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LDS people value the Bible (Mormon - Open)
BYU Daily Universe ^ | Aug. 18, 2010 | David Mortimer

Posted on 08/18/2010 4:57:29 PM PDT by Colofornian

To begin his series titled “Myths and Realities about Mormonism,” Robert L. Millet, professor of ancient scripture and former dean of Religious Education at BYU, addressed the myth that Latter-day Saints disrespect, reject and contradict the Holy Bible.

After quoting extensively from an April 2007 general conference talk by Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve, titled “The Miracle of the Holy Bible,” Millet explained that part of the public’s misconceptions about the LDS view of the Bible might be a result of church members spending too little time with it.

“The fact of the matter is that the Holy Bible is deeply significant in our family of scripture,” he said. “Frankly, I don’t love one member of the family more than any other.”

Millet next addressed the eighth Article of Faith, a common passage church members use to describe that they believe in the Bible “as far as it is translated correctly.” He acknowledged that though translation is a difficult process and errors are a concern, he believes there is an added layer of meaning to the verse.

“I’m convinced that Joseph Smith, as much as anything, meant transmission — that’s moving from one generation to the next,” he said.

Millet added that conversion is not entirely dependent on scripture, though it is an important element in the conversion process.

“A person doesn’t become fully a Christian by reading, nor do they become a Christian by having a certain vocabulary,” he said. “I don’t think salvation comes by proper vocabulary.”

To wrap up his discussion on translation, Millet quoted President George Q. Cannon, a counselor to four early presidents of the Church: “The clause in the Articles of Faith regarding mistakes in the translation of the Bible was never intended to encourage us to spend our time in searching out and studying the errors, but to emphasize the idea that it is the truth and the truth only that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts, no matter where it is found.”

Next, Millet addressed how The Book of Mormon and other modern revelation establish the truth of the Bible. He cited Doctrine and Covenants 20:5-11, which recounts Joseph Smith’s efforts to bring forth The Book of Mormon, “which was given by inspiration … proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true.”

“What holy scriptures would have been around in 1830?” Millet asked. “The Bible.”

This idea of establishing truth, Millet added, is evident in the number of biblical allusions made by those who wrote The Book of Mormon.

“If you and I read The Book of Mormon carefully,” he said, “we will see that The Book of Mormon writers presupposed that we had a Bible.”

By a careful, systematic study of both the Old and New Testaments, Millet said church members can use them to clarify passages in modern scripture. One example he gave was 3 Nephi 23:14, which states that Jesus “expounded all the scriptures in one.” To understand this phrase better, Millet directed the audience to Luke 24:27, in which the resurrected Savior walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus.

Without revealing His identity, the verse reads, “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”

Millet acknowledged that many Latter-day Saints frequently do the opposite: use modern-day scripture to clarify the Bible. He exhorted them to apply that idea in reverse, as well.

“I promise you there are scores and hundreds of [examples],” he said. “That’s just as it should be. The greatest commentary on scripture is scripture, and it needs to work in both directions.”

To conclude his remarks, Millet quoted Joseph Smith: “He that can mark the power of omnipotence inscribed upon the heavens can also see God’s own handwriting in the sacred volume [the Bible]. And he who reads it oftenest will like it the best.”

Millet added his testimony of the truthfulness of the Bible and its importance in the LDS canon.

“The Bible is a part of the family of holy scripture,” he said. “Never, never, never let us treat it as an ugly stepsister.”


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: beck; bible; byu; glennbeck; inman; lds; mormon
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From the article: “The Bible is a part of the family of holy scripture,” he said. “Never, never, never let us treat it as an ugly stepsister.”

Guess what? A speaker wouldn't even need to say this unless, indeed, some (or more than some) Mormons were widely guilty of treating the Bible like an "ugly stepsister."

From the article: Millet acknowledged that many Latter-day Saints frequently do the opposite: use modern-day scripture to clarify the Bible. He exhorted them to apply that idea in reverse, as well. “I promise you there are scores and hundreds of [examples],” he said. “That’s just as it should be. The greatest commentary on scripture is scripture, and it needs to work in both directions.”

Well, Millet has at least been partially listening to Evangelicals, who've been telling Mormons for years that the Bible standard for judging new revelations is to compare the new up against the existing standard of revelation. Per the Bible, that is "nobility": Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)

IOW, the Bereans compared Paul's revelations to the Old Testament. Those considering Mormon "revelations" should always compare them to the Bible.

And "Millet acknowledged that many Latter-day Saints frequently do the opposite". IOW, Mormons have been guilty of using Joseph Smith alone as a filter for everything they believe...They read the Bible thru Smith eyes in the JST, the D&C, the Book of Abraham, and the Book of Mormon. Millet says the Bible clarifies everything else. (Well, at least he's saying the Bible also clarifies other claims), which goes at least further than most Mormons toward the right direction.

Nobility. Finally, at least a Mormon authority is willing to partially put forth this character claim. Unfortunately, it doesn't really "touch" Mormon doctrine at all.

Mormonism doesn't derive much of its teachings from the Bible (More on that next two posts)

1 posted on 08/18/2010 4:57:33 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
Mormonism doesn't derive a whole lot of its essential teachings from the Bible. Its primary "trumpcard" sources are usually derived in the following order:
(1) Doctrine & Covenants;
(2) Book of Mormon;
(3) Living Lds "prophets" and "general authorities";
(4) Dead Lds "prophets" and "general authorities" -- like apostles who have the presumptive initiative to write a book called "Mormon Doctrine";
(5) Book of Abraham;
(6) Smith's rewrite of the Bible, called the JST.

In Mormonism, the Bible ranks last. Of the essential doctrines Christianity teaches, the only ones Mormonism comes close to are:
(a) Christ's sinlesslessness [David A. Christensen of the Salt Lake Institute of Religion is especially starting to emphasize this well]
(b) Christ's bodily resurrection [Even then, Mormons don't celebrate this with a special day like Christians do...if the Sabbath happens to fall on an Easter Sunday, there might be some recognition; otherwise, no]
(c) Christ's second coming [Even here, Lds apostle Bruce McConkie taught that Christ would re-institute polygamy when he returned]

Otherwise...note the following as to what "trumps" what as their trustworthy source of believing what they believe:

* Grace? (That's redefined as "works" & "worthiness" by the Book of Mormon -- what man does to force or prompt God's favor)
* Gods plural? (That's derived from Doctrine & Covenants & the Book of Abraham; all other so-called "gods" are not known by the true God...see Isaiah 43, 44, 45, 46 and especially Galatians 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.
* God's unity? (Oh, sure, the Lds at times mention the "godhead" to sound like they focus on that; but they give more credence to the unity of the "First Presidency" -- the top three hierarchical leaders in the church -- than they do to God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit)
* God's tri-unity? (They try to conquer & divide on this one; but this is a "false teaching" per Mormonism)
* Sin as human depravity? (Redefined as "falling upward" to become a god -- BoM)
* The church falling into complete apostasy? (Not found in the Bible; Jesus and Paul both prophesied such in Matt. 16:18 & Eph. 3:21; taught in the BoM; D&C & non-canonical Mormon teachings)
* Jesus Christ as a "dead prophet" that needed to be replaced by a new prophet? (The opposite is taught in Hebrews 1:1-2; Joseph Smith bragged he was the only man who knew how to keep a church together; he specifically dissed Jesus and the apostle Paul for not being to able to accomplish that in his eyes)
* A final judgment that includes eternal hell? (Although the BoM at times mentions an everlasting hell, these passages are ignored as the D&C refines "damnation" to be a temporary "damned up" situation...spirit prison in Mormonism is temporary)
* Virgin birth? (Brigham Young & Bruce McConkie taught this was a "literal paternity" McConkie's exact words...and Young said the Father made Mary pregnant "rather than letting any other man do it"...though many Mormons do indeed disagree with Young & McConkie...they've never gone far enough...they don't openly & publicly teach these two taught false doctrine on this)
* Christ's deity? (Lds apostle McConkie in Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation” IOW...the Mormon jesus wasn't God from eternity past; but was a "being" who needed to be saved)
* The cross of Christ? (Widely & historically regarded by Mormon leadership as a "pagan" symbol; no crosses ever don any Mormon church facility; Mormon missionaries don't preach the cross of Christ)
* A pre-existence? (Although some biblical passages reference God's foreknowledge of people like Jeremiah and Paul, they take that out of context & their teaching on a so-called illogical pre-existence comes from the D&C)

2 posted on 08/18/2010 4:59:57 PM PDT by Colofornian (If we could "CTR" we wouldn't need a Savior. [See 1 Corinthians 1:30])
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To: Colofornian

Pod people value the Bible ...

But I’m not sure what they use it for...


3 posted on 08/18/2010 5:00:26 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian

“we will see that The Book of Mormon writers presupposed that we had a Bible.”
_________________________________________

You dont say ???

Now begorra ...

why do you suppose that would be ???

Since there were no Bibles to be had in 600 BC


4 posted on 08/18/2010 5:03:21 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian

I’ll believe Mormon’s value the Bible when they listen to the part where Jesus said there is no Marriage in heaven.

When they admit that their celestial marriage rites are anti-scriptural and that Joseph Smith was no prophet, that’s when I’ll start to believe they care what the Bible says.


5 posted on 08/18/2010 5:05:02 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: All
Part II of how Mormonism doesn't derive much of what it teaches from the Bible (without badly redefining it, that is).

I've saved two aspects -- Christ's atoning death -- and "faith" -- because of how Mormon leaders nuance these that takes a little more explanation to see the distinctions:

Christ's atoning death?

This is indeed the heart of it. When Christ said from the cross, "It is finished" He indeed used the common phrase of His time for the completion of an economic transaction: "Paid in full"

That is in such stark contrast to what Lds apostle Jeffrey Holland highlighted in an article he wrote on the atonement:

From that article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church... [Source -- especially if you want to see this graph in entire context: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)]

Per Mormonism -- this means that if you join the "wrong" church, your "reprieve of" your "own sins" isn't going to come from your pardon-Governing god. (More "conditions").

This Mormon "apostle" claims: they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they...receive...confirmation into Christ's church... (meaning the Mormon church!)

So the church then -- in this case the Mormon church -- becomes the "substitutionary replacement" as the sin-bearer of your personal sins vs. Jesus Christ. What blasphemy about Christ! What blasphemy about the atonement!

What is it about Lds general authorities that they think they can toss around Christ's blood as to who it will reprieve and who it won't? I mean that's what the whole Lds false historical doctrine of blood atonement was all about! Why don't grassroots Mormons ever hold their leaders accountable for obvious past (& present) false doctrines? (Even things they patently know are false!)

Faith? (Oh sure, Mormonism requires it like a commandment laundry list, but they don't emphasize that faith is a gift of God; plus they include the covenant of faith to include the institution of the Mormon church...which means if you don't have a covenant with the Mormon church & Mormon temple...you're not exercising "true faith" in their opinion)

Example: Marion G. Romney, Mitt's father's cousin. Marion Romney, one of the top three hierarchical leaders in the Mormon church in the 60s, likewise usurped Jesus' own words in John 14:6 when he said:

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119)]

Utter idolatry! Jesus Christ alone qualifies as the object of faith -- He Himself constitute "the Way, the truth, and the life. NO man comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

The Lds church, thru its teachings by the likes of...
Marion Romney,
Brigham Young (blood atonement)
and Lds "apostle" Holland,
has and is engaging in open idolatry in erecting substitutes in favor of the blood of Christ as the Living Way.

I call upon this false apostle (Holland) to repent, and for Mormon grassroots to find the backbone to realize God holds us accountable for replacing Christ and His blood with a church structure. The same "woe" Jesus gives in Luke 11 is appropriate to leaders of the Mormon church: "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." (Luke 11:52)

This is a serious warning Christ gave. Heed it as such.

6 posted on 08/18/2010 5:06:25 PM PDT by Colofornian (If we could "CTR" we wouldn't need a Savior. [See 1 Corinthians 1:30])
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To: Colofornian

“LDS people value the Bible”....... Isn’t that special?.. <<- persona: church lady


7 posted on 08/18/2010 5:07:51 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: Tennessee Nana
I “value” my car too!

I'm happy they “value” the Bible but according to them it is CORRUPT and had to be rewritten. The Book of Mormon and

The term derives from the Book of Mormon, a sacred text published in 1830 regarded by the faith as a supplemental Testament to the Bible. Though dictated by Joseph Smith, Jr., the text claims to be an ancient chronicle of a fallen and lost indigenous American nation, compiled by the prophet–warrior Mormon and his son Moroni, the last of his Nephite people.

(Hardly Christian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon

These are Mormon beliefs
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, known as the Mormons, teaches that God the father used to be a man on another planet, that he became a God by following the laws and ordinances of that God on that planet and came to this world with his wife (she became a goddess), and that they produce a spirit offspring in heaven. These spirit offspring, which includes Jesus, the devil, and you and me, are all brothers and sisters born in the preexistence. The preexistence spirits come down and inhabit babies at the time of birth and their memories of the preexistence are lost at the time. Furthermore, faithful Mormons, who pay a full 10% tithe of their income to the Mormon church through Mormon temples, have the potential of becoming gods of their own planets and are then able to start the procedure over again.

Is it Christian? No.
If you were to go to any Christian bookstore and look in the non-Christian cult section you will see numerous books on Mormonism that document Mormon beliefs as aberrant and un-Biblical. The Mormon Church is not considered a Christian church.

This is not simply an opinion that they are false; it is a fact that they teach aberrant and unchristian theology. In fact, Jesus warned us about such groups when he said in Matthew 24:24 that in the last days many false Christs and false prophets will arise and deceive many. Mormonism is exactly that, a manifestation of a false prophet: Joseph Smith, who taught all these things.

The Bible does not teach that God came from another planet, or that he has a goddess wife, or that we can become gods. In fact, the Bible clearly and definitely contradicts those teachings. But, the Mormon Church responds by saying that the Bible is not really trustworthy, that the true faith was lost, and that its leader, Joseph Smith, restored the so-called “true” Christian faith: god from another world, becoming gods, goddess mother, etc. Of course, the Mormon Church's claim is not true.

One question to ask the Mormon Church as a whole is why is it that it does not appoint a representative to publicly debate and answer the challenges of competent Christians who know not only the Bible, but what Mormonism teaches? Why is it that the Mormon Church refuses to have open duologue and appoint a representative who would attempt to defend the LDS teachings from the Bible? Why does it refuse to do this? I believe it is because it doesn't want to be made to look bad.

Mormon Beliefs documented
Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers:

Book of Mormon
The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461.)
Devil, the
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
God
God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans...” (D&C 130:22).
God, becoming a god
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them,” (DC 132:20).
God, many gods
There are many gods (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
“And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light,” (Book of Abraham 4:3).
God, mother goddess
There is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
God, Trinity
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348).
Holy Ghost, the
The Holy Ghost is a male personage (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118; Journal of Discources, vol. 5, p. 179).
Jesus
“Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
“Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ...” (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).
Joseph Smith
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).
Pre-existence
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
Salvation
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency and to dethrone god,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
“The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).
“As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements — ‘obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,’” (Articles of Faith, p. 79).
“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts,” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
“We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” (2 Nephi 25:23).
Trinity, the
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

http://www.carm.org/mormon-beliefs

The Pearl of Great Price is another distaction to Christnisty.

Mormon Scriptures: The Pearl of Great Price
The Pearl of Great Price contains the book of Moses, the book of Abraham, the Prophet Joseph Smith‘s inspired translation of Matthew chapter 24, and some writings of the Prophet Joseph.

The book of Moses is a small excerpt from Joseph Smith’s inspired translation of the Bible.

(YES, Joseph Smith has his OWN version of the Bible!)

It is a more complete record of Moses’s writings at the beginning of the book of Genesis in the Old Testament - ACCORDING TO THE MORMON WEBSITE. It contains many doctrines and teachings that were lost from the Bible and gives additional information about the plan of salvation, the creation of the earth, and the Lord’s dealings with Adam and Enoch.

http://www.mormonbeliefs.org/mormon_beliefs/open-scripture/mormon-scriptures-the-pearl-of-great-price

No Mormonism is not Christian. ALl you have to do is go to their own website and see the problems.

Yes, Mormons might “VALUE” the Bible but they disregard it's TEACHINGS for rewritten teachings that contradict ad disagree with the Bible.

8 posted on 08/18/2010 5:11:58 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Colofornian

Wonder what they think on Kolob. And when is the next spaceship to Kolob. I wanna’ be on it.


9 posted on 08/18/2010 5:14:08 PM PDT by laweeks
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To: Colofornian

He started the conversation with “Frankly” and that, 95% of the time, implies deceit.

No reason to argue with me, it’s a fact. Whenever that phrase is used their is deceit coming from the person using it and they generally like to play as if they are some sort of superior intellect.

I’ll read this later.


10 posted on 08/18/2010 5:23:25 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Colofornian

And just think . . . when you die, you will atone for your sins in front of Joseph Smith, Jr., and Christ, who are equal in the Mormon Church. They’ll be sitting next to each other. No, really!


11 posted on 08/18/2010 5:28:41 PM PDT by laweeks
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To: laweeks
Hey, if you're a male and when you die, you get a PLANET full of VIRGINS!

Doesn't the remind you of Islam?

When a MALE dies and is a Muslim, they go to paradise and get all the VIRGINS they want.

Notice the clever wordsmithing, Mormons “value” the Bible. Sure but they DISAGREE with the BIBLE and created their own religion. It's not Christian. No matter how you want to believe that Mormonism is Christian, it is not. All you have to do is look at THEIR website.

The cute use of the word “value” highlights how deceptive Mormonism is even when “reaching out” for approval. They don't see it. They see “common ground” that they personally DO NOT see as the root of their beliefs.

Mormon Beliefs documented
Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers:

Book of Mormon

The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461.)

Devil

The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192.)

Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)

God

God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans...” (D&C 130:22).

God, becoming a god

After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).

“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them,” (DC 132:20).

God, many gods

There are many gods (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).

“And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light,” (Book of Abraham 4:3).

God, mother goddess

There is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).

God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).

God, Trinity

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

Heaven

There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348).

Holy Ghost, the

The Holy Ghost is a male personage (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118; Journal of Discources, vol. 5, p. 179).

Jesus

“Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

“Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ...” (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).

Joseph Smith

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).

Pre-existence

We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).

The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).

The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).

Salvation

“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).

A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency and to dethrone god,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).

Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).

There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
“The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).

“As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements — ‘obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,’” (Articles of Faith, p. 79).

“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts,” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).

“We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” (2 Nephi 25:23).

Trinity, the

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

http://www.carm.org/mormon-beliefs

It just goes on and on and on.

Mormonism has nothing in common with Bible based Christianity. Mormonism is that of another gospel trying to appear "Christian" and miserably failing.

12 posted on 08/18/2010 5:50:02 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Colofornian
LDS people value the Bible

.....so much that they add a bunch more to it.

13 posted on 08/18/2010 6:00:37 PM PDT by Graybeard58 (Nobody reads tag lines.)
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To: laweeks
They’ll be sitting next to each other. No, really!

When Jesus plainly told His disciples that it wasn't up to Him who would sit by Him but that was God the Father who would choose.

14 posted on 08/18/2010 6:05:52 PM PDT by Graybeard58 (Nobody reads tag lines.)
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To: Graybeard58

“When Jesus plainly told His disciples that it wasn’t up to Him who would sit by Him but that was God the Father who would choose.”

Oh, I missed that! I clearly read that Joseph Smith, Jr., WILL be sitting in judgement next to Christ when we die. That’s in the Mormon religion . . . not mine.


15 posted on 08/18/2010 6:11:07 PM PDT by laweeks
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To: Colofornian
Mormons have been guilty of using Joseph Smith alone as a filter for everything they believe...

Just like many Christians use Paul alone as a filter.

Mormonism doesn't derive much of its teachings from the Bible

Neither does Christianity. Mormonism is to Christianity, what Christianity is to Judaism. Two false interpretations of the real thing.

16 posted on 08/18/2010 6:16:58 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
Neither does Christianity. Mormonism is to Christianity, what Christianity is to Judaism. Two false interpretations of the real thing.

Spot on...no Paul, no Christianity, just another failed Jewish Messiah....magritte
17 posted on 08/18/2010 6:28:58 PM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: Colofornian

How do you value a book you claim is not translated correctly?


18 posted on 08/18/2010 7:54:26 PM PDT by svcw (Everyday the enemy tries to offer you an apple, when God has already given us an orchard.)
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To: Colofornian
Millet next addressed the eighth Article of Faith, a common passage church members use to describe that they believe in the Bible “as far as it is translated correctly.” He acknowledged that though translation is a difficult process and errors are a concern, he believes there is an added layer of meaning to the verse.

In the REAL world it is called SPIN!


And old concept; going WAY back:

"Did GOD really say...?"

19 posted on 08/18/2010 7:55:28 PM PDT by Elsie
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To: blasater1960
Just like many Christians use Paul alone as a filter.

Source?

20 posted on 08/18/2010 7:56:06 PM PDT by svcw (Everyday the enemy tries to offer you an apple, when God has already given us an orchard.)
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To: Colofornian
Mormonism doesn't derive much of its teachings from the Bible

Or even the Book of MORMON.

For that matter; one cannot find, in ANY of the MORMON 'scriptures', the things that are done in the Temples!

21 posted on 08/18/2010 7:57:08 PM PDT by Elsie
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To: Colofornian
THIS Millet???



 
 
 
Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59            "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16            "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

22 posted on 08/18/2010 7:58:15 PM PDT by Elsie
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To: Colofornian
 
Your list may be a bit confusing.
 
Here is a SIMPLER way to understand MORMONism:


In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.


1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

 


 


23 posted on 08/18/2010 7:59:59 PM PDT by Elsie
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To: nmh
 
Yes, Mormons might “VALUE” the Bible but they disregard it's TEACHINGS for rewritten teachings that contradict ad disagree with the Bible.
 
Surely NOT!!!

 


 1 Timothy 3:2-3
 2.  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
 3.  not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
 
 
1 Timothy 3:12
   A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
 
 
 Titus 1:6
   An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.




 
BEHOLD!!!!  The Restorative Power  of the Book of Mormon!!
 



 
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 2
 
  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
 

 TRUTH IGNORED

Smith, Young, Taylor, Pratt, Snow, Kimball, Woodruff ...

24 posted on 08/18/2010 8:01:43 PM PDT by Elsie
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To: laweeks
 
Oh, I missed that! I clearly read that Joseph Smith, Jr., WILL be sitting in judgement next to Christ when we die. That’s in the Mormon religion . . . not mine.
 
Yup; it appears that some high ranking MORMONs tend to agree!!

 


 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
 
 
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
 - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
 - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
 
 

25 posted on 08/18/2010 8:04:04 PM PDT by Elsie
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To: magritte
 
Spot on...no Paul, no Christianity, just another failed Jewish Messiah....magritte
 
That Paul sure got around; didn't he!
 

John 6

28. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29. Jesus answered,
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


26 posted on 08/18/2010 8:05:39 PM PDT by Elsie
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To: Elsie

C’mon Elsie...you know a bit more about early Church history than that...magritte


27 posted on 08/18/2010 8:08:35 PM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: blasater1960
Just like many Christians use Paul alone as a filter.

Argument from silence. No proof offered. Just conjecture, in which you ignore even what Jesus said that has impacted those Christians (let alone the original disciples like Peter...author of two books of the NT; John, 5 books; Luke, 2 books; James; Matthew; Mark).

Neither does Christianity. Mormonism is to Christianity, what Christianity is to Judaism. Two false interpretations of the real thing.

Well, Yeshua is the real deal.

"It is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." (Lev. 17:11)...so, you imply in other places that Ps. 49 indicates no man can ransom his brother, yet the blood of a lamb is of more import the blood of the designated Lamb of God?

Messianic Judaism simply proclaims "nothing other than what was foretold by the prophets and by Moses: that the Messiah must suffer, and that as the first to rise from the dead, he would announce the dawn to Israel and the Gentiles" (Acts 26:22-23, NEB)

[Notice how in contrast to all the OT passages that reference Judaism to becoming a missionary world-wide religion that would include Gentiles, it has become largely dormant in that vein -- provided you rule out Messianic Judaism, that is]

Aside from Isaiah 53 about the Suffering Messiah, we have Dan. 9:26 where the Jewish Scriptures teach mashiach yicarate" -- "the Messiah shall be cut off". [Phillip Goble, p. 6, Everything You Need to Know to Grow a Messianic Synagogue, William Carey library, 1974]

Acts 1 mentions the risen Jesus appearing to 120 brethren -- orthodox Jews. Were they lying? What about the 500 orthodox Jews claiming to have seen Yeshua at one time (1 Cor. 15:6)?

No wonder 3,000 Jews responded to the apostles' message on the first day out of preaching (Acts 2:41).

As Phillip Goble put it in his book (p. 9): ...the crucial issue between Messianic Judaism and any other sort of Judaism centers on the hope of the resurrection of the dead. The only question is whether there is such a hope and whether that hope has been realized in the historical resurrection of Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

Job 19:25-26: For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand upon the earth at last, and after my skin has been destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see my God."

56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." 57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:56-58)

So who do you say this Jesus was?

28 posted on 08/18/2010 8:54:00 PM PDT by Colofornian (If we could "CTR" we wouldn't need a Savior. [See 1 Corinthians 1:30])
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To: svcw
Just like many Christians use Paul alone as a filter. Source?

Pauline Christianity

29 posted on 08/18/2010 10:47:04 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: Colofornian
indeed, some (or more than some) Mormons were widely guilty of treating the Bible like an "ugly stepsister."

Typically I refrain from responding on these daily anti-mormon threads. But in this case I will, because I agree with the statement you have made here.

But it is true. Many LDS look at the Bible as an afterthought, if at all. Those are the Mormons that I call Mormon Mormons (yes double) as opposed to LDS or just Mormon.

Yes there are Christian Mormons too (not all Mormons are Christians...just like not all Christians are Christians) but that's another debate I'm not getting into either. Just adding it to my personal list of Mormon classifications for reference.

30 posted on 08/18/2010 10:58:11 PM PDT by Domandred (Fdisk, format, and reinstall the entire .gov system.)
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To: Colofornian; All
Argument from silence. No proof offered.

Come on, the majority of Christians in the USA take their walking papers from Paul. Paul is who has shaped Christianity from the time of Rome until today. Paul abandoned the law, abandoned circumcision, abandoned the Sabbath, abandoned Kashrut....And this the chruch teaches today.

Paul the REAL founder of Christianity

"It is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." (Lev. 17:11)

See, this is a classic case of building doctrine around one out of context....half of a verse. Lev 17:10-14, IN CONTEXT says do not eat blood! It is not to be used as a food. No blood sausage..No blood pudding..No eating your steak rare. Why? because blood is for atonement on the alter. It doesnt say that blood is the ONLY means of atonement and blood atonement was for UNintentional sins anyway. Only a few intentional sins were to be covered by blood, cheating your neighbor, bearing false witness and a couple of others.

Rabbi Blumenthal: The Scriptures explicitly state that the forgiveness of sin is achieved through sincere repentance. This teaching is repeated many times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures in a clear and unambiguous manner (Deuteronomy 30:1-10, Ezekiel 18:21-23,27,28,31,32,33:11,14-16,19, Isaiah 1:16-18, 55:7, Hosea 14:2-10, Jonah 3:10, Micah 6:7,8, Psalm 51:19)10. These passages directly address the issue of forgiveness from sin, yet they make no mention of a blood offering. Some of these passages11 actually preclude the requirement of a blood offering as a necessary component in the process of forgiveness from sin. Yet on the basis of the misinterpretation of one solitary verse (Leviticus 17:11)12 from a passage that does not directly address the issue of forgiveness from sin at all, Christianity teaches that repentance cannot achieve atonement without a blood offering!

yet the blood of a lamb is of more import the blood of the designated Lamb of God?

Jesus wasnt a real lamb...he was a human being, 100%god and 100%man, a god-man. A)G-d forbids human sacrifice and B) the Tanakh (OT) NEVER says the messiah will be a god-man hybrid demigod.

In Deuteronomy, God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him!

Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [Deuteronomy 12:30-31]

In Jeremiah, God tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept to Him, that it did not even come into His mind!

Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Eternal, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but The Valley of Slaughter. [Jeremiah 19:4-6]

We see the same thing in Psalm 106 and in Ezekiel 16:

Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. [Psalm 106:37-38]

Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter? [Ezekiel 16:20]

Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? Micah 6:7

And yet we are to then turn around and believe that God changed His mind, and required human sacrifice, and then it was the sacrifice of His own human son that God wanted? After telling the Jews to stay away from pagan practices, and pagan beliefs, God then changes His mind and says, "Okay, now go ahead and believe in a human sacrifice, just as these very pagans believe?"

Notice how in contrast to all the OT passages that reference Judaism to becoming a missionary world-wide religion that would include Gentiles, it has become largely dormant in that vein --

Yes, of course and all these passages are messianic...in the messianic era. When we enter that era, the Jews will be the light unto the nations and:

And many peoples(Gentiles) shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths," for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3)

The gentiles will go to Jerusalem....for out of Zion shall go forth the LAW...not Grace?

And Israel will follow the Law too:

And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. (Ezekiel 11:19-20)

My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. (Ezekiel 37:24)

And the gentiles will regret all they have been taught:

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Aside from Isaiah 53 about the Suffering Messiah, we have Dan. 9:26 where the Jewish Scriptures teach mashiach yicarate" -- "the Messiah shall be cut off".

Isaiah 53 is about Israel, the Jewish people suffering. Throughout Isaiah, Israel, Jacob, Zion....are named by Isaiah as the servant. You cant shoehorn Jesus into that role. Daniel 9, when read in CONTEXT is a wicked messiah who is cut-off. Never in scripture is a righteous person ever cut-off.

Acts 1 mentions the risen Jesus appearing to 120 brethren -- orthodox Jews. Were they lying? What about the 500 orthodox Jews claiming to have seen Yeshua at one time (1 Cor. 15:6)? No wonder 3,000 Jews responded to the apostles' message on the first day out of preaching (Acts 2:41).

Those things are irrelevant. So, is turning water into wine and walking on water. Why? Because Jesus didnt fulfill the requirements of The Messiah. Is there world peace? Universal knowlege of G-d? A 3rd Temple? Restored sacrifices? Why are sacrfices returning if Jesus was the once for all sacrfice? The lost ribes returned? The exile complete? NO. And there are no do-overs. Bar Kochba was closer than Jesus to meeting the requirements and he missed by a mile. Maybe Bar Kochba will return and finish the job? No.

As Phillip Goble put it in his book (p. 9): ...the crucial issue between Messianic Judaism and any other sort of Judaism centers on the hope of the resurrection of the dead. The only question is whether there is such a hope and whether that hope has been realized in the historical resurrection of Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

Goble doesnt know what he is talking about. Jews,have always believed in the resurrection. At least the pharisee's, which overtime have become todays Orthodox.

So who do you say this Jesus was?

Not Mashiach ben David. Not by a long shot. He is a creation of Paul. An unrecognizable Grecco-Roman hybrid god-man.

31 posted on 08/19/2010 12:19:21 AM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960

If Christians realized the truth of Paulism and all its fabrications, they would return to “original” like I did...magritte


32 posted on 08/19/2010 5:29:44 AM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: magritte
If Christians realized the truth of Paulism and all its fabrications, they would return to “original” like I did...magritte

NOW we are getting somewhere!

33 posted on 08/19/2010 5:33:29 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: magritte
The B o M is not original anything but fiction.
34 posted on 08/19/2010 5:56:17 AM PDT by svcw (Everyday the enemy tries to offer you an apple, when God has already given us an orchard.)
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To: svcw

Agreed on the B o M...like the “New Testament”, it’s “based on a true story,” but is full of distortion and outright lies that make them false religions...magritte


35 posted on 08/19/2010 6:19:25 AM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: magritte
Mormonism is to Christianity, what Christianity is to Judaism....no Paul, no Christianity

Paul pointed to the Messiah. Joseph Smith pointed to himself.

Christians don't sing "Praise to Paul".

36 posted on 08/19/2010 7:16:55 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Hey Glenn Beck: call Todd Friel!!!)
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To: magritte
Mormonism is to Christianity, what Christianity is to Judaism....no Paul, no Christianity

Paul pointed to the Messiah. Joseph Smith pointed to himself.

Christians don't sing "Praise to Paul".

37 posted on 08/19/2010 7:17:04 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Hey Glenn Beck: call Todd Friel!!!)
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To: magritte
they would return to “original” like I did...magritte

And, what do YOU claim is the "original".

38 posted on 08/19/2010 7:46:10 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (BARF of the YEAR: Obama "We are God's partners in matters of life and death,")
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To: svcw; All

There are probably some of my fellow LDS Christians that personally give one scripture source more weight than another. I never really asked them. Given proper interpretation though they are all equally good and Holy.

I can speak for myself though that I love the way we have an ever repeating 4 year cycle in Sunday School.

1 - Old Testament
2 - New Testament
3 - Book of Mormon
4 - Doctrine and Covenants

Then back to 1 again of course. As you can see, we spend 2 out of 4 years on the Holy Bible.


39 posted on 08/19/2010 8:05:42 AM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: greyfoxx39

Judaism, of course...or in my case, as a Gentile, Noahidism...G-d gave us a great chance and the final word a long time ago...no need to muck it up with the pale, distorted reflection of Christianity...a good example is “original sin”...unheard of in Jewish thought, a contrived concept by Paul and the early Christians to convince Gentiles of the importance of Jesus...there are many more examples like this...it’s all out there to find...magritte


40 posted on 08/19/2010 8:22:35 AM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: T Minus Four

Very few Christians have the background, or the inclination, to study the roots of Christianity and the role of Paul...they look at what is presented to them in their churches and accept it...Joseph Smith is a modern-day Paul...we are fortunate enough to have a much more literate society that’s able to discern his falsehoods...magritte


41 posted on 08/19/2010 8:29:43 AM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: T Minus Four
 
Christians don't sing "Praise to Paul".
 
Click it!



 
 
Praise to the Man!
 
 
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.
 
 

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again.
 
Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with
Gods
, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

42 posted on 08/19/2010 9:16:41 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: Paragon Defender
There are probably some of my fellow LDS Christians that personally give one scripture source more weight than another.

Jumbo Shrimp

Military Intelligence

...

43 posted on 08/19/2010 9:18:08 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: Paragon Defender
Given proper interpretation though they are all equally good and Holy.

...and so forth.

44 posted on 08/19/2010 9:19:14 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: Paragon Defender
Given proper interpretation though they are all equally good and Holy.

(Mormon spin)

45 posted on 08/19/2010 9:19:33 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: magritte
M you are so funny, trying to distort your lds affiliation.
46 posted on 08/19/2010 9:44:49 AM PDT by svcw (Everyday the enemy tries to offer you an apple, when God has already given us an orchard.)
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To: Paragon Defender

Why when yo don’t think its translated correctly.


47 posted on 08/19/2010 9:46:09 AM PDT by svcw (Everyday the enemy tries to offer you an apple, when God has already given us an orchard.)
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To: magritte
..."Paul and the early Christians to convince Gentiles of the importance of Jesus...there are many more examples like this...it’s all out there to find...magritte"

Exactly right. It is not an easy thing to come to terms with, after believing a certain doctrine since childhood. In the era of the internet....those days are over for the truth seeker. It is all out there. Great point!

48 posted on 08/19/2010 10:04:04 AM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960

Show me.


49 posted on 08/19/2010 10:14:59 AM PDT by svcw (Everyday the enemy tries to offer you an apple, when God has already given us an orchard.)
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To: magritte
.Joseph Smith is a modern-day Paul.

laughing smiley Pictures, Images and Photos

50 posted on 08/19/2010 10:21:26 AM PDT by svcw (Everyday the enemy tries to offer you an apple, when God has already given us an orchard.)
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