Skip to comments.[OPEN thread] Hey CATHOLIC CAUCUS - What's up with the illegals?
Posted on 08/20/2010 6:30:58 PM PDT by GunsAndBibles
Then give to Caesar what is Caesar, but give to God what is Gods. (Mat 22:15-21)
I'm surprised you guys have the guts to show up around here with the unabashed support of the Catholic Church for the illegal invasion.
Last Sunday, Assumption Day, there was a parade here complete with Mexican Flags and Aztec dancers headed to the local Catholic Church.
So enlighten me, why is the Catholic Church aiding and abetting lawbreakers?
you should leave your mom's basement and try talking to a girl sometime.
Same reason as the Democrats, to increase their membership.
Because many of the bishops and priests are nothing but Democrats—Progressives—Commies—who use their clerical status as a platform to promote what they really think is important: Leftism.
Even if you get a decent response it would be part of a caucused thread and you wouldn’t be able to respond.
Don't be surprised. I don't support it, and "the Church" doesn't either, the opinions of some bishops notwithstanding.
Reflections in the Light of the Word of God and Catholic Social Teaching
Migration in the Light of the Word of God
22. The word of God and the Catholic social teaching it inspires illuminate an understandingone that is ultimately full of hopethat recognizes the lights and shadows that are a part of the ethical, social, political, economic, and cultural dimensions of migrations between our two countries. The word of God and Catholic social teaching also bring to light the causes that give rise to migrations, as well as the consequences that they have on the communities of origin and destination.
23. These lights and shadows are seen in faith as part of the dynamics of creation and grace on the one hand, and of sin and death on the other, that form the backdrop of all salvation history.
24. Even in the harsh stories of migration, God is present, revealing himself. Abraham stepped out in faith to respond to God's call (Gn 12:1). He and Sarah extended bounteous hospitality to three strangers who were actually a manifestation of the Lord, and this became a paradigm for the response to strangers of Abraham's descendants. The grace of God even broke through situations of sin in the forced migration of the children of Jacob: Joseph, sold into slavery, eventually became the savior of his family (Gn 37:45)a type of Jesus, who, betrayed by a friend for thirty pieces of silver, saves the human family.
25. The key events in the history of the Chosen People of enslavement by the Egyptians and of liberation by God led to commandments regarding strangers (Ex 23:9; Lv 19:33). Israel's conduct with the stranger is both an imitation of God and the primary, specific Old Testament manifestation of the great commandment to love one's neighbor: "For the Lord, your God, is the . . . Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who has no favorites, accepts no bribes, who executes justice for the orphan and widow, and befriends the alien, feeding and clothing him. So you, too, must befriend the alien, for you were once aliens yourselves in the land of Egypt" (Dt 10:17-19). For the Israelites, these injunctions were not only personal exhortations: the welcome and care of the alien were structured into their gleaning and tithing laws (Lv 19:9-10; Dt 14:28-29).
26. Recalling the migration of the Chosen People from Egypt, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph themselves were refugees in Egypt: "Out of Egypt I called my son" (Mt 2:15). From this account the Holy Family has become a figure with whom Christian migrants and refugees throughout the ages can identify, giving them hope and courage in hard times.
St. Matthew also describes the mysterious presence of Jesus in the migrants who frequently lack food and drink and are detained in prison (Mt 25:35-36). The "Son of Man" who "comes in his glory" (Mt 25:31) will judge his followers by the way they respond to those in such need: "Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me" (Mt 25:40).
27. The Risen Christ commanded his apostles to go to all nations to preach his message and to draw all people through faith and baptism into the life of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Mt 28:16-20). The Risen Christ sealed this command through the sending of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-21). The triumph of grace in the Resurrection of Christ plants hope in the hearts of all believers, and the Spirit works in the Church to unite all peoples of all races and cultures into the one family of God (Eph 2:17-20).
The Holy Spirit has been present throughout the history of the Church to work against injustice, division, and oppression and to bring about respect for individual human rights, unity of races and cultures, and the incorporation of the marginalized into full life in the Church. In modern times, one of the ways this work of the Spirit has been manifested is through Catholic social teaching, in particular the teachings on human dignity and the principle of solidarity.
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list
So, Mr. "GunsAndBibles", where specifically in the Scriptures you claim to know so well does the Lord express his contempt for refugees?
Is there any precedent in the Gospel for a devout Evangelical such as yourself to tell others "FOAD"? Obviously the sheer childishness of it doesn't seem promising, but can you cite us chapter and verse?
The illegal alien, Carlos A. Martinelly Montano, who slammed into a car carrying three Benedictine nuns, killing one of them, was being legally represented throughout his deportation process by Catholic Charities.
Yawn .... Catholic bashing. Nothing new under the sun.
In fact, the Catholic bishops in Italy are critical of how the Italian government handles illegals there (mostly Muslim) and they have come out against deportations of the Roma (a/k/a gypsies) in France recently (not Catholic...Orthodox?)
Having said that, the discussion of social doctrine in regards to illegals is another point. If I have the wherewithal this evening, I will go through it. But they are consistent even with non-Catholic illegals.
Look, it’s pretty natural that a person try to protect their own, ya know? If evangelicals are getting picked on somewhere in China, who do you think will be the most upset? Hindus?
I get the bishops’ opinions on this from a pastoral perspective. But where I think they go wrong is that it is *against the law* to enter the country illegally and people need to be obedient to the lawful authorities.
And don’t countries have the right to set immigration laws? If we for whatever reasons decide we want more Mexicans, then fine....lobby Congress to expand LEGAL immigration.
Lest we forget, the Catholic Church was the first to prosthelytize Central and South America. Never mind that Catholicism in many of those areas was just incorporated into the tribal religions...
The Catholic Church then very much misuses Leviticus 19:33-34, taking it completely out of context to justify harboring illegal aliens.
Thing is - that passage is specifically addressed to Israel, and is meant as a way to treat visitors - those who are present on legitimate and legal business. Remember, Israel was called out to be a peculiar people to show their God to the world - His might, and His perfection. Many from other lands who came to Israel on legitimate business were mistreated, and ripped off in business.
Nice cut and paste job...
Yes they would. Since you must know many illegal immigrants are not Catholic but may be Atheists or Evangelical Protestants.
Catholic Bashing... hmmm....
If my particular Baptist association began supporting lawbreaking illegals, I would hope that more than just those outside of our organization would be raising red flags!
So, why not chime in with a reasoned, measured, and logical response and set the example for all those (us?) Catholic bashers.
While the question was originally posted in a somewhat antagonistic form, the question is still quite legitimate.
Or we can play the same game that went around in 2008 - questioning Mitt Romney’s claimed “conservatism” was immediately identified as “Mormon-bashing”.
So the question still stands - why do so many within the Catholic Church choose to come down on the side of supporting/harboring/fighting FOR illegal immigration?
I don’t know the facts of the case. Maybe they had a good reason to defend him. But it’s also possible that he was being mollycoddled by some goofballs in Catholic Charities—lot of goofballs in Catholic Social Justice circles. We got a big Church.
And go ahead and be ticked. I’m Catholic and i’m ticked about it too, and so are my Catholic parents who immigrated to this country LEGALLY and have no patience for this illegal nonsense.
Yep - that's why so many of the illegal crowd here in the Central Arkansas area have Mary tattoos, posters, rosary beads hanging everywhere, etc... Definitely a protestant/atheistic practice...
Your question isn't a serious question - it's a fallacy of the same form as "when did you stop beating your wife?"
It ticked me off too. Although I bet the poor nuns(God bless them) disagree with us both.
The best response so far is post #5.
You do know there are conservative Catholic Freepers who know this is the result of liberals who hold liberalism above the teaching of the Catholic Church?
I don’t think it is Catholic bashing. I’m Catholic, and I’m ticked too about this issue.
My wife’s Catholic. She’s always trying to get me to convert, and, although there are some compelling aspects of her faith, this is certainly not one of them.
That this cause is so strongly supported by the Catholic Church that they would clearly endorse and support illegal behavior simply doesn’t make sense to me except in the cynical light of concerns about membership and income.
Th Bishops support immigration reform. They do not support amnesty. They support securing the borders and knowing who is actually entering the U.S. They believe in giving whatever aid is permitted under U.S. law. That might be legal assistance in dealing with immigration law. It might mean finding sponsors for immigrants. It might mean humanitarian aid. Which as Christians we are supposed to do no matter what a person’s status is.
Do I agree with them 100% on immigration. No but stop misrepresenting what they advocate. No where have they said an illegal immigrant should just be granted carte blanche status to stay in this country. They support fines and paying of back taxes as the least of remedies to gain legal status.
See post 8 - then tell me again that the Catholic Church is not aiding illegals.
I wonder the same thing.....
I thought you would be happy that the Evangelical churches are gaining ground in South and Central America. But the Bishops do not care what religion the illegal immigrants are any more than they care about the faith of any they serve through charitable endeavors.
I am not a Catholic. Nevertheless, I think your post is crass. I am also living in an area burdened by immigration - but I don’t start off blaming what, one billion people? for this issue.
Disregarding the ummmm, rather lively opening post, I think it is a valid question being asked by non-Roman Catholics.
To be honest, I read your response, and I did not find it answered the question being asked.
I suspect as the illegal alien question simmers and periodically boils over in this country, the question will continue to be asked.
Recognizing (after reading many caucus and non-caucus postings here on FR):
1. There is disagreement within the Roman Catholic church about the issue;
2. There is probably a significant difference between how the Roman Catholic church "works" structurally, and how it is perceived to work by many non-Roman Catholics.
Americans (rightly or wrongly) expect pretty direct answers to questions like this, and I think there will eventually be a point in which the illegal immigration issue will force the "taking of sides".
At this juncture, I'm not sure that I can say with 100% accuracy that I know what the Roman Catholic church's position is. Although I have read articles posted on FR that would seem to indicate that the Pope is "for" illegal immigration (or perhaps some might argue that he is not "against" it).
The Roman Catholic church can, of course, officially come down on either side of the issue that it feels is the correct one.
But I do believe that, at some point, the issue will rise to the level at which it will be necessary that the position be clearly, and unambiguously, stated.
So who is responsible in the C. Church for determining position? Who’s calling the shots here?
Note these comments by Archbishop Chaput:
“The Catholic Church respects the law, including immigration law. We respect those men and women who have the difficult job of enforcing it. We do not encourage or help anyone to break the law. We believe Americans have a right to solvent public institutions, secure borders and orderly regulation of immigration.
But we cant ignore people in need, and we wont be quiet about laws that dont work or that, in their working, create impossible contradictions and suffering. Despite all of the heated public argument over the past few years, Americans still find themselves stuck with an immigration system that adequately serves no one. We urgently need the kind of immigration reform that will address our economic and security needs, but will also regularize the status of the many decent undocumented immigrants who help our society to grow. A new Congress and a new president now serve in Washington. They have an extraordinary opportunity to act quickly and justly to solve this problem. “
Maybe most here will disagree with The Archbishop for seemingly favoring “amnesty”. But look at what he’s also saying. People NEED TO RESPECT THE LAW. The Church does NOT condone breaking the law, and the American people have a right to economic integrity and security.
So enlighten me, why is the Catholic Church aiding and abetting lawbreakers?
“Same reason as the Democrats, to increase their membership.”
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
I don't know, man. Wish I did.
Do you support the open borders policy of the US for the past 50 years or so...no effective border security?
Do you support the 14th Amendment language creating the anchor-baby situation?
Do you support the fact that on the occasional raid done for political purposes only the employees are busted? How many employers of illegal aliens are thrown into jail for long jail terms?
Do you support governments at all levels closing their eyes to day laborer gathering points? Do you support the fact that those who pick up the day laborers are not punished for doing so? (Not only for hiring people who are not legally able to work but also for tax evasion as well)
If you suspect that a restaurant is using illegals in the kitchen, do you walk out of it?
Would you refuse to buy a home that might have been constructed using illegals as laborers?
What constructive acts have you taken locally to make sure that your local government doesn't facilitate them where you live?
Yes, the illegal aliens are criminals and need to be dealt with accordingly. But if you honestly look at it, the government, businesses, and consumers have all really facilitated creating a magnet that draws them here.
If no employer would hire them because the employer knew that the price of getting caught hiring an illegal was a jail sentence, I bet that the illegal alien problem would quickly dry up and go away.
But that's not likely to happen any time soon...because the government is not likely to do so any time soon, are they?
And the government is not likely to take serious steps to seal up the border to make it impossible to cross (either from the north or the south), are they?
As to “what’s up?” What’s up is the minute bishops take one step outside of their prescribed duties they immediately act like bozos.
AS to the number of Catholic illegales, a lot of non-Catholic groups make great inroads and a WHOLE lot of immigrants are functionally unchurched in their home countries. So I’m afraid it’s more a matter of bishops being dumb than of anything else.
"We urgently need the kind of immigration reform that will address our economic and security needs, but will also regularize the status of the many decent undocumented immigrants who help our society to grow.
To answer your question; I manage some income properties and I will not do business with any company that I know hires illegals. I will not patronize any establishment that I know hires illegals. I have the expectation that large retailers perform due diligence in their hiring practices.
I *highly* doubt it. Chaput is one of the most conservative bishops in the U.S.
That’ quote is standard boilerplate “well, there are new folks in town, and let’s hope they do the right thing.”
LOL...well said my friend.
Good for you.
And you know, also, that you are in the vast minority.
If we weren't Catholics I'd be sitting in the Amen Corner yelling "preach it brother", since we are what we are I'll just nod politely in your direction.
I think that many Americans could agree with Archbishop Chaput's statement that his church will help people in need.
Where many non-Roman Catholics would probably tend to diverge from the Archbishop would be on what resources he would use for that help.
If Roman Catholics are using their church's resources, who could argue against it.
However, if illegal aliens are being "assisted" into getting free taxpayer funded healthcare, free taxpayer funded anchor baby services, and other free taxpayer funded welfare, all intended for legal American citizens, then many will be against the Archbishop's position.
I would suggest that the statement you posted could easily be construed as too ambiguous for such a hot topic.
When Americans see hundreds of thousands of illegals marching in a major city demanding "rights" in one news report, and then in another news report they hear about Roman Catholic groups arguing for "more support for undocumented immigrants", they will draw certain conclusions.
LOL, of course, the Archbishop and I don't have discussions on this issue, but I suggest that his words are too vague for such a volatile issue as illegal immigration and its ever increasing burden on American taxpayers.
I understand those positions - but they are inadequately framed in the historical context of scripture. Borders and residency in those eras were substantially different than today’s current standards and laws. One would expect to see a predominantly Catholic country like Mexico following those more liberal interpretations, but their laws are stricter than ours.
Our country has been very generous to illegals. Yet that is abused by the illegals to the point that it is overwhelming the system, it costs more for the benefits than what they put into the system. In essence, they are not only here illegally, but are stealing from the collective citizens (let alone the additional theft - identity and property).
My concern is that the Church (inclusive of those protestant denominations who also support illegal immigration) is promoting these people to come and participate in an immoral action (as described above). Is it correct to promote sinful behavior for a ‘social justice’ issue?
The Mahoneys, the McCarricks, and so on.
There are Catholic bishops...and not a few of them...who acknowledge the problem.
Archbishop Gomez, the new coadjutor archbishop of Los Angeles, has written:
He also notes that the millions of immigrants have violated U.S. immigration and that this makes law-abiding Americans angry.
And it should, he writes.
Archbishop Chaput, the Archbishop of Denver, has said,
You're right. People do -- one of the issues that's raised at the beginnings of these discussions is these people who come here illegally have broken the law, and that's not appropriate.
And, of course, the church agrees with them: Breaking the law is never appropriate. And being an illegal alien is not good for the person who breaks the law, nor is it good for our country. It's a dangerous way to live. And to have a group in our society that isn't legal undermines the common good, too.
So the church is not in favor of illegal immigration. The church is not in favor of breaking the law.
Tulsa's Bishop Slattery has stated,
However in recent years, the federal government has neither protected the sovereignty of our borders, nor has it provided a realistic means for workers to enter the country legally. Instead it has allowed millions of immigrants to enter the country illegally for the sake of our economy; while leaving it to state and local governments to deal with the resultant chaos of millions of valuable workers who have no legal identity, no automobile insurance (and are unable to obtain it), no health coverage (with no funds to pay for it) and no means of acquiring legal residency.
And I could continue on.
The fact of the matter is that the bishops' words are sound-byted to meet the agenda of the media. While there some (too many) who are vehemently pro open-border, there are a select few who get all the airtime.
One other point: the idea that the bishops are supporting illegal immigration because it will swell the number of Catholics in the country is laughable in its lunacy.
Illegals have no money. They are not in a position to provide endowments or even in a position to make any kind of a sizable contribution in the weekly collection basket.
If they choose to send their kids to Catholic schools...they will have to be massively subsidized at the expense of those of us who do actually contribute a decent amount. If they use Catholic hospitals, chances are they will have to receive the treatments gratis...again at the cost of those of us who pay or those who endow the hospitals. If they use Catholic social services, do you think they pay for them?
Sure, population might be increased...but the dioceses would go broke in a heartbeat. (Amidst the lawsuit frenzy that is going on now, they are going broke enough anyway)
If the bishops had a nefarious plot, they would try to recruit rich immigrants, not dirt poor ones.
Pinging her (hope she saved it).
Evangelical churches have a very difficult problem as well with illegal immigrants in the congregation. The people aren’t the problem - they are basically nice people - but the question of how to deal with them is vexing. I know, “throw them out, turn them in to the police.” It doesn’t always seem so black-and-white when you have to deal with it among people you love.
Wonder how long the love and compassion would last if illegals were scaling the walls at Vatican City, having anchor babies, and the Vatican had to find a way to support them, housing, health costs and every day brought more and more. It’s easy to be ‘compassionate’ when it’s someone else’s/another country’s tax money being used to support the illegal antics.
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