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Predestination... or doctrine of Beelzebub
2010 | bibletruth

Posted on 09/08/2010 10:35:01 PM PDT by bibletruth

Predestination...is it Biblical... or is it a doctrine of Beelzebub (devil)


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: correctdoctrine; doctrine; predestination
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Predestination...is it Biblical... or is it a doctrine of Beelzebub (devil).

It is evident that some shun from predestination, some even lay it at the hands of Beelzebub (devil). There are Scripture in the Gospels and also from the Words of God (Christ being The Word) that illuminate this subject. Let's first look at God's Word (ie, Jesus Christ being The Word) in Ephesians 1:4-5; 11

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Now if Almighty God and The Word of God, Christ Jesus, has: hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Is this Word of God superceded by the the Gospels? The same Word of God authored both the Gospels and Romans thru Revelation! God's counsel and will are not limited to only the Gospel; God is not limited by anything regarding HIS counsel and will.

How then can it be said that this doctrine of predestination be called a horrible distortion of the Gospel. Is that what we accuse God of? God forbid!

If we ONLY APPLY doctrine from the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), then we must be measured by what Jesus said in the flesh. In the Gospels we find that there is no mention regarding the Words of Christ using "predestination". But Jesus did say: ask, seek, find, knock...

Therefore: Is Christ's words only valid in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John? Is not Paul a minister of Christ? We must be careful what we deny as Christ's Words. No matter where Christ, The Word of God, said something to believer, it remains the Word of God, equal no matter where it is said.

Furthermore, based upon the Gospels account ALONE and NO OTHER DOCTRINE, if we believe that "predestination" does not exist because Jesus Christ never spoke about it in the Gospels; then that position we hold must align together with our life walk together with the Gospels account when someone disagreed on something Christ said; and doing this we then say as do the Pharisees said in Matthew 12:24:

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Now how is this possible to say as did the Pharisees, that Christ has a Beelzebub devil? This happens when someone orders their life by the Gospels ALONE; rather than incorporate all the doctrines which Christ Jesus, The Word of God, spoke and communicated to other apostles other than the original 12 [And Paul was not one of the 12, he could not qualify as one of the 12; more on that in another post].

Jesus Christ communicated doctrine regarding "predestination" to the Apostle Paul; and if someone shall deny this fact, then Jesus Christ knows your thoughts if you adhere to "predestination" as a doctrine of devils:

Therefore, you must live by the Gospels: Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

Therefore, anyone who denies Christ Words in Acts - Revelation, especially Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will; these same shall have their kingdom divided against itself and brought to desolatation...[warning] a city or house divided against itself shall not stand. If you stand by your Gospels ALONE, then you must stand by those things Christ says in the Gospels; and what you and the Pharisees both have laid claim to Christ Jesus: that HE has a devil, even Beelzebub!

If anyone persists that the doctrine of Pre-destination is truly of the Devil....and that it totally discounts all of those commands of Christ. Then I ask: Is the Word of Christ / Word of God ONLY found inside the Gospels alone, and not in Acts thru Revelation; Genesis thru Malachi?.

I ask: Are we only to live in the flesh by following Jesus in the flesh and only via the Gospels? What is the result of following Jesus in the flesh?

Jesus said in Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You see, Christ said: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If someone tries to follow Christ in the flesh, then he must be a Jewish follower, not a Christian believer today.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3:1 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh (Christ in the flesh as only found in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)?

God dealing with men today is not limited to the flesh, observing all things that Christ spoke about to the 12 apostles.

God does not instruct us ONLY in the following the Gospels; for why else does HIS Son, Christ Jesus, communicate to other apostles and men of God throughout Romans to Revelation.

We cannot be made perfect by the flesh [and Law], that is, following Christ Jesus in the flesh of HIS earthly ministry! Christ said: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That was HIS purpose in the Gospels.

1 posted on 09/08/2010 10:35:04 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

I don’t understand the argument you are attacking, that “predestination” is considered “of Satan” by some. I’ve never heard Christians say such things, regardless of their take on predestination. You have a straw man, there.

However, I do not believe that simply because God predestined His People to come to Him, that it means God doesn’t Will all to follow Him.

Not even God gets everything He wants. Since he can control everything by choice, this is also His choice. So there is Free Will here, as well.


2 posted on 09/08/2010 10:52:31 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: bibletruth

Please excuse my ignorance. This issue has always confused me. What is your opinion re: Augustinian philosophy?


3 posted on 09/08/2010 10:59:32 PM PDT by Silentgypsy
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To: ConservativeMind

Thats some answer.


4 posted on 09/08/2010 11:09:05 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: ConservativeMind
Arminianism free will...God does not get everything He wants...

Boy, you surely have a small God (one who does not get everything He wants...). If God does not get everything He wants, that is a pithy kind of god that is NOT an Almighty GOD!

Contrast that with what GOD Almighty said to Isaiah:

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Now that demonstrates a God, my God, who can proper in anything where to HE sends it. That is not a small god with unattainable things...

Unconditional election is the accurate doctrine that is evident that God's choice from eternity (predestination) of those whom HE will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people, no "free will"; therefore, GOD DOES get everything that HE wants. Because of HIS WILL nobody can resist, and it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy and grace alone, not on man's effort to show God how good we are and deserving we are to be saved (free will approach). The approach give man a upper hand in instructing God to choose him.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

5 posted on 09/08/2010 11:21:49 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: johngrace

yeah, and his answer is false doctrine that God cannot always get things He wants...


6 posted on 09/08/2010 11:23:20 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: ConservativeMind
The reason I wrote this thread is because someone on another thread replied to me and said:

The doctrine of pre-destination is a horrible distortion of the Gospel. [Quote from a fool]

That person is NOT a Christian, for he/she was in effect saying to the Glorified Christ Jesus that there is not such thing as "predestination". That was foolish; so I showed Scripture evidence in Ephesians 1 to show that Christ communicated to Paul regarding predestination.

This is not a straw man argument; there is a real fool on this religious thread that believes that predestination is of the devil (which is exactly what the Pharisees falsely accused Christ as having...Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

So since I am In Christ, and Christ and the GodHead all dwell in my soul; this person was laying false claim that the doctrine of predestination is of the Beelzebub (devil). Therefore, I am setting the Biblical record straight.

7 posted on 09/08/2010 11:34:23 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: Silentgypsy

Augustinian philosophy... my theology is rightly dividing the Word of Truth. I read many theologies, and I learn valuable lessons from many, but I do not hold only to Augustinian theology...I do not hold to free will since there are many scripture evidence to show that God is in complete control in all events on earth and heaven, and that we as believers are called to HIS glory, not by any works of which I can perform. Otherwise, it is not fully of HIS glory and mercy, if I should perform some good work which God sees in eternity past and then says to Himself: that man deserves to be saved, I will call him. That is false, I have no part in my grace salvation except that I responded to the free grace of God’s salvation message once long ago. And I believed. And I am save by grace, not of works, least any man should boast. I only boast in the cross of Christ, and Him crucified.


8 posted on 09/08/2010 11:44:26 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

Did God want Lucifer to fall? Really, he gave us free will so that we might delight in His Countenance. He allowed Lucifer to maek the decisions that led to his fall.


9 posted on 09/09/2010 12:12:49 AM PDT by Hoosier-Daddy ( "It does no good to be a super power if you have to worry what the neighbors think." BuffaloJack)
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To: bibletruth

There is an easier logic for some to follow regarding ‘predestination’.

The question is how can we be predestined to any outcome if God gave us free will?

Would not our ability to exercise free will to make a choice and then change our minds multiple times preclude the possibility of ‘predestination’?

The answer lies in the nature of God (as far as our limited understanding can comprehend).

1. God is eternal.
2. God is omnipotent (all powerful).
3. God is omniscient (all knowing).

Therefore:

God, being omniscient, has perfect knowledge of the past, present, and future. God knows what choices we have made, are making, and will make - no matter how many times we change our mind and choose differently which God freely allows us to do.

And since God is also omnipotent, He sometimes creates conditions and circumstances for some to make choices that he knows they will make which accomplishes His will. He already knows who will choose to do His will and thus sets forth those conditions and circumstances for them to do so.

Thus, to deny ‘predestination’ is illogical.

To deny that we have ‘free will’ is also illogical.

To deny that we have ‘free will’ is to believe that God “preselected” those that would accept Him and those that would reject Him.

In other words, it would be like someone playing a game of chess against himself, moving each chess-piece on one side and then the other. For us, such an exercise can be instructional and a way to improve our skills.

But there is no need for this for a God that is both omnipotent and omniscient. It would be totally boring and senseless.

It would also mean that ‘Satan’ is nothing more than a chess-piece that can do nothing other than what God directs him to do.

And, it would mean that we can not choose God over Satan or vice-versa, since that choice would have already been made for us.

I admit that the purpose or reason for such “preselection” may be beyond our limited comprehension, but then the question remains ‘why?’


10 posted on 09/09/2010 12:34:35 AM PDT by RebelTex (FREEDOM IS EVERYONE'S RIGHT! AND EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY!)
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To: RebelTex

Great points. Here’s my take on this subject.

GOD, who knows the end from the beginning, saw before the world existed every humanbeing that would ever live.

HE saw who would choose to love HIM and who would reject HIM. HE saw the pain that HE would have over those who rejected HIM, but also saw the Love HE would have from those who would choose to love HIM and decided to go ahead with HIS plan fully knowing that HE would have to bear our sins and pay our debt to make us whole again. HE loves us that much.

We still have the freedom to choose who we will serve, but GOD knows the full number of the Gentile believers and Jewish believers of all the covenants from Adam to whoever is the last human that will ever live. So HE is patient with us, not wanting any to perish, but wanting all to repent, but the time is getting short, very short.


11 posted on 09/09/2010 1:10:21 AM PDT by coincheck (Vote 'em all out!!)
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To: bibletruth

You know Augustine asserted the existence of free will right? He even called those who deny free will “in error”:

Read his letters to Valentius:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102214.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102215.htm


12 posted on 09/09/2010 3:41:21 AM PDT by Claud
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To: bibletruth

Suppose a mom has her 3 year old daughter help her bake cookies. Does that imply any loss of the mother’s sovereignty? Any loss of the mother’s parental authority? Can we say that the mother is not getting what she wants? Can we say the mother isn’t in control of the process from the very start?

Does the daughter not have the option of participating joyfully and creatively, or throwing a tantrum and flinging cookie dough all over the kitchen?

God IS completely sovereign, but He is not a robotic God who decides first, sets up the chess pieces, and then lets automatons run their course. He is a kind, loving Father who wants us to participate in our redemption—even while He remains completely in control of it.


13 posted on 09/09/2010 4:01:27 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud

The reaction against God being in control is negative predestination . . . some people are going to hell and it’s been predestined from the beginning of time. How is that just? Only if man chooses. Those that believe in predestination don’t deny man’s sinful choices however! I’ll leave it there, otherwise I’ll miss work trying to reinvent the theological wheel.


14 posted on 09/09/2010 4:24:41 AM PDT by November 2010
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To: bibletruth

Just FYI, in typical usage, Beelzebub is regarded as one of the three top demons, along with Lucifer and Leviathan, but generally not thought of as the same entity as Lucifer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub

As an aside, Lucifer’s name is roughly translated as “Light-Bearer”, which is different from Obama, the latter calling himself the “Light Bringer”, which I’m sure is completely different. No hyphen, at least.


15 posted on 09/09/2010 4:42:40 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: bibletruth

Predestination is a Biblical doctrine, but there are many who have philosophized by rational argument regarding predestination and have strayed from Scripture and sound Bible doctrine.

For example, the doctrine of double predestination is not Scriptural. One can make valid arguments for it and valid arguments against it, but Scripture never goes so far as to discuss it.

IMHO, it is easy to stray out of fellowship with God through faith in Christ, even in studying theology, then the Adversary may tempt one with false doctrines.


16 posted on 09/09/2010 4:59:48 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: RebelTex
That is 100% in accord with Catholic doctrine, which is the way all Catholics have to believe, or they are not Catholics, but inventors of errors, like the author of this thread, and everyone elses giving their one man religion opinions.

You should have given the credit to the Catholic Church, so that the people would know it was not a one man opinion, even if you are not a Catholic.

17 posted on 09/09/2010 5:16:02 AM PDT by verdugo
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To: bibletruth

Predestination is most certainly referenced in the Gospels, from the mouth of Jesus.


18 posted on 09/09/2010 5:18:26 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: verdugo

Thomist and Molonist. There is no 100% on this issue for a Catholic since the church allows adherents to have either view.


19 posted on 09/09/2010 5:29:16 AM PDT by November 2010
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To: bibletruth

Are you saying God does not want EVERYONE to follow Him? Scripture does not support you, if so.

If God only wants a small portion of humanity to ever respect Him, you have a sick god.


20 posted on 09/09/2010 5:55:37 AM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: coincheck
For all that think Free Will is the demonstration of how God chooses in His mercy, read Romans 9:

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Did you read that! Is is not of him (man) that wills: self will. It is not of him (man) that runs. BUT of God what sheweith mercy.

People, what is mercy? If I perform some act of goodness by free will, then let's say, God chooses me; then my goodness has caused God, in eternity past, to choose me; this choice is not out of mercy! Mercy indicates that I did not deserve it. Oh but you'll say: well, you had other things you performed that were evil. Yes, In Adam, I was a sinner. But me performing some goodness does not constitute pure mercy on God's part: for if God chooses everyone who performed some act of goodness; then God has chosen based upon man that wills and man that runs to perform good works so that God will certainly make a good choose. Let's go back to Romans to see how this works:

Romans 9:20 Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God is willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endures the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. And made known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

Hath not the potter [God] power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Who is making he clay? Who is making one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? If God, which He had afore (before) prepared unto glory, those vessels of mercy: how then does a man's free will participate in his choosing? God answers you thus: Romans 9:20 Shall the thing formed say to HIM THAT FORMED IT, Why hast thou made me thus?

If man can thus participate in his choosing, as the vessel of mercy, then man has participated in his [clay] forming, and if this is true [according to free will, it is], then we, as free willist, will find a problem with Scripture in Romans 9:15 I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Free will, then, makes these scripture verses a lie: making God a liar.

21 posted on 09/09/2010 7:33:21 AM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

Does God have priorities? Or is everything held in the same importance?


22 posted on 09/09/2010 7:37:35 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ConservativeMind
Quote: "Are you saying God does not want EVERYONE to follow Him? Scripture does not support you, if so. If God only wants a small portion of humanity to ever respect Him, you have a sick god".

"Sick god", you say

Romans 9:20 Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Those verses, do support that God does not call EVERYONE to follow Him.

When you refer to God as sick, you are operating In Adam

23 posted on 09/09/2010 7:42:29 AM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth
No, they don't.

Also, Titus 2 clearly indicates that all men have been called.

24 posted on 09/09/2010 7:49:01 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Claud
So are we all to assume that Augustine is right? And God is wrong? Quote: "You know Augustine asserted the existence of free will right? He even called those who deny free will in error:

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

25 posted on 09/09/2010 7:51:31 AM PDT by bibletruth
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To: ShadowAce
And 2 Timothy 1:9 writes: Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

And Romans 9 writes:

Romans 9:20 Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Not ALL are vessels of mercy; some are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

These are God's Words, not mine.

26 posted on 09/09/2010 8:03:25 AM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth
That does not limit the calling--Titus 2 still holds.

And Romans 9 does not mean what you think means. Read it in context.

27 posted on 09/09/2010 8:07:08 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce
That does not limit the calling--Titus 2 still holds.

This comment was directed towards the 2 Timothy passage.

28 posted on 09/09/2010 8:07:59 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce

Of course, all men have been “called”. Many are called, but few are chosen. It’s not contradictory evidence.

All men are justly sentenced to eternal damnation. Only those whom God chooses are spared their earned punishment. No man can understand or accept God without God’s enlightenment bestowed upon those he has chosen.

God hardened men’s hearts — if we are to believe the Bible. The phrase is meaningless if you interpret it to mean “God made men’s hearts to be what they would have been anyway”.

I find the discussion in this thread much more antagonistic than is necessary or helpful.


29 posted on 09/09/2010 8:09:55 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Only those whom God chooses are spared their earned punishment.

So you believe that an infinitely merciful and just God created independent, conscious, and responsible souls merely for the sole purpose of throwing them into Hell--through no ability of their own to repent?

How is that either merciful or just? It is contrary to the very nature of God.

Note: I am not denying we deserve punishment

30 posted on 09/09/2010 8:16:45 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce
So you believe that an infinitely merciful and just God created independent, conscious, and responsible souls merely for the sole purpose of throwing them into Hell--through no ability of their own to repent?

Yes, that is what I believe scriptures teach.

It also makes sense to me, logically, from historical biblical evidence.

On the other hand, effectually it comes out no diffently than if you choose to believe that we all had a choice, but that God already knew our choices before the foundation of the world, and only picked to be saved those who he knew would choose him.

In either case, within our timeline, God saves those he has "chosen", and we come to saving Knowledge through his spirit bestowed upon his children.

What I have a bigger problem with is those who believe that Jesus actually died for, and offered payment to God for, every sin committed by every human who ever walked the earth, but that many make that sacrifice ineffectual by not accepting it.

I find no scriptual basis to suggest that any human agent could ever render ineffectual Jesus' perfect sacrifice -- so I think it makes much more sense that Jesus died ONLY for the sins of those who God predestined to be saved (however it is that you think he made His choice).

31 posted on 09/09/2010 8:44:14 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: bibletruth
So are we all to assume that Augustine is right? And God is wrong?

Except this is not a debate between Augustine and God, this is a debate between Augustine and *Calvin*.

God is always right. But people can be wrong. So who is more likely to be wrong here? Calvin and his handful of adherents? Or Augustine, who has the vast, vast majority of Christianity over 2000 years (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) to back him up?

Predestination is a complicated and difficult topic. We can differ about it to some degree. But the denial of free will is pure heresy and no Christian should hold it.

32 posted on 09/09/2010 8:48:12 AM PDT by Claud
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To: CharlesWayneCT
On the other hand, effectually it comes out no diffently than if you choose to believe that we all had a choice, but that God already knew our choices before the foundation of the world, and only picked to be saved those who he knew would choose him.

I disagree here. God doesn't make our choices for us. We choose whether we want to be with Him for all eternity--or without Him for all eternity. He then grants that wish, and lets us suffer the consequences of a bad choice.

I find no scriptual basis to suggest that any human agent could ever render ineffectual Jesus' perfect sacrifice -- so I think it makes much more sense that Jesus died ONLY for the sins of those who God predestined to be saved (however it is that you think he made His choice).

John 3:16 actually gives that basis. "Whosoever will" believe in Him should not perish, also implies that whosoever will not--will perish.

God provided the means. We must provide the will. We make the choice--God gave us that responsibility. If it were as you believe, then everyone in the world is living within God's will--thus no one sins. If no one sins, then everyone is entitled to heaven.

Since we both agree that there is sin in this world, then I think we can both agree that no one is entitled to be saved. Which means we are living outside of His will.

33 posted on 09/09/2010 8:54:22 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: verdugo

“You should have given the credit to the Catholic Church, so that the people would know it was not a one man opinion, even if you are not a Catholic.”

I’m sorry. I didn’t know that ‘predestination’ is part of Catholic doctrine. I presumed it to be mostly a Presbyterian thing.

Sign on the back of an 18 wheeler:
Predestined Presbyterians -————>
<-———— All others


34 posted on 09/09/2010 9:08:06 AM PDT by RebelTex (FREEDOM IS EVERYONE'S RIGHT! AND EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY!)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
I find no scriptual basis to suggest that any human agent could ever render ineffectual Jesus' perfect sacrifice

Your basic premise is right, but perhaps you are looking at "ineffectual" from a human, earthly perspective rather than a divine one.

If I am damned, can we say His sacrifice is ineffective because I am not saved? I don't think so. It is still perfectly effective because it was an act of perfect love that would have redeemed me had I lived up to it.

It is like calling a 9-11 firefighter ineffectual because he never pulled anyone out of the WTC. The sacrifice still stands. The heroic charity is still evident. In the economy of love (which I think is as close to God's view of things as we get), it's actually quite immaterial whether he pulled anyone out or not.

Just a thought. Predestination is not a strong suit of mine.

35 posted on 09/09/2010 9:13:48 AM PDT by Claud
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To: coincheck

Thanks.

Without free will, our lives would have no point and be meaningless.

God knows every choice and decision we will make and gives us the freedom to choose. He also provides us with plenty of evidence of His majesty and glory so that we may choose wisely, if we only have eyes to see and ears to hear.


36 posted on 09/09/2010 9:19:45 AM PDT by RebelTex (FREEDOM IS EVERYONE'S RIGHT! AND EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY!)
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To: RebelTex

Presbyterians (are Calvinists right?) believe they can know who is already predestined, don’t they. The Catholic Church teaches that no one knows who is predestined.


37 posted on 09/09/2010 9:32:28 AM PDT by verdugo
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To: Claud
It is like calling a 9-11 firefighter ineffectual because he never pulled anyone out of the WTC.

But he WAS ineffectual. We don't question his heart, or his character, but that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge that his efforts failed to produce results.

I don't see how any human could snatch themselves out of the hands of God. Nor how any human could render a sacrifice which PAID for their sins ineffectual. If a man walks into court and pays your fine, you are out of jail, whether you "accept the help" or not. But if you COULD reject the money, then the money would never have been GIVEN, and the attempt would have been a failure.

Since the act of sacrifice of Jesus was a perfect sacrifice for the sin, how could any sin still have any punishment left to be rendered, for which Jesus had already paid?

This plays into an argument about the surety of salvation as well. If one COULD snatch oneself out of the hands of God, it would have to be because God allows it. But if God only chooses those whom he knows will accept his choice, why would he put anybody "in his hand" who He knows would later reject salvation?

Sorry, I guess I'm falling into the trap of adding new parts to the discussion, which might well get us off track.

38 posted on 09/09/2010 9:47:37 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

bttt


39 posted on 09/09/2010 9:49:13 AM PDT by ConservativeMan55
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To: RebelTex
I've often argued that without a soul, we cannot possibly have "free will". Because if our bodies are only the physical existance of our cells and the charges and connections within the brain that exist at any moment, those physical features would completely define how we would respond to any particular stimulus.

And while we cannot practically do so, theoretically any physical characteristics and charges and connections COULD be fully modelled in a computer, and that computer used to gauge the reaction we would have to any stimulus, thus giving us a complete foreknowledge of action -- and disproving the concept of fre will.

You can only have free will if, given the exact same physical state and exact same input, you have the ability to rationally pick to act in multiple ways. So free will requires something outside the physical makeup of your being. Note that random chance could make it impossible to predict with certainty a response, but would still not provide "free will", since a random choice is not a "willed choice".

Whether we are chosen or not, whether God controls every tiny aspect of everything or not, from our point of view as finite, stuck-in-time creatures, we have free will. It may be an illusion, but to us it is real, and indistinguishable.

Free will outside of time is already impossible if you grant God the charactistic of Omniscience. Once I know exactly what you are going to do next, free will has no meaning. So in my opinion, any discussion of "free will" must be in regards to the point of view of one living within the confines of time and space, such as we do.

40 posted on 09/09/2010 9:56:17 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

“I’ve often argued that without a soul, we cannot possibly have “free will”. “

“...any discussion of “free will” must be in regards to the point of view of one living within the confines of time and space, such as we do.”

Agreed.

See my post # 10 wherein I my first point was that “God is eternal.”
I should have expanded on that to state that since God is the Creator and created all that is, including time, then God exists outside of what we consider to be ‘time’. I assumed that my third point that “God is omniscient (all knowing).” and explanation that He would have ‘perfect knowledge of the past, present and future’ would, together with the first point, be sufficient to indicate that God exists outside of what we consider to be ‘time’.

Mea Culpa. Sometimes I do not explain my thoughts well enough.


41 posted on 09/09/2010 10:27:32 AM PDT by RebelTex (FREEDOM IS EVERYONE'S RIGHT! AND EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY!)
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To: verdugo

“Presbyterians (are Calvinists right?)”

Correct.

“Presbyterians... ...believe they can know who is already predestined, don’t they.

I’ve never seen that position stated in any Presbyterian Church of which I have been a member or attended, and I have been a member for over 55 years. However, there are several groups of Presbyterian denominations which have some different views on a number of theological issues, so that may be a viewpoint of one of them.

I would seriously question how anyone (other than God) can know “who is already predestined” and know the result of such predestination. However, saying that ‘everyone’ is predestined, but only God knows the result of said predestination, is not the same thing.


42 posted on 09/09/2010 10:47:08 AM PDT by RebelTex (FREEDOM IS EVERYONE'S RIGHT! AND EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY!)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
But he WAS ineffectual. We don't question his heart, or his character, but that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge that his efforts failed to produce results.

Ineffectual, again, from a very limited and I'd argue cosmically insignificant perspective: the perspective of the world.

By Christ's criteria ("greater love no man hath"), the firefighter made an act of perfect love--thus he was perfectly successful in his endeavor, if we have the eyes of heaven.

43 posted on 09/09/2010 11:19:06 AM PDT by Claud
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To: bibletruth
"For all that think Free Will is the demonstration of how God chooses in His mercy, read Romans 9:

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. "

"Free Will" is NOT "the demonstration of how God chooses in His mercy"; ie. it has nothing to do with "how God chooses in His mercy" and we can not "will" God to choose us. "Free Will" is God's gift to us, which allows us to freely choose to obey, disobey, heed, or ignore, (and which he already knows how we will choose).

"Free will, then, makes these scripture verses a lie: making God a liar.."

I believe that your reasoning is flawed, because it appears that you have "defined" man's "Free Will" as forcing a decision or choice upon God, thereby limiting God's own "Free Will".

I'm pretty sure that this definition does not exist anywhere in any Christian teachings or theology, nor in the Holy Bible. (I may be wrong - I have been, before, LOL.)

44 posted on 09/09/2010 11:43:25 AM PDT by RebelTex (FREEDOM IS EVERYONE'S RIGHT! AND EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY!)
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To: CharlesWayneCT; Claud
I don't see how any human could snatch themselves out of the hands of God.

How can “apostasy” occur without having been in Christ?

45 posted on 09/09/2010 4:37:34 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: RebelTex
I admit that the purpose or reason for such “preselection” may be beyond our limited comprehension, but then the question remains ‘why?’

The reason for "preselection" (and, its opposite, "predamnation" if you will) is the same reason for any of God's actions: the glorification of Himself. The fact that we may not understand how predestining someone to hell will Glorify Him is irrelevant. I admit, it takes a "big" view of God to swallow this. I have unbelieving family and friends that I love very much. I love God more. I have to trust Him that, if they are predestined to damnation, it is because it will glorify Him. I will praise Him for it.
46 posted on 09/09/2010 6:39:38 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: johngrace; reaganaut

woo — I just came across this thread — it’s a doozy...


47 posted on 07/29/2011 12:16:06 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos

I forgot about this one thread. Dozy!! Yes!!! Lol!!


48 posted on 07/29/2011 1:11:06 AM PDT by johngrace
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To: ConservativeMind
I don’t understand the argument you are attacking, that “predestination” is considered “of Satan” by some.

I'll posit an unsolicited opinion here: there are degrees of predestinationalist thought and it is the 'third degree' which would be Satanic. This is a level of commitment to the idea which requires that belief in predestination, itself, be the saving condition.

I would call the purely academic consideration of predestination the 'first degree'. This agnostic attitude about the subject requires nothing of the believer beyond the the universal minimum. The 'second degree' would describe those who sincerely believe in predestinatinalism without making that belief a requirement.

But the 'third degree' is occupied by people who have made the certitude of predestinationalism itself the saving grace, at the expense of the original condition. These people will hold that those who believe according to the original condition, but who believe that they do so by choice, are nevertheless not saved. For those in the third degree, the original narrative is just some packaging, a wrapper or a candy-coating of some sort for the real saving truth. Of course, their "truth" is somehow both circular (predestined to be predestined) and contradictory (predestined to choose to believe in the inability to choose to believe). It's practically Satanic because it blames the Creator for everything and turns all sinners into his victims. It's essentially Satanic because, in a fit of overweening pride, proponents believe that they have wrapped their minds around the true nature of the Omnipotent and trapped him in a logical snare. It is efficiently Satanic because it lies to itself.

Consider that you'll never meet a predestinationalist who thinks but that his own salvation is predestined and that the salvation of all others depends upon their agreement with that.

49 posted on 07/29/2011 3:06:08 AM PDT by Brass Lamp
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To: RebelTex
Have you studied formal logic in an academic environment? If you have, you would be the first predestinationalist I have ever encountered who has.

Take a step back and look at the foundational illogic of the message of predestination. You are trying to convince people that there's no convincing people and that they should choose to believe that they can't choose to believe. Besides, what is the point in arguing about a purely mechanical universe when there is no room for argument in a purely mechanical universe.

As for omnipotence (can do all), here's something my Omnipotent can do; offer a choice. You seem to deny that yours can.

50 posted on 07/29/2011 3:25:51 AM PDT by Brass Lamp
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