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The article does not qualify for a caucus because it mentions the beliefs of non-members.
Skip to comments.[Reformed/Non-Catholic Caucus] Does Purgatory Deny the Sufficiency of Christ's Sacrifice?
Posted on 08/18/2010 9:52:35 AM PDT by TheBattman
Does Purgatory Deny the Sufficiency of Christ's Sacrifice?
by: Matt Slick
According to the Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47,
"If you die in the love of God but possess any stains of sin, such stains are cleansed away in a purifying process called Purgatory. These stains of sin are primarily the temporal punishment due to venial or mortal sins already forgiven but for which sufficient penance was not done during your lifetime."
The Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that Purgatory is for "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
Among the many doctrines that Catholicism claims to be derived through Sacred Tradition, Purgatory is one of the most interesting and puzzling, particularly to a Protestant. In light of the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith, how is it possible that an afterlife cleansing through punishment is necessary for a Christian who has trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins? Wasn't Jesus' punishment for our transgressions sufficient? Didn't He take our place in that He suffered our death? It would seem that the words of Christ, "It is finished," (John 19:30) do not mean that the cleansing of our souls was completed on the cross.
Of course, Roman Catholic doctrine states that eternal life is bestowed upon the one who receives baptism (Catechism, par. 1265 - 1266, 1992). It is the stains of the sins committed after baptism and not removed through penance, good works, prayers, the Mass, etc., that are removed in the fires of Purgatory (Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47).
In light of the doctrine of justification by faith (Rom. 5:1; Rom. 4:5; Rom. 9:30; Acts 13:39; Gal. 2:16), where Jesus bore all of our sins, Purgatory would seem to have no theologically justifiable right to exist. But the Bible alone is not appealed to by Catholic theologians in support of Purgatory. By far, the main support for Purgatory is found in the Catholic doctrine of Sacred Tradition. Nevertheless, what does the Bible say about justification, punishment, and our sins? What is justification by faith?
To justify means acquit, declare righteous, the opposite of condemn. It means to be not guilty of breaking the Law and to be deemed righteous by the standard of the Law.
God gave the Law, i.e, the Ten Commandments. The Law is a reflection of God's character and it is a perfect standard of righteousness which no one can keep. Since no one is able to keep God's Law, no one can be justified by the Law (Rom. 3:20). There is, therefore, none righteous (Rom. 3:10-12). This is the problem of all people. We have all broken God's Law and are in need of justification, of being declared righteous in God's sight. This can only be done through the Messiah, our sin-bearer.
Jesus is the one who took our place on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21), and turned away the wrath of God from us (Rom. 5:9) by being a propitiation (1 John 2:2) that turned away the wrath of God. He was punished in our place. Therefore, Jesus was our substitution. The righteous work of Christ is imputed to the believer by grace (Titus 3:7) and through faith (Rom. 5:1). This justification is a legal action on the part of God reckoning the believer as having satisfied the Law -- all of the Law.
It necessarily follows that to be justified in God's eyes, is to be fully justified. It is not part of the Law that must be satisfied, but all of it. Perfection is the standard. Likewise, it is not part of our sins that were borne by Christ, but all of them. This justification includes all of the sins of the believer (past, present, and future) or else we could not be justified. What does the Catholic Catechism Say?
The Catholic Catechism (paragraphs 1990-1992) says,
"Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals"...."Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ..." and "...justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy."
Of particular interest is the reference that "justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith." There are many verses in the Bible that deal with baptism and putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:1-11). This paper is not intended to discuss the nature of baptism. Nevertheless, I strongly affirm that baptism is a covenant sign for the believer who is already justified by faith and for the children of believers who are under the covenant headship of the family. Baptism is not what justifies a person. Rather,
* Justification is a gift by His grace through Jesus (Rom. 3:24) * Justification is by grace (Titus 3:7) * Justification is by faith (Rom. 3:28; 5:1; Gal. 3:24) * Justification is by Jesus' blood (Rom. 5:9). * Justification is in the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 6:11). * Justification is not equated with baptism, but with grace, faith, and the blood of Jesus.
Jesus said, "It is finished," (John 19:30)
Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, tetelestai. In ancient Greek papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word tetelestai was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away God's wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished.
Yet, the doctrine of Purgatory, in effect, is saying that we must suffer in Purgatory for sins not covered by baptism and not covered by the cross. It is to say that the work of Christ is not finished and that there are things we must do to complete the sacrificial, cleansing work of Christ. This amounts to earning heaven by our good works, albeit a work of suffering. Additionally, the doctrine of Purgatory implies that a person must atone for his own sins. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him. This is called supererogation.
When Jesus said, "It is finished," all that was necessary in the atonement was concluded and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christ's work through our suffering. Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but it contradicts God's Word.
Purgatory: better than Hell, not as good as Limbo.
There is NO WAY that this qualifies as a caucus.
Have the rules changed? Can a caucus thread be started to criticize explicitly the teaching of a group not included in the caucus?
Shouldn’t you be playing in your own backyard?
Yes, it does so signify, and no warrant for it can be found in the Holy Scriptures of Christendom. But it did provide the basis for selling indulgences and for instilling in the minds of searchers the pernicious doctrine that salvation can be had only through the minisrations of the Mother Church and its priestly caste, for which also there is no basis in the Scriptures.
Also, it seems that Matt Slick head of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry pushes comic books by [REDACTED NAME OF HATE MONGER] in the CARM newsletter, so perhaps this source should be banned.
Nope, this doesn't come close to meeting the criteria for a caucus.
Hey slow down now. We don't want to rush Limbo!
(Tiptoes out of the room)
That is not your call.
Dude, I’m not a Catholic, but the Catholics have a right to be all over this thread. Catholocism is specifically mentioned. “Caucus” my behind!
I’m not a Catholic either, but I’d love to see any kind of scriptural justification for the teaching of purgatory. From my perspective, I fail to see how purgatory can do anything BUT instill the idea that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was insufficient.
Dude, if the gentleman has a gripe he should take it up with the RM, not on the thread. Rules.
The Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that Purgatory is for "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."This article clearing quotes the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So how can you leave Catholics out of the discussion by making it a non-Catholic caucus?
A thread posted by a non-Catholic that is dedicated to discussing Roman Catholicism isn’t caucus material, as you are about to find out in spades.
Not so. See for instance:
If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge will turn you over to the constable, and the constable throw you in into prison. I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." (Luke 12:58-59)
"...for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that there is, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, the work of each one will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)
Finally: you appear to believe in sola scriptura - the idea that authority comes from scripture. This is false. For as Christ said to Peter:
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Here we see that the authority of the Church explicitly comes from Christ. Scripture receives its authority from the Church, not the other way round.
Hope this was helpful.
I tried to post in one of the Catholic areas and was told that it was a closed discussion. I’m tired of coming to FR and seeing about the twentieth post on lists all Catholics need to know - (like the list of lists), and LDS propaganda, etc. There are other forums (forae?) on the web. I don’t think it is fair to criticize someone for trying to start a forum to question the dogma being espoused elsewhere on FR.
Purgatory, Utah, that is
One doesn't need to be Catholic to figure this out.
You know, the Catholics on here post all kinds of junk that in no way "qualifies" as being a caucus post, yet it happens anywise.
Just grow a thicker skin, and get on with your life, eh?
Then post an example, just one. Can you cite a SINGLE Catholic Caucus thread that specifically discusses Protestant beliefs that Catholics believe are in error?
This thread is ABOUT Catholic beliefs.
If you could accept the answer that Scripture provides to this question you would immediately abandon the cult of Rome. I suspect, however, that if we gave you the answer, a rebuttal from Rome would be used to deny its truthfulness. Therein lies the problem. Rome or Scripture?
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christs afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church"
What did St Paul mean by this? It can only be a reference to that part of Christ's passion which can indeed be lacking - that part where we join ourselves to it, become one with it - or where we fail to do so.
Most people die neither fully connected to God, not fully at war with Him. Purgatory is simply the passage of the soul to full communion with God: the changing of an impure, damaged soul into a pure, whole, sinless one.
That passage, that process will be hard, indeed many of us will find it a terrible ordeal. But it will not last for ever, and then we shall be safe with Him, the true author of our being.
¨If I knew God I´d be Him.¨
You guys are as hell bent on stamping out dissent as the Spanish Inquisition. I guess Romanists can’t deny their true papal colors. Unfortunately, you can only ping moderators on a forum in America rather than burn heretics. Now suck on that egg and whine some more.
**The Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that Purgatory is for “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.” **
How can this be a non-Catholic forum? It’s quotes the Catholic Catechism.
At the least it might be Ecumenical — no antagonism.
JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.....GEESH.
**Also, it seems that Matt Slick head of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry pushes comic books by [REDACTED NAME OF HATE MONGER] in the CARM newsletter, so perhaps this source should be banned**
Good point. Thanks.
Perhaps the entire thread should be pulled.
How is it any different than Catholic Caucus threads discussing predestination, or once saved always saved? Those are beliefs held by non RCC's.
If some non-Catholics want to discuss Catholic doctrine, it’s not cricket but I’m fine with it. Maybe one day they’ll want to quit shadow boxing and find out what the doctrine really is.
Your speculation may work for auto mechanics, but the Scriptures do not support the idea that this "...passage, that process will be hard,..." Too much of bogus Catholic doctrine is concocted just this way, using the logic of home-grown philosophy to provided answers, rather than the clear statements of Scripture. Go read the Book, then dump Rome. Or, even better, do it the other way round.
“You guys are as hell bent on stamping out dissent as the Spanish Inquisition.”
LOL, the irony.
Can you direct me to an example?
I fully agree that such threads SHOULD NOT have caucus status, can you provide a link to one?
"Today's Catholic"? That would be me.
Thanks for the invite............don't mind if I do.
You can take down the "caucus" heading now.
All you have to do is EXPLAIN how one gets into Heaven, which is PURE, if one dies with SINS on their soul. Answer that question, please.
I have never suggested that Protestants don’t have every right to deny Church teachings.
**Of course, Roman Catholic doctrine states that eternal life is bestowed upon the one who receives baptism (Catechism, par. 1265 - 1266, 1992). It is the stains of the sins committed after baptism and not removed through penance, good works, prayers, the Mass, etc., that are removed in the fires of Purgatory (Handbook for Today’s Catholic, page 47). **
Another reason to make this an open thread. There is an error in that statement if I’m not mistaken.
How can one explain, as you ask for, when the Religious thread rules prevent a Catholic from replying on this thread since the OP has made it a NON-Catholic caucus thread?
What about Abraham's bosom? There is no mention of sins being cleansed there but the dead who would be redeemed were there.
Ah.....let me go get my NON-Catholic husband to ask you all the same question that NONE of you can answer.
Both of these passages speak of a process (something that happens and then ends.) In Luke it is portrayed as an imprisonment, in Corinthians as a testing and an ordeal.
I'm curious. What do you believe those passages are about if they are not about the purgation of a man's sins?
Not interested in playing that game.
Tell you what... how about Rome AND Scripture? Let's go to Scripture to find what is the pillar and ground of the truth... is it Scripture or something else?
1 Tim 3:15 (KJV) 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
I’m sure it’s written somewhere, but how could anyone really know?
How about just being 100% honest, and saying...’I don’t really know’...?
You do believe that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully human, do you not? Please show me where that doctrine/teaching appears in God's Word.
I'll see you that, and raise you one. How is it possible that a cleansing through punishment for sins during this life is necessary or even possible for a Christian who has "trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins"?
After all, there's nothing special about "afterlife punishment" versus "during life punishment". If one impugns Christ's sacrifice, so does the other.
Scripture is very clear:
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. -- Hebrews 12:3-11
(Incidentally, as I usually do, I'm quoting from a Protestant translation, the NKJV.)
Seems straightforward. Scripture insists that Christians will be chastised for their sins, and in fact says that those who aren't chastised are "not sons, but bastards". (That's what the Greek really says.)
The whole Protestant error regarding purgatory is slapped down by this one passage of Scripture. If no chastisement for sin is possible for Christians, the passage makes no sense. If chastisement in the afterlife impugns the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice, chastisement in this life impugns it as well.