The Blessed Trinity {Ecumenical}

New Advent ^ | 14-Aug-2010 | Newadvetn

[Cronos]

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together.

[Cronos]

Cyc brought up a good topic for a serious debate. Please let's focus on this topic alone.

[Cronos]

CYC: I believe what the Scriptures teach and I do not believe the Scriptures support the trinity doctrine.

Thank you boatbums for the suggestion to have a separate thread.

[Cronos]

From newadvent (the same source as the article)

First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures.

Now in the non-Trinitarian category, we can place the levels as: 1. Does not believe Jesus is / was God

1. That he was just a prophet (Muslim inconsistent belief since they believe in the virgin birth)
2. that Jesus was a mn who got "possessed" by the Holy Spirit who left Him when He was dying (again repeated in the Koran)
2. DOES believe Jesus is God, but does not hold to the idea that there is a Triune God (God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three "persons" i.e. homousia with One divine Nature

1. That all are the same God seen incorectly by humans (like the Oneness Pentecostals)
2. That Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and there are only 2 "persons" of God (Binitarianism)3. That Jesus is one of 2 or more gods.

[Cronos]

ping

[HarleyD]

It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason it has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today.

Any group that denies the Trinity cannot be considered Christian, let alone Protestant. As your article points out, the scriptures are filled with evidence. To deny the Trinity is to not understand the Word of God.

[Cronos]

I agree, but there are many non-Trinitarian freepers who basically want to ask the question “Why?” and I think they deserve a place where we can explain why we believe this concept. This can be a very direct thread focused on just why we believe in the Trinity as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all being ONE God. And they can explain why they do not. Both sides can be civil and I believe (as a Trinitarian) that we can demonstrate adequately well, so that those confused can arrive at a conclusion

[Olog-hai]

The New Advent doctrine leaves a lot to be desired.

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First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures

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The words translated "Holy Spirit" appear in both Old and New Testaments, as "ruakh haQodesh" (Hebrew and Aramaic) and "hagios pneumos" (Greek). Both mean "holy breath", and whereas God's messengers (angels or often Himself) act and speak, the rare appearances of the "holy spirit" are without word. Jesus' descriptions of the "holy spirit" are in the context of being a part of his composition.

Now in the non-Trinitarian category, we can place the levels as:

1. Does not believe Jesus is / was God
   1. That he was just a prophet (Muslim inconsistent belief since they believe in the virgin birth)
   2. that Jesus was a mn who got "possessed" by the Holy Spirit who left Him when He was dying (again repeated in the Koran)
   3. DOES believe Jesus is God, but does not hold to the idea that there is a Triune God (God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three "persons" i.e. homousia with One divine Nature

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All this supposition contradicts a verse from Psalm 82 (verse 6) that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. For reinforcement of those verses, see Deuteronomy 14:1. There is also Romans 8:29, where Jesus is described as "the firstborn among many brethren". How many sons does the Father intend to bring to birth, then? The agent of change is cited as the Holy Spirit, which is a part of God (see John 4:24).

[Claud]

“I and the Father are one”

A wealth of Trinitarian doctrine is contained in this one sentence: two persons, one being.

[Claud]

“I and the Father are one”

A wealth of Trinitarian doctrine is contained in this one sentence: two persons, one being.

[Mr. Lucky]

Thanks for the ping. Company is here for the weekend which puts me on the sidelines.

[CTrent1564]

Olog-hai:

Christ is the first-born of many brethren relates to his Human nature, he is the first-born of a new humanity that has been saved by God’s grace, just as the first man Adam caused the downfall of humanity, the second-Adam is the “perfect Man”, i.e. the Divine Person Jesus Christ as a perfect human nature and thus all of us baptized into the Trinity are now the adopted sons and daughters of God adn thus brothers of CHrist. All of us who are baptized into the Trinity and believe in the Holy Trinity and all that has been revealed by Christ are born anew via baptisim which cleanses original sin and all sin, makes us a member of God’s Family, thus brothers and sisters of Chrsit and members of Christ Body the Church.

In summary, the goal of God’s plan of salvation (cf Roman 8: 29-30) is aimed at conforming all who come to know the One True God and believe in him into the image of Christ and thus it is aimed at the final glory of all who put their faith in Christ.

[webboy45]

The “triune” trinity is non-Biblical. In fact Jesus prayed that his desciples would be one even and he and his Father are one.

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” (John 17:22)

It’s clear that there are three personages, but Eusibius said that it was Constantine (a pagan) who came up the “triune” notion.

[Salvation]

Other threads bearing on the Blessed Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit:

The Blessed Trinity {Ecumenical}
A Mystery for Eternity (Reflection on the Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity)
On the Trinity (Angelus Address from 5/30/2010)
Mystery of the Trinity
The Trinity: More Than Just Doctrine
Origen on the Trinity: A Man Ahead of His Time
Why Mormon Baptism Is Invalid: Sect´s Concept of the Trinity Differs from Christian Notion
Radio Replies First Volume - The Holy Trinity
‘We live to love and be loved,’ teaches Pope while reflecting on Trinity (absolutely beautiful!)

Deathbed Request: 'Tell me About the Trinity’
Catholic Doctrine on the Holy Trinity
The Most Holy Trinity
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Trinity [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Holy Trinity (excerpt from the Light of Faith by St. Thomas Aquinas)
The Concept of the Most Holy Trinity - The Relationship between the Three Persons in One God
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 3: God and the Holy Trinity
Sheed on the Trinity (Catholic Caucus)
The Father as the Source of the Whole Trinity - Greek and Latin Traditions About the Filioque
Trinity Facts

The Real Trinity
We believe in one only God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Brief Reflections on the Trinity, the Canon of Scripture, and the Protestant idea of Sola Scriptura
Why Do We Believe in the Trinity?
The Holy Trinity
Trinity Sunday (and the Trinity season)
Trinitarian Mystery
HaSheeloosh HaKadosh: The Holy Trinity
MARY’S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TRINITY
The Divine Trinity

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much, dear brother in Christ, for posting this new thread to discuss the Trinity!

My favorite Trinity passages from Scripture with emphasis:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. – Isaiah 9:6

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19

In my view, the problem arises whenever we mere mortals attempt to apply the Law of Identity (A=A and not B) to God. Indeed, the LDS doctrine does precisely that and the Trinity is rejected by that religion. And others reject the Trinity on those very logical grounds.

But man is not the measure of God!

The Laws of Logic are part of the creation, not a property or restriction on the Creator of them. We must lay them aside in our meditations on the Names of God.

And again, the Law of Identity does not apply to God.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. - John 14:7-11

And again,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:1-8

And again,

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. –I Corinthians 12:3

God's Name is I AM.

[Alamo-Girl]

Oops, I omitted a vital revelation of the Trinity in Revelation 5 which follows the revelation in Chapter 1.

Namely, that the Father is on the throne (Rev 4) and the Son emerges from His midst or bosom and the Spirit extends through Him into the world.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. - Revelation 5:1-6

[trisham]

Six words. They seem so simple.

[Tennessee Nana]

Yes as a Christian I believe in the Trinity...

“God in Three Persons Holy Trinity”

From the Hymn Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty...

God the Father, God the Son (the Word, Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit...

[Tennessee Nana]

Whoops I messed up the words of a beautiful Hymn

“God in Three Persons BLESSED Trinity”

From the Hymn Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty...

[trisham]

Thank you, Alamo-Girl!

[trisham]

Thank you, Salvation!