's inauguration.

Warren set up Saddleback Church in 1980, selecting the location - Lake Forest, a suburb of McMansions and shopping malls - for its transient but growing population. That first Easter Sunday, 200 attended; Saddleback has since grown into a sprawling, 120-acre campus with an average weekend attendance of 22,000. Once, the stereotype of evangelicals as Southern, rural and poor might have been true. Now, they are far more likely to be college-educated, upwardly mobile professionals.

Sixty miles south of Los Angeles, Saddleback is one of the mega-churches (those with at least 2,000 congregants) that make up the stretch between LA and San Diego known as the "southern Californian Bible Belt". In its grounds, information booths carry maps directing visitors to several white marquees that offer different styles of worship; there are burbling crystal fountains and a baptismal pool that looks like it belongs in an upmarket spa. The teenagers' area, meanwhile, is deliberately scuffed-looking. It contains a big wall display on Aids in Africa - the issue over which Warren has had his greatest impact on evangelicals.

Aids has largely either been ignored by American evangelical churches or treated as a punishment from God. Warren's views are closely aligned with those of the conventional religious right in many areas - in 2004, he said that stem-cell research was "non-negotiable" and compared abortion to a "holocaust".

Yet, a year earlier, he had attended a church conference in South Africa with his wife, Kay. She was recovering from cancer and was keen to adopt a big cause. "So we went out to this little village and found this tent church," he has said. "It had 50 adults and 25 kids orphaned by Aids." He has since joined the Bono/Bill Gates philanthropy club, despatching 7,500 volunteers from Saddleback to developing countries. "I'll work with anyone to stop Aids - Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist," he says. "That really makes the fundamentalists mad."

Fresh blood

When I visit his office at Saddleback, David Chrzan, Warren's chief of staff, says that the media are looking to appoint Warren as the fundamentalist-in-chief. "But Rick would say outright that he's not the leader of the religious right. He doesn't want to be," Chrzan says. "The bottom line is that everyone needs a saviour - Republican, Democrat or Tea Partier.

“Over the past two or three decades, the church became so associated with the Republicans. Now, people are saying: 'Hey, we are for the church - we are not just two-issue people interested in homosexuality and abortion.'" In a 2005 survey of evangelical pastors, 51 per cent said that their congregation was predominantly conservative. By 2008, depressed by Bush's unpopularity in his final years, that figure had fallen to 33 per cent.

There is little evidence that evangelicals are any less agitated about abortion, stem-cell research or gay marriage. But since the recession, moral issues have dropped down the priority list. At Saddleback, too much government, not too little, is blamed for California's disastrous financial state. "Government got greedy," a pas­tor in Ray-Bans and a leather jacket tells me, "and started taxing business too much."

Most members seem to whistle the old tunes of the right even as they display new-found concern for Africa's dispossessed. Like the Tea Partiers, they are as dismissive of many long-serving Republicans as they are of Democrats and echo the call for "fresh blood" in Washington. "If Palin becomes a viable candidate, they might see her as one of their own - an evangelical person who might get to the White House," warns Scott Thumma of the Hartford Institute for Religion Research.

So progressives who predict the defanging of the Christian right should remember that we have been here before. Ten years ago, a former heavy drinker who had found Jesus ran for the presidency, promising a compassionate and consensual brand of evangelical politics.

We all know what happened next.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: 2012; bush; ca2010; christianvote; evangelicals; megachurch; palin; purposedriven; rickwarren; saddleback; sarahpalin
How can it be that we speak the same language, but most of them just don't understand our country at all? Or is it deliberate?
1 posted on 07/25/2010 11:49:52 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Is this commie on the Journ-O-List list?


2 posted on 07/26/2010 12:46:27 AM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

As to the article, I thought it was strange. Palin was in the title but was only mentioned by name *once*. It’s a hit piece, and rather behind the times.

The long-term trend is not towards large “mega-churches” but away from them. There are three current changes that are taking place.

1. The majority of small and mid-size churches, at least 80%, are declining.

2. Large churches are growing somewhat, but it is more due to slick services and marketing and is being funded by heavy reliance on debt.

3. The house movement is growing exponentially, and is mostly unseen. People drawn to house churches are looking for a sense of belonging and community, what they have not found in either their lives or in traditional “building” churches.

I am called to start a church. I used to dream of having a large church. I now realize that a church isn’t a building; it’s the people. And it wouldn’t have been mine to “have” - the church belongs to Jesus. And large churches don’t help build fellowship, they are ego-builders for the staff. So I’ve tossed every plan I had for a big building, and I’m even considering not having a building at all.

My advice to mega-churches: Get very serious about training your people. A church that is a true teaching church will survive the downsizing trend that is coming. Many churches will remain shallow, and will close their doors.


3 posted on 07/26/2010 12:51:54 AM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: kaehurowing
This is an English newspaper, but he might be, since Michael Tomasky of the London Guardian is a confirmed Journolist member.
4 posted on 07/26/2010 12:53:06 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Soapbox & Ballot Box or Ammo Box.)
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To: PastorBooks

IIRC, she’s Assembly of God, not an Evangelical. Cowboy Churches are a huge trend down here in the South, especially in Texas, but not limited to it.


5 posted on 07/26/2010 12:55:04 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Soapbox & Ballot Box or Ammo Box.)
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To: PastorBooks

Have you looked at metal buildings? They seem less expensive but sturdier than “conventional” stick built. Modular buildings are another option.


6 posted on 07/26/2010 12:56:37 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Soapbox & Ballot Box or Ammo Box.)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: 2ndDivisionVet

Such churches teach a supranational Christianity; that Christ is above all nations and thus Christianity can’t be branded to any particular Earthly constitutional construct.

I think they understand this country, but they’ll argue that Christ’s mission has a higher priority than country. Warren’s church is said to be veering dangerously close to a “social justice” type of ministry, yet he still angers folks left and right. As long as he does that, he may be doing something right.


8 posted on 07/26/2010 1:39:13 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Mike Mathis is my name,opinions are my own,subject to flaming when deserved!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Warren stopped being relevant when he used himself as a tool for Obama....


9 posted on 07/26/2010 1:40:52 AM PDT by freebilly (No wonder the left has a boner for Obama. There's CIALIS in soCIALISt....)
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To: PastorBooks
I believe that Yahweh works in cycles. We are born bald without teeth in diapers and we will die, bald, without teeth and in diapers. Summer, Fall, Winter, Spring.

The last church will look like the first church. It will meet in homes, be based in the Hebrew Biblical truths and have the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling clean holy vessels, so that the same power which killed Ananias and Sapphira, will be evident in this remnant church. That is the direction the Father is leading towards.

10 posted on 07/26/2010 2:20:44 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
When I visit his office at Saddleback, David Chrzan, Warren's chief of staff, says that the media are looking to appoint Warren as the fundamentalist-in-chief.

A wee bit of truth here...

The media and the left lumped all blacks individuals into a faceless group and appointed Jesse Jackson, the Black Caucus, etc, their mouthpiece. Now no conservative black voice will be tolerated. Any racial news will be framed by the NAACP and nobody else.

The media and the left lumped all women into a group and appointed the feminazis their mouthpiece. For years no conservative female voice would be heeded. All issues of gender were then framed by the feminists.

The media and the left lumped all muslim Americans into a group and appointed CAIR as the sole mouthpiece of muslims. Now no one but radical islamists who've learned to be politically savvy can be heard. When any islamic terrorist makes the news, CAIR is ALWAYS called in to discuss the issue, and it gets the job exclusively. No other muslims need apply.

The same goes for "Hispanics" , a group manufactured from a diverse field of individuals some citizens, some legal immigrants waiting for citizenship or seeking work, and some illegal, whose voices are all drowned out and replaced by the only voice the media will recognize- illegal immigrant advocates.

The media now seems to want to lump all Christians into this megachurch so the voice of American Christianity will be heard exclusively from Warren. No others need apply!

11 posted on 07/26/2010 3:16:40 AM PDT by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge)
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To: mdmathis6

The only things Warren is doing right are selling books, and feeding his congregation spiritual cotton candy. I despise him and those like him. Joel Osteen comes to mind.


12 posted on 07/26/2010 3:38:14 AM PDT by CalvaryJohn (What is keeping that damned asteroid?)
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To: ladyL; PastorBooks
Interesting article:

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=1100148

13 posted on 07/26/2010 4:44:44 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: CalvaryJohn

Oh I didn’t say I totally support him; the title of his Book...”The Purpose Driven Life” strikes me cold. A better book for him to have written might have had as its title, “The Christ Yoked Life”( as in “my yoke is easy, my burden is light”)


14 posted on 07/26/2010 4:56:13 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Mike Mathis is my name,opinions are my own,subject to flaming when deserved!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Assembly of God members are evangelical in their outlook and focus. And some of AOG churches are huge almost megachurch in their member ship as well.


15 posted on 07/26/2010 4:59:02 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Mike Mathis is my name,opinions are my own,subject to flaming when deserved!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

So, this is how lefties across the pond see Mr. Warren, and by association American evangelical Christians, and of course those nasty “fundamentalists”. Interesting. They really have no clue.


16 posted on 07/26/2010 5:13:52 AM PDT by FourPeas ("Barack Obama never misses an opportunity to jump to the wrong conclusion." -csmusaret)
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To: ladyL

A lot of big churches are going to small group services during the week that replace the functions of sunday school and the smaller social functions that sunday schools can provide. The churches are large enough that folks get lost in a crowd so they want to provide “a connection” so that needs can be met on an individual level.

The leaders of these groups get some training and are commissioned by the pastor and deacons and are “overseen” to make sure individual groups don’t go off on tangents and be undone by unorthodox teaching. Sometimes the church pastor has a message he is working on and he’ll suggest to the ‘cell leaders” passages of scripture to be studied prior to the “big message” onSunday when all the members gather.

This I think is what will be the model when big buildings and overt public worship starts to get attacked and taxed out of existence. Pastors and deacons will still have jobs to do in keeping the “smaller groups” together...like the apostles and the lesser disciples and later called teachers who would visit the early house churches to teach and to deal with spiritual issues that would arise in these churches.(The epistles give testimony to this). You had a “church” of some big city in the early days, but this church had many house groups spread out in the city obstensibly to mitigate the effects of persecution. There would be occaisional big gatherings and a visiting apostle or teacher would come to expound on the gospel as the spirit leads. The latest Letter or epistle might also be read and shared amongst all the groups in that city.

Churches need not have big imposing structures to be viable, they can be somewhat amorphous with the leadership being flexible in their operations. Will there be expressions of Holy Spirit power of the same strength as what was evident in the early church? The early church apostles had that power but not everyone who was saved had the Holy Spirit express himself thru one in that way. Individuals had specific gifts they were given, but not all healed, not all taught, not all prophesied. Many spoke and prayed in tongues but Paul had to warn them not to do so in a way that would bring confusion, but to keep it private unless there were translators who could translate what was being uttered. Above all, Paul preached Love, without which tongues and teachings would be nothing but “crashing cymbals”. I think if these “new churches” concentrate on love of God and Love of neighbor, the rest of what God will do to empower these churches will follow like “a mighty rushing wind” or a “still small voice”.


17 posted on 07/26/2010 5:35:57 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Mike Mathis is my name,opinions are my own,subject to flaming when deserved!)
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To: mdmathis6
I could write a book on Home churches. I have had a couple in my home not tied to a institution, just a start up fellowship for those looking for fellowship. My first attempt was extremely successful until I allowed a man/teacher to take over our group of thirty, move us back into a church and then ended up scattering everybody. Not a good finale. Second attempt, grew group into another nice size, but once again, out of left field, I got blindsided. Currently I have two Bible studies in my home which I hopefully have learned from past mistakes and will not be so trusting of all who attend. So I have started and nurtured two home churches which were wonderful until the wrong people became involved. I now see the need for “by invitation” which I hate but now know is necessary.

I have learned that if God chooses you to build a fellowship and someone else comes in with their own agenda, don't play Mr. Nice Guy. As I said I could write a book on what I learned.

18 posted on 07/26/2010 6:05:30 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Sarah would do well to stay away from Rick Warren, imho.


19 posted on 07/26/2010 6:15:52 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: PastorBooks

“a church isn’t a building; it’s the people”

Bingo.


20 posted on 07/26/2010 6:17:52 AM PDT by SharpRightTurn (White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: ladyL

“The last church will look like the first church. It will meet in homes”

I have no idea what the “last church” will be like. If it happens to be a house church, I think that would be fine. Certainly that is the way the church started, meeting in homes. However, since it was the custom for Christ to teach in synagogues I don’t think that God frowns on congregations owning a building either.


21 posted on 07/26/2010 6:22:31 AM PDT by SharpRightTurn (White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: PastorBooks
“. I now realize that a church isn’t a building; it’s the people.”

We repeat that exact phrase all the time at our meetings!!
We meet in a school building.
Relationships are key; it sometimes seems difficult in our transitory society....

22 posted on 07/26/2010 6:25:58 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (I aspire to a large carbon footprint; just like Al Gore's)
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To: ladyL

The danger of Home churches not sponsored by a larger church umbrella are what you just described. Wolves can creep in and without oversight from elder deacons and the pastor...boom the group is lost and people scatterred and disillusioned.

So do you answer to an elder board/pastor to keep you from going astray with your two groups? It can be easy to go astray and not know it! You mention the agendas of others, which trusted counscellors keeps a watch on your agenda? I’m not accusing or insinuating anything. The early house churches were self sufficient but were still answerable to the visiting apostles and recognized leaders of the day and some received, when necessary, rebukes and admonishments to discontinue practises which grieved the Lord.


23 posted on 07/26/2010 6:40:03 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Mike Mathis is my name,opinions are my own,subject to flaming when deserved!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I read an article about Cowboy Churches in “American Cowboy” recently. It was an excellent article - made me wish I was back in Texas, especially since it’s just as hot here in NC, now ;-). I think the concept makes very good sense. Jesus was from a hick town, as our deacon mentioned recently, and He was primarily addressing rural people.

We had a Cowboy Priest at my parish in San Antonio; he was from Nixon, iirc, over east a bit from SA. (When Yankees moved in, they’d be confused!)


24 posted on 07/26/2010 6:55:31 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("I hate other cultures. Everyone is rude and they never wash or use deodorant."~Anoreth)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Sarah Palin and Rick Warren are SO not the same. This journo is confused, big-time.


25 posted on 07/26/2010 7:46:30 AM PDT by bboop (We don't need no stinkin' VAT)
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To: PastorBooks

I attend one of the two largest churches in my county. One of the things that our pastoral staff from the head Pastor down have expounded upon is the need to grow smaller as we grow bigger. IOW, yes we have almost 500 people calling our church “home” but we also have a vibrant small group home Bible study program. These groups are on average about a dozen or so folks and most people I know are in one.

We also have a youth (13 to 24 y/o) group (www.generationchurch.org) that makes up about 1/5 of the overall church. Those kids know how to worship and they love it.


26 posted on 07/26/2010 8:59:40 AM PDT by Grunthor (My coffee creamer is fat free because I am not.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“IIRC, she’s Assembly of God, not an Evangelical.”

I’ve been in both churches over the years. I’ve never noticed a big difference.


27 posted on 07/26/2010 9:01:27 AM PDT by Grunthor (My coffee creamer is fat free because I am not.)
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To: F15Eagle
However, the term “evangelical” has been twisted, including by some leftist-leaning churches that are by far more “social gospel” rather than Gospel of Salvation in Christ.

The term "evangelical" is elastic enough to be useless.

28 posted on 07/26/2010 10:00:55 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: mdmathis6
the title of his Book...”The Purpose Driven Life” strikes me cold. A better book for him to have written might have had as its title, “The Christ Yoked Life”

The Gospel Driven Life.

29 posted on 07/26/2010 10:03:34 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: mdmathis6
Our fellowships consist of Messianic Israelites which is not to be confused with the Messianic Jewish movement. Because it is a cutting edge move of the Holy Spirit we are very loosely organized and have no “mother church.”

It is an amazing group of Believers that number about 250,000 globally but we have no Central base. All of the fellowships, and there are thousands, rely on the Bible and the Holy Spirit for our guidance and direction.

30 posted on 07/26/2010 12:08:16 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Nope. She attends a non-denominational Christian church. Interesting that when she was a little girl, her mom took her to mass at Catholic churches, but then her mom apparently converted to Pentecostal. Palin left the Pentecostal church years ago because she considered it too extreme for her beliefs.

- JP


31 posted on 07/26/2010 12:10:45 PM PDT by Josh Painter ("Every time a Democrat mocks Sarah Palin, an independent gets its wings." - JP)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Palin is Evangelical, Assembly of God is Evangelical, and Evangelical is good.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

32 posted on 07/26/2010 12:19:02 PM PDT by ansel12 (Mitt: "I was an independent during the time of Reagan-Bush. I'm not trying to return to Reagan-Bush")
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To: Josh Painter
Palin left the Pentecostal church years ago because she considered it too extreme for her beliefs.

I would like to see her statement of that about the extreme beliefs, in 2006 she was still communicating with her past Assembly of God Pastor, asking for religious advice.

33 posted on 07/26/2010 12:31:52 PM PDT by ansel12 (Mitt: "I was an independent during the time of Reagan-Bush. I'm not trying to return to Reagan-Bush")
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To: ladyL

“The Locusts have no king, yet they march out in orderly bands” Proverbs.

I suspect there are those within this movement you speak of that these groups revere, respect, and take spiritual guidance from...that’s the kind of check and balance I was talking about. I suspect also that the in terms of essential orthodoxy(which is to say “the faith that saves us”), the thumprints of this Messianic movement would match that with Baptists, or Assembly of God types, or even Lutheran Church Missouri Synod just to name a few evangelical organizations.

I do suspect that the time is coming for “large organizations” to grow larger by “growing smaller”, and that the Spirit has begun to quicken believers in the direction of increased obedience and repentance. One can almost hear Ezekiel prophesying over the dead bones again....

The enemies of Christ can attack large out in the open organizations but cannot root out entirely swarms of smaller church groups. Depending on ones view of end times eschatology, these groups may be operating right up until the revealing of “the son of perdition”.


34 posted on 07/26/2010 1:06:29 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Mike Mathis is my name,opinions are my own,subject to flaming when deserved!)
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To: ladyL
Our fellowships consist of Messianic Israelites

These guys?

35 posted on 07/26/2010 1:58:33 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: SoFloFreeper
Sarah would do well to stay away from Rick Warren, imho.

AMEN. I hope she keeps her distance.

36 posted on 07/26/2010 2:00:53 PM PDT by Finny ("Raise hell. Vote smart." -- Ted Nugent)
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To: Lee N. Field
Yes. The Messianic Israelite Alliance is the umbrella over the fellowships and sponsors conferences and support materials. As I said, because it is such a new movement by the Holy Spirit, everybody sort of “evolved” by His direction. Most fellowships are home based but there are a few that have the traditional “church” building. We are Sabbath keepers as was the first church, so we are more likely to have our worship service Friday evening or sometime Saturday. We keep Yahweh's holy Feasts and not Christmas or Easter. Other than that we adhere to all the books of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. My faith has grown deeper and my relationship with Yahweh more intimate. I even know His real name now and use it :) . Anyhow, most people try to dismiss these truths and shake their finger at me as a heretic but as Martin Luther listed 95 indictments against the Roman church, he missed that many more.

Yahshua kept the Sabbath and the Feasts, so we are trying to follow Him. May Yahweh bless all those who seek Him first with His Truths.

37 posted on 07/26/2010 4:08:22 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: PastorBooks
I am not a fan of Rick Warren or those in the mega-church industry. And certainly we do see a split in several mainline churches which I suspect will continue as long as there are not enough Christians who will stand against the homosexual agenda, abortion drive and the various ‘issues’ creating these splits. It sometimes appears to be a sifting..and I believe that perhaps God is drawing the line in the sand thru these ordeals.

Meanwhile just finding a local church to worship in has been an ordeal for many, much more so in these past years. You mentioned ‘House Churches’ and these go along pretty much unknown. But I recall some have saying that as the that time approaches the true church will go underground. Perhaps these ‘House Churches’ are the beginning.

The challenge has always been to ‘arm the saints’ but there are so few today with that ability to instruct as such. A small church in a village in Pa. gave me in six months time the most teaching and instruction, via the Pastor/Teacher than I had received in ten years! For that I grew to love Christ more and far better to uphold the faith to those whose intentions were to tear it down.

Now this Pastor could have easily filled stadiums, He was that good, and I asked him why he chose such a small church rather than preach and teach to the masses. He said, “ I need to know the condition of the flock Christ has given me to oversee, I need to know their condition, their growth, and understand what they are learning or not...that is my calling...to arm the saints...you cannot not do that well without also knowing them”.

Over the doorway as you leave this small church is a sign which reads...”You are now entering the Mission Field”. To see this on the way out of the church was a great reminder of where we are really stepping out into every day.

Thanks in advance for allowing me to share this...some would appreciate more than others I think.

CW

38 posted on 07/26/2010 5:15:00 PM PDT by caww
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To: F15Eagle
I think you are right F15Eagle....the term “evangelical” now includes many who adhere to the ‘social gospel’...as well those who get into great emotional frenzies. Finding a church which is not one or the other is difficult at best today....harder still is one that gives rich teaching and arms us for the battles we see escalating against Christianity. Once you've had great teaching and instruction so much out there seems shallow at best.
39 posted on 07/26/2010 5:23:50 PM PDT by caww
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To: ladyL
Anyhow, most people try to dismiss these truths and shake their finger at me as a heretic

Since you brought it up, Nicene Creed, yea or nay?

40 posted on 07/26/2010 7:54:42 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, one substance with the Father)
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To: ansel12

“I would like to see her statement of that about the extreme beliefs, in 2006 she was still communicating with her past Assembly of God Pastor, asking for religious advice.”

Is the Assembly of God Church “extreme” in your opinion?


41 posted on 07/26/2010 8:59:12 PM PDT by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis "Ya gotta saddle up your boys; Ya gotta draw a hard line")
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To: BnBlFlag

Read the posts a little more carefully.


42 posted on 07/26/2010 9:24:14 PM PDT by ansel12 (Mitt: "I was an independent during the time of Reagan-Bush. I'm not trying to return to Reagan-Bush")
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To: Lee N. Field

“I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church”

Up to this point I am in total agreement with the Nicene Creed. When it comes to defining the church, I part ways with traditional Christianity.


43 posted on 07/26/2010 9:40:58 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: ladyL
Up to this point I am in total agreement with the Nicene Creed. When it comes to defining the church, I part ways with traditional Christianity.

In what way?

44 posted on 07/28/2010 2:55:02 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Isaiah 27:1)
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To: Lee N. Field
I believe that the “church” actually originated at the foot of Mt. Sinai when Moses came down off the mountain with the two tablets containing the Ten Commandments. That group of called out ones, the Quahal became the Ekkelsia in the New Testament. They were the Israelites at the foot of Mr. Sinai. The Ten Commandments was the marriage Covenant which they accepted. Approximately 500 years later those people broke into 2 Kingdoms, the House of Judah and the House of Israel. This is historic fact. The house of Israel was later, through judgement dispersed in 721BC into the world, divorced by Yahweh.

The house of Judah stayed intact known as the Jews today. They are still intact and in Covenant today. Yahshua said He came only for the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24). The last 2000 years Yahshua has been gathering the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We are still the Quhal or ekkelsia.

Jer 31:31 says that the New Covenant will be made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Doesn't say anything about a “church.” So if you are a New Covenant believer you must be either from the house of Judah or the house of Israel. This is the BIBLICAL PLAN OF THE FATHER, NOT THE DOCTRINES AND TRADITIONS OF MEN.

Get your Bible out cause everything I said has Scripture to back it up. Study to show thy self approved, a workman rightly dividing the Word of God.

45 posted on 07/29/2010 12:19:48 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: piasa

Excellent point!

I don’t want to be put in a box and labeled. Resistance to that nonsense is not futile!

Thank you!


46 posted on 07/29/2010 12:26:11 AM PDT by dixiechick2000 (Remember November...I can see it from my house!)
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To: ladyL
By blood descent?

This sounds a bit like British Israelism, without the "British".

47 posted on 07/29/2010 10:50:36 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Isaiah 27:1)
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To: Lee N. Field

Galatians 3:29 If you be in Christ Jesus you are of Abraham’s seed. Seed is sperm in the Greek.


48 posted on 08/03/2010 4:58:49 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: ladyL
Then it is racial? Having saving faith in Christ is proof that one has Israelitish DNA? And anybody who doesn't is without hope?

Don't be surprised that folks regard this as heretical.

"do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham."

49 posted on 08/03/2010 7:25:05 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: Lee N. Field
One thing I have learned not to do is argue with Scripture.

Mat 15:24 “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”

Luke 1:32 “The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, AND HE WILL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOREVER...”

Hebrews 2:16 “For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.”

I could give many more scriptures to show you Yahweh's Biblical plan starting from Genesis thru Revelation. I could show you how Abraham's seed was scattered into all the nations. Look at Gen. 35:9-12 where Yahweh told Jacob he was going to make his descendants into A NATION AND A COMPANY OF NATIONS.

I'm going to stop now. You've thrown your stone at me but I will bless you and ask the Father to take the scales off your eyes to see His truths He is revealing to those today who have ears to hear and eyes to see. The Roman religion is dead the Hebrew Faith is alive and prospering, but it is a remnant faith that started with Yahshua and will end with Yahshua. There will be twelve gates to enter into the new Jerusalem and over each gate the name of a tribe. There is no church gate...which gate will you walk through. I am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham. Abraham's children are red and yellow, black and white. We come from all nations but we are Israelites returning back to the Kingdom through the Law of the New Covenant written on our hearts. Jer.31:31

50 posted on 08/03/2010 11:25:01 AM PDT by ladyL
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