Exploring universal Christian beliefs (LDS)

http://www.mormontimes.com ^ | 09/03/2010 | Dan Peterson

[Paragon Defender]

Glenn Beck has been in the news lately and, not surprisingly, so has his religion. Some have warned Christians to be wary of Beck, not because of his political views but because of his religious affiliation. He is, they say, not a real Christian.

I'm betting, though, that he is. I don't know Mr. Beck personally, but he belongs to the same church I do, and I'm a pretty mainstream member. I'll wager that his beliefs resemble mine.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth. I also believe in Jesus Christ, his only-begotten Son, the Lord of all humankind, who, before being born to the Virgin Mary, was the Jehovah of the Old Testament. I believe that Jesus Christ suffered under Pontius Pilate, that he was crucified, died and was buried. While his body lay in the tomb, he descended into the realm of the spirits of the dead and preached the gospel there. On the third day, Jesus rose, physically, from death. He ascended into heaven, where he sits at the right hand of the Father. He will return, however, in power and great glory, to judge the living and the dead. In the meantime, we can receive guidance from the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Trinity.

I believe that Christ founded a church in order to teach his doctrine and administer the ordinances of salvation to all humanity and that the fellowship of the Saints, Christ's disciples, transcends not only all ethnic, cultural and national divisions but even death itself. I believe in the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection of the body, which are made possible only through the gracious Atonement of Jesus Christ, in whom we have our only hope of salvation. And, finally, I believe in everlasting life.

Some will have recognized that the structure and phrasing of the two paragraphs above were modeled, quite consciously, on the ancient "Apostles' Creed" — a text dating to roughly the late fifth century. In the modern translation favored by the Church of England, the Apostles' Creed reads as follows:

"I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended into hell. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen."

Now, obviously, I've changed the language a bit. Mostly, I wanted to use more familiar or more typically Mormon terms. For instance, the word "catholic" is rarely used, nowadays, in its original sense of "universal" — it should be obvious that Henry VIII's church isn't announcing its surrender to the pope when it recites the Apostles' Creed — but Latter-day Saints do most definitely believe that the church established by Jesus has a universal mission.

More significantly, where the original Apostles' Creed says that Christ was "conceived by the Holy Spirit" ("conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto"), Latter-day Saints will want to insist that Jesus is the divine Son of God the Father. The scriptures are completely silent as to the mechanism of Christ's conception, and they do say that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary (Luke 1:35), but they also plainly declare that Jesus was and is "the Son of the Highest" (Luke 1:32). And emphasis on the fact that Jesus is the Son of God the Father scarcely seems a plausible basis for claiming that Latter-day Saints aren't Christians.

Believing what we do, because we agree so closely with the traditional Apostles' Creed, either Glenn Beck and I (and, for that matter, Mitt Romney and Harry Reid) are Christians, or those who formulated the creed and all those who have affirmed it during the centuries since then haven't been, either.

[Paragon Defender]

ping

[Liberty1970]

Mormons are not Christians. They might as well say Jews, Muslims and pretty much everybody else are Christians if they are going to claim that polytheistic Mormons are 'Christian'.

The Mormons I've known have been fine people, but this basic dishonesty about the nature of their religion and how radically it differs from Christianity is extremely troubling. It is a cult, plain and simple.

[Yet_Again]

You can say all these things, and yet if you get the question "Who do you say that I am?" wrong, it means nothing. If I say everything you list in your post and then say Jesus is this guy: It doesn't do me much good. The Hindu is willing to accept Jesus as an avatar of the above fellow. The Muslim is willing to accept Jesus as a good guy and a prophet. The Mormon is willing to accept Jesus as a created being, the spirit brother of Lucifer, and the son of Elohim and Mary. Only the Orthodox Christian sees Jesus as part of a trinitarian, monotheistic, God. Finally, the Mormon religion is one which encapsulates the oldest lie of Satan for modern consumption: "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5) with "and you'll get your own planet" added on to the end. *Practicing* Mormons (not you, Mitt) are generally nice people, and defend traditional values, and are valuable political allies...but for the Christian to unite with the Mormon in matters of theology is to fall into serious heresy.

[Gondring]

So he believes that God “got it on” with Mary in the flesh, impregnating her with Christ (who is entirely separate from God)?

It’s one of the little crazy parts of the man that are overshadowed by his insights into some important issues, and by his ability to reach people.

[Friendofgeorge]

I had always thought Mormons did not believe that Jesus was actually God?? I believe something is missing here.

There are a couple things we do know...Harry Reid is not a Christian, forgetting about his beliefs for a moment whatever they may be?? He supports abortion! Yes I know he says he is pro life but he lies whenever he says this. He voted for all Obama`s judges and voted against many Bush Judges.

Reid bears false witness on a daily basis and is without any question not a Christian.

The other thing we know for certain absolutely, is that Jesus NEVER came to the United States as the Book of Mormon says. They need to renounce the book of Mormon.

That`s where I will leave it.

[Gondring]

One of the most disturbing parts, to me, is the way they change the definition of something—and then say, “we believe that, too!” to sound similar even where they are totally different. For example, “life everlasting” is mentioned in the Creed, yet it means something totally different to a Mormon.

[homegroan]

That is where the Morman’s lose me; the Joe Smith/Jesus Our Lord in America thing-well-I just don’t get it.

[elcid1970]

Do Mormons profess the Holy Trinity?

Why no crosses on Mormon temples?

Where is star Kolob, anyway?

Merry Smithmas, y’all.

[Paragon Defender]

There are a couple things we do know...Harry Reid is not a Christian, forgetting about his beliefs for a moment whatever they may be?? He supports abortion! Yes I know he says he is pro life but he lies whenever he says this. He voted for all Obama`s judges and voted against many Bush Judges.

Reid bears false witness on a daily basis and is without any question not a Christian.

The other thing we know for certain absolutely, is that Jesus NEVER came to the United States as the Book of Mormon says. They need to renounce the book of Mormon.

---

Reid is a strange one to most of us LDS folk that I have talked to. Personally I don’t get him at all and am often embarrased by his actions.

One thing I know for certain is that Jesus absolutely came to the American continent just as is related in the Book of Mormon.

“And aother bsheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be cone fold, and one shepherd.”

And so it was.

[newheart]

pfl

[Paragon Defender]

oops I left the footnote letters in. Here it is again.

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

so sorry I cannot edit the post

[Ahithophel]

"Believing what we [Mormons] do, because we agree so closely with the traditional Apostles' Creed, either Glenn Beck and I (and, for that matter, Mitt Romney and Harry Reid) are Christians, or those who formulated the creed and all those who have affirmed it during the centuries since then haven't been, either."

The traditional Apostles' Creed is the not the touchstone for determining whether one will enter the Kingdom of Heaven about which Jesus spoke. Rather:

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'" John 14:6 (NASV)

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Matthew 7:13-15

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven [including Moroni, Ed.], should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" Galatians 1:6-9

Joseph Smith and what he refers to as the angel Moroni preach a gospel that is different from the gospel of the Bible and the implications are clear from the passages above as well as others. If you disagree, your dispute is not with me but with the Word of God. Peace, A.

[Paragon Defender]

Hey there and thanks for the civil post/response.

LDS beliefs are not at odds with the Bible at all. Quite the contrary. We may have a different understanding of what some scriptures mean but that’s hardly an LDS specific trait.

[RnMomof7]

I had always thought Mormons did not believe that Jesus was actually God??

He is a god..no trinity here... every temple worthy married mormon can become a god too and have his own planet.. and populate it with the spirit children that he and the goddess produce in heaven ...now that could prove a problem for the goddess unless she has plenty of "sister wives" to help do the population and the baby spirit care.

So you too can be a god... like jesus

[Paragon Defender]

Back to work.....bbl......

[RnMomof7]

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

The Jesus of the Bible was speaking to Jews about Gentiles... God was the God of the Jews and the heathen nations had their own gods..sorta like Mormons have their gods.. anyway He was telling them that the gentiles were to be included in the promises of the OT..he was not talking about visiting native Americans or Joseph Smith

[Friendofgeorge]

Hey do not get me wrong PD, I am rooting for you!

The truth is...A person need not be a member of any Church to be a Christian.

For starters...Everybody truly need to commit their life to God/Christ in a heart felt prayer like this...

God be Merciful to me a sinner, I believe the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy son of God died on the cross for my sins, Lord Jesus come in to my life, be the Lord of my life, forgive me for all my sins, I turn to you Lord God from my sins, Lord Save me.

A prayer along those lines will do just fine, after that we need to get into the new Testament, starting in John is the best place....VS 1...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.. Jesus was/is the Word and in fact God himself.

When I say we do not need to go to Church, it is not essential in our salvation, but it`s important to find a good Bible believing Church to attend if at all possible. Many people can not attend Church for a variety of reasons, shut ins etc, and some people just do not fit in, so it`s not essential to salvation, though much better if you can.

We need to let go of things that will disqualify us from the faith, such as killing God`s unborn children etc, so that rules out the Democrat party in any way shape or form.

As far as another Gospel...Revelation closing chapter warns of such a thing....If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life,and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Jesus himself warned that others will come with a different Gospel.

[Friendofgeorge]

I got it, Jehovah's witnesses believe something similar, Now I will have the JW`s after me, they also believe Jesus is a god (small g) my dear sister was sucked into it.

[ForAmerica]

Mormons are not Christians!

[CynicalBear]

Thank you Dan Peterson! That is a clarification that was well stated and much needed.

The definition of what a Christian is has been strained beyond comprehension. The simple definition as explained so succinctly in the Bible, I believe, should be our standard.

In John 3:16 it says: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

In Acts 16:31 it says: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Peterson clearly states that he, and other Mormons, believes in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit and that they are one in the Trinity. He also states that he believes that Jesus is his Lord. He believes in atonement through Jesus.

If the Scripture itself tells us that to obtain eternal salvation we need to “believe in the Lord Jesus” to be saved why would people want to add to what the Bible says? Jesus himself said to the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise for simply stating that he believed who Jesus was, why would anyone assume that more is needed to be saved? Why would people want to decide for themselves what is in the heart of anyone?

[Moonmad27]

I have great respect for Ganesh and his devotees. The fake Jesus of Mormonism and his honest but misled followers, nope.

[Tennessee Nana]

Mormons are not Christians...

Mormon beliefs and doctrines are not in the Christian Bible...

Lets take one subject ...the biggy..POLYGAMY

The one that is identified with mormonism because it is their “first principal”..”the new and everlasting covenant...

From a MORMON website called FAIR we find this explanation for POLYGAMY...

Any such list as this is tentative. But, it reminds us plural marriage may have accomplished more than we sometimes appreciate. Some benefits which have been suggested include:

1. It was to try (prove) His people. Polygamy stood as an Abrahamic test for the saints. The willingness to obey a commandment that was inherently distasteful to the vast majority of the members of the Church allowed members to draw close to the Lord.

2. It was to “raise up” righteous seed. Specifically it allowed a relatively few righteous men to become very prolific in a time when the West was very wild and there were many unrighteous men. Children were raised in more households with a strong gospel commitment.

3. It served to “set apart” his people as a peculiar people to the world. This social isolation that gave the church space to solidify itself into an identity independent of the many denominations from which the membership was derived. Sociologists have discovered that in order for a religion to successfully grow it has to be demanding and it has to experience a moderate amount of tension with its host society. The RLDS Church rejected plural marriage, and perhaps not coincidentally are now small in number and virtually indistinguishable from Protestants.

4. Polygamy was part of the “restoration of all things,” and a way for Mormons to feel connected with prophets like Abraham and Jacob. 19th century Mormons gained a greater appreciation for covenants that these forefathers made with God.

5. Numerous family ties that were created, building a network of associations that strengthened the Church.

6. Arguably polygamy affected higher natural growth rates. Ironically plural wives had fewer children than their monogamous Mormon counterparts. [2]

7. Polygamy created a system where a higher percentage of women and men got married compared to the national average at the time. [3]

8. Plural marriages increased competition in the marriage market, so the “spiritual slackers” and lower quality men had to work to improve their standing to compete. They had to clean up, try to get good jobs and treat the women with respect. It gave the women more options as to whom to marry.

9.Out on the frontier in 19th century life expectancy was low and women were not as economically independent as they are today. Therefore there were many widows (and orphans coming of age) that needed to be taken care of. Some women who joined the Church abroad immigrated without their husbands, leaving them without male financial support. Furthermore, Brigham Young instituted the most liberal divorce policy in the country so women (but not men!) could get out of unhappy marriages. Kathryn Daynes estimated that 30% of plural marriages came from married-before women. [4]

10. Church Historian Elder Jensen observed how Mormon polygamy enabled women more freedom to earn college degrees and join national women’s rights organizations at the time. [5]

11. Polygamy helped integrate foreign immigrants into Mormon society. With the marriage market operating so efficiently, women were highly sought after, and so Utah men had to sometimes marry outside their preferred cultural boundaries. This provided a great way to redistribute the wealth to the immigrants families coming. [6]

12. Plural marriages provided a social support network while the husbands were off on missions.

Recently itemr 8 was changed to read...

8. Katheryn Daynes makes the point that in nineteenth century Utah, more women arranged to hold temple recommends and receive their endowments. That is, female rates of temple-worthiness (or, at least, being willing to take the time and effort to get a recommend and actually go to the temple) were higher than male rates. And, these rates didn’t really change much, regardless of how common plural marriage was (and, so, these higher rates cannot have been caused by plural marriage). Thus, women in Utah were in a difficult situation—more of them were willing and able to have temple sealings/eternal marriage than there were men willing and able to do so. Plural marriage changed this dynamic enormously. One temple-worthy man being married would not take that man out of the “potential married partners pool.” This allowed more members to have temple marriages, sealings, and the blessings that came with these ordinances.

The rest have stayed the same...

A “christian” practice...hardly

You will notice that item 12 proves Joseph stole wive’s after sending husbands on missions.

[ansel12]

It would be interesting if one day a Mormon showed up as a Mormon, and was open about his religion and answered the questions honestly, and sold his theology honestly.

The Mormons here consist of salesmen that want to sell Mormonism by hiding it’s teachings and trying to show how “Christian” it is. We never get any honest Mormonism here.

[ShadowAce]

We never get any honest Mormonism here.

That wouldn't make for good evangelism.

[Colofornian]

It would be interesting if one day a Mormon showed up as a Mormon, and was open about his religion and answered the questions honestly, and sold his theology honestly. The Mormons here consist of salesmen that want to sell Mormonism by hiding it’s teachings and trying to show how “Christian” it is. We never get any honest Mormonism here.

Allow me to give you an example of that -- with the very content of this article posted by PD. The author, Peterson, says:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth. I also believe in Jesus Christ, his only-begotten Son, the Lord of all humankind, who, before being born to the Virgin Mary, was the Jehovah of the Old Testament. I believe that Jesus Christ suffered under Pontius Pilate, that he was crucified, died and was buried. While his body lay in the tomb, he descended into the realm of the spirits of the dead and preached the gospel there. On the third day, Jesus rose, physically, from death. He ascended into heaven, where he sits at the right hand of the Father. He will return, however, in power and great glory, to judge the living and the dead. In the meantime, we can receive guidance from the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Trinity. I believe that Christ founded a church in order to teach his doctrine and administer the ordinances of salvation to all humanity and that the fellowship of the Saints, Christ's disciples, transcends not only all ethnic, cultural and national divisions but even death itself. I believe in the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection of the body, which are made possible only through the gracious Atonement of Jesus Christ, in whom we have our only hope of salvation. And, finally, I believe in everlasting life. Some will have recognized that the structure and phrasing of the two paragraphs above were modeled, quite consciously, on the ancient "Apostles' Creed" — a text dating to roughly the late fifth century. In the modern translation favored by the Church of England, the Apostles' Creed reads as follows: "I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended into hell. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he will come to judge the living and the dead. "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen."

Now who are we to believe? This Peterson character, and I suppose, by extension, poster Paragon Defender? Or contradictory Joseph Smith and the unnamed "Personage" who was his "spirit guide?" Smith said -- and this is now Mormon "scripture" -- Joseph Smith - History, Pearl of Great Price, vv. 18-19:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right... [OK...Smith wants to know which Christian sect to join]

...I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)÷and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS were an abomination in his sight;

So, this unnamed spirit guide said to Smith that 100% of the sects' creeds, including the Apostles Creed, was "an abomination" to him...

Hmmm...

And now Peterson is acting like this Apostles Creed is his long-lost stamping/stomping [it's been spelled both ways] ground.

Ansel, for three years I've been asking Mormons if the Apostles Creed is so much an "abomination," to please tell me what was wrong with it. (Only one poster has ever even tried).

Apostles creed qualifier is that "catholic" -- when it was written -- was "catholic" with a small "c"..."catholic" originally just meant "universal." So as long as a reviewer of that creed understands that, Mormons really don't have anything to object to that creed. Which is why Peterson now says he subscribes to it.

The problem is that Smith and the unnamed personage-spirit-guide not only didn't subscribe to it, but they labeled it for time immemorial as abominable.

So, PD, whose right? You & Peterson; or Smith & the unnamed personage?

Hmmm...tell you what...why don't you & Peterson tag-team and challenge those two other rascals to a debate!!!

[colorcountry]

Mormon Quotes (Heretical)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpZ9-0jp3GY

[Colofornian]

I had always thought Mormons did not believe that Jesus was actually God?? I believe something is missing here.

Well, Mormons really differ on this is that they don't believe Jesus and the Father are one nature. Secondly, they don't believe ether was God from all eternity. They each advanced to godhood status. And then thirdly, yeah, Jesus is "a" son of God...but then again, since Mormons believe in the pre-existence, so are you! "Bro Jesus" just beat you to the race down mom-god's birth canal in Kolob!

More details & documentation of distinctions -- for those interested:

The Mormon "Christ" is a pre-existent spirit, they say, like you or me...whose difference is...
(a) mere spiritual birth order--having been first; (b) was twice made a son of God via Mary; and (c) died for Adam's sin so folks could be resurrected (his role as Savior).

The true Messiah was born in Bethlehem as the Bible foretold and affirmed post-birth--not like the Mormon jesus of Mormon "scriptures" supposedly born in Jerusalem.

Other than that, the lds jesus is not the Son of God from eternity past. He worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucipher. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!

This "jesus" is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17:5). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.

The True Jesus Christ: Savior, not a Saved Being

In contrast, the Mormon christ is but a "saved being"--a mere creature like dear ole Dad: "Christ is a saved being” (lds apostle McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) (Please also see McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)

I'm sorry, Normandy. The real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).

In contrast, the Mormon christ is one savior among many:

"...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (lds "prophet" John Taylor; Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).

No, "saviors of the world" are NOT plentiful (1 John 4:14; John 4:42).

The Mormon "jesus" really didn't die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature...cause if we get to Mormon heaven we discover the Mormon doctrine of men are subject to punishment for their own sins--not Jesus as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."

The True Jesus Christ: Creator of All Things & All Beings, Not Simply a Creature of some God's making

The Jesus of the Bible created ALL things--including all angels...including even Lucipher (see Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16; see even D&C 93:9-10). This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims.

Conclusion:

The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)

I worship this Messiah, just like God told the angels to do in Hebrews 1:6. And I challenge grassroots Mormons to defy their leaders when they tell them NOT to directly worship Jesus (see Mormon 7:7; 2 Nephi 25:29; 4 Nephi 4:37; 3 Nephi 11:17; 3 Nephi 17:10).

I directly pray to this Jesus as Stephen did in Acts (7:59) -- and even as the supposed Book of Mormon disciple characters DIRECTLY and repeatedly did to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19: 6-26...again -- a Mormon "scripture" de-emphasized & ignored by Mormon leaders).

Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Nephite disciples likewise called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18). D&C says Jesus is God (19:4; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures (for example, Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6), either Jesus is a false god or the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?

Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Savior, my God! He is the Only Lord, the Only Savior, the Only True God!

[greyfoxx39]

The Mormons here consist of salesmen that want to sell Mormonism by hiding it’s teachings and trying to show how “Christian” it is.

Mormons demand that all the Christian religions accept the heresy of mormonism.

They demand that Christians not only recognize them as equal, but are expected to grant them equality while the non-Biblical doctrines and practices and denial of Christian beliefs are to be NOW (under the Mormonism Affirmative Action rule), left intact even though they have been inimical to settled and accepted Christianity since the inception of mormonism by Joseph Smith.

Mormonism not only demands a "seat at the Christian banquet table", it demands to set the menu, control the guest list, collect the funds from the ticket sales, and choose its own non-Biblical unedited and false message from its chosen speaker, all the while whining about being persecuted.

[Colofornian]

I had always thought Mormons did not believe that Jesus was actually God?? I believe something is missing here.

Well, Mormons really differ on this is that they don't believe Jesus and the Father are one nature. Secondly, they don't believe ether was God from all eternity. They each advanced to godhood status. And then thirdly, yeah, Jesus is "a" son of God...but then again, since Mormons believe in the pre-existence, so are you! "Bro Jesus" just beat you to the race down mom-god's birth canal in Kolob!

More details & documentation of distinctions -- for those interested:

The Mormon "Christ" is a pre-existent spirit, they say, like you or me...whose difference is...
(a) mere spiritual birth order--having been first; (b) was twice made a son of God via Mary; and (c) died for Adam's sin so folks could be resurrected (his role as Savior).

The true Messiah was born in Bethlehem as the Bible foretold and affirmed post-birth--not like the Mormon jesus of Mormon "scriptures" supposedly born in Jerusalem.

Other than that, the lds jesus is not the Son of God from eternity past. He worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucipher. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!

This "jesus" is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17:5). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.

The True Jesus Christ: Savior, not a Saved Being

In contrast, the Mormon christ is but a "saved being"--a mere creature like dear ole Dad: "Christ is a saved being” (lds apostle McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) (Please also see McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)

I'm sorry, Normandy. The real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).

In contrast, the Mormon christ is one savior among many:

"...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (lds "prophet" John Taylor; Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).

No, "saviors of the world" are NOT plentiful (1 John 4:14; John 4:42).

The Mormon "jesus" really didn't die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature...cause if we get to Mormon heaven we discover the Mormon doctrine of men are subject to punishment for their own sins--not Jesus as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."

The True Jesus Christ: Creator of All Things & All Beings, Not Simply a Creature of some God's making

The Jesus of the Bible created ALL things--including all angels...including even Lucipher (see Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16; see even D&C 93:9-10). This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims.

Conclusion:

The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)

I worship this Messiah, just like God told the angels to do in Hebrews 1:6. And I challenge grassroots Mormons to defy their leaders when they tell them NOT to directly worship Jesus (see Mormon 7:7; 2 Nephi 25:29; 4 Nephi 4:37; 3 Nephi 11:17; 3 Nephi 17:10).

I directly pray to this Jesus as Stephen did in Acts (7:59) -- and even as the supposed Book of Mormon disciple characters DIRECTLY and repeatedly did to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19: 6-26...again -- a Mormon "scripture" de-emphasized & ignored by Mormon leaders).

Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Nephite disciples likewise called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18). D&C says Jesus is God (19:4; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures (for example, Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6), either Jesus is a false god or the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?

Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Savior, my God! He is the Only Lord, the Only Savior, the Only True God!

[Colofornian]

LDS beliefs are not at odds with the Bible at all. Quite the contrary. We may have a different understanding of what some scriptures mean but that’s hardly an LDS specific trait.

Allow me to give just one example of how Mormons are supposedly "not at all at odds with the Bible at all" given their "different understanding of what some scriptures mean":

Mormons have the absolute wacky understanding that the world's evils were something the Mormon god wanted man to do:

The Lds church in one of its priesthood manuals calls the Fall a "Great Blessing" while one of its general authorities, "apostle" Dallin Oaks, wrote: "Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve's act and honor her with wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall." ("The Choice that Began Mortality" Liahona, 2002)

Only in Mormonism are wars, murders, hate, idolatry, racism, rape, incest, sexual abuse, lust, theft, and other consequences of the fall a blessing to be "celebrated."

[Friendofgeorge]

Thank You for the very in depth report on the Mormon faith! This is something every Christian should read!

Excellent work :)

[MHGinTN]

"this basic dishonesty" ... that is the essence of mormonism apologetics as practiced at Freerepublic.com. The apologists are banking on most readers not digging into the facts regarding mormonism, to refute the deceits. When their own documents from their own official sites are posted as evidence, they make vague claims that antis are lying about what LDS believe.

There is currently, apparently, a renewed effort to pretend they are the restored Christianity. To make this push they deceive readers with denials that their 'sexual degenerate prophet' claimed all of Chrisianity was in 100% apostasy since the second century. This very thread is skirting that fundamental claim by their religions founder.

Regarding the LDS practice of being baptised for the dead as an example, the deceivers working for the father of lies claim the practice is 'biblical' citing Paul's phrasing in Corinthians as their proof source. Of course, in that instance just looking at the way Paul phrased it refutes their purposed deception (Paul uses 'they' rather than 'we' when referring to the pagan practice the Corinthians were familiar with in the region of Corinth). But that doesn't slow them down from periodically repeating the same deception in hopes that they will fool some readers. And that is but one of the many deceptions the mormonism apologists practice at Freerepublic.

[Colofornian]

Peterson clearly states that he, and other Mormons, believes in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit and that they are one in the Trinity.

Uh, no they don't. Oh, at times, Mormons try to sound "trinitarian." And certainly several Book of Mormon passsages and even Doctrine & Covenant passages (both Lds "scriptures") are trinitarian in nature. Mormons freeze those passages. They put them on hold. They not only don't apply them, but they trash the "tri-ness" or our tri-God!

The definition of what a Christian is has been strained beyond comprehension. The simple definition as explained so succinctly in the Bible, I believe, should be our standard. In John 3:16 it says: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” In Acts 16:31 it says: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Well, it'd be nice in our "multi-verse" universe if things were that simple.

Here, let me show you:

Me to Mr. New Age adherent: "Mr. New Ager, do you believe in Jesus Christ?"
Mr. New Age adherent: "Why, of course I do!"

Me to Mr. 'Moonie' adherent: "Mr. 'Moonie', do you believe in Jesus Christ?"
Mr. 'Moonie' adherent: "Why, of course I do!"

Me to Mr. Christian Science adherent: "Mr. Christian Science, do you believe in Jesus Christ?"
Mr. Christian Science adherent: "Why, of course I do!"

Me to Mr. Jehovah's Witness adherent: "Mr. JW, do you believe in Jesus Christ?"
Mr. JW adherent: "Why, of course I do!"

Me to Mr. Gnostic adherent: "Mr. Gnostic, do you believe in Jesus Christ?"
Mr. Gnostic adherent: "Why, of course I do!"

Me to Mr. Mormon adherent: "Mr. Mormon, do you believe in Jesus Christ?"
Mr. Mormon adherent: "Why, of course I do!"

Jesus warned false Messiahs would be presented (Matthew 24). And you know Jesus can be treated as Gumby, twisted out of shape so that He is no longer recognizable.

The "Jesus" of the Marharishi of TM is a Jesus who never suffered.
The "Jesus" of Guru Maharaj Ji supposedly merged with Krishna, Ram and Buddha.
The only difference between the Moonie "jesus" and the rest of us, says, Sun Myung Moon, is that Jesus had no original sin nature.
The "Jesus" of Christian Science think of themselves as "Christian," yet they don't believe Jesus is God.
The "Jesus" of the Jehovah's Witnesses is not Almighty and is "a god," but not "THE" God; nor did He bodily resurrect.
The "Jesus" of many gnostics would in no way incarnate a human body -- because that to them would be too "corrupt" of a thing to do.
The "Jesus" of Brigham Young is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?...Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870) [Tell us, Reno, what makes Brigham's "jesus" so universally unique?]
The "Jesus" of Mormonism is a pre-existent spirit-creature; a son of a God-man whose next-in-line brother is "Lucifer/Satan" -- a "Jesus" who had to work out his own salvation; and whose blood didn't cover all of our personal sins (thereby rendering him as an incomplete, inadequate "savior").

Tell, us, T.D. How can all these "Jesuses" be the same One? How can we have...
...a Jesus who suffers & a TM "Jesus" who doesn't?
...a Jesus who resurrects bodily & a JW "Jesus" who doesn't?
...a Jesus who transcends us in every way & a Moonie "Jesus" who only transcends us sin-wise?
...a Jesus who is united with the Father & the Spirit vs. a Hindu offshoot/New Age "Jesus" who merges as part of a divine flame or divine ocean?
...THE fully-God, fully-man incarnant son of God vs. a less-than-human embodied gnostic "Jesus"?
...a Jesus who is THE Savior vs. a Mormon "Jesus" who competes with ALL kinds of "saviors" on other planets (per Brigham) & ALL kinds of "saviors" on THIS planet (per Lds "prophet" John Taylor's description of Baptism of the dead "saviors")??
...a Jesus who is THE Creator vs. a Mormon "Jesus," a mere spirit-creature?
...a Jesus who is THE Savior vs. a Mormon "Jesus" who is touted by Lds leaders as a "saved being?"
...a Jesus who created Lucifer (Col. 1:16-17) vs. a Mormon "Jesus" who "lucked out" on being ahead of Lucifer spirit-birth assembly line, only because of spirit-birth order???
...a Jesus who died BOTH for our sin nature AND ALL of our personal sins vs. a Mormon "Jesus" who didn't?

By your definitions, we'd have to define JWs, Christian Science, Moonies, New Age adherents, & all the rest as "Christians," too! And all of this from Lds adherents who have trouble even accepting the fLDS as "Mormon?"

(Good luck with sorting out who is the real Jesus is then with such a one-world religion!)

[CynicalBear]

When someone states that they believe in the Lord Jesus and claim they believe in the Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I will not be the one who looks in their heart. I will lead that to the Holy Spirit.

Thanks

[Paragon Defender]

It would be interesting if one day a Mormon showed up as a Mormon, and was open about his religion and answered the questions honestly, and sold his theology honestly.

The Mormons here consist of salesmen that want to sell Mormonism by hiding it’s teachings and trying to show how “Christian” it is. We never get any honest Mormonism here.

---

I’ve never seen a Mormon here or anywhere else hide anything. I’ve never seen a dishonest Mormon here either.

I mostly see a gang of Mormon bashers spewing propaganda daily. Perhaps you missed that part.

As far as how “Christian” Mormons are, you don’t get any more Christian. Have a nice day.

[Paragon Defender]

Wow. Just wow. Your talent for twisting things to meet your needs and straw man style posting is impressive. There is no discrepancy. He says he modeled his statement obviously to prove a point. It’s not “exactly” the same.

As is explained plainly in my previous post “Does Mormonism attack Christianity” your inference of what is meant by “all their creeds” and “abomination” is incorrect.

I invite everyone to read all of these “issues” and then do some research on your own from more than one side of the “issues”. Don’t forget to check out the vast multitude of others threads just bursting at the seams with anti-Mormon propaganda.

Is what all these Mormon attack squad people parrot day in and and day out on these boards true? Are they being 100% accurate or honest? Don’t take their word for it. Find out for yourself. Put forth some effort. You do want the truth right? Prove it.

Read both sides. Talk to both sides. Not just mine. Not just theirs. Make up your own mind.

Here’s a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. The vast majority of the issues brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ I have found but here’s more.

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

[MHGinTN]

Wow, is this the taqiyya side of Mormonism writ large at FR? ... You have missed Delphi User poopooing the Trinity at FR, eh? Your zeal is noted, but sad to say you're either ignorant of the facts or deceiving readers.

Consider yourself ping, DU.

[MHGinTN]

Would you call it propaganda for me to cite that your prophet Smith added more than eight hundred words to the end of the Book of Genesis in order to create a prophecy of his advent in these latter days? [See the Joseph Smith Translation ... of the King James Bible, into King James English btw.]

[ansel12]

Is it true that you guys become a God, or even, GOD?

Do female Mormons do that too?

[paulist]

“why would anyone assume that more is needed to be saved?”

John 3:36 - “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Luke 14:26-27 - “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sister, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.”

Luke 14:33 - “So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.”

What does it mean to believe? Is “belief” simply mouthing some words, or is it something more?

[CynicalBear]

>>What does it mean to believe? Is “belief” simply mouthing some words, or is it something more?<<
How can you even ask if it’s just “mouthing the words”? The Bible also says “and believes in his heart”. Can you see someone’s heart? I certainly can’t.
When a person proclaims that he/she believes in a triune God, and proclaims that his/her salvation is through Jesus, how can I see that person’s heart? It’s the Spirit of God that draws a person to make a confession like that. If God has drawn that person to Him and the Spirit is now working in that persons heart I cannot know for sure. I must leave it to the Spirit of God to know and trust in that.
“Obey the Son”? If you mean by that that we are to trust him completely and give ourselves over to the “leading of the Spirit”, then we have obeyed the Son. If you mean that we are to somehow “work” to earn our salvation from that point on, I would suggest that you are in error because the Bible cautions us over and over about “lest we should boast” works.
If a person states that he/she has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior, I will leave the knowledge of what is in that persons heart to the Spirit of God to determine. I will not presume to know more then the Holy Spirit.

[caww]

I’d like to know their answer to these as well and what scripture they base this......

Is it true that you guys become a God, or even, GOD?

Do female Mormons do that too?

[caww]

The heart is deceptive.....it will deceive us...which is why God gave us the scriptures as the final authority...if ones beliefs contradict or deny His revealed word it can be clearly tested by His word. Mormonism does not alighn with the truths of the word of God...like most counterfeits it “borrows” language to attract and hold it’s memebership.

Fora nay who are in the Mormon church who sincerely and truly desire to know the truth before God...generally over time they come away from Mormonism because the truths of what they believe and practice do not line up with Gods word....rather with their counterfeit and imposter Prophet Joseph Smith and his imposter Christ...and the false teachings of the bom.

[CynicalBear]

>>which is why God gave us the scriptures as the final authority<<

Final authority you say!

One Church says the Bible tell us to pray to or through Jesus mother.
Another Church tells us the Bible says to do that is wrong.

One Church says that Jesus alone is our Salvation
Another Church tells us that works are also needed.

I could go on and on, but my point is that all use the Bible as the “final authority”.

Which interpretation would you suggest is the “final authority”?

[ansel12]

Is it true that you guys become a God, or even, GOD? Do female Mormons do that too?

Paragon Defender is here to answer our questions openly and without guile, so we will know shorty.

[caww]

Is it true that you guys (Mormons) become a God, or even, GOD? Do female Mormons do that too?

It is such an important question which needs to be clarified by those of the Mormon faith.....do they believe this? I look forward to their answers.

[caww]

The facts are then someone is wrong in how they are ‘applying’ the scriptures as scripture is of no private interpetation.

An example would be..it is written “and Judus went and hung himself, thou do likewise”...few would follow those words without first determining the context written...otherwise that is popcorn scripture reading and application one uses to support their opinions or agendas etc. More often than not scripture is approached to support ones beliefs rather than being approached to determine ones beliefs.

[Saundra Duffy]

Harry Reid is a MINO (Mormon In Name Only). Ted Kennedy used to brag about Reid being “pro life” so I did some research and discovered that Reid is pro life only about half the time; therefore, he is pro abortion the other half of the time. Democrats grasping at straws for support from pro life folks.

The Mormons I know - to the one - are pro family, pro life, and conservative. We are also in love with our Savior, Jesus Christ, who suffered and died to save us from our sins. We are grateful to our Heavenly Father for His Plan of Salvation. And the Holy Ghost seals this in our hearts.

The game is over; Jesus Christ is Lord. Amen.

[Saundra Duffy]

When I was baptized (LDS), the words spoken were: “In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” Followed by a full dunk.

The word “trinity” does not appear anywhere in the Bible but rather is a man-made concept.