Posted on 08/15/2010 2:19:34 PM PDT by NYer
This isn't about picking on Baptists or game shows, but more about wondering if certain things simply shouldn't be combined (like leotards and liturgy!) This video, by the way, is from the First Baptist Church in Hammond, Indiana, where the pastor is Jack Schaap. (Ht: Mel, who wonders, "What next, Pin the Tail on the Donkey?" Probably not—insurance likely won't cover such a thing).
We Catholics have also encountered lame ideas such as this.
I went to an Alliance church service yesterday — family related. There was no worship — just people observing.
Sad.
There’s a whole subject we could write a book about, namely, how the atmosphere in churches have changed over the years.
Once upon a time, everyone dressed up to go to church. Everyone wore suits and dresses. Now, hardly anyone dresses up. Jeans and T-shirts are common. Baggy jeans where the people in front of you bend over and expose the great divide are common. Tennis shorts and flip flops are common. Songs sung to a rap melody in a Catholic church has been heard.
And in Catholic churches specifically, the congregation used to wait respectfully for the priest and altar boys to exit after the mass before leaving. Now everyone dashes for the door ahead of the priest and altar boys carrying the cross.
All of this shows a lack of respect and bad manners. Then again, it’s better these people be in church than doing God knows what else at that hour of the day. Maybe some of it will sink in while they still attend church services.
And in Catholic churches specifically, the congregation used to wait respectfully for the priest and altar boys to exit after the mass before leaving. Now everyone dashes for the door ahead of the priest and altar boys carrying the cross.
_______________________________
I’m not sure how “new” that behavior is.
I am 54 years old, so it was a long time ago.
One of the parishioners when I was a kid, always was the first one out at communion. She, however, arrived before everyone else, during communion at the previous mass, so she did hear a whole mass, although not in the typical order.
Agreed, and it is not for the better.
Time was when attending a church service was an experience of genuine reverence. As you mentioned, you'd dress for the occasion, you'd enjoy the power of the church organ and celebrate the things that have drawn Christians together for two thousand years in a reverent experience.
Now, the guy sitting next to me this morning in a t-shirt, shorts and open-toed sandals (and I attend a Bible-believing, supposedly conservative church) may or may not have bothered to take a shower before he left home.
Meanwhile, the 'worship team' gathers in the front and the guy playing the bongos needs an extra minute to get set up before the drummer starts the beat for some pablum contemporary song I've never heard before and will probably never sing again (at least not if I can help it).
You wonder where the reverence has gone when your music director's idea of an 'old song' is one that was written before the turn of the 21st Century.
You wonder why the hymnal sits in front of you gathering dust. You wonder if there's anyone on the church worship committee who can spell the word 'liturgy'.
It's sad.
Too much “touchy feely”, not enough “salvation” in most churches these days.
I think it shows how liberalism has infected every area of society. Even “conservative” institutions such as our mainstream religions.
All of here above a certain age know that it would have been unthinkable to wear your tennis outfit to church in 1960. Times have changed. If you are liberal you probably think many of these changes are for the better. If you are conservative you probably hate some of those changes.
I think it shows how liberalism has infected every area of society. Even “conservative” institutions such as our mainstream religions.
All of here above a certain age know that it would have been unthinkable to wear your tennis outfit to church in 1960. Times have changed. If you are liberal you probably think many of these changes are for the better. If you are conservative you probably hate some of those changes.
I was born in 1951. I was raised Catholic and remember my Dad went crazy the first time a guitar was brought into church. Down hill from there. Communion in the hand absolutely disgusted me.
I agree about the guitar mafia (my name for them.) Whatever happened to organ music and hymns sung in Latin?
Many, many people react strongly to contemporary Christian music. I am one of them.
Much of the contemporary music comes directly form the Psalms, it doesn’t just appear from the void. Much of it is quite good and is memorable.
There are large numbers of people who listen exclusively to Contemporary Christian music on the radio and their kids dance to it at their parties. It seems to me as if it is playing a larger role in many peoples lives these days than the older music.
This may come as a surprise but there are Catholic Churches where this is not the case. I am a Roman Catholic but practice my faith in one of the Eastern (Maronite) Catholic Churches. In our parish, the parishioners dress for Mass. Men wear suits or sports jackets. Women wear stylish dresses or pant suits. The children area also well dressed.
By your freeper name, I am guessing that you reside in or near San Diego, CA. It might interest you to visit St. Ephrem's Maronite Catholic Church which is located in El Cajon.
Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.
While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:
"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).
Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.
To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:
The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).
A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. Like the Chaldeans, the Maronites retain Aramaic for the Consecration. It is as close as one comes to being at the Last Supper.
Should you desire to visit this parish, plan on visiting at least 3 times. The first visit may be disorienting. Though fully Catholic, the liturgy celebrated reflects its Eastern heritage. As my pastor has often said: "Same faith, different flavor".
All of this shows a lack of respect and bad manners.
I totally agree. Thank God our Church offers other 'flavors' ;-)
>>Whatever happened to organ music and hymns sung in Latin?<<
I’ll step in and brag!
This is our Latin Youth Choir. Including my girls.
They sometimes sing with our Men’s Chant Choir. It’s Heaven on Earth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y20dW7HA2bo
Ping to my post #14. Please freepmail me if you would like more information on the Eastern Catholic Churches.
Good Friday procession.
Blessing of the Pets.
Our parishioners have been told in no uncertain tones that they are not to leave until after the priest. Those who insist on it sit in the cry room where they can sneak out but God sees them :-D
That’s fantastic!
I wish we had a blessing of the pets. Our pastor did bless our pup, but my home parish back in Ohio did it like yours does.
After several years of being away from the Church, I returned last year. I am 76 and was raised in a strict Catholic family. I know the Catholic Church is currently amending the entire Mass with an eye towards going back to previous Pope John 23rd’s Vatican 2 Changes. I am somewhat shut-in and unable to attend Mass on a regular basis, so I watch the 8:00 A.M. Mass broadcast from the EWTN Network every day. They have a strong ongoing effort to use the organ and a great choir with many of the the Mass hymns being sung in Latin. The Ordinary of the Mass the Franciscan Priests use will be familiar to the “old-timers” of my era, and there is no similarity to the post Vatican 2 years. i.e. “No guitars”. I also am offended by the habit of Communicants “receiving” Communion “in the hand” and I’m sure this procedure is rapidly changing back to the person receiving The Eucharist will do so, on his knees and receiving it on the tongue.
I also have noticed many women in the congregation are going back to using a lace veil.... I like that too. A sign of a bit of Humility for a few minutes once a week never hurt anyone.
There are many interesting threads here on FR which are Catholic oriented too.
Oh. My. Gosh. I have never seen anything like this. It’s more game show than worship. Their pastor was channeling Pat Sajak. This should have been taking place in the church hall or auditorium.
I also noticed something very important: only men were selected to try for the big prizes. Only men.
I am just stunned really. I’ve never seen anything approaching this during a Catholic Mass. All those pastors and people who criticize Catholic worship and beliefs think this is okay?
This is the fruit of an edited, defaced, and altered bible. Saints preserve us!
I think the real problem is that everything, including religion has become “all about me”. So many religious services have become religiotainment. People whine if they the temperature is a little warm or cool or if the music was off-key or the priest or pastor gave a lousy sermon or homily.
So much of religion has become “what can God do for me”, not “what can I do for God.” JFK had the right sentiment because it really isn’t about what God can do for you but you can do for your God to fulfill His plan.
Around here there is no one who can play the organ. There is only one woman in all our parish who does a passable job and she only plays once a month.
Congratulations on your journey back to the church. You won’t be sorry.
Do you have a ministry to homebound people in your parish that brings the Eucharist to those that are shut in?
You might enjoy that weekly visit?
Also does your city bus have a handicapped service that could pick you up and take you to church — or are you still driving?
My dad has glaucoma and it seemed it was in his 70s that he had to give up driving.
It is a major problem for churches with organs. My mom plays but with her arthritis there are times when playing is impossible. However she has recruited several young people and she is teaching them to play. They all now play passably and a couple are truly good at it.
I wish other churches would follow her example and pass on skills rather then watching them die out. There are young people that are ready to learn if someone will teach them but they are not going to come forward on their own. They have to be found.
I’m unclear how any judgment can be made of the appropriateness of this without any context at all? In light of what they may be discussing or what they may have been anticipating this might be reasonable and expected. I’ve been in various church meetings that are very informal - where people sitting in the congregation are routinely addressed by name for example - and it seemed not weird or unspiritual or offensive at all.
Informal doesn’t necessarily = offensive to God.
But of course, this is NYC.
Hi, again........
My “homebound” status is somewhat medical in nature due to the need for an oxygen concentrator, but a more limiting reason is the financial limitations of getting to the Church. Our Church, St. Stephen’s is about 15 miles one way and my budget is restrictive. The Pastor and his able assistant are able to stop by my house once a month for Reonciliation and Communion.
Regarding a “city bus”..... we have no “city bus” since we have no “city”. Yes, I still drive when I have to with no restrictions....so sorry to hear about your Dad....
I live about 30 miles south of Savannah, GA, in what could best be termed “the boonies”.. to illustrate.. I like to tell people that “Yes we do have a library here” “But it’s closed this week, since someone has the book checked out”.
You get the idea....
All the best to your Dad
Like "liturgical dance", which is neither liturgical nor dance.
LOL I can guarantee this isn't a parish where Msgr Joe Schaedel of Indianapolis says Mass.
I read through all the posts up to this and find talk about ritual but no talk of the saving grace of Jesus. Seems churches today work so hard at either performing old rituals that have nothing to do with salvation or try to become a modern day country club.
Jesus never concerned himself much with ritual did he. Once a person believes that Jesus is only source of salvation and their is no other way to the father then through him we probably should leave individual ways to worship up to the individual not?
And I also agree that way too many churches focus on entertainment (both country club and ritual) then on the spreading of the Gospel.
Thank you for your comments and welcome to Free republic.
God bless
***Time was when attending a church service was an experience of genuine reverence. As you mentioned, you’d dress for the occasion,***
Yes, there was a time when you put on your best for God. But it was also used as a way to tell who was well off and who was not well to do.
Every year just before Easter people would buy new clothes for church, then walk up and down the street to show off their new duds. SEE ME and my new clothes! Thus came about the EASTER PARADE.
Many churches did away with these “dress codes” years ago.
***Oh. My. Gosh. I have never seen anything like this. It’s more game show than worship.***
Was this a Sunday worship service or a Wednesday prayer service?
I’ve seen such games on Wednesday but NEVER Sunday.
Which is interesting because one of the Church's greatest Christmas Hymns, Silent Night, was written on guitar.
bttt
It is not the Church's responsibility for training a new generation of musicians, it is the parent's responsibility to train and raise up their children to carry on ministries in the Church.
Agreed. God is interested in the heart, not what the outside pretends to be. The Pharisees paraded their "Sunday's Best" but their hearts couldn't have been further from God. On the other hand, Peter and John, smelling like fish, left their nets and followed. Didn't read anything about them saying, "Hold on, let me go get dressed up for you Lord."
If you refuse to train the next generation then the skills die.
None of these parents knew their kids wanted to play the organ. The kids didn't know that they wanted to play sacred music on the organ. Yet now they play. And they love it. A church in the next town has offered to pay the tuition to a fine music school for one of the young men if he will pledge to be their minister of music.
I didn't say the Church doesn't...I said it is not the Church's responsibility. Hugging the downtrodden is a ministry. Praying and fasting for people in need is a ministry. Giving of one's clothes to someone in need is ministry. I teach these to my children. I open the Scriptures to see what my responsibility is in rearing them. Then we show up to a Church and say, "Here I am with my full quiver, we are here to serve." The Church's responsibility is to provide guidance to a place where we can serve. Create a ministry, if none exists, to match the gifts of everyone in the congregation. And of the utmost importance, the local Body leadership should teach Doctrine to maintain purity and for reproduction of leadership.
When you go down through the list of qualifications for Church local leadership in Timothy and Titus, you see two main things. The first is the character qualities of the leadership. The last is the ability to teach, in the context of Doctrine. For it is common that poor character corrupts good Doctrine eventually, and poor Doctrine corrupts good character eventually. Nowhere does it mention that the leadership must also teach the pipe organ to the next generation. It doesn't mean they can't...it means they are not required.
If then there no longer remains anyone who can play the pipe organ, then we worship God with whatever instruments and talents we have in the congregation. Thus we have the story of how Silent Night was born on the guitar. :-)
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